Alberto Gonzales...owned

[GT40FIED]

While giving a speech at Georgetown University Law School trying to justify the illegal and unauthorized surveillance of U.S. citizens, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales got throughly and utterly owned by a class of future lawyers. Right in the middle of his speech the entire class simply stood up and turned their back to him. Making matters worse, a second smaller group of students entered carrying a simple banner quoting Benjamin Franklin. Luckily, Gonzales' speech was short and followed by a panel discussion where his argument was ripped in half by PRE LAW students. One of them was quoted as saying:

When you're a law student, they tell you that if you can't argue the law, argue the facts. They also tell you if you can't argue the facts, argue the law. If you can't argue either, apparently, the solution is to go on a public relations offensive and make it a political issue... to say over and over again "it's lawful", and to think that the American people will somehow come to believe this if we say it often enough.

Finally...lawyers America can be proud of.

[Wren57]

This was obviously a premeditated demonstration... so why even invite someone to speak to you if you just plan on shitting on them? Assholes... debating Gonzales on issues is fine, and even having a banner I would consider fine, but to turn your back to a man you invited to speak to you is plain rude no matter who you are or who is speaking.

[GT40FIED]

Judging by their reaction, I seriously doubt that the students were the ones that invited him. Even if they did, maybe they thought he'd actually have something intelligent to say rather than just covering up for his boss.

[IALuder]

i can see what your both arguing here. but the fact is the students dont invite him to the school the school board does.

they shouldnt have done it the way they did. but its about time someone did something to show they stand agianst this BS.

[GT40FIED]

I honestly think in the realm of things they could've done, what they did was absolutely perfect to get their point across. The could have shouted him down, booed and hissed him until he shut up, or even started throwing shit. Instead they simply turned their backs as a way to say "we're not listening to your shit anymore". A similar thing happened when The Governator (I'm not even gonna take a shot at spelling that douche bag's last name) gave a speech at some college except a lot of other people were booing. That was messy. The fact that his argument got torn apart on review by a bunch of pre-law students signals even more how problematic the situation had become. If you're essentially the most powerful man in the American legal system and pre-law students are tearing you apart, you know your argument is bullshit.

[AzCivic]

students...always thinking they know whats best for the world, lol. They should skip class and protest to really show the government a thing or two.

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

students...always thinking they know whats best for the world, lol. They should skip class and protest to really show the government a thing or two.

Man between you and wren can you guys EVER address the point at hand instead of the circumstance surrounding it???

Or maybe stick to the FACTS of THIS example instead of blurring the lines into generalities...

Keep it simple...

So you guys are saying that Ben Franklin was a dumbass and GWB is smart and knows a lot about gov't and politics?

Seems to me that the only one who's "thinking they know wahts best for the world" is freaking bush... I didn't hear a world wide cry for Iraqi freedom... I heard ONE guy and his drummed up intelligence... (which wasn't really convincing in the first place IMO (and you can take that as me thinking all the liberals who voted for war are either dirt stupid or pussies and liars if they're saying they did it based on his intelligence)).

[V8killimports]

Umm.. I don't think you can call that owned. That's like me putting a bar of soap in your coffee and saying "got you good you fucker" like it took a lot of thoguht. Yea, that's just childish. They had an opportunity to enter a debate, and instead did what you would expect a bunch of 5th graders to do.

I find it funny how these SAME people are ona witch hunt to find the person responsible for 9/11, and cry out for justice, and punish the one responsible.. Why didn't we know about it? OMFG the government doesn't do shit to protect us.. What the fuck do they expect? Magical gnomes and fairy dust along with a level 7 wizard to form a magical barrier (not good against ice attack and acid attack by the way)? I mean what the FUCK do they think that they can do better. If it helps find these fuckers then by all means listen in on people they believe to be a threat. And to make it clear it's not like they were listening to people having phone sex with eachother... they listen to a certain demographic that had been in the country a certain amount of time, making phone calls to certain places overseas.

On a side note... don't think too much of these people. These are the same scumbag motherfucker lawyers that will be working oh so hard to get people off for reasons of insanity for say.. oh I don't know.. drowning their children.

[Robert]

Saidly I think the people in power are doing the best they can. No point rubbing mistakes in their face. Hopefully they can learn from it.

This whole show down thing these students did is rather childish at best, though they have a point it was the wrong place to voice it.

[GT40FIED]

Well Rob, to me the problem is that these wouldn't be mistakes if they hadn't been caught. I mean...who knows how many terrible ideas are in effect right now and the main problem is that no one knows about them? The problem is so widespread that the federal government is actually trying to pass laws so that they can jail whistleblowers. Essentially, they want to shut up anyone who exposes their flaws. I agree in not rubbing their noses in it, but I'm not sure exposing such flaws or voicing your disapproval with them would count as "rubbing their noses in it".

As for what the kids did...I guess I see it as making the best of a bad situation. I mean sure, maybe a classroom is the wrong place and time to voice your political views (unless it's a poli-sci class), but how else would you let someone know of the fact that you don't approve of what they're doing? You can't turn your back to someone who's not there. That...and it seemed to me that, while certainly politically motivated, many of these kids also took major issue with his interpretation of the law, as well. Call it a crime of opportunity, I guess. If he hadn't been there in person they wouldn't have had any chance to voice their opinion so it becomes a bit of circular logic, I suppose.

[Wren57]

Originally Posted by nonovurbizniz

Man between you and wren can you guys EVER address the point at hand instead of the circumstance surrounding it???

Um... the thread is about a protest. I addressed the protest. WTF?

If you'd like to discuss wiretapping and increased survelliance, I'll do that... will that make you happy?

Fact: Terrorists struck America
Fact: Terrorists used American flight schools and American communications to coordinate attacks
Fact: The majority of Americans think the attacks could have been prevented- but don't suggest ways it could have been prevented- can you? And if you tell me increased airport security I'm gonna laugh in your face at your hypocrisy.
Fact: Had the feds been listening in on the terrorists phone calls to Afghanistan, it could have been prevented
Fact: The terrorists still want to destroy as many of us as possible
Fact: By listening in on calls, we increase our ability to thwart attacks
Fact: Unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about anyway
Fact: The Constitution allows for expansion of federal powers in three separate places-
look it up if you don't believe me... or I'll do it for you later if you need your hand held through intelligent discussion.
Fact: The US hasn't been attacked since 9/11- must be doing something right

What about this doesn't make sense to you...?

[GT40FIED]

We could do that too.

Honestly, I don't have a problem at all with wiretapping...to an extent. My problem is with HOW they went about it. I mean really...do you think any judge would've turned down an application for a warrant to tap these phones? It doesn't take that long to get such a warrant, either. But they (and by they, I mean Bush, Gonzales, and who knows how many other corrupt assholes) just did an end run around checks and balances and when they were caught basically defended themselves with "I'm the president. Nothing I do is illegal" (a'la Richard Nixon). Really...if they'd just been honest about it and done it the right way, no one would ever have known. Shit...they could've even used FISA. Those courts are sealed so they'd still have their secrecy and it would've all been legal.

[AkimboStylee]

my feelings on this:
I am not a terrorist, and if the government wants to hear me talk to my friends and the stories they tell more power to them, because hell they are funny stories

[VR4_Craver]

Originally Posted by Wren57

Um... the thread is about a protest. I addressed the protest. WTF?

If you'd like to discuss wiretapping and increased survelliance, I'll do that... will that make you happy?

Fact: Terrorists struck America
Fact: Terrorists used American flight schools and American communications to coordinate attacks
Fact: The majority of Americans think the attacks could have been prevented- but don't suggest ways it could have been prevented- can you? And if you tell me increased airport security I'm gonna laugh in your face at your hypocrisy.
Fact: Had the feds been listening in on the terrorists phone calls to Afghanistan, it could have been prevented
Fact: The terrorists still want to destroy as many of us as possible
Fact: By listening in on calls, we increase our ability to thwart attacks
Fact: Unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about anyway
Fact: The Constitution allows for expansion of federal powers in three separate places-
look it up if you don't believe me... or I'll do it for you later if you need your hand held through intelligent discussion.
Fact: The US hasn't been attacked since 9/11- must be doing something right

What about this doesn't make sense to you...?

While I agree with most of your stated facts there are two that really burns my ass. Saying we havent been attack so we must be doing something right is out right stupid. How many other times have we being attacked? Because really, I think 9/11 was the first attack on us soil since Pearl Harbor. No, I dont think bush is doing anything right. But then again I didnt vote so by no means am I saying that it shouldnt be him in office. The other is the privacy thing about having no problem about listening to my phone calls. If, we allow this what while they go to next? Implanting cameras in homes of suspected terrorist with out them knowing?While, it makes some feel safe it pisses more people off. I dont want some douche sitting behind a desk while I have phone sex and describe fantasies about raping cows.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Wren57

Fact: Terrorists struck America
Fact: Terrorists used American flight schools and American communications to coordinate attacks
Fact: The majority of Americans think the attacks could have been prevented- but don't suggest ways it could have been prevented- can you? And if you tell me increased airport security I'm gonna laugh in your face at your hypocrisy.
Fact: Had the feds been listening in on the terrorists phone calls to Afghanistan, it could have been prevented
Fact: The terrorists still want to destroy as many of us as possible
Fact: By listening in on calls, we increase our ability to thwart attacks
Fact: Unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about anyway
Fact: The Constitution allows for expansion of federal powers in three separate places-
look it up if you don't believe me... or I'll do it for you later if you need your hand held through intelligent discussion.
Fact: The US hasn't been attacked since 9/11- must be doing something right

Ok...I'm going to pick this apart piece by piece since much of I have issue with.

Fact 1: I could make a very convincing argument that while terrorists might have carried out the attacks (MIGHT), the U.S. government is just as guilty by way of either facilitating them or covering up for them after the fact by way of propoganda and lies told to the American people. The official government account of 9/11 is so scientifically impossible that it would be laughable if it weren't so horrible. "But Osama confesed!" I know you're saying. If you watch his "confession" video, the man appearing in it is clearly not Osama bin Laden. The man writes and eats with his right hand...the FBI's page on him describes him as left handed. The man in the video is also wearing a gold ring and a gold watch...both of which are forbidden by Islam. Odd behavior for a radical fundamentalist, no?

Fact 2: Really...this has little to do with the discussion at hand. Unless the government wants to tap the cockpit communications of flight school trainees, it's null and void.

Fact 3: The majority of Americans are right...these attacks could have been prevented and in a simple fashion...all someone had to do was pay attention. Briefings to the president and his cabinet as little as one month before the attacks warning of the exact nature of such attacks went completely ignored. Likewise, the pentagon and other departments devised plans dealing with commercial airliners being hijacked and used as weapons. Ironically, these booklets depicted the twin towers in cross hairs.

Fact 4: And if feds had been listening to calls to Kansas they could've prevented the OKC bombings, right? But then again they would've been spying on their own (i.e. white christians) and that would've drawn much sharper criticism. But hey...these people are brown so it's ok to spy on them.

Fact 5: Don't pretend like we're the only one in terrorist's gun sites. Given the chance I'm sure they'd rather go after jews before us. You can't dumb it down to "well they hate us so it's ok". Like it or not, as American citizens they're entitled to the same rights as the rest of us.

Fact 6: That's a hypothetical. There haven't been any attacks thwarted so the idea is either not working or no one's trying to piss us off. I know...Bush said that these wiretaps prevented some attack (in L.A., I think). They didn't...he's lying.

Fact 7: The American people have plenty to worry about, terrorist or not. If you think all they're doing is listening, you're dead wrong. They're no doubt recording things they deem "critical". You know...things that can and will be used against you later whether you like it or not. Remember how we taped phone calls of anti-war vietnam protesters? Yeah...that didn't work out so well for them. And I'm sure the Japanese who were sent to happy fun camps in WWII would disagree with you, too.

Fact 8: The expansions of executive powers in the constitution is generally assumed that we're in a time of war. Legally speaking, congress never declared war so such powers don't come into play. Remember...this is a legal issue and the government had no LEGAL grounds to undertake this surveillance. I guess if Bush wants to argue that fact he could...but then again he'd probably lose.

Fact 9: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we haven't been attacked since 9/11 doesn't mean a thing. It was almost 10 years between the first WTC bombing and the second attack. During that time we sure as shit weren't pounding the pavement like we are now. So if 10 years of lax intelligence gathering produces the same result as 5 years of intense gathering, something is definitely wrong there. I think ,if anything, we've opened ourselves up to more attacks rather than prevented their future occurance. That is to say, it's no longer a matter of if but of when. We can all thank our fearless leader for that. After all...much like James and Elwood Blues...he's on a mission from god.

[Wren57]

Sorry, Steve, I quit reading your rant after "I could make a very convincing argument that while terrorists might have carried out the attacks (MIGHT), the U.S. government is just as guilty by way of either facilitating them or covering up for them". I need to read no further to understand what you think of the situation. Much easier to close your eyes, stick your fingers in your tongue and go "lalala" as you pretend we're the only people in the world than it is to be realistic.

vr4- I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm strongly concerned about where they go from here as well. Survelliance cams are already in place in Chicago and are being implemented in Houston... they are only in public places such as street corners and parks but I think this is really wrong and have a problem with it.

[GT40FIED]

So you regurgitate what you've been fed by the same people that tell you lie after lie while I ask questions and look at the facts, drawing my own conclusions and I'M the one with my eyes closed? In what reality does that make sense? I'm also not sure how attempting to understand the enemy to better deal with them constitutes "pretending we're the only people in the world". You can tow the line of "just kill them" all you want...it won't work. More will spring up in their place and they will probably be even more numerous than what we're dealing with now. Look...if you can't think of an intelligent rebutle, just say so or don't post. You know there's no standing to refute anything I posted (if you've got something, I'd actually like to hear something...anything...from the other side of the table), so just let it go. Don't pretend I'm the one with my head in the sand while you can't even formulate a response other than "I read one line and disagreed, therefore you are wrong". Please man. Talk about ignorant. I said I could make a convincing argument...I didn't claim that it would be fact. In kind, you threw up your hands and just gave up.

[Wren57]

damnit, I knew I should have just stayed out of this thread... but since you've called me out, I guess I have to take the time to respond. Hopefully I can get it done in 15minutes, gotta make that late-night run to dominos.

1: I really don't know what you are arguing here. Are you saying Osama isn't responsible for 9/11 and that some gov't actor played as Osama in a gov't produced tape? Might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

2. It has EVERYTHING to do with the issue. They trained HERE, if we listened to them while they were HERE... duh.

3. So... once again, what is your point? Entire security procedures can't just suddenly change over the course of a month. Why? Because of gov't bureaocracy. How to fix this? Give someone more centralized authority of overall national security... oh wait, you disagree with the NSA and DHS. So, which is it?

4. One (or two) deranged people in bum-fuck USA is SLIGHTLY different than a global terrorist organization hellbent on the destruction of the entire American way of life.

5. The "jews" would retaliate. Osama and crew know this and they know the American people are too much of pussies to support any action against them... you are living proof of this.

6. You really don't think we've thwarted anything in 5 years? Do you really expect the gov't to come out every time and throw a big party and announce it to the world? No, they are doing their jobs.

7. Any evidence brought against a US citizen in court on the premise it was gathered through wiretapping without a warrant would be thrown out... so chill.

8. It may not be legal, but neither is killing thousands of Americans. I personally don't mind if Dick Cheney himself listened to all my phone calls (although It'd be a tremendous waste of time)

9. As for the lax intel, thanks Clinton. Thats what you get with a pussy in power. Do you really think we have zero more info now than we did 5 years ago? What do you think all the soldiers on the ground do. Do you realize there are special forces in Afghanistan that blend in with the natives and gather info that way? We've caught a sh!tload of terrorists on the basis of info, how can you continue to believe we know nothing? Stop watching the Daily Show, that isn't real news.

Wren (runs out the door)

[GT40FIED]

One more time...with feeling!

1. Well I haven't really argued anything yet. If I were to argue something it would be that our government is at least just as responsible as the terrorists who carried out the attack because the government facilitated them, if only by lying after the fact. I don't know who's on that tape, but it's sure no Osama. Seriously...go look at it. The guy only bares a vague resemblence. And I'm not saying that ALL of the videos are bogus...just that one. That...and the fact that less than a week after the attacks Osama was quoted by a newspaper denying his involvement.

2. Again with the maybes. Maybe we didn't know who these people were. Maybe 19 guys slipped under the radar in a sea of over 300+ million other people. Maybe we DID know who some of them were and still fell asleep on the job. Hindsight is always 20/20, but you can't just go around spying on people who *might* want to do something bad without a damn good reason.

3. I don't disagree with the NSA or the DHS...I disagree with many of the actions of the NSA and DHS....especially the DHS. If you pay off your credit card in a large amount not consistent with your normal payment patterns, your payment will be held and reported to the DHS while they check you out. After all, the most dangerous thing of all is people paying down debt. Of course things can't change over the course of one month...but things didn't happen over the course of a month. What was the point of all of those war games if it wasn't to prepare ourselves? Dozens of people were given the chance to be on the look out...they fell asleep on watch.

4. It's only different in scope. We didn't pay attention to the christian terrorists because when have christians ever been violent (see: crusades, both inquisitions, and bombing abortion clinics)? If you think it's just two guys, again, you're wrong. We ignore a complex group of people we'd like to regard as crazies (see: The National Alliance, et. al) right here in this country who'd like to destroy the American way of life in favor of a group of people half a world away who'd like to do the same. Makes sense. Oh...wait.

5. Sure the jewish folks would retaliate...it's their priviledge to do so. It's such a shame we didn't. Oh wait...maybe we did. Maybe that's when we sent wave after wave of our troops over there and STOMPED THE LIVING HELL OUT OF DIRT POOR COUNTRIES. I could be wrong, though. There was an allusion in there somewhere...something about me being a pussy. Well, my diluted friend, if there's ever a time when I believe that my way of life or my freedom is truely threatened, I'll be the first one to pick up a gun and fight for it. The only people making such threats now are my own government...but they're empty threats. Don't mistake my non-war-drum-beating efforts to understand people as acceptance.

6. No...I really don't think we've thwarted much of anything in 5 years. This administration sure likes to pat itself on the back so I'm betting we'd have heard something. But hey...we sure did a bang up job protecting the USS Cole, didn't we? Oh...wait. I'm sure we've learned things. Things that will go in someone's folder and get locked away in a moldy basement until the next attack comes so we can claim that we had NO idea he would do that.

7. Then why are we even having this debate? If information against a terrorist is gathered illegally, we can't arrest him because the method of intelligence gathering is illegal. In that event, we wouldn't be able to arrest him until he physically carried out an attack (remember, you can't pin a conspiracy charge on someone with illegal info so arresting him before hand does no good). So in what way does any of this help?

8. You're right...it's not legal. And just in case, from now on all of my calls will contain the phrase "Dick Chaney is the devil" just in case he IS listening. That would kick so much ass.

9. I know you think Clinton was Satan because...well...all your Young Republican friends told you so, but really everyone gets the blame here...Clinton included. Everyone was operating under the pretext that nobody had the balls to attack us...much less 19 guys who were by and large from our friends in the Kingdom Of Saud. In that light,crucial reports got passed over and as a result our own people suffered the consequences. There's really no shortage of blame on this one. Sure...we've captured terrorists...but there will always be more where they came from. Waving some 2nd Lt. from Al Qaeda in front of a camera means nothing. That just means that the 3rd in line gets a promotion.