"Why should I swap my D series out?"

[pdiggitydogg]

This is the one, the only, 'D vs B' thread. If you are wondering whether or not to swap out your D for a B...you came to the right place.
A 'no holds barred' thread, where anything goes (within the language limits...). Voice your opinion, experience, thoughts, and questions right here.
If you have a situation on another thread with 'D vs B', please come here and start the bickering again. Im not moderating this post unless I hear "So and so called me a little turd and said my mom was fat" or whatever...then I'll edit that part out.

(A good reference - http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=878010 )

Have at it...(anyone is welcome to play either side of the field, of course)

I'll start:
Why would anyone want to swap out a perfectly good D16 motor? I mean for the price of a B16 you could easily build the D up to totally kick its ass on the streets and the strip.
A complete B16 SiR2 swap at a good price costs around $2k...ok... For that cost I could bore the D to 1.7xL making essentially a B18, I could port and polish the head @ a 5angle job, and prep the motor for serious boost or N2O. Even after all that I would probably have some money left over to upgrade at least some of the valvetrain so it could rev to 9K or higher. With boost that would put down some serious numbers.
So...why the hell should I spend all that money on an engine that has the same displacement??

[Shaved &/or Laid]

because all teh above mentioned stuff can be done to a B.

and some people have the unfortunate 250,000 mile D series that doesnt run, and burned oil when it did.

[pdiggitydogg]

sure, but then youre spending twice as much
and then another few grand (or more) on a turbo

Originally posted by Shaved &/or Laid
because all teh above mentioned stuff can be done to a B.

and some people have the unfortunate 250,000 mile D series that doesnt run, and burned oil when it did.

http://www.zex.com/Community/Gallery/

exactly why i would NOT swap...

[Shaved &/or Laid]

but thats not a streetable car

it prolly runs on 110 octane too

Originally posted by Shaved &/or Laid
but thats not a streetable car

it prolly runs on 110 octane too

the SECOND car on that page

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

If you have 3 g's to spend.... what would you do with it? put it towards the D and have a NICE turbo setup that can easily outrun an SI with I/H/E... the choice is yours...

sure the B series respond well to minor bolt ons but in the end that's all you've got...minor bolt ons... whereas the D may barely gain anythin' out of I/H/E but if you go the proper route (turbo) then you have nearly limitless potential out of the D!

Now i know that you "B People" are gonna start arguin' that.. 'well if turbo the b then my b is faster than your d...' Yes, your right but at what expense, in the end you'll have a faster car but also you would have spent more money....

If you have alot of budget then go build up a B, no one is stoppin' you but for me, i already have a great engine that is running strong and im not about to waste it for an extra camshaft. And if you have a really big budget then buy an EVO or somethin'..

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
Now i know that you "B People" are gonna start arguin' that.. 'well if turbo the b then my b is faster than your d...' Yes,

no true.. you can only go so fast.. with a fwd STREETABLE suspension.. and beyond that... i really dont believe (in the practical relm) that a lightly built b and a lightly build d are that differant...

[Shaved &/or Laid]

but, n20 B > boosted D

I would like to raise the question of reliability and streetability. A Turbo Dseries car that makes 300whp will be fast yes, but it will not be a streetable car, thus taking the whole daily driver aspect away from it.
It will guzzle mad gas, have insane turbo lag, and be impossible to drive in the wintertime (if you live where i do - yeah NE!).

Now consider this. If i decided to put juice on my car (wet kit of coures - thanks OC), i would be able to make much more power than a Dseries that is boosting on stock internals, and my car would still be a great daily driver which is capable of running 13's.

I would take functionality and reliability over cheap power any day - even if it does cost a lil more.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

my thoughts exactly.

[pdiggitydogg]

Who said anything about 300whp?
So far, lets face it, we're all talking about our daily drivers. We dont need that much power...we probably dont even need 200whp...though it is much more feasible (in either engine).
I think the majority of the people who claim a b16 is an almost pointless upgrade is because it is the same displacement. Why not upgrade to b18?
I mean, if you are planning on building up/upgrading the b16, why not just save money and go for an engine that is, if we go by the standard thinking, a superior motor? We all know that the majority of the "world's fastest hondas" run with turbo GSR's.

Originally posted by oc civic
the SECOND car on that page

Functionality is better than cheep power.

That is a gutted hatch driven by a trained professional with no ac or powersteering and slicks (probably running on race gas - its too bad they dont say). Thats the only way a 178 whp car can hit a 13.5.

Now, if i did those same mods to my car i would run the same time or better, plus i get to have full interior, street tires, ect.


I would rather have a nice looking, comfortable car that runs a 13 than a Piece of sheet metal with a rocket on it that does the same thing.

[not ment to be offensive]
I think its funney how the article on that page says that ZEX is gonna swap in a STOCK B18 and hit 12's. If you want the piece of sheet metal with a rocket, then build ur D.[/not ment to be offensive]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
I mean, if you are planning on building up/upgrading the b16, why not just save money and go for an engine that is, if we go by the standard thinking, a superior motor? We all know that the majority of the "world's fastest hondas" run with turbo GSR's.

The difference between my motor and a D16 is 45 hp and 4lbs of torque.

My motor = 170hp
GSR = 170hp

**I dont see a problem here**

-neither do the morons who drive GSR's that i have beaten in races.

The difference between an SiRII and a D16 is a LOT bigger than the diff between an SiRII and a B18C (woowoo, a wopping 2 tenths of a liter).

Anybody who says a D can hold its own with a B has no place to say that a .2 of a liter is a big advantage when you are missing 45hp.

[pdiggitydogg]

If we're talking jdm engines then the gsr/sir-g gets 178crank and 18more ft lbs
[not to be mean] And if youre racing usdm gsr's then I would hope that you'd win...youre 200+ lbs lighter and its the same exact hp rating (sure torque is different though)
Sure, the difference isnt as large, but it being already nearly 1.8L gives it a much more open field to play with, if we're mentioning that.

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
If we're talking jdm engines then the gsr/sir-g gets 178crank and 18more ft lbs
[not to be mean] And if youre racing usdm gsr's then I would hope that you'd win...youre 200+ lbs lighter and its the same exact hp rating (sure torque is different though)
Sure, the difference isnt as large, but it being already nearly 1.8L gives it a much more open field to play with, if we're mentioning that.

If .2 of a liter and 8 more hp is a big deal, then why have you not swaped your motor? I have 45 hp on you - now thats a big deal.

Oh ya, and check the price on a JDM B18C - I could take 600$ of the Extra 1.2K the JDM B18C costs and make my motor out perform it.

Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B18C and B16A to make it worth the extra $1.2K.

[pdiggitydogg]

Personally, I havent swapped my motor yet becuase I dont feel the need to right now and I need to pay for school...other than that, no reason.
Yes, you have 45hp on me...and only 9ft lbs of torque
youre famous quote of the day "hp doesnt win races...torque does"
I actually have run my y8 against a friends b16...I cant say that I was too impressed. Of course he came out on top, but it wasnt blazing speed from my vantage point.

Dont get me wrong, Im not against the b16 at all. I like the "torqueless wonder"
Im merely playing the antagonist of both sides (watch, in a few posts I'll jump on the D's)

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
Personally, I havent swapped my motor yet becuase I dont feel the need to right now and I need to pay for school...other than that, no reason.
Yes, you have 45hp on me...and only 9ft lbs of torque
youre famous quote of the day "hp doesnt win races...torque does"
I actually have run my y8 against a friends b16...I cant say that I was too impressed. Of course he came out on top, but it wasnt blazing speed from my vantage point.

Dont get me wrong, Im not against the b16 at all. I like the "torqueless wonder"
Im merely playing the antagonist of both sides (watch, in a few posts I'll jump on the D's)

You didnt answer my question. If the JDM B18C's extra 8hp makes it vastly superior to an almost identical motor of 8 less hp - then why on earth would you waste money building a motor that is obviously inferior (by the standard you yourself established) to another????

[pdiggitydogg]

I told you...Im playing the antagonist of both sides...

However...
The b18 would be superior to the b16 because out of the box its more powerful, safely made into 1.98L giving it even more power, gsr cams are basically the best oe turbo cam honda ever made, drop in ctr pistons (only that) and see upwards of 180-190whp (ive seen dyno's @ Payne Technologies in Troy, Mi), the gsr tranny is, in my opinion, the most well rounded for nearly all applications (na or boost). Moving to the LS, it is easily the most "turo-able" honda motor out there, needing very little work to push high levels of boost, due to the low compression. Always the highly used, yet somewhat pointless option of LSVtec for the most powerful NA B's. The b18b has the highest stock torque rating, though just a smidge over the gsr. If you like to drive in boost then the LS has the best tranny.
Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
I told you...Im playing the antagonist of both sides...

However...
The b18 would be superior to the b16 because out of the box its more powerful, safely made into 1.98L giving it even more power, gsr cams are basically the best oe turbo cam honda ever made, drop in ctr pistons (only that) and see upwards of 180-190whp (ive seen dyno's @ Payne Technologies in Troy, Mi), the gsr tranny is, in my opinion, the most well rounded for nearly all applications (na or boost). Moving to the LS, it is easily the most "turo-able" honda motor out there, needing very little work to push high levels of boost, due to the low compression. Always the highly used, yet somewhat pointless option of LSVtec for the most powerful NA B's. The b18b has the highest stock torque rating, though just a smidge over the gsr. If you like to drive in boost then the LS has the best tranny.
Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

You still didnt answer the question i just asked you which pretains to the topic of this thread (why should i swap my D) which you created.

I will answer it for you.

You should swap your d series Pdiggs, because you yourself just established that a 8hp and .2 of a liter difference between motors is a big deal - now relate this to the fact that your motor has 45hp less than mine, i'd say that is a sizable difference compared to the already Drastic 8hp difference you just identified for us.

Your argument for building a Dseries motor is illogical, perhaps you need to join the dark side . . .

[pdiggitydogg]

No, it isnt illogicial (and my bad for misunderstanding which thing you were referring to - b18 or d series)

I never really said that .2L and 8hp is a big deal....well, in the honda world it tends to be... I was just making a point for the hell of it. Anyways - D vs B

Alright, lets take the issue of cost a little further. You buy a b16...you blow it (chad)...now what? You just spent 2 grand and now you need a new short block. Thats gonna run you another couple hundered at least (what was it chad? $200 something? for your new shortblock?), and thats pretty cheap. If you take the same exact scenario...hell a whole motor AND trans, off a D and kill it, then you can buy a d16z6 for the price of that b16 shortblock! Dont even get me started on the cost of B series heads...wow is that over priced.
But then again, if you built the D right, with correct sleeves and what not, it shouldnt blow under the load that you put on it (as long as you use 1/2 a brain and dont throw ungodly amounts of boost at it). Thats what building does...

Back to what we really need though... A d16 motor, slightly built, and with the right turbo could very, very easily see 250+ whp (even with a small turbo like a greddy kit's 15g), no problem-o...and it would definately be streetable. Once again back to price...it'd probaby cost around the same as a b16.

[AzCivic]

lets make this as simple as possible:

i have 3k$ and i want the most reliable power possible and right now i have a d16z6/y8 do I :

A.) spend about 1200$ or so on internals/bearings/rings and have a basically brand new motor capable of well over 300whp and spend the rest on a custom turbo kit that should add 100hp to the stock 125 with ease. result: new RELIABLE motor making 225crankhp and probably something like 180ftlbs of torque.

OR

B.) spend it on a swap with an unknown history, unknown condition, get something like 35-45 extra hp(no extra torque if going with the b16). resulting in an UNRELIABLE(cause you dont really know the condition of the engine) 160-170crankhp and the same torque that you started with.

[pdiggitydogg]

(dammit AZ...I wanted to be the one to say "unknown condition")

[AzCivic]

oops sorry

[AzCivic]

now the classic b series argument is a b series has more potential, to which i respond "How much power do you wanna make?" most answers are in the 250-350hp range(and rightly so since anything more is only going to be used to smoke the tires), your not even taping into the extra "potential" at those #'s so you spent all this money and time on an engine that theoritically has more potential but you didnt even use it.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

the reliability issue can go any which way. Yes, i was unfortunate enough to get a POS from Hmotors, cause steve is a douche. Not only did i have a bad rod/bearing/what have you, he sent me shitty mounts that fell apart instantly, and forgot to send the bolts.

BUT the majority of swaps are indeed low mileage. It is a gamble. but also consider the technical aspects. Swapping in a motor is relatively easy on the scale of automotive know how. I mean hell, id never touched a motor in my life and i got it done alone with almost no help, except guys like P and Cash.

Now to do the boosted D route, which is indeed powerful, one must know how to rebuild a motor, no ?. I mean, yes i have to do it, and its not that hard for someone who is technically inclined to get through it, but rebuilding leaves a lot of room for a lot of errors. Everything must be PERFECT or youll cause all hell to break looose. And thats just inside the motor. Then you gotta get it dyno tuned, etc etc. Some people might just want something drop in, like me.

I honestly dont hate D's really, when theyre done right. But to do so, you gotta have a good D, and mine finally lost its last leg.

[AzCivic]

my 1200$ estimate included labor of having the internals swaped out.

an engine can have low miles and be unreliable when you dont know how it was taken care of.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

the mystery point personally got me, i prolly got a POS that some japanese kid ragged out. but thats very rare that people get screwed as i do. *cough shot mounting hardware cough*

[Shaved &/or Laid]

thats my D series

[AzCivic]

could you not have had it rebuilt?

[Shaved &/or Laid]

at that point i was fed up with it and wanted to start fresh.

and, i dont regret my decision. sometimes you just get unlucky.

but, i got plans for the B now . Im just tryna make my share of the JDM beast like everyone else, except PDiggs, he wants a EDM beast.

[pdiggitydogg]

SIDE NOTE:
you know why japanese motors are always "low mileage"?
japan has the worlds toughest smog laws...anything older than 3yrs max cant pass emissions.


and I just like the edm goodies
...though they did get a ctr
At least I hooked up my clock right

Originally posted by AzCivic
my 1200$ estimate included labor of having the internals swaped out.

Then you must have a deal we dont.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

well, that might not be with sleeving.

Originally posted by cashizslick
I would like to raise the question of reliability and streetability. A Turbo Dseries car that makes 300whp will be fast yes, but it will not be a streetable car, thus taking the whole daily driver aspect away from it.
It will guzzle mad gas, have insane turbo lag, and be impossible to drive in the wintertime (if you live where i do - yeah NE!).

Now consider this. If i decided to put juice on my car (wet kit of coures - thanks OC), i would be able to make much more power than a Dseries that is boosting on stock internals, and my car would still be a great daily driver which is capable of running 13's.

I would take functionality and reliability over cheap power any day - even if it does cost a lil more.

It seems i have to repeat myself. Nobody is considering the reliability/streetability/functionality issue here.

A Bseries that makes 300whp is gonna be more reliable than a D that makes 300hp. The D is working harder to make the same ammount of power.

Granted, 300 hp is still 300 hp, but when the D has a turbo setup that doesnt hit full boost till 4800rpms and low compression, it wont perform as well as a B16 with a smaller turbo/higher compression setup that makes the same amount of power.

In this case, the B will be a better street car and it could easily be tuned to beat the D at the track (i.e. it would be easier to get more than 300hp).

If the setups yeild the same final power, the car with the B will still be a better car.

Oh ya, and since you can make more power overall with a B, you can also have a system and any other rice you want on ur car.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Then you must have a deal we dont.

like shaved said, its with out sleeving which isnt necessary.

Az, what do you think of the reliability and functionality issue i just addressed?

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
It seems i have to repeat myself. Nobody is considering the reliability/streetability/functionality issue here.

A Bseries that makes 300whp is gonna be more reliable than a D that makes 300hp. The D is working harder to make the same ammount of power.

Granted, 300 hp is still 300 hp, but when the D has a turbo setup that doesnt hit full boost till 4800rpms and low compression, it wont perform as well as a B16 with a smaller turbo/higher compression setup that makes the same amount of power.

In this case, the B will be a better street car and it could easily be tuned to beat the D at the track (i.e. it would be easier to get more than 300hp).

If the setups yeild the same final power, the car with the B will still be a better car.

Oh ya, and since you can make more power overall with a B, you can also have a system and any other rice you want on ur car.

your making a bunch of assumptions, like why do you assume you have to go to a low compression with a dseries motor? why do you assume boost wont come on until 4800? why do you assume one engine is "working harder" than another? why do you assume that if you turbocharge a dseries engine its not streetable?

and i did bring up reliability in my first post.

also if 2 civics are at the track making exactly 300hp(one a d other a b); ones gonna have money left over in thier over all budget(they gotta be the same right?) for about 3 grand worth of suspension/tires/drivetrain/valvetrain/nitrous/resleeving etc, not all them obviously.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by AzCivic
lets make this as simple as possible:

i have 3k$ and i want the most reliable power possible and right now i have a d16z6/y8 do I :

A.) spend about 1200$ or so on internals/bearings/rings and have a basically brand new motor capable of well over 300whp and spend the rest on a custom turbo kit that should add 100hp to the stock 125 with ease. result: new RELIABLE motor making 225crankhp and probably something like 180ftlbs of torque.

OR

B.) spend it on a swap with an unknown history, unknown condition, get something like 35-45 extra hp(no extra torque if going with the b16). resulting in an UNRELIABLE(cause you dont really know the condition of the engine) 160-170crankhp and the same torque that you started with.

My ANSWER is "A"!


that's my final answer!

Originally posted by AzCivic
your making a bunch of assumptions, like why do you assume you have to go to a low compression with a dseries motor? why do you assume boost wont come on until 4800? why do you assume one engine is "working harder" than another? why do you assume that if you turbocharge a dseries engine its not streetable?

and i did bring up reliability in my first post.

also if 2 civics are at the track making exactly 300hp(one a d other a b); ones gonna have money left over in thier over all budget(they gotta be the same right?) for about 3 grand worth of suspension/tires/drivetrain/valvetrain/nitrous/resleeving etc, not all them obviously.

The d series will have to have a low comp bigger laggier turbo setup to make the same power as a B with a normal sized quick spooling turbo.

Thats why - yes the D would be cheeper to make, but, its quality before quantity.

Like i said earlier - i'd rather have a nice car with a lil more money into it than a gutted car with no interior and a D just to save some money.