bush wants pakistan now

[GT40FIED]

No...it really is a muslim creation. But the idea was pretty much lost on modern muslims until the US stepped in to help Afghans fight off the Soviets in the 80s. It'd be a lot like reintroducing the idea of crusades to christians these days.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

No...it really is a muslim creation. But the idea was pretty much lost on modern muslims until the US stepped in to help Afghans fight off the Soviets in the 80s. It'd be a lot like reintroducing the idea of crusades to christians these days.

Actually you're wrong. I'm taking a course on terrorism as we speak and you're flat out wrong. There are no facts to what you speak of.

The Afgan's were just as much against the USSR as they were against the US. However they needed the US support to defend themselves. They were indeed a covient allie to the US as the US wanted to stop the spread of communism.

However when USSR collapsed and split into 15 countries, the militant forces needed to find a new focus. It was at this time they shifted their views to the US. The US served as a scape goat for all the things wrong in their society. With the vacum of the USSR being gone, and a collapsed economy people with nothing looked for something. The US is the supper power and the prime target to focus on when fighting the western ways. However even Muslims who are less radical then Islams are targets of hate and death. Jihad is a Koran teaching, (rough quote) "If they are not won over by the Koran, they will be taken by the sword" This is from Muhamad's own mouth and is used by Isamic militants when justifing their war. And Muhamad himself waged the first Jihad and is responsible for the conversation of many pagens. No where in either Jewish teachings or Christian teaches are you to convert through fear of death.

In contrast nowhere in the bible does it speak of waging war on non-believers. It however was a sad point in Christian history that religious power corupoted societies to act in less then Christian ways. However Christian armies twice stopped the spread of Islam into Europe, which would have completely changed history.

Further more, at the time Muslim/Islam spread from spain to asia, grew faster then any other religion in history. Things didnt really change until North America was discovered by a European. It was at this time the West advanced from owning 27% of the known world to 60%, and this was not done through religion. It was done through better navigators and military technology. After the West concored North America they created a space of tolerance, even for Muslims. It is in striking contrast to the history of Muslims/Islam; which for 14 centuries waged war without rest.

BTW Muslim/Islam - same book. Islams are more fundimental Muslims. Not unlike the term orthodox.

BTW #2 - I'd personally really like if it you could stop blaming US government for all that is wrong in the world. When compaired to soceities around the world, they are actually one of the most tolerant out there. Not perfect, this I am aware of; but not the reason for terrorism.

[GT40FIED]

You can personally like anything you want...doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

You know what's funny? Christians always like to talk about how the bible preaches love and tolerance and the Qu'Ran preaches violence and cruelty. When weighed in history, who do you think has killed more people in the name of conversion? Christians had all of the Crusades, both Inquisitions, etc. etc. etc. Muslims had...well...not much, really (with the exception of wars fought between other muslims).

And really...a class specifically in terrorism? Somehow I doubt any accredited university would teach such a class. I'm just saying, sounds a bit...questionable.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

You can personally like anything you want...doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

You know what's funny? Christians always like to talk about how the bible preaches love and tolerance and the Qu'Ran preaches violence and cruelty. When weighed in history, who do you think has killed more people in the name of conversion? Christians had all of the Crusades, both Inquisitions, etc. etc. etc. Muslims had...well...not much, really (with the exception of wars fought between other muslims).

And really...a class specifically in terrorism? Somehow I doubt any accredited university would teach such a class. I'm just saying, sounds a bit...questionable.

Which college do you attend?

It's a GE course called 'understanding terrorism' and just because your ignorant to the school system in Canada (which is ranked higher then the US school system) doesn't mean anything in this situation. Other then the fact your US education is failing to educate you. This course explores the history behind terrorism, the development of the term and how it has evolved over time to mean something different. It is both history/terrorism as the two are so closely related.

I already explained the issues with Christians in that area. It cannot be undo, we can only move forward. The major difference, and you have chosen to ignore it is the fact that after we have overcome RC rule of government we are accepting of other religions/views. Consider for a moment the environment in North American before you open your mouth in the future speaking untruths. Canada/US were founded on Christian values, and God is in both of our consititutions. We do no wish to remove Muslims from the face of the earth and seek to maintain a peaceful state. This however is not the same view of things as Islams

Steve - I am actually rather disappointed by your last few debates on this board. In both cases you've come off as misinformed and base your arguements on weak footings.

[GT40FIED]

A course in "understanding terrorism"? Really? What textbook do you use for the curriculum? Does it include Christian terrorists like McVeigh or all of the actions taken by the IRA or maybe even Sawney Bean? It seems a lot like you're focusing on Islam...which makes such a course meaningless and pointless (not to mention bigoted). What college do I attend? Pittsburg State University. Go ahead and look it up...www.pittstate.edu.

The US may have been founded by people with christian values, but that's a far cry to that the entire country was founded on christian values. What I know (that apparently you don't) is that the people who founded this country were human and not immune from fuck ups. Look at the beginning of the Declaration Of Independence for proof. "We the people blah blah blah...in order to form a more perfect union". That's right...this country was founded upon a grammatical fuck up. Things are either perfect or they aren't. There's no such thing as "more perfect". Even if the country as a whole adhered to christian values (and if you believe that, boy did you bet on the wrong horse), christianity like all other religions is just a pawn. Yes, it teaches tolerance and understanding...in theory, the same way islam does. However in the hands of humans with agendas it becomes something more. It becomes an excuse to do whatever you feel is necessary to please your god.

If we don't wish to rid the planet of muslims, we've got a funny way of proving it to them. Bush himself said that we'd take the fight to the streets of Baghdad. That's all fine and good if you're an American...but imagine you're an Iraqi. At this point you're going "what the fuck did we do to you?". The correct answer, of course, is "nothing". There's more torture going on in Iraq now than before we ousted Saddam (just ask the UN) and we've literally given up on 1/3 of the country (Anbar Province...although I doubt I spelled that right). We've killed 130,000 innocent civilians (not counting "insurgents") and we're tolerant of islam? It must be hard to type with your head so firmly planted up your ass.

[Violent Apathy]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

There's more torture going on in Iraq now than before we ousted Saddam (just ask the UN) and we've literally given up on 1/3 of the country (Anbar Province...although I doubt I spelled that right). We've killed 130,000 innocent civilians (not counting "insurgents") and we're tolerant of islam? It must be hard to type with your head so firmly planted up your ass.

Al Anbar is not nearly as lost as you think, or as the media may want you to think.