.:HSTuners::

Robert · 08-30-2006, 09:55 PM

So my wife and I watched this movie tonight and I cannot help but see the symbolism between England in the movie and the USA's makings today.

Your thoughts? Seen the movie?

If you haven't seen it, it was a very well done movie. Alot of character development, interesting plot and rich.

*ChrisCantSkate* · 08-31-2006, 12:53 AM

i kinda thought that but i think its just because everyone wants to think we're being controled like that. i'd say russia in the 80's or a 1984 type senerio. the usa isnt that far... yet

GT40FIED · 08-31-2006, 01:29 AM

Well...I think what you saw is kind of what they intended to insinuate. It's a lot like the movies 1984 or Brazil, both of which take place in an overzealously and somewhat totalitarian England. It's just that they replaced John Hurt's character in 1984 with the much more "hands on" V in the comic book.

I think the whole point is to serve as a cautionary story that if America isn't careful it's going to end up like the slightly futuristic England of the movie. In the movie we're already pretty much done for (complete with a civil war in the midwest...bring it on). The thing that really hit home with me was the talking head on TV...Prothero or whatever his name was. He comes off a LOT like Bill O'Reilly, but really there's a dozen other pundits who are just as irresponsible and draw wild conclusions based on little more than a hope and a dream. That, and the description of how the high chancelor came to power seemed eerily familiar.

I personally would like to think of it more as a morality play. You know...like a lesson in how people should be treated and what will happen when a governing body pushes people too far in the name of itself. So yeah...I see a lot of parallels and "what ifs" between the movie and the U.S., but I hope we can turn things around before then.

Robert · 08-31-2006, 09:22 AM

Steve, the thing that hit home the most for me is when the character v said 'People should not be scared of their governments, governments should be scared of the people.'

TOday's governments seem untouchable, and I do believe people are affraid of being labelled a terrorist. With the recent reduction in civilian rights and increased government control, particularly in the US, I suspect things are shifting.

What bothered me the most is the reality that most people wouldnt do anything about it. Makes me want to own some guns....

GT40FIED · 08-31-2006, 09:55 AM

Well I think that line was certainly the core of the film. When worse comes to worse, the people have the final say in how a government is constructed. The problem is that, like in the movie, people are often scared into submission by their governments. Just look at what's happened over the past few years in this country. Views about world events have not been on an even keel. It's always hyped up to the point where people are just about afraid to step outdoors. This works for those in power so long as they can focus the attention on an external source, but how long can that possibly last? Like Ben Franklin said, "Those who would trade permanent privacy for temporary security deserve neither". It should be interesting in the coming years (if things continue the way they are) to see just how far people are willing to be pushed. If that becomes the case, it's not a question of "if", but a question of "when". If this country keeps on down the proverbial slippery slope, the people WILL take physical action...it's just a matter of time.

*ChrisCantSkate* · 08-31-2006, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

"Those who would trade permanent privacy for temporary security deserve neither".

i like that quote.

Robert · 08-31-2006, 05:02 PM

That is not the correct quote.

B Franklian said "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety"

Source http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

More over though I think the reality is things are changing, peoples values are watered down and we've being forced into excepting things unlike in times past.

If you look at the amount of things like same sex marriages, removal of religion from schools and other things along these lines. More has changed in the last 50-60 years then in the 200 years before that.

GT40FIED · 08-31-2006, 05:21 PM

Yeah...I always screw that quote up. I've seen it quoted so many ways that I forget the original. Thanks for the correction.

The way I see it, any given society has to evolve. If it's not evolving, it's standing still which is, within this context, moving backward. We've had a lot of societal changes in the past 50-60 years like the ones you listed, but I think in the last 20 or 30 years it's sort of snowballed. Whenever change happens at such a rapid pace there will always be a group of people who react against it and I think that's what we're seeing now. That in and of itself seems pretty normal, but I think the problem now becomes the fact that some people in power would use the momentum of these changes and consequential reactions to further their own agenda in a less than ethical fashion. For example, America is just now being acquainted with terrorism and in quite a rapid fashion. While people scramble to adjust, some people in power are trying to use the confusion and natural fear to push revocation of civil liberties and things of that nature by exploiting that fear. The problem is that, unlike in the movie, we have no V.

Robert · 08-31-2006, 08:02 PM

Steve I think you have good point, I agree people are missusing this time of confusion. North Americans have largely been sheltered from terrorism for the last 50 years however its been around for a long time.

GT40FIED · 09-01-2006, 01:24 AM

I'll tell you what's really bugging me right now...these guys with like 30 years in the military being branded as unAmerican or unpatriotic. All of these guys in congress are being branded as unpatriotic, mostly by seriously right wing counterparts, after serving their country with impeccable service records and then with public service in congress. The sad thing is that the people pointing fingers were probably doing keg stands and blowing coke at Yale or Harvard while this guy was getting fitted for fake plastic toes courtesy of a land mine in Hanoi or some other battlezone in some other foreign country. Obviously, military and/or public service doesn't make you immune from saying and doing all things unAmerican, but all of this is over statements that counter our current administration's stance on things. If people are scared into not asking questions, then you'll ultimately be left with a one party system and that really doesn't work for anyone.

*AzCivic* · 09-09-2006, 07:44 PM

You all actually think the gov't has more power now than it did say 50 years ago?

GT40FIED · 09-10-2006, 04:44 AM

I think it depends how you define power. The administrations around the time of...say...J. Edgar Hoover we definitely involved in some seriously shady deals. Hell...Hoover had more dirt on anyone of importance than any human has a right to have. That said, it was all done in a real cloak and dagger kind of way. Behind closed doors and without the slightest hint of public knowledge. So there's really little chance for people to speak out on specific issues because they just plain have no clue that it's happening.

These days there are still no doubt shady deals being done in back alleys but you've got to admit that we're a lot more open about fucking people over than we were 50 years ago. Imprison someone without charges or counsel for an indefinite period of time? Sure. In fact, let's turn it into a law. Place wiretaps on citizen's phones without a warrant and little more than a hunch? Sure...we'll even defend it on national TV even though it's clearly illegal. Simply put, I think a lot of the perception that the government has more power now is purely psychological. They've done all of this shit that make a good amount of people furious, then waved their middle fingers and told us there was nothing we could do about it. Chairman Mao once said "kill one, scare a thousand" and I think the same theory applies loosely here. If you watch someone get royally fucked over you'll think twice about picking up where they left off. It's a great way to keep people quiet...even if it is morally, ethically, and legally reprehensible.

*AzCivic* · 09-10-2006, 05:05 PM

Sooo, with all that said would you agree that the gov't doesn't have as much power now as they did 50 years ago? I could only imagine what would happen if someone merely mentioned the possibility of putting a certain group of people in camps because they were seen as a threat. People would shit their pants.

If you do agree then I'd say we are moving away from a V for vendetta type country rather than toward it.

Are you really worried about the gov't tapping your phone?

GT40FIED · 09-10-2006, 08:08 PM

No...I'm not worried about people tapping my phone. It's merely an example of something that's clearly illegal but some people have accepted because they've been tricked into believing certain things.

Like I said, I draw two seperate distinctions between government power. In terms of physical power I think we're right about where we were 50 years ago. However, in terms of psychological power they're far more powerful than the government of 50 years ago. Honestly, I don't see the possibility of people (read: muslims/middle easterners) being put into camps as such an implausible event. We've already got Guantanamo Bay (a.k.a. Camp X-Ray) that's full of arabs and I don't think it's so impossible to ponder if we'd ever have camps on U.S. soil. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. But people here have been tricked into becoming so incredibly ethnocentric and xenophobic that the smallest event would likely cause a huge backlash making way for such a thing to happen.

*AzCivic* · 09-10-2006, 11:41 PM

we right about where we were? Japanese military attacked a military installation and we put thousands of Japanese americans in camps. Now islamic crazies from the middle east kill thousands of innocent americans and all you hear is "be nice to middle eastern people, please don't offend them". god forbid an middle easterner get a little extra attention at an airport. The gov't is no where near as powerful as it used to be, there's no unity anymore just a bunch of bickering and fighting.

CD5Passion · 09-11-2006, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzCivic

we right about where we were? Japanese military attacked a military installation and we put thousands of Japanese americans in camps. Now islamic crazies from the middle east kill thousands of innocent americans and all you hear is "be nice to middle eastern people, please don't offend them". The gov't is no where near as powerful as it used to be, there's no unity anymore just a bunch of bickering and fighting.

that shit was gay....
my dad was born in a japanese camp, my family lost their farm because of the government

GT40FIED · 09-11-2006, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzCivic

we right about where we were? Japanese military attacked a military installation and we put thousands of Japanese americans in camps. Now islamic crazies from the middle east kill thousands of innocent americans and all you hear is "be nice to middle eastern people, please don't offend them". god forbid an middle easterner get a little extra attention at an airport. The gov't is no where near as powerful as it used to be, there's no unity anymore just a bunch of bickering and fighting.

Oh I'm not saying that it's not ok to pay attention to that guy with the beard from Saudi Arabia at the airport. Quite the contrary...and I think people of Arabic decent should be understanding of that. And really, is it unreasonable to ask people to be more tolerant of muslims than we have been? Much like priests molesting children, an religiously zealous muslim is more the exception, not the norm. Did putting thousands of innocent Japanese people in camps win the war for us or even make us the slightest bit safer? Probably not. Neither did rampant, accepted paranoia. That's why Japanese internment camps were one of the most embarassing episodes in American history next to slavery.

Let's flip this for a second. I'm thinking about this because I just watched Soldiers In The Army Of God on HBO iControl (shortly before becoming vioently ill that I share a planet with these assholes). Since 1990 there have been 2 acts of muslim terrorism on U.S. soil. Since Roe Vs. Wade in the early '70s there have been more than 2400 instances of violence (including 7 deaths among doctors) reported against abortion clinics. By the logic you've used above, it would be perfectly understandable to arrest everyone who pickets outside of an abortion provider with the assumption that they're a ticking time bomb being perfectly reasonable. We won't do that, of course, because they're white christians and white christians can't do anything wrong...ever (even when they admit outright, as they do in this documentary, that they're a terroristic organization). While I'd say it's more than fair to look harder at a group of people if they match a profile for people that create a certain kind of violence, rounding up EVERYONE from that demographic and locking them up is not only impractical, it's just wrong. Besides, didn't you hear? Everyone in the arabic world loves us besides terrorists. No...seriously...every single one of them. They all love us and every single thing we've done "for them".

CD5Passion · 09-11-2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Oh I'm not saying that it's not ok to pay attention to that guy with the beard from Saudi Arabia at the airport. Quite the contrary...and I think people of Arabic decent should be understanding of that. And really, is it unreasonable to ask people to be more tolerant of muslims than we have been? Much like priests molesting children, an religiously zealous muslim is more the exception, not the norm. Did putting thousands of innocent Japanese people in camps win the war for us or even make us the slightest bit safer? Probably not. Neither did rampant, accepted paranoia. That's why Japanese internment camps were one of the most embarassing episodes in American history next to slavery.

Let's flip this for a second. I'm thinking about this because I just watched Soldiers In The Army Of God on HBO iControl (shortly before becoming vioently ill that I share a planet with these assholes). Since 1990 there have been 2 acts of muslim terrorism on U.S. soil. Since Roe Vs. Wade in the early '70s there have been more than 2400 instances of violence (including 7 deaths among doctors) reported against abortion clinics. By the logic you've used above, it would be perfectly understandable to arrest everyone who pickets outside of an abortion provider with the assumption that they're a ticking time bomb being perfectly reasonable. We won't do that, of course, because they're white christians and white christians can't do anything wrong...ever (even when they admit outright, as they do in this documentary, that they're a terroristic organization). While I'd say it's more than fair to look harder at a group of people if they match a profile for people that create a certain kind of violence, rounding up EVERYONE from that demographic and locking them up is not only impractical, it's just wrong. Besides, didn't you hear? Everyone in the arabic world loves us besides terrorists. No...seriously...every single one of them. They all love us and every single thing we've done "for them".

it really does bug me that almost everyone fails to see the terrorists that are on our soil that are part of our country. there are tons of extremists of our own nationality and color, but it doesnt matter because they are just that.
i think you hit the nail on the head with this one steve

Robert · 09-11-2006, 09:22 AM

I do think there is simply too much 'correcting' that needs to be done both nationally and internationally.

Considering that we have the FBI and local law enforcement to deal with homegrown terror. It would appear to me that things are actually under control within America. Granted people appear to be more fearful then ever thats another topic.

Aside from issues in the 90's there haven't been any recent homegrown issues.

Consider for a moment whats happen in the last 10's internationally against the US I believe there is more 'hate' outside of the US then internally. This places the gov't in an interesting position. Wait for them to come to your home or get them in theirs. Since for the most part the US has more to lose in such a 'wait until their in my home' mentality I believe going to them is the only alternative.

I dont agree with everything that has happened, will happen or is happening right now. Fortunately I still enjoy alot of freedoms most people dont. This is our reality. It is for this reason that I know we're better off fighting the fight on someone elses land. The costs would be far greater then the current debt if they were faught with in the country.

I encourage everyone to take a look at their freedoms and those of other countries. In someway good always comes from even the most horrible situations.

GT40FIED · 09-11-2006, 10:06 AM

Well...how can you argue with fighting on someone else's land? I mean...it's not yours and if you're not there then it's win/win. My point was basically that we demonize threats abroad while virtually ignoring them at home. I mean...if you look at a homegrown terrorist like Eric Rudolph, sure he got some attention from the government, but it's absolutely nothing compared to what we give perceived threats abroad. Look at a guy like Paul Hill. If he hadn't pretty much given himself up we'd probably still be looking for him to this day. Then again, if your name is Rudolph or Hill you've got much less to worry about than if your name is Mohammed or the like.

I don't agree with the "wait 'till they come here" approach...but the U.S. has so far seemed incapable of fighting an intelligent war abroad. If we're going to hit them where they live, great. The problem is that we can't decipher who "they" are or where "they" live and we've killed thousands of innocent people looking for "them" with bombs that are, unfortunately, smarter than our commander in chief. Personally, I'm not against military action in it's entirety. I'm against military action based on flawed judgement and intelligence that is sub par at best. There was a really great program on the Discovery Channel last night where Ted Koppel held a 3 hour pannel discussion on whether or not we're safer due to the freedoms we've lost (the title was something like "The Price Of Security"). I came away feeling less safe than I would've 5 years ago, but everyone raised excellent points. I'd definitely suggest looking to see if it'll re-air and watching it.

*AzCivic* · 09-11-2006, 10:29 AM

Were we not any safer with the japanese internment camps during wwII? who are you to say if we were or if we weren't? For all you or I know acts of violence were prevented which would've made the camps successful. Not that the arguement had ANYTHING to do with whether such a situation is right or wrong it has to do with whether or not the gov't could get away with it if they wanted to. They can't because they have less control then they used to.

LOL, comparing anti-abortion crazies with islamic nut heads, yup they're the same thing death counts and all. I don't recall an anti-abortionists trying to seize control of a airliner in order to kill thousands of people who had nothing to do with abortion in their quest to make a point. Of course this has nothing to do with whether the gov't has more or less power than in the past either.

So steve you don't want us to wait until bad things happen here, but you don't want fighting going on somewhere else because you don't approve of how its being done. So what do you want? A magical solution that rids the world of terrorism while posing absolutely no inconvience to yourself and no possibility of casualties?

*AzCivic* · 09-11-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CD5Passion

it really does bug me that almost everyone fails to see the terrorists that are on our soil that are part of our country. there are tons of extremists of our own nationality and color, but it doesnt matter because they are just that.
i think you hit the nail on the head with this one steve

do you honestly think no one cares if a crazy born in america commits an act of terrorism? thats sad.

Robert · 09-11-2006, 01:32 PM

CD5PASSION to comment on your jap camps in WWII.

It was actually considered the best way to prevent spies at the time. It was generally excepted by gov't and military at the time that there were many Jap spies already in the US. The safest way to guard against that was to round them up since more sophistocated methods were not available. It was a sad thing but a sign of the times.

You dont seem very angry about the fact the japs pearl habour. It wasn't one sided what happened to Jap's in North America. The samething even happened IN Canada. War is ugly. I guess if people didnt bomb life would be better.

GT40FIED · 09-11-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzCivic

LOL, comparing anti-abortion crazies with islamic nut heads, yup they're the same thing death counts and all. I don't recall an anti-abortionists trying to seize control of a airliner in order to kill thousands of people who had nothing to do with abortion in their quest to make a point. Of course this has nothing to do with whether the gov't has more or less power than in the past either.

So steve you don't want us to wait until bad things happen here, but you don't want fighting going on somewhere else because you don't approve of how its being done. So what do you want? A magical solution that rids the world of terrorism while posing absolutely no inconvience to yourself and no possibility of casualties?

What does a body count have to do with some fanatic's ideology? Yes, they're the same because they both use a twisted sense of religious morality to justify murdering innocent people. And generally when you admit to being a terrorist organization...well...yeah. Believe it or not, my post wasn't solely a rebutle to yours, but rather a thought on the thread as a whole in relation to where the country is going. We're fighting a huge war overseas while we're letting people in our own backyards quite literally get away with murder just because they look like us and claim to have the same morals.

And it's not that I don't think we should ever fight...it's that we should make a smart plan and execute it well. We became so gung ho on the idea of tracking down terrorists that we completely neglected to make a real plan. If you wanna talk government power, let's talk about how the world's most powerful government is seemingly doing everything it can to bypass many of the freedoms afforded to it's own citizens while claiming to spread freedom elsewhere. If the Iraqis are so free, maybe they can send some of it our way.

*AzCivic* · 09-11-2006, 04:22 PM

Who's getting away with murder? The police and FBI aren't looking the other way when someone at an abortion clinic gets killed so what are you trying to say? There's always some retards that think they can get away with stuff they shouldn't which is why we have a justice system and over loaded prisons.

Do you have a better plan? Anyone can sit around and whine that something isn't getting done how they'd like, too bad they usually don't have anything better to offer.

Bypass our freedoms? What can't you do now that you could do before 9/11?

GT40FIED · 09-11-2006, 06:16 PM

Really...if the FBI profiled these known Christian crazies with 1/100th the attention given to potential muslim crazies then there'd be a lot more arrests made. Why not start sending those people to Guantanamo? I mean...they'll eventually hurt someone so they're pretty much on par with everyone else at Gitmo. Sooooo...why the double standard?

And actually, I do have a better plan. We just need to knock it off. No one in this country seems to understand that what works for us probably wouldn't work somewhere else. American style democracy, while not really a democracy in the true sense of the word, just doesn't work in countries like Iraq. Ok...so we've "freed" them (whatever the hell that means)...now what? Install a U.S. style democracy that probably won't last 5 years? Our government doesn't do their homework. They didn't look at all of the possible scenarios we might run into in Iraq. Like...oh...that a good amount of people might not want us there or that we'd just piss off people who mean us harm thus putting us in more danger. They just assumed we'd roll into Baghdad, kill all the bad guys, and the people would throw us a ticker tape parade. Never mind there are problems in the country that go back a thousand years that no amount of "liberating" can solve. I say now we just sit back and see what happens. If the country wants to destroy itself, let it. If they're really free then that's their choice. If you really believe that what would happen if we just stood back won't happen eventually anyway, I have a bridge I could sell you. We're just buying time. We'll have to deal with the fallout of our bad decisions eventually...might as well get it over with.

Well...let's see. Since 9/11 I don't have the freedom of knowing that I won't be tossed in jail without a trial or lawyer or even charges for something I've said that someone might take the wrong way. I don't have the freedom of knowing that a branch of the government can search my house without my knowledge and no solid evidence. I don't have the freedom of some having some asshole call me unpatriotic because I have an opinion that's not popular. I don't have the freedom of not being videotaped damn near every second I'm out of my house. I know you're saying to yourself "well if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" and in a way you'd be right. But then again I don't think I should have to deal with any of these things period. Does it make sense that, because of a foreign threat, we tighten down on every citizen in this country? All of that manpower and money could have done a lot more for us if we had put it towards the RIGHT intelligence gathering rather than just casting a huge net and coming up empty. The next time you go to an airport and witness how painfully inept security is, tell me we spent the right money in the right places.

*AzCivic* · 09-11-2006, 08:32 PM

so you're great plan is to run and hide? wow that's amazing, we attack, people blow themselves up, we run and hide. Sound effective, that'll REALLY show islamic crazies who's boss! Or you'd probably prefer nothing being done, just have people sit on their asses for a few decades thinking up the perfect plan.

Why do you think that all of a sudden any of that is JUST now possible? If the gov't wanted to do any of that well before 9/11 they would've, with your favorite party in office or not.

GT40FIED · 09-11-2006, 10:24 PM

Who said anything about running and hiding? I'm saying keep a decent sized force there but realize that the problems there will always be there and throwing away young American lives isn't going to fix that. We could be like a moderator in a debate. They pretty much make sure shit doesn't get out of hand but will step in if necessary. The country is going to tear itself apart whether we're there or not...there's no point sending our men and women down with it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 9/11 just now being possible. Seems to me that people successfully snuck explosives into those same buildings close to 10 years earlier. Even if you buy the whole government explanation of 9/11 (you know I don't and I know you do...I'm not going there again), you can't deny that they had ample warning and could've done something had they not been some kind of profound stupid. Ignorance would be a great excuse if there weren't all of those pesky security briefings lying around that warn of pretty much exactly what happened. I wonder how hard it was for Bush's cabinet to act surprised on 9/11.

*AzCivic* · 09-11-2006, 11:32 PM

That's what we're doing and throwing in a little democracy for the hell of it, who knows maybe it'll take hold when the people over there realize that it actually is better than what they're used to.

I meant that the gov't could do all those things you listed before 9/11, if they saw you as a real threat I'm sure they'd make exceptions to any rule in the book to stop you. And since the terrorists live in our own country before they attack then yes it does make sense to monitor what's happening in our own country. As far as airport security; allow racial profiling then I'll feel safe at an airport, I could give two shits if someone feels offended. We have a great advantage in this war on terrorism, we know what they look like. God forbid we do anything about it, I'm sure the airlines don't want to pay any more settlements to offended shitheads. Liberals don't like such things though so they'll do whatever they can to make sure old grandpa joe gets frisked just as much, if not more than, the poor poor middle easterners.

There's a difference in knowing an attack may happen and knowing one will happen on sept 11 with such and such flights into such and such buildings. I guess the Clinton administration had the same problem acting surprised, of course they had the chance(s) to kill bin laden so maybe they felt a tad worse about the situation.

CD5Passion · 09-12-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert

CD5PASSION to comment on your jap camps in WWII.

It was actually considered the best way to prevent spies at the time. It was generally excepted by gov't and military at the time that there were many Jap spies already in the US. The safest way to guard against that was to round them up since more sophistocated methods were not available. It was a sad thing but a sign of the times.

You dont seem very angry about the fact the japs pearl habour. It wasn't one sided what happened to Jap's in North America. The samething even happened IN Canada. War is ugly. I guess if people didnt bomb life would be better.

.....please stop using the term jap...

regardless! they were americans...and they had land and homes they gained through hardwork. My father was born in a Japanese concentration camp and our family lost a lot of land..farm land...you ass

as for the pearl harbor thing, those were japanese...not a bunch of americans who turned against their homeland.

Violent Apathy · 09-12-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AzCivic

That's what we're doing and throwing in a little democracy for the hell of it, who knows maybe it'll take hold when the people over there realize that it actually is better than what they're used to.

No, won't work, fuck these people they're not worth it in the first place. Anyways the people with the ability to brainwash the masses by twisting religion will definately never go for democracy since no, it wouldn't be better than what they're used to.

Robert · 09-12-2006, 09:45 PM

Watch the movie loose change, very interesting.

CD5Passion, your family did suffer. So did mine, because of the war all the men in my family went over seas to fight. Some didnt return. 6 Million Jews were murdered, 1000's of Americas died and we're worried about camps?

I'm sorry to be rude, though a bad situtation on the scale of events its rather small. America did not murder all the Japanese, they did what they thought would increase national security. Now native American's they got the shaft.

As for the events unfolding now, there is too much money invovled in all of this for 9/11 to be an unplanned event and for gov't officals not to be in on it. Freedoms have changed, policies have changed and in this time of fear people are doing things that are unheard off perviously in history.

I dont think running and hiding would solve the problem, neither do I think having less war would reduce the problems. I think the military needs to be open upped and shuffled around. The gov't has no control over the long term direction of the military, and in a sense the military out lives government.

Watch out for the military-industrial-complex. Generals can last for 30 years. Presidents are good for 8. You tell me who has more influence.

CD5Passion · 09-14-2006, 10:51 AM

[quote=Robert]
CD5Passion, your family did suffer. So did mine, because of the war all the men in my family went over seas to fight. Some didnt return. 6 Million Jews were murdered, 1000's of Americas died and we're worried about camps?/QUOTE]

I feel you missed the point, not worried about camps, but aggravated that one's own country will take everything you earned in your life and not caring just because you were had darker skin and different shape to your eyes. And then the prejudice you were faced with even when you were released from those camps and coming to find that your home had been ransacked and destroyed by your fellow countrymen.

Robert · 09-14-2006, 12:13 PM

CD5Passion, I hear you. The German's weren't carried for much either. Thankfully the only thing lost was the material possiesions of the time.

They were really tough times, in a sense no different then today. I'm sure some if not all of us find ourselves looking at people from the middle east slightly differently.

*ChrisCantSkate* · 09-14-2006, 12:44 PM

lets debate more shit that none of us were alive for... seriously guys, why? just want to get someone on edge? i feel sorry for the past generations dont get me wrong, but im not shedding a tear for someone who wasnt alive even 20 or 30 years after this happened for something more people who arnt alive now decided was needed at the time. why not bring up the spanish inquisition or maybe rome invading greese? damn trojen horse that wasnt fair. slavery is always a good one maybe someone being that up... durring certian courses of time certain ways of doing things are considered the "right" way of doing things for the betterment of a whole state, nation, continent, or world. they most likely will be looked at as wrong in 100 years when hindsight is there to interpret but at the time when push comes to shove, sometimes you end up shoving. whats a grudge worth when it hurts you more than it helps? making a point? good job your now worse off again.

your life begings when your born and ends when you die, you can make it worse than it could be by researching and interpreting the past, or you can look forward and make the most of it. hate to let ya know but what was done a few years ago cant be undone or even made "fair", and we're alive for it. how/why would something none of us were alive for be differenet

sorry to sound like an ass, been a shitty few days just sayin whats on my mind

CD5Passion · 09-14-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisCantSkate

lets debate more shit that none of us were alive for... seriously guys, why? just want to get someone on edge? i feel sorry for the past generations dont get me wrong, but im not shedding a tear for someone who wasnt alive even 20 or 30 years after this happened for something more people who arnt alive now decided was needed at the time. why not bring up the spanish inquisition or maybe rome invading greese? damn trojen horse that wasnt fair. slavery is always a good one maybe someone being that up... durring certian courses of time certain ways of doing things are considered the "right" way of doing things for the betterment of a whole state, nation, continent, or world. they most likely will be looked at as wrong in 100 years when hindsight is there to interpret but at the time when push comes to shove, sometimes you end up shoving. whats a grudge worth when it hurts you more than it helps? making a point? good job your now worse off again.

your life begings when your born and ends when you die, you can make it worse than it could be by researching and interpreting the past, or you can look forward and make the most of it. hate to let ya know but what was done a few years ago cant be undone or even made "fair", and we're alive for it. how/why would something none of us were alive for be differenet

sorry to sound like an ass, been a shitty few days just sayin whats on my mind

I hear ya but I have had been called a jap before in a very derogatory way, I have my reasons for getting pissy when someone uses that term.

*ChrisCantSkate* · 09-14-2006, 03:41 PM

derogative i understand, ive been called white in a derogative way but when they arnt is it worth it? im not specifically talking your situation, in general

Robert · 09-14-2006, 04:05 PM

I get called a cannuk but I dont lose sleep over it.

mylittlecivic · 09-18-2006, 11:36 PM

good movie. yeah im not going to say more on the subject because i would say too much.......

08-30-2006, 09:55 PM	#1
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	v for vendetta So my wife and I watched this movie tonight and I cannot help but see the symbolism between England in the movie and the USA's makings today. Your thoughts? Seen the movie? If you haven't seen it, it was a very well done movie. Alot of character development, interesting plot and rich.

08-31-2006, 12:53 AM	#2
ChrisCantSkate Thought Police Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: orlando florida Age: 41 Posts: 9,662	i kinda thought that but i think its just because everyone wants to think we're being controled like that. i'd say russia in the 80's or a 1984 type senerio. the usa isnt that far... yet __________________ Black Vtec Prelude-h22a power'd Many dreams come true, and some have silver linings. I live for my dreams and a pocket full of gold.

08-31-2006, 01:29 AM	#3
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	Well...I think what you saw is kind of what they intended to insinuate. It's a lot like the movies 1984 or Brazil, both of which take place in an overzealously and somewhat totalitarian England. It's just that they replaced John Hurt's character in 1984 with the much more "hands on" V in the comic book. I think the whole point is to serve as a cautionary story that if America isn't careful it's going to end up like the slightly futuristic England of the movie. In the movie we're already pretty much done for (complete with a civil war in the midwest...bring it on). The thing that really hit home with me was the talking head on TV...Prothero or whatever his name was. He comes off a LOT like Bill O'Reilly, but really there's a dozen other pundits who are just as irresponsible and draw wild conclusions based on little more than a hope and a dream. That, and the description of how the high chancelor came to power seemed eerily familiar. I personally would like to think of it more as a morality play. You know...like a lesson in how people should be treated and what will happen when a governing body pushes people too far in the name of itself. So yeah...I see a lot of parallels and "what ifs" between the movie and the U.S., but I hope we can turn things around before then. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

08-31-2006, 09:55 AM	#5
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	Well I think that line was certainly the core of the film. When worse comes to worse, the people have the final say in how a government is constructed. The problem is that, like in the movie, people are often scared into submission by their governments. Just look at what's happened over the past few years in this country. Views about world events have not been on an even keel. It's always hyped up to the point where people are just about afraid to step outdoors. This works for those in power so long as they can focus the attention on an external source, but how long can that possibly last? Like Ben Franklin said, "Those who would trade permanent privacy for temporary security deserve neither". It should be interesting in the coming years (if things continue the way they are) to see just how far people are willing to be pushed. If that becomes the case, it's not a question of "if", but a question of "when". If this country keeps on down the proverbial slippery slope, the people WILL take physical action...it's just a matter of time. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

08-31-2006, 05:21 PM	#8
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	Yeah...I always screw that quote up. I've seen it quoted so many ways that I forget the original. Thanks for the correction. The way I see it, any given society has to evolve. If it's not evolving, it's standing still which is, within this context, moving backward. We've had a lot of societal changes in the past 50-60 years like the ones you listed, but I think in the last 20 or 30 years it's sort of snowballed. Whenever change happens at such a rapid pace there will always be a group of people who react against it and I think that's what we're seeing now. That in and of itself seems pretty normal, but I think the problem now becomes the fact that some people in power would use the momentum of these changes and consequential reactions to further their own agenda in a less than ethical fashion. For example, America is just now being acquainted with terrorism and in quite a rapid fashion. While people scramble to adjust, some people in power are trying to use the confusion and natural fear to push revocation of civil liberties and things of that nature by exploiting that fear. The problem is that, unlike in the movie, we have no V. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

08-31-2006, 09:22 AM	#4
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	Steve, the thing that hit home the most for me is when the character v said 'People should not be scared of their governments, governments should be scared of the people.' TOday's governments seem untouchable, and I do believe people are affraid of being labelled a terrorist. With the recent reduction in civilian rights and increased government control, particularly in the US, I suspect things are shifting. What bothered me the most is the reality that most people wouldnt do anything about it. Makes me want to own some guns....

08-31-2006, 05:02 PM	#7
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	That is not the correct quote. B Franklian said "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaſe a little Temporary Safety, deſerve neither Liberty nor Safety" Source http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin More over though I think the reality is things are changing, peoples values are watered down and we've being forced into excepting things unlike in times past. If you look at the amount of things like same sex marriages, removal of religion from schools and other things along these lines. More has changed in the last 50-60 years then in the 200 years before that.

08-31-2006, 08:02 PM	#9
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	Steve I think you have good point, I agree people are missusing this time of confusion. North Americans have largely been sheltered from terrorism for the last 50 years however its been around for a long time.

09-01-2006, 01:24 AM	#10
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	I'll tell you what's really bugging me right now...these guys with like 30 years in the military being branded as unAmerican or unpatriotic. All of these guys in congress are being branded as unpatriotic, mostly by seriously right wing counterparts, after serving their country with impeccable service records and then with public service in congress. The sad thing is that the people pointing fingers were probably doing keg stands and blowing coke at Yale or Harvard while this guy was getting fitted for fake plastic toes courtesy of a land mine in Hanoi or some other battlezone in some other foreign country. Obviously, military and/or public service doesn't make you immune from saying and doing all things unAmerican, but all of this is over statements that counter our current administration's stance on things. If people are scared into not asking questions, then you'll ultimately be left with a one party system and that really doesn't work for anyone. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

09-09-2006, 07:44 PM	#11
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	You all actually think the gov't has more power now than it did say 50 years ago?

09-10-2006, 04:44 AM	#12
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	I think it depends how you define power. The administrations around the time of...say...J. Edgar Hoover we definitely involved in some seriously shady deals. Hell...Hoover had more dirt on anyone of importance than any human has a right to have. That said, it was all done in a real cloak and dagger kind of way. Behind closed doors and without the slightest hint of public knowledge. So there's really little chance for people to speak out on specific issues because they just plain have no clue that it's happening. These days there are still no doubt shady deals being done in back alleys but you've got to admit that we're a lot more open about fucking people over than we were 50 years ago. Imprison someone without charges or counsel for an indefinite period of time? Sure. In fact, let's turn it into a law. Place wiretaps on citizen's phones without a warrant and little more than a hunch? Sure...we'll even defend it on national TV even though it's clearly illegal. Simply put, I think a lot of the perception that the government has more power now is purely psychological. They've done all of this shit that make a good amount of people furious, then waved their middle fingers and told us there was nothing we could do about it. Chairman Mao once said "kill one, scare a thousand" and I think the same theory applies loosely here. If you watch someone get royally fucked over you'll think twice about picking up where they left off. It's a great way to keep people quiet...even if it is morally, ethically, and legally reprehensible. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

09-10-2006, 05:05 PM	#13
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	Sooo, with all that said would you agree that the gov't doesn't have as much power now as they did 50 years ago? I could only imagine what would happen if someone merely mentioned the possibility of putting a certain group of people in camps because they were seen as a threat. People would shit their pants. If you do agree then I'd say we are moving away from a V for vendetta type country rather than toward it. Are you really worried about the gov't tapping your phone?

09-10-2006, 08:08 PM	#14
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	No...I'm not worried about people tapping my phone. It's merely an example of something that's clearly illegal but some people have accepted because they've been tricked into believing certain things. Like I said, I draw two seperate distinctions between government power. In terms of physical power I think we're right about where we were 50 years ago. However, in terms of psychological power they're far more powerful than the government of 50 years ago. Honestly, I don't see the possibility of people (read: muslims/middle easterners) being put into camps as such an implausible event. We've already got Guantanamo Bay (a.k.a. Camp X-Ray) that's full of arabs and I don't think it's so impossible to ponder if we'd ever have camps on U.S. soil. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. But people here have been tricked into becoming so incredibly ethnocentric and xenophobic that the smallest event would likely cause a huge backlash making way for such a thing to happen. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

09-10-2006, 11:41 PM	#15
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	we right about where we were? Japanese military attacked a military installation and we put thousands of Japanese americans in camps. Now islamic crazies from the middle east kill thousands of innocent americans and all you hear is "be nice to middle eastern people, please don't offend them". god forbid an middle easterner get a little extra attention at an airport. The gov't is no where near as powerful as it used to be, there's no unity anymore just a bunch of bickering and fighting. Last edited by AzCivic : 09-11-2006 at 12:49 AM.

09-11-2006, 09:22 AM	#19
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	I do think there is simply too much 'correcting' that needs to be done both nationally and internationally. Considering that we have the FBI and local law enforcement to deal with homegrown terror. It would appear to me that things are actually under control within America. Granted people appear to be more fearful then ever thats another topic. Aside from issues in the 90's there haven't been any recent homegrown issues. Consider for a moment whats happen in the last 10's internationally against the US I believe there is more 'hate' outside of the US then internally. This places the gov't in an interesting position. Wait for them to come to your home or get them in theirs. Since for the most part the US has more to lose in such a 'wait until their in my home' mentality I believe going to them is the only alternative. I dont agree with everything that has happened, will happen or is happening right now. Fortunately I still enjoy alot of freedoms most people dont. This is our reality. It is for this reason that I know we're better off fighting the fight on someone elses land. The costs would be far greater then the current debt if they were faught with in the country. I encourage everyone to take a look at their freedoms and those of other countries. In someway good always comes from even the most horrible situations.

09-11-2006, 10:06 AM	#20
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	Well...how can you argue with fighting on someone else's land? I mean...it's not yours and if you're not there then it's win/win. My point was basically that we demonize threats abroad while virtually ignoring them at home. I mean...if you look at a homegrown terrorist like Eric Rudolph, sure he got some attention from the government, but it's absolutely nothing compared to what we give perceived threats abroad. Look at a guy like Paul Hill. If he hadn't pretty much given himself up we'd probably still be looking for him to this day. Then again, if your name is Rudolph or Hill you've got much less to worry about than if your name is Mohammed or the like. I don't agree with the "wait 'till they come here" approach...but the U.S. has so far seemed incapable of fighting an intelligent war abroad. If we're going to hit them where they live, great. The problem is that we can't decipher who "they" are or where "they" live and we've killed thousands of innocent people looking for "them" with bombs that are, unfortunately, smarter than our commander in chief. Personally, I'm not against military action in it's entirety. I'm against military action based on flawed judgement and intelligence that is sub par at best. There was a really great program on the Discovery Channel last night where Ted Koppel held a 3 hour pannel discussion on whether or not we're safer due to the freedoms we've lost (the title was something like "The Price Of Security"). I came away feeling less safe than I would've 5 years ago, but everyone raised excellent points. I'd definitely suggest looking to see if it'll re-air and watching it. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

09-11-2006, 10:29 AM	#21
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	Were we not any safer with the japanese internment camps during wwII? who are you to say if we were or if we weren't? For all you or I know acts of violence were prevented which would've made the camps successful. Not that the arguement had ANYTHING to do with whether such a situation is right or wrong it has to do with whether or not the gov't could get away with it if they wanted to. They can't because they have less control then they used to. LOL, comparing anti-abortion crazies with islamic nut heads, yup they're the same thing death counts and all. I don't recall an anti-abortionists trying to seize control of a airliner in order to kill thousands of people who had nothing to do with abortion in their quest to make a point. Of course this has nothing to do with whether the gov't has more or less power than in the past either. So steve you don't want us to wait until bad things happen here, but you don't want fighting going on somewhere else because you don't approve of how its being done. So what do you want? A magical solution that rids the world of terrorism while posing absolutely no inconvience to yourself and no possibility of casualties?

09-11-2006, 01:32 PM	#23
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	CD5PASSION to comment on your jap camps in WWII. It was actually considered the best way to prevent spies at the time. It was generally excepted by gov't and military at the time that there were many Jap spies already in the US. The safest way to guard against that was to round them up since more sophistocated methods were not available. It was a sad thing but a sign of the times. You dont seem very angry about the fact the japs pearl habour. It wasn't one sided what happened to Jap's in North America. The samething even happened IN Canada. War is ugly. I guess if people didnt bomb life would be better. Last edited by Robert : 09-11-2006 at 01:40 PM.

09-11-2006, 04:22 PM	#25
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	Who's getting away with murder? The police and FBI aren't looking the other way when someone at an abortion clinic gets killed so what are you trying to say? There's always some retards that think they can get away with stuff they shouldn't which is why we have a justice system and over loaded prisons. Do you have a better plan? Anyone can sit around and whine that something isn't getting done how they'd like, too bad they usually don't have anything better to offer. Bypass our freedoms? What can't you do now that you could do before 9/11?

09-11-2006, 06:16 PM	#26
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	Really...if the FBI profiled these known Christian crazies with 1/100th the attention given to potential muslim crazies then there'd be a lot more arrests made. Why not start sending those people to Guantanamo? I mean...they'll eventually hurt someone so they're pretty much on par with everyone else at Gitmo. Sooooo...why the double standard? And actually, I do have a better plan. We just need to knock it off. No one in this country seems to understand that what works for us probably wouldn't work somewhere else. American style democracy, while not really a democracy in the true sense of the word, just doesn't work in countries like Iraq. Ok...so we've "freed" them (whatever the hell that means)...now what? Install a U.S. style democracy that probably won't last 5 years? Our government doesn't do their homework. They didn't look at all of the possible scenarios we might run into in Iraq. Like...oh...that a good amount of people might not want us there or that we'd just piss off people who mean us harm thus putting us in more danger. They just assumed we'd roll into Baghdad, kill all the bad guys, and the people would throw us a ticker tape parade. Never mind there are problems in the country that go back a thousand years that no amount of "liberating" can solve. I say now we just sit back and see what happens. If the country wants to destroy itself, let it. If they're really free then that's their choice. If you really believe that what would happen if we just stood back won't happen eventually anyway, I have a bridge I could sell you. We're just buying time. We'll have to deal with the fallout of our bad decisions eventually...might as well get it over with. Well...let's see. Since 9/11 I don't have the freedom of knowing that I won't be tossed in jail without a trial or lawyer or even charges for something I've said that someone might take the wrong way. I don't have the freedom of knowing that a branch of the government can search my house without my knowledge and no solid evidence. I don't have the freedom of some having some asshole call me unpatriotic because I have an opinion that's not popular. I don't have the freedom of not being videotaped damn near every second I'm out of my house. I know you're saying to yourself "well if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide" and in a way you'd be right. But then again I don't think I should have to deal with any of these things period. Does it make sense that, because of a foreign threat, we tighten down on every citizen in this country? All of that manpower and money could have done a lot more for us if we had put it towards the RIGHT intelligence gathering rather than just casting a huge net and coming up empty. The next time you go to an airport and witness how painfully inept security is, tell me we spent the right money in the right places. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

09-11-2006, 08:32 PM	#27
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	so you're great plan is to run and hide? wow that's amazing, we attack, people blow themselves up, we run and hide. Sound effective, that'll REALLY show islamic crazies who's boss! Or you'd probably prefer nothing being done, just have people sit on their asses for a few decades thinking up the perfect plan. Why do you think that all of a sudden any of that is JUST now possible? If the gov't wanted to do any of that well before 9/11 they would've, with your favorite party in office or not.

09-11-2006, 10:24 PM	#28
GT40FIED Best...mod...ever Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: At the end of the longest line Age: 43 Posts: 7,451	Who said anything about running and hiding? I'm saying keep a decent sized force there but realize that the problems there will always be there and throwing away young American lives isn't going to fix that. We could be like a moderator in a debate. They pretty much make sure shit doesn't get out of hand but will step in if necessary. The country is going to tear itself apart whether we're there or not...there's no point sending our men and women down with it. I'm not sure what you mean by 9/11 just now being possible. Seems to me that people successfully snuck explosives into those same buildings close to 10 years earlier. Even if you buy the whole government explanation of 9/11 (you know I don't and I know you do...I'm not going there again), you can't deny that they had ample warning and could've done something had they not been some kind of profound stupid. Ignorance would be a great excuse if there weren't all of those pesky security briefings lying around that warn of pretty much exactly what happened. I wonder how hard it was for Bush's cabinet to act surprised on 9/11. __________________ 1984 1/2 Mustang GT350 #842, Faster than you...nuff said Anna Fan Club President/Dictator Someday, in the event that mankind actually figures out what it is that this world actually revoles around, thousands of people are going to be shocked and perplexed that it was not them. Sometimes this includes me. "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever." - George Orwell Welcome to the new Amerika

09-11-2006, 11:32 PM	#29
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 44 Posts: 3,804	That's what we're doing and throwing in a little democracy for the hell of it, who knows maybe it'll take hold when the people over there realize that it actually is better than what they're used to. I meant that the gov't could do all those things you listed before 9/11, if they saw you as a real threat I'm sure they'd make exceptions to any rule in the book to stop you. And since the terrorists live in our own country before they attack then yes it does make sense to monitor what's happening in our own country. As far as airport security; allow racial profiling then I'll feel safe at an airport, I could give two shits if someone feels offended. We have a great advantage in this war on terrorism, we know what they look like. God forbid we do anything about it, I'm sure the airlines don't want to pay any more settlements to offended shitheads. Liberals don't like such things though so they'll do whatever they can to make sure old grandpa joe gets frisked just as much, if not more than, the poor poor middle easterners. There's a difference in knowing an attack may happen and knowing one will happen on sept 11 with such and such flights into such and such buildings. I guess the Clinton administration had the same problem acting surprised, of course they had the chance(s) to kill bin laden so maybe they felt a tad worse about the situation. Last edited by AzCivic : 09-11-2006 at 11:39 PM.

09-12-2006, 09:45 PM	#32
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	Watch the movie loose change, very interesting. CD5Passion, your family did suffer. So did mine, because of the war all the men in my family went over seas to fight. Some didnt return. 6 Million Jews were murdered, 1000's of Americas died and we're worried about camps? I'm sorry to be rude, though a bad situtation on the scale of events its rather small. America did not murder all the Japanese, they did what they thought would increase national security. Now native American's they got the shaft. As for the events unfolding now, there is too much money invovled in all of this for 9/11 to be an unplanned event and for gov't officals not to be in on it. Freedoms have changed, policies have changed and in this time of fear people are doing things that are unheard off perviously in history. I dont think running and hiding would solve the problem, neither do I think having less war would reduce the problems. I think the military needs to be open upped and shuffled around. The gov't has no control over the long term direction of the military, and in a sense the military out lives government. Watch out for the military-industrial-complex. Generals can last for 30 years. Presidents are good for 8. You tell me who has more influence. Last edited by Robert : 09-12-2006 at 09:48 PM.

09-14-2006, 10:51 AM	#33
CD5Passion Registered User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Santa Barbara, California Age: 39 Posts: 5,446	[quote=Robert] CD5Passion, your family did suffer. So did mine, because of the war all the men in my family went over seas to fight. Some didnt return. 6 Million Jews were murdered, 1000's of Americas died and we're worried about camps?/QUOTE] I feel you missed the point, not worried about camps, but aggravated that one's own country will take everything you earned in your life and not caring just because you were had darker skin and different shape to your eyes. And then the prejudice you were faced with even when you were released from those camps and coming to find that your home had been ransacked and destroyed by your fellow countrymen. __________________

09-14-2006, 12:13 PM	#34
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	CD5Passion, I hear you. The German's weren't carried for much either. Thankfully the only thing lost was the material possiesions of the time. They were really tough times, in a sense no different then today. I'm sure some if not all of us find ourselves looking at people from the middle east slightly differently.

09-14-2006, 12:44 PM	#35
ChrisCantSkate Thought Police Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: orlando florida Age: 41 Posts: 9,662	lets debate more shit that none of us were alive for... seriously guys, why? just want to get someone on edge? i feel sorry for the past generations dont get me wrong, but im not shedding a tear for someone who wasnt alive even 20 or 30 years after this happened for something more people who arnt alive now decided was needed at the time. why not bring up the spanish inquisition or maybe rome invading greese? damn trojen horse that wasnt fair. slavery is always a good one maybe someone being that up... durring certian courses of time certain ways of doing things are considered the "right" way of doing things for the betterment of a whole state, nation, continent, or world. they most likely will be looked at as wrong in 100 years when hindsight is there to interpret but at the time when push comes to shove, sometimes you end up shoving. whats a grudge worth when it hurts you more than it helps? making a point? good job your now worse off again. your life begings when your born and ends when you die, you can make it worse than it could be by researching and interpreting the past, or you can look forward and make the most of it. hate to let ya know but what was done a few years ago cant be undone or even made "fair", and we're alive for it. how/why would something none of us were alive for be differenet sorry to sound like an ass, been a shitty few days just sayin whats on my mind __________________ Black Vtec Prelude-h22a power'd Many dreams come true, and some have silver linings. I live for my dreams and a pocket full of gold.

09-14-2006, 03:41 PM	#37
ChrisCantSkate Thought Police Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: orlando florida Age: 41 Posts: 9,662	derogative i understand, ive been called white in a derogative way but when they arnt is it worth it? im not specifically talking your situation, in general __________________ Black Vtec Prelude-h22a power'd Many dreams come true, and some have silver linings. I live for my dreams and a pocket full of gold.

09-14-2006, 04:05 PM	#38
Robert R-Tard Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 612	I get called a cannuk but I dont lose sleep over it.

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