I'm gonna bottom line this whole immigration thing

[GT40FIED]

The more I think about it, the more people talking about this issue pisses me off. To even discuss it in a mildly positive manner is to lend it an undeserved legitimacy. So I've decided to go over some myths and facts...prepare to have your face rocked off with an infallible argument.

MYTH: Illegals do jobs Americans won't take.

FACT: There isn't a job that an American won't take so long as it is capable of sustaining them. The problem is that many of these jobs seen as "immigrant" jobs cannot be had by the working poor because illegals have low-balled the wages of these jobs to the point where Americans can't survive with said jobs. Illegals can because, more often than not, they stack a dozen people into a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment. Rent's not so hard to make when you live in a shithole and divide rent by 12.

MYTH: Most immigrants come here because they want to be citizens

FACT: Right...that's why they keep citizenship to their home country (whether it be Mexico, Central America, or elsewhere). Look...when the first thing you do when stepping into a country is illegal you're off to a bad start. Once you've shown a disregard for laws by your mere prescence, what's to keep you from disregarding any and all other laws without fear of reprisal? I suppose some blame goes to Mexican schools and government for teaching students that America stole California and, if they hadn't, Mexico would be a superpower when gold was discovered. Did I mention that Mexico invited German and Soviet intelligence to spy on the U.S. during WWII and the Cold War respectively. I'm pretty sure I did.

MYTH: This is an immigrant nation

FACT: Ok...you know what? By that notion EVERY country on this planet (save a small handful) is an "immigrant nation". Yeah...people came here from Europe 400 or so years ago, but there are now 280 million native-born U.S. citizens. Since they're native-born, they cease to be an immigrant. There are almost no places in this world that have always been inhabited by people, so to be settled and become a country people would have had to immigrate (or emmigrate).

MYTH: The United States is hostile towards immigrants

FACT: Ok...I'll preface this by saying there will always be some backwards assholes who oppose any and all immigration. When I was in Germany I saw how some Germans downright hate Turkish folks (the Turks are basically the mexicans of Germany). That said, this country allows more immigrants (legally) into this country than all other countries on earth COMBINED. Most citizens with a modicum of common sense are accepting of the legal immigrants.

So there you have it. Well...a little of it at least. I could rip off Derek and say "discuss". Rather, I'll say "extrapolate" (which is really just a fancy of saying "discuss").

[IALuder]

i agree with most of what your saying.
plus they all shop at walmart. wtf!. did you know the worlds largest walmart is in mexico city??

[Wren57]

I agree with your general stance on immigration but disagree with a few points (who would've guessed?)

Mexicans DO take jobs that other people don't want. Until you work on some jobsites that I have don't call me wrong... wearing a fully protective bodysuit with a respirator in a 115 degree building with poor circulation while scraping asbestos-laden floor tile for 10-16 hours a day at $8/hour doesn't appeal to most people... but it DOES to Mexicans. That is simply supply/demand in the labor market. Nothing wrong with capitalism... unless you're socialist.

And no they don't come here for citizenship, they come here for work because their home country is so pathetic it can't fix itself so it allows and even encourages people leaving... the vast majority of them just want to better their lives and their family's lives, so don't make them out as common criminals although they've broken an immigration law. This comes back to the "is it OK to steal an apple if you are starving and poor" dilemna. I say so long as you work for that apple, then yes.

Look, I'm not saying let all the Mexicans come into America with their Spanish and pinatas and let them run the place, I just think it'd be wise to let as many in as want to be in, so long as they are documented, get a job within 2 weeks and hold it for at least 6 months or get deported. They should also have to learn SOME english and learn the general laws. This would force them to be productive members of society and they would be paying taxes. If they commited a crime while in America they should be deported and not allowed back in.

Rebuttle?

[AzCivic]

the reason such a shitty job pays so low is that illegals are there to work it at that wage. Get this, if there were no illegals willing to work for peanuts the company would have to pay a wage that would draw in workers. You could name just about any job then tack on a low wage to it and of course no one in their right mind would do it, they have bills to pay and perhaps they didn't spend 40k on an education to be paid 8$/hr managing in a huge business setting.

I don't care if they came here to pick at the trash at the dump, they came here ILLEGALLY! Which means they don't give a shit about this country. Yes their country is a shitbox, maybe rather then running from the problem they should fix it. Where would the U.S. be if all the workers who had shit ass working conditions, no rights, and made hardly anything way back in the day just acted like a pussy and ran to the nearest country?

[JDMFantasy2k]

[quote=GT40FIED
So there you have it. Well...a little of it at least. I could rip off Derek and say "discuss". Rather, I'll say "extrapolate" (which is really just a fancy of saying "discuss").[/QUOTE]

i use that word a lot

but yeah, i agree with everything, once again; steve for prez

[Wren57]

I don't see how you all can just say "I agree with him"... he hasn't SAID ANYTHING! There isn't any type of plan or idea in his entire post. I just reread his entire post and didn't find a single argument, but instead merely opinionated "truths" about "myths". I didn't even see once where he said anything about border patrol, enforcement, deportation, guest worker program or anything at all that could possibly resemble a plan, but ramblings instead. Ramblings do not an argument make.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Wren57

And no they don't come here for citizenship, they come here for work because their home country is so pathetic it can't fix itself so it allows and even encourages people leaving... the vast majority of them just want to better their lives and their family's lives, so don't make them out as common criminals although they've broken an immigration law. This comes back to the "is it OK to steal an apple if you are starving and poor" dilemna. I say so long as you work for that apple, then yes.

Ok...this part really gets me. There are 6 billion people in this world. Something like 1 billion of them get by on less than $1 per day. If wanting a better life is an excuse to illegally do whatever you want, then this country is fucked. Why not let those 1 billion people set up shop here? Sure, we'd be a third world nation overnight, but at least they'd have a chance at a better life. And what about people already here who want a better life? Hell...I'm sure Donald Trump wants a better life (I would if I were him...I'd at least wanna not be such a douche bag). No country on eartch can fix itself...it's up to the people of that country to use what they have to make it better. If you're too fucking lazy to do that...well...do whatever you want just stay the fuck out. Since when does wanting a better life for yourself give you carte blanche to fuck up someone else's chance for a better life?

As for your point that I didn't really make an argument, point well taken. On the topic of things like border patrol, deportation, etc., my response would be "what's the point?". You've got a few thousand border guards and many have caught the same people coming into this country so many times they might as well be on a first name basis (that is, if they actually give their real name). Current legal red tape and laws bind law enforcement from acting in any real way to do anything once an illegal is caught that it's almost like their job is for show and little else. As for guest worker programs...I think they should go down lists of people receiving federal aid (welfare, unemployment, etc.) and offer them the jobs first at a government mandated reasonable wage (nothing too lavish...just something that they could live on). If they decline, bring in foreign workers and then discontinue whatever federal aid that person is getting.

As for that list being full of "opinionated truths", I really don't see you debunking any of it. Pretty sure I included facts to back up most of it (that which cannot be backed up by fact is back up merely by common sense).

[AzCivic]

here's a simple plan: actually punish businesses who hire illegals with hefty fines (fines that could put them out of business if caught a few times) and use part of that money to offer rewards to people who rat out businesses w/ illegal workers. If illegals can't work here they'll probably stop coming here illegally.

[pdiggitydogg]

I think the business part plays a huge role in this also.
How many penalties were given out, to companies hiring illegals, in the past year? Like 3? Thats so wrong its not even funny...

[dabouncerx24]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

MYTH: The United States is hostile towards immigrants

FACT: Ok...I'll preface this by saying there will always be some backwards assholes who oppose any and all immigration. When I was in Germany I saw how some Germans downright hate Turkish folks (the Turks are basically the mexicans of Germany). That said, this country allows more immigrants (legally) into this country than all other countries on earth COMBINED. Most citizens with a modicum of common sense are accepting of the legal immigrants.

All I know is that the town part of Davis (Not the UC campus part) is full of conservative white people. Especially, and especially the 40 something year old white women...they give me and my friends that hateful look every time we walk around town. One time I was trying to get simple directions and one of them just shouted at me "I DON'T KNOW." Every time I see those fuckers looking at me like that, I just wanna stab their eyes out .

(Oh shit...I wasn't kidding around even tho I used that smiley..)

Yeah your right GT, no matter how people label America as the most diverse country in the world, or the most accepting, it can never be fully true. The situation here in conservative section of Davis (in my opinion) can be related to all states that voted for Bush. Is it even possible that some bastard trucker redneck in Montana won't hate us minorities (Asian, immigrants, whatever you wanna name it) just because of what we are.

[AzCivic]

conservatives in california, interesting

[dabouncerx24]

Well, even more interesting is you brought that up. It is exactly what we're going over in Political Science class right now, just because CA vote democratic doesn't mean that everyone here are liberals (it's only something like a 60-40 split between democrats and republicans).

[AzCivic]

duuuh, lol. I was only kidding. I used to live there for pete's sake.

[dabouncerx24]

well...it didn't really sound much like one for petes sake

"duuuh"..? not many people outside CA know that fact about CA...so becuz of that stereotype, your previous post didn't sound like a joke...sorry man (how am i supposed to know that u used to live here )
it's the same stereotype for Texas...I THINK that the R/D split is also 60/40 also (if memory serves correct), but a chunk of Texas is on the left...but see, I didn't know that before I took my poli sci class, I used to think that Texans were all extreme conservatives too

[ChrisCantSkate]

steve everything was an overgeneralization.... sure it might apply to over 50% or under.. but its deffinitally not 100%. the truth is we cannot keep people out. whats stopping someone from coming here on "vacation" then never leaving? nothing except they have to have a passport instead of sneaking in. we're never going to load 10,000 people up and ship them back to their country who are aleady living here.. just not gonna happen.

they do take jobs, but because we need to survive as an economy and society the jobs would be filled by americans. you cant say they do jobs that other americans wont do because if every worker was legitament and their employer had to compete then the wages would rise because your not going to pick fruit for 6.50/hr when you are just as qualified to make 6.50/hr sitting on your ass at a conveniece store or as another min. wage job. then the only way you can get someone to work in "the fields" would be to pay them a comprable wage to what the job requires. i was amazed at how much money a garbage worker makes here in orlando. starting at around 60k a year from one of the companys that the city contracts out to do the trash. now this is because we have essentially one man per truck, instead of 3 or 4 like i remeber from years ago(pay one man 60k instead of 4 25k, you save 40k). but still, its a unskilled job essentially with on the job training on how to use the truck(its got a robot arm type thing on it to pick up trash). its a job that since its city contracted it cant be shady. and since people wouldnt pick up trash for a low salery they got better jobs, so they figured out a way to get the service done, pay an american a comprable wage(i thought it was very high,but its an example) to the job they are doing and wa-la one of the "unwanted jobs" is filled.

we're always going to let people in, we might very strictly inforce our boarders, but heres the plan as i herd it: we are using military now, 10,000 troops is what i think i herd, then as technology can catch up and be installed we are going to drastically cut the number of troops but use cameras; infared and motion detection to monitor large areas instead of having a watch tower every 100yards with a spotlight or whatever the plan is with the troops. now that forces people to come through at checkpoints, where we can then decide who comes and who dosnt.

as for the US being hostile towrds immigrants, we're hostile towrds everyone. thats who we are as a nation and whoever has the finger pointed at them at that time, its "our" tradition to jump on the bandwagon. name me one instance where thats wrong.

i liked the idea i read a few posts up about giving people on welfare jobs before new illigal immegrants. now immegrants still pay taxes on their wages since they get illegal papers to seem like they can work. the owners of the business usually know and since they are low-ballin them they dont really ask questions since they are techniqually covered. these immegrants dont do their taxes since its all false papers and end up overpaying to the gov most the time in not getting a refund check.

we would grow much better if we just kept our job market competitive on all levels, when they can get away with not paying illegal workers what they deserve then we have no reason to try and better the situation to lower costs when they are acceptable now with the current situation