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Old 09-14-2001, 04:55 AM   #1
2ndGenTeg
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LS/VTEC- Don't Believe the Hype

If it was all that great, Honda would have done it in the first place. Submitted for your approval, my thesis on why LS/VTEC is a bad idea.
  • What is LS/VTEC?
  • Why would Honda do that?
  • What is R/S?
  • Why a low R/S is bad for reliability
  • What is power, exactly, and how do Hondas make it?
  • B Series, by the numbers
  • How VTEC works, and why it lives at high RPMs
  • Why it doesn't all fit together

Last edited by 2ndGenTeg : 09-16-2001 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 09-14-2001, 05:03 AM   #2
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What is LS/VTEC?

A quick tutorial for anyone who doesn't already know.

LS/VTEC is using a B18A or B18B block (referred to as an LS block, even though it was found in the RS, LS, and GS) and mating it with any of the DOHC VTEC heads- the B16A, B17A, or B18C. The principle is to use the larger displacement of the LS block (READ: higher torque) and mate it with the high end power of VTEC. I'm also sure you've heard of CR-VTEC, which is a very similar idea. It uses the B20Z block of the CR-V (NOT the B20A of the Prelude Si, for reasons that will become obvious later) to achieve the same effect, only on a grander scale. What you end up with is an engine commonly referred to as a "Frankenstein" setup, and it's all the rage these days.

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Old 09-14-2001, 05:08 AM   #3
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Why would Honda do that?

So why in the world would Honda put us in such a situation- having to build these incredible motors all by ourselves? Why would they knowingly decrease displacement and torque in a car being manufactured to be faster than its lower-trimmed breathen?

Look at it, too, from a manufacturing standpoint- Honda is already making the higher displacement B18A and B blocks (blocks are identical, only difference was in the head), so why go to the extra time and expense of developing and manufacturing a separate block, especially if it will decrease output?

The answer is easy: R/S.

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Old 09-14-2001, 05:15 AM   #4
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What is R/S?

R/S is the abbreviation for rod to stroke ratio. It is the ratio of the length of the connecting rod to the length of the piston stroke, or the distance the piston travels from the top to the bottom of its stroke. As the ratio gets lower, the amount of stress on engine internals increases exponentially, killing long-term reliability. The higher the number is, the slower the piston is traveling, killing power output.

The ideal R/S is 1.75:1 (Three cheers for the B16A, at a near-perfect 1.74:1!).
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Old 09-14-2001, 05:29 AM   #5
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Why a low R/S is bad for reliability

A low R/S means the rod will be closer to a horizontal angle on its upstroke. This means that more of its force will be pushing the piston horizontally, rather than vertically. What does this mean for your engine? Two things.

1. There will be more stress on the sides and in the center of the rod, rather than on its ends, leaving the rod more vulnerable to breaking. Picture a straw. This is no special straw, just an ordinary drinking straw. Is it going to be easier to bend this straw by applying pressure onto its ends, or at its center? Now think of your poor connecting rods.

2. There will be more stress on your cylinder walls. Once again, the rod is pushing the piston at a more horizontal angle- right into your cylinder walls, rather than up and through them. The risk here is double: A. Putting that piston right through the cylinder wall. B. The cylinder wall will actually flex under the pressure, causing the shape to turn from a circle to an oval or oblong shape. This causes the loss of the seal created by the piston rings. What happens? A small amount of oil could slip past into the combustion chamber. Bad things happen from here: The oil gets combusted, leaving nasty carbon deposits in your combustion chamber and exhaust ports- not a good thing for flow or valve sealing.

It's also important to note that as the RPMs increase, so does the amount of stress on your engine's internals.

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Old 09-14-2001, 05:35 AM   #6
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What is power, exactly, and how do Hondas make it?

Warning: Once you see this, you will never look at horsepower and torque readings the same again, especially after you think about it.

P= (TR)/5252

P= power, in horsepower
T= torque, measured in lb/ft
R= Engine speed, in RPMs

Therefore:

Horsepower= (torque x RPMs) / 5252

Try it- pull out a dyno and see what you get.

So from this, we can conclude that if we increase torque or engine speed, we will get more power, right?

Remember that, it's important...

Now how do Hondas make power? Our tiny little 1.6-1.8L engines aren't exactly oozing spare displacement and creating gobs of torque, are they? Hondas make power through revving, and revving high. So why does everyone place so much emphasis on creating torque? It's because all these bolt-ons you see advertised won't raise your redline, but they will increase torque. There's nothing wrong with squeezing every last ounce of torque out of your engine- you should. But trying to get torque from more displacement in a Honda is like trying to fill a swimming pool using a squirt gun. You'll never get enough for it to be useful.

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Old 09-14-2001, 05:59 AM   #7
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B Series, by the numbers

Let's take a closer look at the B series engine blocks.

In the B18 blocks, Honda increases displacement by using a larger crank and increasing stroke (the B20Z also has a slightly larger bore, which is bad for reasons I won't go into here). This, of course, lowers the R/S, since the rod length remains (almost) the same.

B16A:
Rod length: 134 mm
Stroke: 77 mm
R/S: 1.74:1
Displacement: 1587.12 cc

B17A:
rod length: 131.87 mm
Stroke: 81.4 mm
R/S: 1.62:1
Displacement: 1677.81 cc

B18A-B; B20B-Z:
Rod length: 137mm
Stroke: 89mm
R/S: 1.54:1
Displacement: 1834.47 cc

B18C:
Rod length: 137.9 mm
Stroke: 87.2 mm
R/S: 1.58:1
Displacement: 1797.36 cc

B20A (Older Prelude Si)
Rod length: 141.7-142.75 mm
Stroke: 95 mm
R/S: 1.49-1.50:1
Displacement: 1958.14-2056.03 cc

Now you see two things: Why the B20A is widely regarded as a not-so-great engine, and why Honda decreased the displacement from the B18A-B to the B18C. Honda decreased the displacement in the B18C by decreasing the stroke, improving the R/S. This allows the B18C to rev higher, and (Hey!) increase output.

Making sense? I bet you can see where this is going. But wait, there's plenty more...

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Old 09-14-2001, 10:56 AM   #8
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How VTEC works, and why it lives at high RPMs

A quick crash course for anyone unfamiliar with VTEC:

VTEC stands for Variable Valve Timing and Electronic Lift Control. The premise is that at low RPMs and at idle, a less aggressive cam grind is necessary to prevent "loping." Ever hear a pro drag car staging up at the gates? Sounds like it's about to stall. It's because he's running aggressive camshafts, and since the cam is spinning more slowly at idle, the intake valve is still open after combustion has completed. That's what causes loping. At higher RPMs, a more aggressive grind is desirable. The idea is that you want to cram as much air and fuel mixture (A/F) into that combustion chamber as possible, so that when it's ignited you get as grandiose an explosion as possible. So what is good at low RPMs is bad for high RPMs. So what do you do?

If you're Honda, you invent VTEC. What VTEC does is simply to employ different cam grinds at different RPMs. A less aggressive grind at low RPMs for a smooth idle and low to mid range power, and a more aggressive grind up high to produce that high end pop. At a strategically placed "VTEC crossover point," the camshaft switches grind from the less aggressive to the more aggressive.

What determines this point? Hours and hours dyno testing and tuning. If it is set too low, the more aggressive grind will kick in early, bogging down the engine (think "loping" at 3500 RPM). Too high, and the engine is missing out on valuable time it could be spending with the VTEC engaged. So all those fools who spent $400 on a VTEC timer running stock camshafts just so they could get their VTEC to kick in earlier- they're idiots. They just cost themselves a ton of midrange power. The stock crossover point is optimized for stock camshafts.

So when is a VTEC timer necessary? Easy- when you're no longer running stock camshafts.

If you want big power all motor, you go with one of the big players in the cam game- Toda Spec B and C, or Jun Stage 2 and 3, and you accept no substitutes. All (or at least 95%) of the 225+ all motor whp B18s are running these camshafts.

How does this relate to VTEC crossover point? Well, the VTEC grinds on these cams are so aggressive, that the VTEC point needs to be moved up- way up- usually to 6500-7000 RPM. These cams will also make power to 9500+ RPM (READ: Built motor). Run these in conjunction with high compression pistons (at least 10.5:1), and you'll have yourself an all motor wonder. And this, friends, is where torque in Hondas comes from.

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Old 09-14-2001, 11:17 AM   #9
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Why it doesn't all fit together

So here's what we've learned:
  • The LS/VTEC suffers from a bad R/S, due to the fact that it utilizes an LS block with a R/S of 1.54:1.
  • A bad R/S is bad for the engine, especially at high RPMs
  • Hondas make power through revving, and high power through revving higher, high compression, and aggressive camshafts

Because of its R/S ratio, it is not recommended that you rev an LS/VTEC past 6750 RPM on stock internals- the redline of a stock B18A-B. With a fairly built bottom end, it is still not recommended that you rev an LS/VTEC past 7800 RPM.

As we just discussed, in order to get any considerable power out of an engine, aggressive camshafts are a must. In order to get any benefit from aggressive camshafts, the ability to rev the engine high is a necessity. How valuable is VTEC if you can only use it for the top 1000 RPM of your powerband?

LS/VTEC is a fad, and I predict that it will be all but a pleasant memory in a few short years. As soon as kids start snapping rods and putting pistons through cylinder walls, they'll realize how important good engine geometry is. Add that to the fact that they're running stock cams (because it's all their engine can safely handle) and getting burned by kids running Todas or Juns, and they'll wish they had just stuck with their trusty B18C.

Never have I said that the LS/VTEC is an awful motor, and that no one in their right mind should build one. LS/VTEC has been hailed as the biggest thing to hit Honda tuning in years. Import Tuner, Super Street, Honda Tuning, and more have praised the ingenious design, marveled at its torque, and even showed you how to construct this beast in the comfort of your own home. Never do they mention its drawbacks or its subsequent limitations. The intention here is not to discourage someone from building an LS/VTEC. Rather, it is intended to give someone considering one of these hybrids some things to keep in mind before diving into the costly process of building an engine.

Like I said, if it was all that great, Honda would have done it in the first place.

--=Josh=--
2ndGenTeg@hondastyle.com

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Old 09-14-2001, 11:26 AM   #10
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Sources/ Influences

Larry at Endyn
"The best engine will be the best series of compromises."

Katman at FF Squad
"So please... Don't steal any of our cars again. Thanks."

Tuan at SHO
"The more you learn about the factors of making power, the more amazed you become at how good the stock engine really is."
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Old 09-14-2001, 12:03 PM   #11
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Well, I've heard it almost all before, but I still have to say you amaze me Josh! You know WAY too much about Honda engines! I really admire your dedication though... Keep it up!

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Old 09-14-2001, 12:15 PM   #12
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You've heard it all before?! Well now I feel like an idiot for posting up stuff everybody already knows.
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Old 09-14-2001, 12:45 PM   #13
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Bleh! Shut up, you know what I meant... EVERY time we get together we talk about how much you dislike LS/VTEC...so, yes I've heard a lot of it before. But, I think it is incredibly helpful, and very impressive. I was just saying I personally have heard it before from YOU! You know more about Hondas than anyone I know, and you know that. And I didn't say that EVERYONE already knows it, just that I'd heard it before. Sheesh!
:p

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Old 09-14-2001, 02:03 PM   #14
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Most definately a great article. Needs to be submitted into the article forum... Great job.
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Old 09-14-2001, 04:24 PM   #15
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Re: What is R/S?

I applaude you for this effort, bro, but I think you are working under some HUGE misconceptions if you think the LS/VTEC hybrid combination doesn't "fit all together."

Here's a dyno chart for Steve "Omniman" Rothenbuehler's all-motor LS/VTEC. He is one of the originators of the idea.



For those of you that can't read a dyno chart, that's 186.7-HP and 144.2 lb/ft Torque to the wheels. In a Honda brochure that would equate to about 215-HP [15% drivetrain loss]. Not too shabby for a 1.8L motor IMO...

Now, watch this classic video of his LS/VTEC CiViC kicking a F355 Ferrari's ass in the REAL world.

Not bad for a "fad" engine, huh?

After seeing this chart and watching this video, do I really need to explain to anyone on this web site why Honda Corp doesn't want to build these engines and/or put them in 2300 lb. CiViC sh!tboxs --- an 'economy' car that is basically designed for and marketed to white yuppie females??? If so, I'll be glad to...

Come on, bros! Use your heads a little...
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Posted by BlackDeuceCoupe - 2oo0 Honda CiViC FBP HX cOUPe
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Old 09-14-2001, 05:20 PM   #16
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I'm not going to side with anyone on this debate because I don't really understand it enough to know who is right and who is wrong. What I will do is say that I don't for a SECOND believe that that video is telling the whole story. Either the driver of the Ferrari REALLY can't drive or its a kit car. I don't care how good a driver the guy in the Civic is, it is not possible that the 186 hp Civic beat a Ferarri with most likely more than twice that amount of hp, and TONS more torque. Do you have any more information on that video? Like what else, if anything was done to the Civic, if the Ferrari was a kit car or the real thing, etc, etc?? Don't mean to flame man, but i've seen that video before and I didn't belive it then, and I still don't believe it now.

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Old 09-14-2001, 05:30 PM   #17
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Also, not to try and fight anyone's battles for them, but I don't think Josh is suggesting that LS/VTEC doesn't give any upgrade in torque or horsepower, the point he is trying to make (as I see it) is that LS/VTEC is bad for your engine because it makes it WAY more unreliable. In the long run an LS/VTEC engine will not last nearly as long as just the B16a or the B18a or B18b. It seems to me that you haven't proven him wrong by showing the dyno sheet or that video, all you showed was the fact that it indeed makes your car have more power. I don't think that was the issue at hand... I may be wrong, but after reading what he had to say twice that is what I got out of it. Again, not trying to take sides or fight his battles for him, just making a point.

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Old 09-14-2001, 06:43 PM   #18
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Look, I'm not going to beat-up on a fellow mod, unless he starts it first. I help my friends and hurt my enemies. I just happen to like LS/VTEC hybrids and he doesn't. No big deal! No reason to take sides! He spoke his piece V well, and I countered with my views. That's all...

That Ferrari was NOT a kit car. I'll have to explain this later. We have thunderstorms rolling into our area and I need to take our LAN down...

When a guy buys a $150,000 car, he doesn't do bolt-ons and other mods, except for a Borla exhaust or such... That Ferrari was the real thing and probably stock.

I'll offer proof of this later, if you think I'm a liar. I'm probably one of the few ppl on the Internet that took the time to track down the TRUE story behind this incredible video, the CiViC's owner and what mods had been done to it. Here's the motor:
  • B18B block
  • Custom Crower Maxi-Lite connecting rods
  • USDM ITR pistons
  • B16A head with mild porting
  • ITR valvetrain [springs, valves, lost motion assemblies]
  • Crower Ti retainers
  • stock B16A cams
  • Akimoto intake
  • JG 64 mm throttle body
  • ITR intake manifold
  • JDM 98 4-1 exhaust manifold
  • Z.Speed 60 mm stainless exhaust
  • B&M adjustable FPR
  • RC Engineering 310 cc injectors
  • Crane ignition
A stock F355 will do a 13.2 quarter. The VS/VTEC was probably a high 12'er. He got the jump on the Ferrari and held it.

Click here for more info on F355 Ferrari's...

Everything will look either good or bad on paper, depending on how effective the author is. In REAL life, however, LS/VTEC's are a truely brutal and effective combination, and they are relatively cheap to build. That's why they exist - not because of rod angle...
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Posted by BlackDeuceCoupe - 2oo0 Honda CiViC FBP HX cOUPe
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Old 09-15-2001, 03:06 AM   #19
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Yes, I am saying that LS/VTECs are not as reliable as either of their stock donors, the B18C or B18A-B. However, Morgan, I think you missed the point on why they don't create as much power.

Due to their engine geometry, they can't rev as high, which means two things.

1. Remember how revs=power?
2. The best camshafts live at high to stratospheric RPMs. Due to its lower redline, an LS/VTEC can't use them. About the most aggressive camshaft you can employ in an LS/VTEC is the ITR. Anything beefier than that, and you'll only be able to run with VTEC engaged for less than the top 1000 RPM of your rev range.

BDC, your posts further enforce my points. On the dyno, notice how peak horsepower is achieved at about 7700-7800 RPM, and all but ends at 8K. The engine simply isn't capable of revving any higher. Also, notice the camshafts being used- stock B16A cams. With as much work as he's put into that engine, why not use something to produce more power? The answer- there's not a whole lot that will prove beneficial, since the engine won't even rev as high as a stock GS-R or Si. Still, 187 hp isn't bad at all- Until you consider B18Cs making 225 hp at the wheels, all motor. How do they do it? They can rev higher, which means more peak horsepower, and they can run the super aggressive cams like the Todas and Juns.

LS/VTECS exist because they look good on paper. However, once you sit down and take a good long look at what makes power, the LS/VTEC idea doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

If you're saying that Honda doesn't make LS/VTECs because there would be no market for them, then why make GS-Rs and Sis? Same target audience- people who want just a little more performance.
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Old 09-15-2001, 06:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
BDC, your posts further enforce my points. On the dyno, notice how peak horsepower is achieved at about 7700-7800 RPM, and all but ends at 8K. The engine simply isn't capable of revving any higher. Also, notice the camshafts being used- stock B16A cams. With as much work as he's put into that engine, why not use something to produce more power? The answer- there's not a whole lot that will prove beneficial, since the engine won't even rev as high as a stock GS-R or Si. Still, 187 hp isn't bad at all- Until you consider B18Cs making 225 hp at the wheels, all motor. How do they do it? They can rev higher, which means more peak horsepower, and they can run the super aggressive cams like the Todas and Juns.
Okay, that's fine. I was just answering his question[s] about the LS/VTEC CiViC in the CiViC vs. Ferrari video. Here's another Dyno chart for you...



Quote:
Originally posted on ImportReview.com
Horsepower Potential:
This motor has the potential of doing low 11's at the track in a full raced out all motor setting. I would say, staying at 1.8 liter in the LS block, you could achieve well over 220 HP at the wheels SAE corrected. Ours is over 200 at the wheels and the head is not milled, not ported, not polished, not port matched, and is using stock valve train. It just has some decent cams in it. Ours uses 92 octane also. With race gas and higher compression with a head job, 220 seems easy to hit. Its only 17 HP away from where we are now and we are not using the most advanced cams yet. We are also on the stock GS-R fuel pump.

Torque:
This motor pulls in more torque with the same setup than any 1.8 Ltr motor Honda makes...I would say about 8% more torque across the board...Just driving in a straight line, it feels almost like a Prelude motor. Our LS/VTEC has 146 lbs/torque at 200 HP at the wheels. Looking at a Prelude motor, it would have about 160 lbs of torque at 200 HP.

Reliability:
Looking at a Prelude motor...the max HP of the Prelude motor would come in at 7200 RPM or so. Max HP of the LS/VTEC will come in at 8200 RPM or so. So the prelude motor would last longer than the LS/VTEC cause the higher you rev the car...the shorter the engine life... But all in all, the motor is as reliable daily as any other motor. As long as you take care in putting the proper rod bearings in it, new oil pump, new water pump, new coolant, oil changes frequently. And make sure you Teflon tape the tapped oil line in the block. It only gets an average rating for reliability because it is a higher revving motor. RPM = Ruins Peoples Motors. Always will.

Cost:
Here are the parts you need for a great setup..
  • B18b/a block.... $600
  • B18C1 Head...... $1000 VERY hard to get..
  • ITR pistons..... $250
  • ALL new bearings.. $300
  • Block assembly..... $400
  • Balance crank...... $200
  • Head gasket....... $55
  • Re-tap oil line... $100
  • Skunk2 intake manifold $320
  • Type-R throttle body.. $250
  • Wire harness... $200
  • Shift linkage... $150
  • ECU.. GSR.... $300
  • GS-R tranny... $750
  • Fuel Regulator + Guage $175 installed.
  • Cam Gears... $250 installed.
  • Type-R cams.. $450 installed.
  • Valve Adjustment.. $50
  • Motor installation... $800
  • Intake manifold gasket..$25
  • Oil/filter.. $15
  • Axles... $200
  • Header...4-1 $297
  • Cold are intake.. $225
  • New timing belt. $80
  • New oil pump... $150
  • New water pump... $150
  • Dyno Tuning.. $100
  • 270 CC Injectors.. $200 or used prelude..$100
  • Apex V-AFC controller..$320
  • 6 puck clutch $350
  • Resurface flywheel.... $30
and there you have it....a setup with mostly all Honda parts...total bill for that: about...$8542 Now if you were to substitute pistons, rods, and port/polish the head. Then you have a REAL beast on your hands...ready to take on just about anything but motorcycles on the street. That's a FULLY built, no skimping motor you have there. Nobody said going all-motor and being super fast is cheap. That is why the low rating on cost.

Maintenance:
I recommend getting some Mobil 1 motor oil after the first 1,000 mile break in period. That with some good Bosch model #4227 Platinum plugs and you should be good for a long time. Redline water wetter coolant additive also helps. Check the fuel pressure once in a while and make sure its normal or did not come loose. To get a 100, it has to be a stock motor

Summary:
This is a costly setup, but the final result is very satisfying and very fast. All motor HP is stronger than turbo HP or supercharged HP...its a debate but trust me...it is..2 cars the same weight with exactly same tranny...and 200 at the wheels. The all motor car will win every time. Or at least it should. Nothing is 100%. Nowadays, it is not all about going fast alone...it is about HOW you are going so fast...anyone can put a turbo on and go fast. And for gas mileage and daily driving, the all-motor setup is going to be the winner. Currently at around 200 HP at the wheels and about 147 lb/torque our LS/VTEC is going to get some better cams, some valve train and a ported head soon after that. Then some Pistons. What fun this can be!


**Our LS/VTEC did 13.2 at the track when it was pulling down 180 HP at the wheels. Also it looks like a Type-R head, but it is a GS-R head with red valve cover. Remember, you don't need crazy head porting or DFI to make good power. Our motor has no head milling, no porting, no polishing, no port matching, and stock valve train. That is also a Skunk2 manifold that was added after that race where it did consistent 13.2's at 180 HP.

Follow the link below to see pics - ed.

And to you people who don't think stock rods are good...we are using STOCK LS rods with no shot peening and the rev limiter is at 8600 RPM. We have hit that mark hundreds of times. And this car drove to Sacramento (8 hours each way) raced, then drove all the way home with no incident. How is that for reliability?

Is a GS-R head better than a B16A head on an LS/VTEC? Its hard to say...I guess we will have to test it!

**Update: Our LS/VTEC did 12.0@110 in 1.8 ltr form until we retired it in favor of the B20/VTEC. It had 223@ the wheels and 142 lbs of torque to do this time. The car weighed in at 2000.
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Old 09-15-2001, 10:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
...187 hp isn't bad at all- Until you consider B18Cs making 225 hp at the wheels, all motor... On the dyno, notice how peak horsepower is achieved at about 7700-7800 RPM, and all but ends at 8K. The engine simply isn't capable of revving any higher...
Heh! I found another dyno chart for you Josh. 230 HP LS/VTEC @ Umm... how many RPM would you say???



This little stinker only makes 220...



206??? BP...

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Old 09-16-2001, 01:48 AM   #22
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ImportReview, eh? Great site, tons of good information. I've learned a lot from those guys. I hold Atomic Performance in incredibly high regard. An excellent shop that does excellent work. A friend of mine drove all the way out there to have a JDM H22 dropped into his EG. Atomic builds incredible engines, and they do things with engines that defy conventional logic. I encourage anyone with the time and resources to drive there and their engine done- it's well worth it. What is my point, exactly? Results achieved at Atomic Performance can't be used to represent typical reults. I'm not knocking the credibility of the dyno or Atomic- on the contrary. I hold them both in the highest regard. I'm simply saying that unless Atomic builds your engine, don't expect results such as those.

Quote:
...the higher you rev your car.. the shorter the engine life...

Very true. However, 9000 RPM is much harder on an LS block than a GS-R, due to the rod/stroke ratio. That's not debatable. And in order to run those aggressive cams, 9000 RPM is extremely beneficial, if not necessary.

Quote:
...It only gets an average rating for reliability because it is a higher revving motor...

However, the higher revs won't hurt the reliability of a GS-R block as much as the LS block.

I stand corrected- it's possible to rev ANY engine nice and high- with proper precautions. In order to rev an LS/VTEC to high RPMs, more precautions are necessary (READ: $$$ cha-ching!), and it still won't last as long as a comparably built GS-R block, due to the R/S.

Finally, in the top two runs, read the mod lists- no cats. Makes a big difference. Off the top of my head, I know at least 4 GS-Rs topping 225 whp with intact cats.

I'm aware that all things being equal, the car with more displacement will make more power. However, all things are not equal. A GS-R block will rev higher, safer, than an LS block will- undebatable.

"The best engine will be the best series of compromises" ~ Larry at Endyn

My opinion is that the compromise in displacement is well worth the advantages of better engine geometry.

Your opinion is that the compromise in engine geometry is well worth the added displacement.

Bottom line. We could go on for days, I'm sure. But why?
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Old 09-16-2001, 01:44 PM   #23
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Nice. .Learned somethign new!
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Old 09-16-2001, 02:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
"The best engine will be the best series of compromises" ~ Larry at Endyn

My opinion is that the compromise in displacement is well worth the advantages of better engine geometry.

Your opinion is that the compromise in engine geometry is well worth the added displacement.

Bottom line. We could go on for days, I'm sure. But why?
LOL! Well, I won't go into your use of the 'Strawman Attack' again. I never said, "Compromise in engine geometry is well worth the added displacement," and you know it.

This is how I feel...

I know you don't have any experience with domestics. At least, I think it was you that told me that. Anyway, in the domestic world, B-series engines would be roughly analogous to small-block Chevies. And, H-series and F-series motors would be big-blocks.

If I was going to do a swap, my number one choice would be a H22A. You will hear all the same ol' arguments against the H22A as you heard about big-block Chevies. Who cares if it weighs 185 lb. more than a D-16 and 50 lbs. more than a B-16? You can boost a H22A to 675+ HP with relative ease...

The only "compromise" I would be willing to make [in a swap] would be to go the LS/VTEC route. That's the only 'small-block' Honda I would even consider. That "compromise" would involve less displacement, not more. So, once again, you are wrong...

Look, you have your opinion and I have mine. That's fine. Where you step over the line is when you start using dishonest debating tactics.

If you want to believe LS/VTEC engines won't rev above 8K, go ahead. If you want to try to convince others of it, be my guest. If you want to attack my arguments using dishonest debating tactics and faulty logic, that's fine too. I deal with ppl like you every day, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I like it. I debate for a living, and I debate for pleasure.

You're right about one thing. "We could go on for days..." It's up to you, bro. Personally, if the situation was turned, I would just ignore me. You're never gonna win. That's the best way to handle ppl like me...
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Old 09-16-2001, 02:17 PM   #25
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2ndGenTeg, can I have your permission to send this article to Lars Nolden (presidnet of Indysol) so that he may post it on his site?
I found your article to be very informative and I'm sure that it would be of great benefit to anyone who isn't well versed in R/S and what it means in regard to making reliable power.
Lars' e-mail is Indysol@hotmail.com he wanted you to email him when you get the time.

Thanks for the great artcile, its very informative and well written.
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Old 09-17-2001, 01:51 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by 93delsolsi4me
2ndGenTeg, can I have your permission to send this article to Lars Nolden (presidnet of Indysol) so that he may post it on his site?
I found your article to be very informative and I'm sure that it would be of great benefit to anyone who isn't well versed in R/S and what it means in regard to making reliable power.
Lars' e-mail is Indysol@hotmail.com he wanted you to email him when you get the time.

Thanks for the great artcile, its very informative and well written.

Whoa. Consider me flattered.

Tell ya what- that would rock! Thing is, it's still kinda in rough draft mode. Gimme a couple days to get the typos fixed, revise some wording, get permission for and add some pics. Then definitely- I'd be flattered to have someone else post it.

I'd email Lars, but I don't know what to say- "Hey, Jim said to e-mail you. What's up?". But definitely- we'll figure it out and we'll get in touch. If he wants to e-mail me, it's 2ndGenTeg@hondatyle.com- easy.

Thanks to all for your feedback (Including you, BDC).
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Old 09-17-2001, 05:10 AM   #27
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DanG some of you guys have alot of times on your hands. hehehe BUT HEY 2ndGenTeg. NICe Article. I learned alot of Shit. PEaCE YallS.
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Old 09-17-2001, 05:11 AM   #28
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1
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Old 09-18-2001, 10:49 PM   #29
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bdc what is a vs/vtech? i never knew nobody that didnt like vtechs.
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Old 09-19-2001, 07:03 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by DELETE *.*
bdc what is a vs/vtech? i never knew nobody that didnt like vtechs.

HEY DELETE READ THE THREAD FROM THE TOP and you'll KNOW what LS/VTEC is. I actually learned alot from it too.
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Old 09-20-2001, 01:59 AM   #31
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All I'm saying is that you can't use results from Atomic to represent typical results.

Comparing H22s and H23s to B series is unfair (I'm sure there's a debate term for it).

If you choose to go LS/VTEC as opposed to a B18C, you are, in fact, compromising engine geometry in favor of displacement.
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Old 09-22-2001, 05:59 PM   #32
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remember: B18B1=1.54 B18C1/5=1.58

Just so were not saying that Honda made a HUGE change in R/S when going to the high rpm motors. The B18C1/5 are only minimally better in R/S.

However, the mods required for these kinds of revs are sufficient. Most notably are the oil squirters on the bottom side of the cylinder walls. Other than that the only thing the R spec gets is a better balanced (or counter balanced) crank and ... guess what ... STRONGER RODS.

So ... as long as it's realized that the kind of 'WEAR & TEAR' the LS/VTEC induces beyond that of the B18C1/5 is so minimal that considering the time frame of owner ship (typically less than 4.5 years) ... it's not much for concern.

There is NO doubt why Larry (@ Endyne) and friends uses the B17A/93GSR crank for their B20/VTEC applications. And there is nothing more potent than the venerable B16A(preferably 2/3 versions ... but that's only because i'm picky hahahahaha).

I have an LS/VTEC. I have fortified it with forged/lighter connecting rods and lighter pistons (reducing rotational mass is ALWAYS a good thing heh). I have also 'up'd the ante' by taking a very good factory (forged) crank and had it (attached to the lighten'd flywheel and crank-pulley) balanced to 10k rpms.

The only thing i wished i had done was teflon coat either the walls or the pistons (well worth the money for ANY motor).

All-said-and-done ... i typically (when not in traffic) rev the motor past 8500 and the motor has NEVER even given me any reason to worry. I've inspected the rod AND main bearings 3 times since in the past 4k miles and they hardly look like they are being abused. The piston walls are also wearing well ... still see crossings (hone marks) in the cylinder walls at thrust points.

As for the long term??? Hmmm ... mayber in another 2 years i'll find a B20 and a B17A crank! Until then i'll keep hammering!

Enjoy!

oh ... sorry to be so lengthy on my first post ... heh heh
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Old 09-27-2001, 05:35 PM   #33
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Sure Josh...

That's all Gravy Josh, but another big detail you have overlooked, is that 90% of all sportriders don't care if their car lasts until 300,000mi, but whether it goes fast or not. I personally know that my motor's fate is sooner than later, and I'll probably build another LS/VTEC to replace it. Why? Becuase I can get an entire B18A1 for around $300. GS-R Block? At least, AT LEAST twice that. Why not get the extra 2.whatevermm of stroke while I can? But it's good to see that you've been doing your homework. And another thing, if Honda would have inteded that all of our cars be little hot rods, then they would have made them that way. But they didn't.

Oh, and don't forget that Geeser and B16 blocks have oil sprayers for the bottom of the pistons, whereas the LS doesn't. I rev mine up to 8000rpm when necessay, ad it's fine. The key is also driving hard only when you have to.

Sure, this motor is a pain in the arse, I have to fill on 101 octane to satisfy the ping of my CTR pistons in that block, the reason the CR is so high? Longer stroke. in a B16A block, I would have10.8:1 CR, becuase of the short stroke, but with longer stroke, I can acheive a higher CR without getting a rediculously domed piston, and worrying about piston/valve slap.

Anyways, that's all I can pull outta my ass for now, but you do have some solid points.

--Chris
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Old 09-27-2001, 05:45 PM   #34
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And since we're talkin' about it

Josh, here's what the new motor consists of. BTW, where have you been lately?

  • '91 B18A1 Block, bored .25 over
  • '99 B18B CTR Pistons rebalanced by Spoon .25 over (13:1 CR)
  • Complete Balance of recipricating ass'ly
  • '96 B18C1 Head, Port/Polish, JUN 2 Cams, AEM Gears, JG Titanium Retainers, High rev springs
  • '99 B16B CTR Tranny w/ LSD, Meullar 8lb flywheel, ACT xtreme 4 puck
  • V-AFC, AEM CAI, GReddy SP, DC 4-1 SS, AEM Tru-power pullies, B&M FPR

I'm going to dyno it next Thursday.

'--Chris
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Old 11-02-2001, 05:09 AM   #35
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Josh- Question for you....
I'm not a Honda person, a link to your article was posted to streetracing.org and I read it there.

On a B20Z block... what you're saying is that the block doesn't like the high-revs of VTEC due to the R/S?

But what about the B18C block? Doesn't that engine stock have VTEC? The R/S for the B20Z and the B18C are very close; It would seem to me that a VTEC B20 would be just as reliable as a B18C engine would be, assuming they're both driven in the same manner.

Does this sound right?


EDIT: Oh crap... didn't see solarpwrd's post. He said what I wanted to check.
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:02 PM   #36
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Hey, I'm an Integra moderator over at honda-acura.net.

Initially LS/VTEC was taboo because people wanted to do it on the cheap and get good numbers. Obviously the bottom end is going to need proper prep to survive higher revs. And although the r/s ratio is a little less than ideal in the non-vtec blocks, they can be made to rev properly. I personally prefer the B20B/B20Z block, because the added displacement of the B18A/B18B block doesn't quite seem worth it to me.

Balancing the entire reciprocating assembly is a damn good idea. Regardless of r/s, if it's balanced you know it'll spin correctly. Forged rods and pistons are a good idea one for durability, two for lighter weight (read: higher revs) and three because you can raise your compression ratio and make more power. Another commonly overlooked area is the main bearings. Use the ITR pieces. You also need to use the proper dowel pins for the head, otherwise there will be too much stress induced at those points. Finally, there has to be sufficient oiling. Use no less than a GSR or ITR oil pump and a -6 a/n fitting on your oil source for the vtec solenoid and associated systems. After that, all the standard B-series power-increasing tricks apply but you're working with a higher displacement.

So yes, engine geometry is an important factor in building the engine. But, if you look at the additional stress that the geometry of an engine causes and then reinforce the necessary components to deal with that stress, it is no longer an issue.

Also the whole, "torque doesn't matter because you can just rev the engine" argument is off-base. Sure, peak power counts for something, but a flat powerband is a great resource. It allows you to build power more quickly without downshifting which is a great asset in road racing.
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Old 11-03-2001, 03:18 AM   #37
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Yes!

Word to that, my brotha. hehe, yes, you're right. I you look at the specs, the B18A/B is only 1.8mm longer stroke than the GS-R, ad the rods are only .9mm longer. The biggest cause of concern for me is the other differences in the blocks: No oil sprayers cooling and lubricating the bottom of the pistons (sure, my CTR pistons have the high-heat coating on the skirts) and the extenal oil line. But everything else is dandy-- except for breaking things (2 axles, drivers side mount, and upper-rear mount which had the heads snap off the bolts). But if you're not breaking stuff, you're not going fast, right? Oh well, hopefully it will stay minor. But the shortblock is easy to build and machine. Costs about $1000 w/ machine work, maybe a bit more.
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Old 11-10-2001, 01:16 AM   #38
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your wrong about ls-vtec

ls-vtec combines the low end power of an ls or crv engine with the top end power of dohc vtec engines, it has good torque and high wheel hp...the reason honda didnt use it is becuase they arent trying to make a race car, they make economy cars...in lamens terms, a cheap car that does what it needs to, nothing more, if you dont think that ls-vtec is good, check out the dyno's yourself at importreview.com click the dyno's charts and then onthe left side of the page click 1.8 liter, and you will see many dyno's including atleast 5 ls-vtec dyno's almost all of them break 200 hp to the wheels, on stock honda parts, no other honda engine does that...youve got ls-vtec wrong
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Old 03-03-2002, 10:22 AM   #39
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wow, josh i truly admire your effort and knowledge on honda cars, and BDC has proven some very valueable info on the dyno charts. but i think one thing that was overlooked was the fact that Tweaking these cars and squeeze every ounce of performance out of these engines was what started this whole HONDA scene. dont get me wrong i agree with you as far as the r/s ratio and high reving rpm is what give these honda engines the torque and horse power in theory, but dont you think with the proper bottom end build up ls\vtec is not that bad for the streets? i believe that with the proper rods and pistons even the crank ls/vtec can do just as well on the street versus a gsr bottom, i own an 99 gsr and i just purchased an 94 rs and i am looking into ls/vtec for the rs, and along with an turbo charger kit, with all these aftermarket companies out there making parts for these engines i am sure with the corrrect rods and pistons an ls/vtec can pull high torque and horsepower just like all the other out there whose done all the math and figureing out the correct geometry for the motor, keep in mind that tweaking these motors is what started this whole thing. and a high performance street car is whats out there on the streets ripping up the pavement. EXCESSIVE high rpm=a blown motor on the side of the street. i personally just wont rev these engines pass 8500 rpm, even with and reprogramed ecu, this is just my thought and i am not here to take sides on whose right or wrong but to learn on what i dont know about these honda motors. you and BDC's info on the ls/vtec had help me alot. i really like this site with all the info from everyone, thanks
sorry for this long post on my first time to this forum........
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Old 03-28-2002, 10:17 PM   #40
Illusion_Racing
 
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The Ls\vtec is gods gift to a man who's drem is sleep and eat. You figure it out.
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