seriously america!?

[CD5Passion]

And on Monday, North Korea's state-run media accused the United States of harassing it and vowed to respond to any pre-emptive attack "with a relentless annihilating strike and a nuclear war with a mighty nuclear deterrent." (Watch why North Korea is talking about annihilating the U.S. -- 2:04)

The White House has dismissed that threat as "hypothetical." (

isn't it funny to anyone else that we had warning of 9/11 but the government ignored those warnings?

now korea has threatened us and our commander in chief and crew consider a nuclear threat from a capable country "hypothetical"???

Jim Walsh, a national security analyst at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the intent of the test appeared to be aimed at drawing attention back to North Korean demands in the six-party talks. But Walsh said the tests "do not represent an immediate military threat to the United States."

"It's very difficult technology. They very clearly have not mastered it," he said. "Most estimates are they will not master it for another 10 years."

ok so let's wait 10 years until they actually nuke us then we will do soemthing about it right?

At the United Nations, U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said he was "urgently consulting" with other members of the 15-nation Security Council.

President Bush met with Hadley, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as the tests were going on, a senior administration official said. But Bush will go ahead with plans to watch Independence Day fireworks and hold a gathering at the White House for his 60th birthday, the official said.

fuck you bush



full story here
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...korea.missile/



so someone please tell me why we are in the middle east and not in North Korea?...oh yeah i forgot the middle east has oil...silly me

[AzCivic]

we're IN south korea, not exactly far from north korea. Besides if there was a decision to invade there would be even more bush haters with their panties in a bunch.

[thermal]

I cant wait to hear what Steve and Wren has to say about this....

[Robert]

Honestly, I dont think it wise if the US was to invade another country. Wait until they're done with Iraq and look to them to move to Iran and then North Korea.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

we're IN south korea, not exactly far from north korea. Besides if there was a decision to invade there would be even more bush haters with their panties in a bunch.

Whether we're there or not doesn't matter. If we push into North Korea, the first thing they'll do is attack South Korea. And I'm not really sure it's possible for more people to hate Bush. Anyone who looks at the job he's done up until now and thinks it's even remotely helped is kidding themselves. The people who still support him are just too damn stupid to admit that they fucked up.

Originally Posted by Robert

Honestly, I dont think it wise if the US was to invade another country. Wait until they're done with Iraq and look to them to move to Iran and then North Korea.

I gotta say I agree with Rob here...at least superficially. Iraq was a mistake. I don't care if we got the guy we went after...there are far worse people in this world. All you need to do is look at people who actually have the technological means to harm us as they see fit. Oh wait...that's nobody. Scratch that. Since we've been in Iraq we've not only stretched our armed forces to the breaking point but we've used up whatever political clout we had in the world making a second invasion virtually impossible. Look at Israel and Lebanon. Israel is essentially committing genocide but everyone here is just sucking their thumb and pretending it's not happening. Anyone here old enough to remember what happened when Iraq pushed into Kuwait? It was a matter of days before we sent their asses packing. Now with everyone tied up in Iraq, we have literally no one to spare so we don't have much of a choice but to sit back and watch Israel pull it's bullshit. We'll...we could pull troops out of Iraq and send them to where the real problems are, but to do that we'd have to admit we're wrong, and that shit just ain't happening. Ever.

[Wren57]

Originally Posted by CD5Passion

isn't it funny to anyone else that we had warning of 9/11 but the government ignored those warnings?

Proof?

now korea has threatened us and our commander in chief and crew consider a nuclear threat from a capable country "hypothetical"???

yes its hypothetical; they won't launch an aggressive attack because the ENTIRE WORLD would destroy them... that + the fact they don't have missiles that can get here, and by the time that they do we'll have anti-missile technology mastered.

ok so let's wait 10 years until they actually nuke us then we will do soemthing about it right?

You want to attack tomorrow? Go sign up for the military and maybe you'll change your mind. You never launch an offensive unless the enemy poses a deliberate and *capable* threat of attacking you in the near future. NK can't and won't.

fuck you bush

Nice display of mature discussion.

full story here
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...korea.missile/



so someone please tell me why we are in the middle east and not in North Korea?...oh yeah i forgot the middle east has oil...silly me

NK has done nothing but talk... mainly because they don't have the capability to do anything to us except for talk. NK wants to drag us into starting a conflict so they can shell the shit outta Seoul (do you have ANY idea how much artillery NK has pointed at Seoul less than 30mi away) and get away with it in the court of world opinion. It would also probably bring china and maybe russia on their side and we'd be f'd. Do you really want to play into the hands of a short-man-complex communist leader? Glad you aren't running the country...


*EDIT*
That is a July5 article... apparently you are a bit behind on the news. Don't you think that someone that is nearly 4 weeks behind on the news is a bit uninformed of the entire situation and probably doesn't know what the hell they're actually talking about.

[GT40FIED]

You know what I find at least mildly amusing? A lot of people insist the folks in Pyeongyang don't pose a deliberate or capable threat to us, yet they were just fine with attacking Iraq. North Korea may be a few years off from being capable of launching any sort of ICBM, but Iraq had to be at least a couple DECADES away from such technology. Hell...Iran is MUCH more of a threat than Iraq ever was, but we're treating them with kid gloves. Sounds perfectly logical to me. Can you imagine what the world would be like now if Bush had been president during the Cuban Missle Crisis? His "don't mess with Texas" mentality and bravado would've gotten millions of people killed.

And Wren...there's plenty of proof that the government had knowledge of 9/11 beforehand. After all...they planned and excecuted it (or at the very least sat back and allowed it to happen) as leverage to trick the nation into an illegal war that no one sane supported. Now this is where everyone calls me some crazy conspiracy theorist because it makes them feel better. Whatever. If you REALLY looked into some of the discrepancies and evidence found in contradiction of the government's official story, maybe you'd be a little better informed.

I was having a conversation with my friend who's home on leave from Iraq last week and we came to the conclusion that if we (America) didn't have American Idol and other bullshit, we'd all go insane. America has completely lost touch with reality.

[Racing Rice]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

America has completely lost touch with reality.

You mean American Idol, Survivor, and Big Brother aren't reality after all?!?! Agh! What the fuck are we to do now?!?!

[KwikR6]

Originally Posted by Racing Rice

You mean American Idol, Survivor, and Big Brother aren't reality after all?!?! Agh! What the fuck are we to do now?!?!

Yeah cause that's all i know of America. I'm a retarded canadian

[CD5Passion]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

You know what I find at least mildly amusing? A lot of people insist the folks in Pyeongyang don't pose a deliberate or capable threat to us, yet they were just fine with attacking Iraq. North Korea may be a few years off from being capable of launching any sort of ICBM, but Iraq had to be at least a couple DECADES away from such technology. Hell...Iran is MUCH more of a threat than Iraq ever was, but we're treating them with kid gloves. Sounds perfectly logical to me. Can you imagine what the world would be like now if Bush had been president during the Cuban Missle Crisis? His "don't mess with Texas" mentality and bravado would've gotten millions of people killed.

And Wren...there's plenty of proof that the government had knowledge of 9/11 beforehand. After all...they planned and excecuted it (or at the very least sat back and allowed it to happen) as leverage to trick the nation into an illegal war that no one sane supported. Now this is where everyone calls me some crazy conspiracy theorist because it makes them feel better. Whatever. If you REALLY looked into some of the discrepancies and evidence found in contradiction of the government's official story, maybe you'd be a little better informed.

I was having a conversation with my friend who's home on leave from Iraq last week and we came to the conclusion that if we (America) didn't have American Idol and other bullshit, we'd all go insane. America has completely lost touch with reality.

like steve said they did have the knowledge, they admitted to it. Also the fact the day of 9/11 the airforce rerouted all of their defenses to the other side of the country of something so there were around or less than 10 jets within range to protect the eastern united states doesn't exactly help me beleive they didn't know it was going to happen, or that they didn't have involvement.

Pyschological warfare is a nasty reality.

hell the owner of the trade center took out some retardedly huge insurance policy ont he towers a week or so before 9/11.
Gold was removed from the towers before 9/11 and was found abandoned in a tunnel.
bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the trade centers a few days prior to 9/11 (september 6th to be precise)
Marvin bush (guess whos brother) was a "principle" of a security company that worked fro WTC, Dulles airport, and United Airlines. a few days prior to 9/11 he transferred to another company.
Workers of WTC were not allowed to enter certain parts of the buildings a few days prior to 9/11.

and Wren, you haven't always been maturity embodied in the past

[AzCivic]

little known 9/11 fact: exactly 4 days prior to the attack monkeys flew out of my butt. Don't believe me? Here's a pic of one

he was even nice enough to autograph the pic, we still chat now and then, usually about that fateful day that I like to call "9/omg it hurts!!"

but really if someone wanted to go to war for whatever reason there are far easier ways to do it then killing numerous innocent civilians with jet liners. And if they were that devious why wouldn't they just plant whatever they were looking for in Iraq? Really, use some common sense.

anyways, thought we already had this debate?

[CD5Passion]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

little known 9/11 fact: exactly 4 days prior to the attack monkeys flew out of my butt. Don't believe me? Here's a pic of one

he was even nice enough to autograph the pic, we still chat now and then, usually about that fateful day that I like to call "9/omg it hurts!!"

but really if someone wanted to go to war for whatever reason there are far easier ways to do it then killing numerous innocent civilians with jet liners. And if they were that devious why wouldn't they just plant whatever they were looking for in Iraq? Really, use some common sense.

anyways, thought we already had this debate?

yeah probably and I'm not really gonna argue because it really is pointless. there are no facts in what happened.

why did almost half of the alledged hijackers turn up alive?

and remember how they identified one "hijacker"? they said a passport flew out of the hijackers pocket upon impact with one of the WTC and into the streets....um...how come no blackboxes from either of the planes were found?...its hard for me to beleive that a piece a paper survived and a black box made out of some of the most technologically advanced and hardest metals known to mankind didn't.

it'll never end and we will never know the truth, until the government can prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt I will not beleive what they say about it.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

but really if someone wanted to go to war for whatever reason there are far easier ways to do it then killing numerous innocent civilians with jet liners. And if they were that devious why wouldn't they just plant whatever they were looking for in Iraq? Really, use some common sense.

anyways, thought we already had this debate?

That may be true, but we already had a plan on the books for that sort of thing. Back in Macnamara-era Washington, the government drafted Operation Northwoods. Essentially it was a plan to detonate an empty passenger plane full of "college students" (in reality they'd be mannequins) over Cuban airspace, blame the "tragedy" on the Cubans, and use it as a pretext for going to war with Cuba. I mean really...you don't let a plan like that just go to waste.

There may be easier ways of going to war, but few involve the kind of thunderous support that 9/11 invoked from the public at large. At least until people started finding out that the story was bullshit. Hell, one survey showed that 85% of the military in Iraq still think that the official reason they're there is to get revenge for 9/11. As for why we didn't just plant shit in Iraq, we didn't have to. What's the point? Once we're there and stubborn as shit not to leave, why go to all the trouble of planting evidence? All the had to do was come out and say "oops...we messed up, but we're still gonna fight this thing out" and the majority of America just sat back and went "oh...well...that seems reasonable".

And we've had this discussion before, but it's never a real debate. Myself and a few others present facts and the response I get is always "Nope...the government said this and I believe them because I have apparently had a frontal labotomy and am incapable of independent thought. Plus why would the government lie about anything ever? LOLZ!" without any real solid evidence to the contradict anything.

[AzCivic]

what "facts" have been presented? if there was some consipiracy why would these government masterminds let the "owner of the twin towers" know about it so he could suspiciously take out a "really huge insurance policy".

You don't know what happened, I'm not God so I don't know exactly what happened, except I side with common sense and you side with conspiracy nonsense that you love to cling to as long as it makes the gov't (conservative leadership?) look baaaaaad.

"And I'm not really sure it's possible for more people to hate Bush" "and the majority of America just sat back and went "oh...well...that seems reasonable" If this whole conspiracy was to allow Bush to do what he wants why not go a little further and come out looking like a hero with Iraq? It'd be quite simple to plant whatever the hell they wanted too. Because he didn't have to? You just said everyone hates him.

And I'm completely capable of using my own mind to draw my own conclusions. Just because I refuse to feel like a helpless victim that the gov't and big business is out to get, doesn't mean my opinions are any less valid than yours.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

what "facts" have been presented? if there was some consipiracy why would these government masterminds let the "owner of the twin towers" know about it so he could suspiciously take out a "really huge insurance policy".

You don't know what happened, I'm not God so I don't know exactly what happened, except I side with common sense and you side with conspiracy nonsense that you love to cling to as long as it makes the gov't (conservative leadership?) look baaaaaad.

"And I'm not really sure it's possible for more people to hate Bush" "and the majority of America just sat back and went "oh...well...that seems reasonable" If this whole conspiracy was to allow Bush to do what he wants why not go a little further and come out looking like a hero with Iraq? It'd be quite simple to plant whatever the hell they wanted too. Because he didn't have to? You just said everyone hates him.

And I'm completely capable of using my own mind to draw my own conclusions. Just because I refuse to feel like a helpless victim that the gov't and big business is out to get, doesn't mean my opinions are any less valid than yours.

I really don't think you want me to lay the whole thing out...it'd be a long post...but I can if you'd like me to. As far as what happened with Larry Silverstein, owner of the WTC complex, a lot of the questions lie with him so it's no surprise that he would've had prior knowledge.

You say you stick to the side of common sense, but how in the world is that possible if you ignore potentially damning facts. You've completely closed your mind off to the very idea that it wasn't those pesky terrorists. Even though that means ignoring things like the fact that commercial planes have software to prevent high G manuevers like those pulled off on 9/11 that could not have possibly been disabled by any terrorist element (especially an element with dogshit flight experience) while in the air. But I get it. Psychologically it's hard to accept the idea that the people charged with your safety would fuck you like that without even so much as a reach around.

You're also forgetting the timing of WMD not-finding and public opinion turning massively against Bush. Around the WMD search (or failure thereof) people were still gripped by fear and many still are. They didn't need a lot of pesky logic to justify revenge. All they "knew" was that we were attacked by outside forces and that we had to bomb the shit out of anyone who even looked at us wrong. It's a miracle that France still exists to this day (and that's a pretty shitty miracle). It wasn't until Iraq became a complete and utter mess that people woke up and said "wait...this guy has the leadership skills of a gopher".

Who said anything about feeling like some helpless victim? No one did anything to me (yet). That may change with each evolution of the PATRIOT Act, but for now I'm good. And really, you may be using your own mind, but you're apparently drawing someone else's conclusions.

[AzCivic]

thats one of your best "facts"; software to prevent high G manuevers?? yeah because there's no way for pilots to advert a potential disaster that would require a "high G manuever" right? they got the pilots to give up the plane but getting them to over ride a program is just way too farfetched for you? I'm gonna take a guess and say that if there is such a thing, its not that complicated to override because for some reason if a commercial plane full of people is for some reason on a collision path with another aircraft, the designers aren't going to make it some long complicated procedure to let them veer the plane out of harms way.

do you not realize how rediculous that "fact" sounds?

What does timing have to do with anything? They went in with the excuse of possible wmd, why not plant some wmd!? oh they (the gov't) will kill thousands of innocent civilians to sway the countries' opinion but not plant some weapons out in the middle of a desert to gain even more support from their country AND THE WORLD. That just sounds retarded.

I think you watch too many movies.

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

thats one of your best "facts"; software to prevent high G manuevers?? yeah because there's no way for pilots to advert a potential disaster that would require a "high G manuever" right? they got the pilots to give up the plane but getting them to over ride a program is just way too farfetched for you? I'm gonna take a guess and say that if there is such a thing, its not that complicated to override because for some reason if a commercial plane full of people is for some reason on a collision path with another aircraft, the designers aren't going to make it some long complicated procedure to let them veer the plane out of harms way.

do you not realize how rediculous that "fact" sounds?

What does timing have to do with anything? They went in with the excuse of possible wmd, why not plant some wmd!? oh they (the gov't) will kill thousands of innocent civilians to sway the countries' opinion but not plant some weapons out in the middle of a desert to gain even more support from their country AND THE WORLD. That just sounds retarded.

I think you watch too many movies.

You have to realize something Rob....these are commercial planes. It's not an F-16. They have to have safety measures put in place so, in the the event a pilot gets carried away, he doesn't break granny's neck doing something stupid and give cause for enormous amounts of liability lawsuits. And really...how do overpowering pilots and tampering with software have anything to do with each other? One qould require rather extensive knowledge of the plane and the software (if it were even possible to disable...it's not). The other is just brute force. There are other measures to combat thing like mid air collisions like...oh what's it called...RADAR. I guess it might sound a bit ridiculous if you're not even willing to entertain the notion and are completely and utterly uninformed.

How about this...Galileo's law of falling bodies calculates the time an object will take to hit the ground in complete freefall. In it, distance equals 16.08 x seconds squared. The south tower was 1,362ft tall. So 1362 = 16.08 x 84.7...or 9.2 seconds. It took barely longer than 10 seconds for the building to come down, which means it was in almost complete freefall. When buildings collapse in a natural fashion they do not a) tend to fall straight down into a relatively neat little pile and b) enter a freefall-like state...they generally put up some resistance. That is, of course, unless they've been otherwise tampered with.

Now do I get to hear "that's ridiculous. It's just physics!"?

As for the whole planting evidence thing...you're still not hearing me. I'm merely saying we didn't HAVE to do anything. It's become blatantly obvious that this government does not care how it's viewed on the world stage, so why go to the trouble to plant weapons around Iraq? I mean it's not like we have any similar weapons that are nearly as primitive as what Iraqis would have, so you'd have to go to the trouble to fabricate evidence to plant it. We could have if we'd wanted to. Hell...it's probably even a good idea. But what's the point? "We" got what "we" wanted and no one remembers what WMD stands for anymore.

[dabouncerx24]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

What does timing have to do with anything? They went in with the excuse of possible wmd, why not plant some wmd!? oh they (the gov't) will kill thousands of innocent civilians to sway the countries' opinion but not plant some weapons out in the middle of a desert to gain even more support from their country AND THE WORLD. That just sounds retarded.

I think you watch too many movies.

I usually don't get into heated arguments involving GT...but...

Dude, you actually think that planting weapons is more persuasive than a few thousand lives? Oh...wait...most of the world hate Americans, nevermind.

[AzCivic]

Gt: you're arguments are very weak. Yup radar huh, there are NEVER any mid air collisions right? do a search on google I bet you'll find some. And there's NO other reason a pilot would have to make a drastic manuever right? Maybe to avoid a flock of geese or a hot air balloon some other flying thing that might not show up on an supposed infallible radar.

-aircraft engineers are sitting around designing safety measures: "hey lets make it impossible to avoid small aircraft that might not show up on radar or (insert some other reason to make a sharp turn) so someone doesn't get hurt if the pilot decides to play a joke on passengers by yanking the plane for no reason"- sounds perfectly plausible.

I always like how the conspiracy theorists like to break hugely complex situations down into some simple little kiddie problem and then shout "Look my highschool physics shows such and such is impossible, the gov't is out to get us!!" yup, rediculous.

What's the point?? Hmm maybe to ensure a sweeping victory of their party the next election perhaps? To get more allies on our side so we can go off and invade anyone else? For shits and giggles? Like you said everyone now hates bush, wouldn't it be nice for him to say "I TOLD you so!" and america will rejoice and he can bask in the glow of approval. Nah, planting some primitive weapons is too difficult.

dabouncer: huh? there's no argument about which method is more persuasive so whats your point?

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by AzCivic

I always like how the conspiracy theorists like to break hugely complex situations down into some simple little kiddie problem and then shout "Look my highschool physics shows such and such is impossible, the gov't is out to get us!!" yup, rediculous.

Holy shit...I would like to thank you for thoroughly proving the point I made earlier. You don't have anything that remotely resembles a rebutle so you have to resort to "conspiracy theorists are crazy!! LOLZ!!11!". Then again, it's physics which, on this planet anyway, are universal and more or less impossible to screw with. Seriously...if you don't have an answer for something either admit it or don't talk about it.

And really, just admit you don't have a clue about what software goes into commercial airliners. Your entire argument is based on suspicion and doubt, not fact, and my argument is weak? Either educate yourself and get back to me or just drop it.

If you're as wise and all knowing as you'd like me to to think you are, riddle me this. On a PBS 9/11 documentary, Larry Silverstein (owner of the WTC plaza) admitted that he made the decision to "pull" WTC 7...one of the much smaller buildings adjacent to WTC 1 & 2 (the main towers). In this case, to "pull" a bulding is a demolition industry term for demolishing a building via strategically placed explosives. Before Silverstein said this, the government's "official" explanation was that the building collapsed due to fire damage (regardless of the facts that it sustained little damage from falling debris and that no bulding made of steel reinforced concrete has ever collapsed due to fire damage alone). So clearly someone's lying, and I don't immediately see why Silverstein would have any reason to. It's also interesting to note that controlled demolitions aren't something that can be setup overnight. It takes a good amount of time to survey the building and place the explosives. So why were they there to begin with? Oh...and a member of the secret service died when that building was imploded so why hasn't anyone been charged with capital murder?

[Wren57]

AZ, all Steve really wants is you to admit theres a *possibility that the gov't is out to get you... then the fall down the rabbit hole starts until you turn out just as looney as he.

<- not debating this topic again, done dozens of times on this and other forums

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Wren57

AZ, all Steve really wants is you to admit theres a *possibility that the gov't is out to get you... then the fall down the rabbit hole starts until you turn out just as looney as he.

<- not debating this topic again, done dozens of times on this and other forums

You know what Wren...I feel that I've had enough alcohol to conclusively state that you may just be a retarded fuck up who's only gotten where he is in life by virtue of his parent's money. You can't provide a scrap of evidence that I'm wrong so you'll just call me "looney". Fuck you and all of your young republican friends. If it makes you feel safe to ignore evidence, good for you. You can just sit by while the country you sycophantically claim to love so much goes to hell. You're a fucking puppet and I know it scares the shit out of you to know that.

Earlier in this thread you provoked Darin to "do something about it", by which you meant joining the armed forces, if he didn't like the way things were. I challenge you to do the same. I know you "plan on" military service, but why wait? Leave college today. The war is here and now. I know you and all of you ROTC buddies sit around and talk about those who won't sign up like they're second class while you stand no chance of any danger. The sad fact is that while your parents pay for your college and most likely your rent, car (well, ok...I know they paid for your car), and miscellaneous other things, many of the people currently serving in REAL combat situations NEED the government to pay up for the luxury that your parents bought you into. They don't have rich mommies and daddies to bail them out of REAL service.

See...you claim that all I want Rob to claim that there's a possiblity that the government is fucked up and corrupt as shit and from there it's a proverbial slippery slope downhill. How about you claiming that you're nothing but a sheep with no real ideas of your own? Both premises have about as much merit. All I really want is for people to look at the evidence for themselves. If they do and they still come to the same conclusion that they did before, that's fine. They can provide evidence to the contrary (although no one ever does). It's one thing to be educated on an issue, but it's quite another to dismiss just because your feeble brain can't comprehend it.

So, in closing, prove me wrong, or shut the fuck up. Unlike many of the other people you claim to have discussed this with on other message boards, I'm smarter than you and you can't win this one (on this topic at the very least), so get bent.

[Wren57]

Wonderful attacking and arrogant response, Steve. Drunk at 9:45AM? Model citizen, you are... THANK GOD we have people like you that know how to run the country better than our leaders, else we'd be fucked... oh, wait, apparently you aren't in office so maybe you don't?

As far as me joining the military, I met with a Navy recruiter yesterday to discuss my options of flight school or law school. I scored perfect on every Navy math test and near perfect on every Navy logic test, so these are my two best-fitting options. These are slots filled by officers, and being an officer requires a college degree, so no, I won't leave for an enlisted rank when I have the ability to become an officer in just one more year. Think I'm kidding, call LCDR O'loghlin @ Milton Navy Air Field in Florida. And don't give me any of this "real service" bullshit... you haven't served, so STFU. Just because I'm not going through ROTC on contract doesn't mean I won't serve just the same as they will after college. Please tell me the difference between "real service" and what I'm doing. Is the only difference that I don't NEED the gov't? That makes me a bad person? Well damn, I guess I don't NEED the gov'ts help but I'm going to fight for this country anyway instead of running one of the family businesses, yeah, thats right... I'm giving up an oppurtunity to be CEO right out of college to fight for my country, so if you give me any more of this bullshit I'll make sure to drop a laser-bomb on your retarded Kansas ass first chance I get.

I DO derive my own conclusions about things, and I do NOT agree with your ideas. It is not I that have to prove you wrong, for your opinion is the one of dissent... the burden of proof rests upon you, and you have come up with nothing other than conspiracies and things you've read on the internet. Yeah, thats much more informative than reading 2 newspapers a day and watching the news regularly... have I mentioned my roomates include a hippie and a liberal law-school student, and that my best friend is also a law-school student? I don't hang out with republicans hardly at all.

I really wish I could continue this now, but unlike some I'm not "privledged" enough to drink at 11am and must get back to work on some databasing issues...

[AzCivic]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Holy shit...I would like to thank you for thoroughly proving the point I made earlier. You don't have anything that remotely resembles a rebutle so you have to resort to "conspiracy theorists are crazy!! LOLZ!!11!". Then again, it's physics which, on this planet anyway, are universal and more or less impossible to screw with. Seriously...if you don't have an answer for something either admit it or don't talk about it.

And really, just admit you don't have a clue about what software goes into commercial airliners. Your entire argument is based on suspicion and doubt, not fact, and my argument is weak? Either educate yourself and get back to me or just drop it.

where the HELL are your "facts" you just copied some retarded rant about software that, like everyother stupid little consipiracy theory, is all over the internet. YOU ARE NOT A PILOT AND YOU ARE NOT A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER nothing you say is a fact and copying it off another retarded website doesn't make anything you spout true. YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I at least have some common sense on my side. Common sense says that a pilot has the final say when it comes to what his aircraft will do incase he has to take drastic measures to save everyone on boards damn life.

YES YOUR ARGUMENT IS WEAK with nothing to support it. Maybe if you take some advanced physics/math classes you'll begin to understand a little about complex structures and that how they behave under extreme situations can't be summed up in a kids math book.

Educate myself? What conspiracy wack job websites do you recommend? Certainly thats where all your "facts" come from.

[AzCivic]

And GT since you can just throw something out like its conclusive evidence that you're right I'll throw out this quote I found in another thread about this same retarded topic of high g software crap:

"The Boeing Co., on the other hand, believes pilots should have the ultimate say. On Boeing jets, the pilot can override onboard computers and their built-in soft limits. "It's not a lack of trust in technology," said John Cashman, director of flight-crew operations for Boeing. "We certainly don't have the feeling that we do not want to rely on technology. But the pilot in control of the aircraft should have the ultimate authority."

[Wren57]

The world is going to end in 1999!!!! I read it on teh intranets.
http://noumenal.net/exiles/darkfuture.html

No? Well, maybe 2012.
http://survive2012.com/why_2012.php

If we keep guessing at times that the world will end, much like conspiracy theories, we might eventually be right due to probability finally catching up...



Even maddox thinks 9/11 conspiracy theorists are foolish:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....URTHER_READING

Loose Change rebuttle:
http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

And another, by Popular Mechanics:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...e/1227842.html

And last but not least, the forum I frequent most:
http://www.my350z.com/forum/showthre...F11+conspiracy

[GT40FIED]

Originally Posted by Wren57

Wonderful attacking and arrogant response, Steve. Drunk at 9:45AM? Model citizen, you are... THANK GOD we have people like you that know how to run the country better than our leaders, else we'd be fucked... oh, wait, apparently you aren't in office so maybe you don't?

As far as me joining the military, I met with a Navy recruiter yesterday to discuss my options of flight school or law school. I scored perfect on every Navy math test and near perfect on every Navy logic test, so these are my two best-fitting options. These are slots filled by officers, and being an officer requires a college degree, so no, I won't leave for an enlisted rank when I have the ability to become an officer in just one more year. Think I'm kidding, call LCDR O'loghlin @ Milton Navy Air Field in Florida. And don't give me any of this "real service" bullshit... you haven't served, so STFU. Just because I'm not going through ROTC on contract doesn't mean I won't serve just the same as they will after college. Please tell me the difference between "real service" and what I'm doing. Is the only difference that I don't NEED the gov't? That makes me a bad person? Well damn, I guess I don't NEED the gov'ts help but I'm going to fight for this country anyway instead of running one of the family businesses, yeah, thats right... I'm giving up an oppurtunity to be CEO right out of college to fight for my country, so if you give me any more of this bullshit I'll make sure to drop a laser-bomb on your retarded Kansas ass first chance I get.

I DO derive my own conclusions about things, and I do NOT agree with your ideas. It is not I that have to prove you wrong, for your opinion is the one of dissent... the burden of proof rests upon you, and you have come up with nothing other than conspiracies and things you've read on the internet. Yeah, thats much more informative than reading 2 newspapers a day and watching the news regularly... have I mentioned my roomates include a hippie and a liberal law-school student, and that my best friend is also a law-school student? I don't hang out with republicans hardly at all.

I really wish I could continue this now, but unlike some I'm not "privledged" enough to drink at 11am and must get back to work on some databasing issues...

Really? You're going to drop a laser bomb on Kansas? Hmmm...I'm not sure that such an attitude embodies the kind of nobility the Navy aspires for. That...and it would pretty much make you a terrorist as well. I'm not really sure where you drew the conclusion that all I did was copy and paste stuff from online, but I assure you thaty ou and Rob are dead wrong. And even if I had, does that make them any less true than something in a newpaper? "0h n0z! Nothing on the internet can possibly be true...evAr!". Did I feel as stupid typing that as you did thinking it? And bravo on watching a bunch of bullshit-laden biased news programs. No...really...cheers. I'm also pretty sure that you being a CEO straight out of college back up my point whether you're "giving it up" or not (trust me...it'll still be there when you get out of the Navy). That should really prepare you for the world of politics...a high level position that you didn't have to work for. Everything's coming up roses.

Oh...and just a quick note...I'm sure you'd like to think I woke up and started drinking today, but let's just say I had a long night. You're right...I was drunk at 9:45 this morning...but I wasn't drinking then. Besides, no class and no work today. Who cares?

Originally Posted by AzCivic

where the HELL are your "facts" you just copied some retarded rant about software that, like everyother stupid little consipiracy theory, is all over the internet. YOU ARE NOT A PILOT AND YOU ARE NOT A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER nothing you say is a fact and copying it off another retarded website doesn't make anything you spout true. YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I at least have some common sense on my side. Common sense says that a pilot has the final say when it comes to what his aircraft will do incase he has to take drastic measures to save everyone on boards damn life.

YES YOUR ARGUMENT IS WEAK with nothing to support it. Maybe if you take some advanced physics/math classes you'll begin to understand a little about complex structures and that how they behave under extreme situations can't be summed up in a kids math book.

Educate myself? What conspiracy wack job websites do you recommend? Certainly thats where all your "facts" come from.

Think I already covered the copy and paste bullshit. I honestly will look into the thing you posted there however, I do see a flaw. If a pilot can choose to override the system and maneuvers that would require them to need to override the system would have to be sudden and swift, what's the point? I'm not saying it's not possible, but by the time it could be disabled, wouldn't you already have hit whatever you were trying to avoid? Anyway, I digress.

Moving right along, I really don't see you disagreeing with anything besides the flight software thing. The arguments aren't weak, you just don't like them. And while I doubt that Galileo's law of falling bodies is in any kids math book, you haven't offered any substance to the contrary. You know what...I'll even stop using the word "facts" just to make you happy. Offer up evidence of another theory that can refute anything I've typed (aside from the software thing which was good...I'll look into it).

[GT40FIED]

Two quick things I forgot -

First of all....Wren...I'd just like to remind you that they guy you voted for for president was EXACTLY the kind of guy who was drunk at 10am long after he was my age, so there's hope for me yet. Then again...I'm getting better grades than he did.

And Rob...go check out http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ . It's members include such "crazies" as a former deputy attorney general, former director of the "Star Wars" defense program, and one guy whose resume includes "Former assistant German defense minister, director of the German Secret Service, minister for research and technology, and member of Parliament for 25 years". Surely these people are all certifiable. Not to mention the countless other professors, lawyers, and experts in their field listed as founding members.

[AzCivic]

steve, have you studied alot of large skyscrapers that have been hit by large fuel heavy commercial jets? if not, then how do you know how long it would take one to fall in the way it did? plus you give on time for free fall and say the building took longer, thus it wasn't in complete free fall.

[GT40FIED]

Well...think about it from a physics standpoint. First of all, the building was hit relatively high up on one side. Even if the jet fuel was hot enough to melt the steel (it wasn't) and even if the vast majority of the fuel hadn't exploded outside the bulding (it did), an object damaged on one side tends to topple to that side, not straight down. You can take an aluminum can and dimple it on one side...doesn't the top lean towards that dimpled side? It would've been a lot more likely that the top floors fell off on their own, but even that would have been unlikely since both towers were built to withstand an impact from a plane the size of a commercial airliner. Hell...years ago a B-52 crashed into the Empire State Building. It's still there, isn't it? And that building wasn't built to the same specs as either tower at WTC plaza.

And yes, I did say it was in ALMOST complete freefall according to the little equation I did. When buildings collapse other floors that remain intact will offer resistance before letting go, if they let go at all (remember, both towers only burned across 4 floors...out of over 100). Thus you'd expect the time to be substantially longer than if it were in an almost total freefall. Now, think about the video you saw of the towers coming down and ask yourself why everything came down in such an orderly fashion. Not just one building, but both buildings...regardless of the fact that both buildings were not hit in the exact same manner. Shit...even reporters covering the story live were remarking at how much it looked like a controlled demolition. What are the chances of both buildings collapsing in an almost precisely similar fashion after burning for an average of about an hour? I don't know the chances, but they have to be astronomically small.

I'm not necessarily out to make you believe what I do...I'm just trying to make you and others look at the alternative possibility for themselves. As far as I can tell there is not a single piece of the government's official story that is ironclad. Everything is suspect. If thinking me a crazy person makes you feel better, go nuts. Honestly, it doesn't bother me. But if you can dismiss mountains of evidence that stand in stark contrast to what you think really happened then...well...that's kind of sad. But then again if you're religious, you're probably used to it.

[AzCivic]

If gov't masterminds orchestrated this whole thing don't you think they'd consult experts in this field on how the building would fall and plant their explosives or what not to make it fall that way? nah they'd just not pay attention to any details and leave things to question by people with absolutely no expertise in the area.

steel doesn't have to completely melt to lose its strength.

"mountains of evidence"...yeah sure whatever you say...

[GT40FIED]

Do you really think an entity as massive as the federal government doesn't have experts in strictural engineering and similar fields? Ever heard of the Army Corps Of Engineers? Seems like they might know a thing or two about...oh, I dunno...engineering.

[Wren57]

Yeah, since its really easy to involve the military arm of a gov't in a domestic conspiracy without anyone talking...

[GT40FIED]

And no one in the military has ever done anything covert or corrupt. Nope...never.

[AzCivic]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

Do you really think an entity as massive as the federal government doesn't have experts in strictural engineering and similar fields? Ever heard of the Army Corps Of Engineers? Seems like they might know a thing or two about...oh, I dunno...engineering.

huh?? I stated that if the intent of the gov't was to make a building collapse w/ controlled demolition while having it look like the result of a terrorist attack, wouldn't they talk to those experts and find out how the building should fall? So then they could plant their explosives or whatever appropriately.

but no according to you and others whom I'm sure have no solid background in the area think they left that part of the plan out and just blew it up. since you're saying (with your all your expertise) that the building should've fallen another way.

now that i think about it when there's a controlled demolition w/ explosives, the building doesn't fall the exact INSTANT the explosives are set off which is what you're saying must have happened or else it'd be pretty damn obvious. furthermore when I listened to the 911 recordings I didn't hear any explosives going off just the rumble of a building begining to collapse and the screaming voices of those about to die.

[GT40FIED]

You've obviously never heard the numerous 911 calls and firefighter radio tapes where several people report hearing secondary explosions just before the buildings came down. And believe me...firefighters are not the type to mistake the sound of an explosion.

[AzCivic]

Originally Posted by GT40FIED

You've obviously never heard the numerous 911 calls and firefighter radio tapes where several people report hearing secondary explosions just before the buildings came down. And believe me...firefighters are not the type to mistake the sound of an explosion.

no I heard the damn building going down myself.

but just ignore the other stuff I said.

[GT40FIED]

Well...as for the rest of it, the government goes out of it's way to try and recruit some of the smartest people it can find for anything but upper level positions. Upper level positions go to morons or a friend-of-a-friend kinda thing. Is it really so hard to imagine that the government could have gotten it done without going outside for help? I mean...really?

You keep saying you have "common sense" (which apparently does away with the need for logic), but how could anything be more common sense than saying that two given structures struck in different manners will fall in different ways? Or to say that such a collapse will look significantly different than a controlled demolition?

[AzCivic]

how do explosives make a certain section of a building collapse at the EXACT INSTANT they are set off?

"secondary explosion" there would not be one secondary explosion there would be as many explosions as there are floors on each building or at least close to it. unless you're trying to say they all went off at once but somehow showed no evidence of it on video tape.

logic and common sense go hand-in-hand, just like conspiracy theories and tin foil hats.

[GT40FIED]

Well...actually...there are several photos and short video clips of what look an aweful lot like cutter charges nowhere near an effected part of the buildings right before the buildings came down. You know...the kind of charge it would take to bring down a large building. There were also reports from WTC employees of both buildings being closed on certain floors over either the weekend before the attacks or the weekend before that (I can't remember exactly...I think it was like the 9th, though) where only certain people who didn't work there normally were being let in. Since I can't independently verify any of those accounts...I'm not a reporter...I won't claim that as proof or evidence of any kind, but if it's true it would certainly explain some things.