bush wants pakistan now

[ChrisCantSkate]

by pissing them off you mean telling them that if they hate us and want to attack us then we're gonna have issues? i mean i know bush should not have given an ultamatum like that, but he was also making a point that if you want to attack america then expect us to attack you back... he should have given that as an ultamatum and not what he actually said, because you know thats what he ment... is fiji with us.. not exactly, but they arnt with them. what about luxenburg or greenland. we arnt trying to divide this world into 2 groups, and i think most countries understand that, but if you hate us and wana cause us harm, we will cause you harm back

[GT40FIED]

There's one thing I don't understand...does anyone actually buy the whole "they hate us for our freedom" thing? If you think about it, it's pretty illogical. I mean...by showing they're willing to piss off the world's biggest superpower, they've already shown a proclivity towards violence. If they don't have a problem with violence and are jealous of freedom, they could save themselves a lot of hassle and just violently overthrow their own government and live however they wanted. Seems like it'd be a whole lot easier and it'd save them the problem of being pursued by a massive army. Seems like it's a ridiculously simplistic (and wrong) answer to a complex question that has a dozen better alternative answers.

And Chris...I'm not really saying Bush's line of thought is wrong. I'm saying he should never be allowed to speak in public. Ever. Get someone with diplomatic skills to do the talking as to avoid the confusion and potential pissing off of other countries. I for one don't want to be represented on a world stage by a wanna-be cowboy who got a little carried away after watching The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

There's one thing I don't understand...does anyone actually buy the whole "they hate us for our freedom" thing? If you think about it, it's pretty illogical.

well seeing as they are religious extremist who believe in the opposite of what we stand for, then we go over to try and get the dictator or whatever out of power, which gives their country free religion, or at least we try to preach that, they do get pissed. and illogical? they are willing to strap up explosives and kill themselves, i think that throws the logic argument out the window.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

There's one thing I don't understand...does anyone actually buy the whole "they hate us for our freedom" thing? If you think about it, it's pretty illogical. I mean...by showing they're willing to piss off the world's biggest superpower, they've already shown a proclivity towards violence. If they don't have a problem with violence and are jealous of freedom, they could save themselves a lot of hassle and just violently overthrow their own government and live however they wanted. Seems like it'd be a whole lot easier and it'd save them the problem of being pursued by a massive army. Seems like it's a ridiculously simplistic (and wrong) answer to a complex question that has a dozen better alternative answers.

And Chris...I'm not really saying Bush's line of thought is wrong. I'm saying he should never be allowed to speak in public. Ever. Get someone with diplomatic skills to do the talking as to avoid the confusion and potential pissing off of other countries. I for one don't want to be represented on a world stage by a wanna-be cowboy who got a little carried away after watching The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly.

Steve I think you are missing a major point in all of this. These extreem groups believe we are infidels and their reiligous views tell them they must remove us. A 'Holy War' on secular societies is a huge and you have seemed to completely over looked that.

They what people like you and I dead. Their leaders preach hate towards the rest of the world. They want us gone. THis is war. Bush didn't need to say it for it to be. It was this way far before 9/11 and far before his speach telling people to pick aside.

[GT40FIED]

Rob...you're forgetting that the whole idea of a holy war (jihad) was relatively unknown to these people until WE reintroduced it in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion in the early 80's. Yes, it's part of their religion, but it had been largely forgotten until we showed up. And really, among any religious fanatics, hate is a symptom. It doesn't matter who they are. There are radical Christians who hate. Radical Jews who hate. Radical muslims who hate. Let's not pretend like this one denomination is any different from the others. There are plenty of moderate muslims who don't pick up weapons and go off to fight. You won't hear about them on the news, but they're out there. Shit...people here kill doctors for performing abortions. Aside from the body count, they're no different than islamic terrorists when it comes down to ideology.

And Chris...I can find a lot of flaws in your statement. First of all, not everyone we're fighting is a religious extremist. Many are simply pissed off that we're there and are fighting back. No single American can say they wouldn't do the same if the tables were turned (just watch the movie Red Dawn). Secondly, to many middle eastern countries control their population by religion. Israel, our best "ally" (sarcasm definitely intended) won't let anyone live there who isn't a jew. Jews can't marry non-jews there. Now tell me that's any more pragmatic than what happens in other countries we've got our eye on. As for preaching, who the fuck are we to even suggest we know what's right? This country's fucked 8 ways from Sunday and we're going to run around telling other countries what to do? And as for suicide bombings being illogical, just because it isn't logical to you doesn't mean a thing. Sure, I find it ridiculous...but I wasn't raised in that culture. A few hundred years ago martyrdom was a heavy prescence in christianity. Some of the more extremist muslims have simply carried on with such a tradition. This is why America shouldn't ever invade any country. We don't understand the first thing about their culture and we don't want to. We define justice by the death toll.