Alberto Gonzales...owned

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

students...always thinking they know whats best for the world, lol. They should skip class and protest to really show the government a thing or two.

Man between you and wren can you guys EVER address the point at hand instead of the circumstance surrounding it???

Or maybe stick to the FACTS of THIS example instead of blurring the lines into generalities...

Keep it simple...

So you guys are saying that Ben Franklin was a dumbass and GWB is smart and knows a lot about gov't and politics?

Seems to me that the only one who's "thinking they know wahts best for the world" is freaking bush... I didn't hear a world wide cry for Iraqi freedom... I heard ONE guy and his drummed up intelligence... (which wasn't really convincing in the first place IMO (and you can take that as me thinking all the liberals who voted for war are either dirt stupid or pussies and liars if they're saying they did it based on his intelligence)).

[V8killimports]

Umm.. I don't think you can call that owned. That's like me putting a bar of soap in your coffee and saying "got you good you fucker" like it took a lot of thoguht. Yea, that's just childish. They had an opportunity to enter a debate, and instead did what you would expect a bunch of 5th graders to do.

I find it funny how these SAME people are ona witch hunt to find the person responsible for 9/11, and cry out for justice, and punish the one responsible.. Why didn't we know about it? OMFG the government doesn't do shit to protect us.. What the fuck do they expect? Magical gnomes and fairy dust along with a level 7 wizard to form a magical barrier (not good against ice attack and acid attack by the way)? I mean what the FUCK do they think that they can do better. If it helps find these fuckers then by all means listen in on people they believe to be a threat. And to make it clear it's not like they were listening to people having phone sex with eachother... they listen to a certain demographic that had been in the country a certain amount of time, making phone calls to certain places overseas.

On a side note... don't think too much of these people. These are the same scumbag motherfucker lawyers that will be working oh so hard to get people off for reasons of insanity for say.. oh I don't know.. drowning their children.

[Wren57]

Originally Posted by nonovurbizniz

Man between you and wren can you guys EVER address the point at hand instead of the circumstance surrounding it???

Um... the thread is about a protest. I addressed the protest. WTF?

If you'd like to discuss wiretapping and increased survelliance, I'll do that... will that make you happy?

Fact: Terrorists struck America
Fact: Terrorists used American flight schools and American communications to coordinate attacks
Fact: The majority of Americans think the attacks could have been prevented- but don't suggest ways it could have been prevented- can you? And if you tell me increased airport security I'm gonna laugh in your face at your hypocrisy.
Fact: Had the feds been listening in on the terrorists phone calls to Afghanistan, it could have been prevented
Fact: The terrorists still want to destroy as many of us as possible
Fact: By listening in on calls, we increase our ability to thwart attacks
Fact: Unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about anyway
Fact: The Constitution allows for expansion of federal powers in three separate places-
look it up if you don't believe me... or I'll do it for you later if you need your hand held through intelligent discussion.
Fact: The US hasn't been attacked since 9/11- must be doing something right

What about this doesn't make sense to you...?

[GT40FIED]

We could do that too.

Honestly, I don't have a problem at all with wiretapping...to an extent. My problem is with HOW they went about it. I mean really...do you think any judge would've turned down an application for a warrant to tap these phones? It doesn't take that long to get such a warrant, either. But they (and by they, I mean Bush, Gonzales, and who knows how many other corrupt assholes) just did an end run around checks and balances and when they were caught basically defended themselves with "I'm the president. Nothing I do is illegal" (a'la Richard Nixon). Really...if they'd just been honest about it and done it the right way, no one would ever have known. Shit...they could've even used FISA. Those courts are sealed so they'd still have their secrecy and it would've all been legal.

[VR4_Craver]

Originally Posted by Wren57

Um... the thread is about a protest. I addressed the protest. WTF?

If you'd like to discuss wiretapping and increased survelliance, I'll do that... will that make you happy?

Fact: Terrorists struck America
Fact: Terrorists used American flight schools and American communications to coordinate attacks
Fact: The majority of Americans think the attacks could have been prevented- but don't suggest ways it could have been prevented- can you? And if you tell me increased airport security I'm gonna laugh in your face at your hypocrisy.
Fact: Had the feds been listening in on the terrorists phone calls to Afghanistan, it could have been prevented
Fact: The terrorists still want to destroy as many of us as possible
Fact: By listening in on calls, we increase our ability to thwart attacks
Fact: Unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about anyway
Fact: The Constitution allows for expansion of federal powers in three separate places-
look it up if you don't believe me... or I'll do it for you later if you need your hand held through intelligent discussion.
Fact: The US hasn't been attacked since 9/11- must be doing something right

What about this doesn't make sense to you...?

While I agree with most of your stated facts there are two that really burns my ass. Saying we havent been attack so we must be doing something right is out right stupid. How many other times have we being attacked? Because really, I think 9/11 was the first attack on us soil since Pearl Harbor. No, I dont think bush is doing anything right. But then again I didnt vote so by no means am I saying that it shouldnt be him in office. The other is the privacy thing about having no problem about listening to my phone calls. If, we allow this what while they go to next? Implanting cameras in homes of suspected terrorist with out them knowing?While, it makes some feel safe it pisses more people off. I dont want some douche sitting behind a desk while I have phone sex and describe fantasies about raping cows.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Wren57

Fact: Terrorists struck America
Fact: Terrorists used American flight schools and American communications to coordinate attacks
Fact: The majority of Americans think the attacks could have been prevented- but don't suggest ways it could have been prevented- can you? And if you tell me increased airport security I'm gonna laugh in your face at your hypocrisy.
Fact: Had the feds been listening in on the terrorists phone calls to Afghanistan, it could have been prevented
Fact: The terrorists still want to destroy as many of us as possible
Fact: By listening in on calls, we increase our ability to thwart attacks
Fact: Unless you are a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about anyway
Fact: The Constitution allows for expansion of federal powers in three separate places-
look it up if you don't believe me... or I'll do it for you later if you need your hand held through intelligent discussion.
Fact: The US hasn't been attacked since 9/11- must be doing something right

Ok...I'm going to pick this apart piece by piece since much of I have issue with.

Fact 1: I could make a very convincing argument that while terrorists might have carried out the attacks (MIGHT), the U.S. government is just as guilty by way of either facilitating them or covering up for them after the fact by way of propoganda and lies told to the American people. The official government account of 9/11 is so scientifically impossible that it would be laughable if it weren't so horrible. "But Osama confesed!" I know you're saying. If you watch his "confession" video, the man appearing in it is clearly not Osama bin Laden. The man writes and eats with his right hand...the FBI's page on him describes him as left handed. The man in the video is also wearing a gold ring and a gold watch...both of which are forbidden by Islam. Odd behavior for a radical fundamentalist, no?

Fact 2: Really...this has little to do with the discussion at hand. Unless the government wants to tap the cockpit communications of flight school trainees, it's null and void.

Fact 3: The majority of Americans are right...these attacks could have been prevented and in a simple fashion...all someone had to do was pay attention. Briefings to the president and his cabinet as little as one month before the attacks warning of the exact nature of such attacks went completely ignored. Likewise, the pentagon and other departments devised plans dealing with commercial airliners being hijacked and used as weapons. Ironically, these booklets depicted the twin towers in cross hairs.

Fact 4: And if feds had been listening to calls to Kansas they could've prevented the OKC bombings, right? But then again they would've been spying on their own (i.e. white christians) and that would've drawn much sharper criticism. But hey...these people are brown so it's ok to spy on them.

Fact 5: Don't pretend like we're the only one in terrorist's gun sites. Given the chance I'm sure they'd rather go after jews before us. You can't dumb it down to "well they hate us so it's ok". Like it or not, as American citizens they're entitled to the same rights as the rest of us.

Fact 6: That's a hypothetical. There haven't been any attacks thwarted so the idea is either not working or no one's trying to piss us off. I know...Bush said that these wiretaps prevented some attack (in L.A., I think). They didn't...he's lying.

Fact 7: The American people have plenty to worry about, terrorist or not. If you think all they're doing is listening, you're dead wrong. They're no doubt recording things they deem "critical". You know...things that can and will be used against you later whether you like it or not. Remember how we taped phone calls of anti-war vietnam protesters? Yeah...that didn't work out so well for them. And I'm sure the Japanese who were sent to happy fun camps in WWII would disagree with you, too.

Fact 8: The expansions of executive powers in the constitution is generally assumed that we're in a time of war. Legally speaking, congress never declared war so such powers don't come into play. Remember...this is a legal issue and the government had no LEGAL grounds to undertake this surveillance. I guess if Bush wants to argue that fact he could...but then again he'd probably lose.

Fact 9: The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because we haven't been attacked since 9/11 doesn't mean a thing. It was almost 10 years between the first WTC bombing and the second attack. During that time we sure as shit weren't pounding the pavement like we are now. So if 10 years of lax intelligence gathering produces the same result as 5 years of intense gathering, something is definitely wrong there. I think ,if anything, we've opened ourselves up to more attacks rather than prevented their future occurance. That is to say, it's no longer a matter of if but of when. We can all thank our fearless leader for that. After all...much like James and Elwood Blues...he's on a mission from god.