D series Power

[pdiggitydogg]

Just found this over at turbod16.com
It impressed me a bit.
http://www.turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=5173

And for the 'Lazy'
Power/Torque @ flywheel:
283 hp @ 7000 rpm
232 ft-lbs @ 6000 rpm

This is what you can expect from a maxed out Edelbrock kit and a slight build.
The new Greddy kit with the 19T supposedly "makes 300hp", but we all know they like to be on the conservative side...it'd probably make more power in the end.

Just sharing...thought it might rejuvinate some of you thinking that turbo d's are slow, no matter what.

[ebpda9]

turbos are not slow to begin with, unless you put it on a lawn mower engine ( that just gave me an idea )

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
turbos are not slow to begin with, unless you put it on a lawn mower engine ( that just gave me an idea )

D16 = Lawnmower engine












SWAP IT

BTW, im kidding

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

u forgot this pdiggs..

http://turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=4140

[Fatal070]

hey speaking of a d16y8 IM SELLING MY OLD ONE WITH 60000 MILES ON IT .... ONLY 500$ without clutch and wireing harness everything else is there

[ShagginJet]

Isn't there a D15 site where this guy rebuilt a D15 to make like 300+ HP??

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by Fatal070
hey speaking of a d16y8 IM SELLING MY OLD ONE WITH 60000 MILES ON IT .... ONLY 500$ without clutch and ecueverything else is there

is that shipped?

[Shaved &/or Laid]

if not he aint getting that for it. Sell it for like 50 dude.

[Fatal070]

right 50 bucks.... 60,000 miles on it.... right right no thats not shiped but if u really want it ill give it to u 300 u pay shiping

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
Just found this over at turbod16.com
It impressed me a bit.
http://www.turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=5173

And for the 'Lazy'
Power/Torque @ flywheel:
283 hp @ 7000 rpm
232 ft-lbs @ 6000 rpm

This is what you can expect from a maxed out Edelbrock kit and a slight build.
The new Greddy kit with the 19T supposedly "makes 300hp", but we all know they like to be on the conservative side...it'd probably make more power in the end.

Just sharing...thought it might rejuvinate some of you thinking that turbo d's are slow, no matter what.

never doubted that a properly built D could make power. It just takes cubic dollars rather than cubic inches in this case. BTW the amount of money he spent on that engine and turbo setup, I can go faster for cheaper with my H22. going all motor.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
BTW the amount of money he spent on that engine and turbo setup, I can go faster for cheaper with my H22. going all motor.

your probably right, but a built D16 making nice numbers deserves much credit... since it is the underdog motor of honda and we've all seen fast ass H22s..

not bad #'s at all...I would love to see what it would do w/ P&P and the cam upgrade and all...

thanks for sharing...

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
never doubted that a properly built D could make power. It just takes cubic dollars rather than cubic inches in this case. BTW the amount of money he spent on that engine and turbo setup, I can go faster for cheaper with my H22. going all motor.

even if you add in the price of getting the h22 in the first place?

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by AzCivic
even if you add in the price of getting the h22 in the first place?

a h22 in an accord, with basic mods will run low 14's with a good driver, plus a civic is about 600lbs shy of the heavy ass accord, so i think it will go like mid 13's. Now i'd like to see the run of the mill civic with a mild turbo kit run that.

H22 = 2300 + shipping
D16 turbo kit 2000+ shipping

I used mid prices, not the highest or the lowest.

absolutely. How fast do u think that 283 horsepower D series will run on slicks?? Remember it does make 232 foot pounds of torque, but @ 6,000 RPM!!!! I know a stock H22A1 (190 HP version) in a hatch back runs 13.4's bone stock on slicks. I/H/E, dyno tuned with VAFC it runs low to mid 12's. I dont think this little D will break 12's. I would think low 13's maybe 12's if he is lucky. I can do all this for about 5,000 dollars or less including the price of the engine. I think that turbo D with the build up, the turbo kit, and the exhaust and everything that it took is way over that. I know someone who had a 2000 Civic Si (B16), ported heads, Spearco intercooler, Greddy turbo kit set @ 7 pounds, Apexi exhaust, Apexi VAFC, test pipe, on slicks ran a best of 13.4's. He spent a ton of money on this car and it wasnt that fast. Atleast to me it wasnt.

Ohh yeah BTW H22 ECU's are prolly the most poorly tuned ECUs that honda has (atleast that I am aware of). A friend of mine (yes the same guy who had a turbo Lude, his name is Mark BTW) knew someone who had a 98 Prelude Type S. This guy had the normal I/H/E. He also had cam gears and an Apexi VAFC. Aparantly this guy had his Lude tuned on the Dyno. Between the cam gears and VAFC he gained 22 WHP!!!!! Pretty incredible if u ask me (just a little dyno info for all u dyno graph lovers).

[ebpda9]

yeah, i heard that running gsr ecu on h22s will yield a lot of power

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
a h22 in an accord, with basic mods will run low 14's with a good driver, plus a civic is about 600lbs shy of the heavy ass accord, so i think it will go like mid 13's. Now i'd like to see the run of the mill civic with a mild turbo kit run that.

H22 = 2300 + shipping
D16 turbo kit 2000+ shipping

I used mid prices, not the highest or the lowest.

alot of civics with just a turbo kit and proper tuning run in the 13's, and they still have a/c and power steering.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
absolutely. How fast do u think that 283 horsepower D series will run on slicks?? Remember it does make 232 foot pounds of torque, but @ 6,000 RPM!!!! I know a stock H22A1 (190 HP version) in a hatch back runs 13.4's bone stock on slicks. I/H/E, dyno tuned with VAFC it runs low to mid 12's. I dont think this little D will break 12's. I would think low 13's maybe 12's if he is lucky. I can do all this for about 5,000 dollars or less including the price of the engine. I think that turbo D with the build up, the turbo kit, and the exhaust and everything that it took is way over that. I know someone who had a 2000 Civic Si (B16), ported heads, Spearco intercooler, Greddy turbo kit set @ 7 pounds, Apexi exhaust, Apexi VAFC, test pipe, on slicks ran a best of 13.4's. He spent a ton of money on this car and it wasnt that fast. Atleast to me it wasnt.

Ohh yeah BTW H22 ECU's are prolly the most poorly tuned ECUs that honda has (atleast that I am aware of). A friend of mine (yes the same guy who had a turbo Lude, his name is Mark BTW) knew someone who had a 98 Prelude Type S. This guy had the normal I/H/E. He also had cam gears and an Apexi VAFC. Aparantly this guy had his Lude tuned on the Dyno. Between the cam gears and VAFC he gained 22 WHP!!!!! Pretty incredible if u ask me (just a little dyno info for all u dyno graph lovers).

you dont think a 2400lb or so civic with almost 300flywheel hp can break into the 12's!?!?!!? that dyno i posted in the other thread had a d16 making about 235flyhp and he's run a 12.8 @ 3,000ft elevation, so bring that down to sea level and that'd be low 12's, in a hatchback.

alot of that stuff that was done to that engine wasnt even neccesary like the crower springs/retainers, ferrea valves, and resleeving and if your gonna resleeve an engine why keep the stock bore? it could have made additional power for free if they would have bored it out to 77-78mm.

also in a drag race i'd be more worried about making power in the upper rpms than down low where its not gonna get used anyway, i cant think of a time where i launched below 3500 where this engine is already making 150ftlbs of torque, which is right about the peak torque rating of a stock h22, and the amount isnt gonna increase to much on an engine with just i/h/e and tuning.

knowing someone who knows someone who dyno'd this isnt really a good argument.

Originally posted by AzCivic
you dont think a 2400lb or so civic with almost 300flywheel hp can break into the 12's!?!?!!? that dyno i posted in the other thread had a d16 making about 235flyhp and he's run a 12.8 @ 3,000ft elevation, so bring that down to sea level and that'd be low 12's, in a hatchback.

alot of that stuff that was done to that engine wasnt even neccesary like the crower springs/retainers, ferrea valves, and resleeving and if your gonna resleeve an engine why keep the stock bore? it could have made additional power for free if they would have bored it out to 77-78mm.

also in a drag race i'd be more worried about making power in the upper rpms than down low where its not gonna get used anyway, i cant think of a time where i launched below 3500 where this engine is already making 150ftlbs of torque, which is right about the peak torque rating of a stock h22, and the amount isnt gonna increase to much on an engine with just i/h/e and tuning.

knowing someone who knows someone who dyno'd this isnt really a good argument.

12.8's huh? Well most tracks correct for altitude. I seriously doubt a turbo'd D can run low 12's with just what approximately 200 WHP? Unless they are cutting some serious 60 foots with a crazy suspension. U see your RPM issue u are talking u need to take into consideration the gearing differences. Lets just face it. The Z6 tranny is horribly geared. 110 MPH in third gear! I had a Z6 tranny on my car. I know how horribly geared they are. Please. As far as all the money he spent. Well woulda, coulda, not gone with some of the parts. But u know what he did. We are talking about what he did do. Not what he didnt do. I was just saying I can go faster with an all-motor H22 for cheaper. Yes u are right about the dyno issues, about not being a very good argument. Thats not the first time I have heard that either. Did u know if u use the GSR ECU a Prelude will actually run faster ET's? It will. It just has an issue with drivability cuz its got a low fuel curve tunning issue.
This is exactly the problem with Dynos. They arent a very good effective way to tell how fast the car is. BTW have u ever noticed that an All-motor car making the exact same amount of horsepower as a boosted engine, the all-motor car will always come out on top? Its strange, and it shouldnt really happen cuz the boosted car should kill it in the torque region. But it does. once again dynos really dont tell much when it comes to ET's.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
12.8's huh? Well most tracks correct for altitude. I seriously doubt a turbo'd D can run low 12's with just what approximately 200 WHP? Unless they are cutting some serious 60 foots with a crazy suspension. U see your RPM issue u are talking u need to take into consideration the gearing differences. Lets just face it. The Z6 tranny is horribly geared. 110 MPH in third gear! I had a Z6 tranny on my car. I know how horribly geared they are. Please. As far as all the money he spent. Well woulda, coulda, not gone with some of the parts. But u know what he did. We are talking about what he did do. Not what he didnt do. I was just saying I can go faster with an all-motor H22 for cheaper. Yes u are right about the dyno issues, about not being a very good argument. Thats not the first time I have heard that either. Did u know if u use the GSR ECU a Prelude will actually run faster ET's? It will. It just has an issue with drivability cuz its got a low fuel curve tunning issue.
This is exactly the problem with Dynos. They arent a very good effective way to tell how fast the car is. BTW have u ever noticed that an All-motor car making the exact same amount of horsepower as a boosted engine, the all-motor car will always come out on top? Its strange, and it shouldnt really happen cuz the boosted car should kill it in the torque region. But it does. once again dynos really dont tell much when it comes to ET's.

if your z6 topped out at 110 in third then you dont have a z6 tranny or you have really big wheels, since a z6 tranny tops out at 90mph in 3rd. i dont know what tracks you've been to but the ones here in az dont correct for altitude, people always go up to phoenix which is about 1000ft lower just to get better times.

why do you keep saying a dyno isnt gonna tell you what the car is capagle of running? anybody with common sense knows that peak #'s dont tell crap, thats why they look at the whole chart.

have you seen a n/a b16 race a boosted 160hp d civic? the boosted d civic wins everytime.

Originally posted by AzCivic
if your z6 topped out at 110 in third then you dont have a z6 tranny or you have really big wheels, since a z6 tranny tops out at 90mph in 3rd. i dont know what tracks you've been to but the ones here in az dont correct for altitude, people always go up to phoenix which is about 1000ft lower just to get better times.

why do you keep saying a dyno isnt gonna tell you what the car is capagle of running? anybody with common sense knows that peak #'s dont tell crap, thats why they look at the whole chart.

have you seen a n/a b16 race a boosted 160hp d civic? the boosted d civic wins everytime.

so did these two cars make the same power? if so how do u know? How much boost? I think u are really guessing the power output here between your n/a B16, and your turbo D. I think that u are guessing the power output here, but u dont really know.
I initially had a JDM spec D15B8 tranny which topped out 130 MPH in third gear. The Z6 on my car topped at 110 MPH with 195/50/15's. So u tell me. As far as a your turbo D and all motor B16 well. The question is are they making the same HP? Ok let me simplify it. lets say u have two cars. A turbo B18C5 making 230 WHP. Versus an all motor B18C5 making exactly 230 WHP also. Like I said for some reason the all-motor car always wins (given that the other factors are constant, drivers, etc's, and things like that). I think its the smoother, power curve, or possibly the turbo car just makes too much torque to properly handle down the track. I cant really explain it but a all-motor car HP is just "stronger". For some strange reason.
Lets put it this way. I dont believe a 200 WHP turbo D with a stock suspension with slicks will run a low 12. I can see possibly a high 12 if hes lucky. No more.
The dyno doesnt tell how fast your car is. There are other factors involved here. Well lets look at a little factor here. The H22 sits very far forward in the Civic chassis. That makes it good for straigh line traction, but not so good for cornering. Basically it gives the H22 in a Civic a bit of advantage out of the hole than the D series Civic. Thats just one factor. Like I have said before, a dyno is good bragging rights, and a good way to tune your car, but it is not a good representation of how fast the car will be. Sure u can look at the graph, and the power curves, but u cant tell me that if two graphs are very similar and say on the graph the power curves cross each other at several periods and eventually end up at exactly the same WHP that one car will win over the other. Sure u can tell if one car makes a ton more power than say another engine. Bottom line is the ET's is what matters. U can come up with dyno graphs all day but it just doesnt mean much until u get it to the track.

Originally posted by AzCivic
alot of civics with just a turbo kit and proper tuning run in the 13's, and they still have a/c and power steering.

H22A shipped 1800 dollars.
Turbo kit for 2000 dollars? What are u nuts. U have to put an intercooler on it too. When its all said and done your looking at 3,000 for the turbo kit. Lets not forget the machine work and the parts he put in. you are looking at atleast 1500 dollars for the machine work not to mention all the other parts. So what we are looking at 2,000 to 3,000 dollars for all the parts and machine work plus 3,000 for the turbo kit. Hmm 5,000 to 6,000 dollars, thats not including the exhaust, and clutch. Like I said. H22, is cheaper and it will get u there faster.


Ohh BTW I have heard 8-10 pounds of boost, drag radials/ or slicks, proper ECU tune can get u into high 13's in a hatch. Yes I am well aware of that. We are talking about 12's not 13's. I dont know whyu want to throw this in there. There is a HUGE difference trying to get a car into the 13's and getting one into the 12's. I have owned a 12 second car (FYI it was not a honda). It appears quite apparant to me u have never owned a 12 second car. Your statements implies that u have no real concept of what it takes, and how hard it is to get a car into the 12's.

[pdiggitydogg]

but who is really interested in ALL the work that goes into putting that h22 into a civic?
not everyone knows that its so involved....there is so much that needs to be done.

Plus, who says you have to buy a turbo kit? There are lots of ways to make custom kits that have good parts for less than $1.5k

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
but who is really interested in ALL the work that goes into putting that h22 into a civic?
not everyone knows that its so involved....there is so much that needs to be done.

Plus, who says you have to buy a turbo kit? There are lots of ways to make custom kits that have good parts for less than $1.5k

I understand that u can make your own kit for about 1.5 K. I was using the normal price for people who arent apt at making their own. Basically your average joe. BTW i dont think the H22 is indepth as u think it is.

Ohh yea one more thing I forgot to mention. WTF are we arguing about a little D series that is making 283 HP when the guy spent like 6 thousand dollars building it. Personally its not the best bang for your buck. What he should have done was spend about 2K for the B18B engine and the B16 tranny and boost that. It can handle 300FHP just fine on stock internals, not to mention the B18B will blow that little D series away in a race. Just my two cents though.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

so whats up now? are we gonna have a D vs H thread too?? or a H vs B? even better would be Toast vs Cereals

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
so whats up now? are we gonna have a D vs H thread too?? or a H vs B? even better would be Toast vs Cereals

only if u want I guess. It doesnt really matter to me. Im not going to say the H is better than a B or a D. There are certain advantages in each and disadvantages. It just depends on what u are looking for to be honest. If u are looking for straight line, well the H's have definately more potential and mildly modifed will stomp any D series or B series with the same mods. Unfortunately the car wont handle quite as good as say a D series Civic, and the swap is a bit harder than the B series. Say if u want to get involved in SCCA autocross then definately a D series cant be beat on the course. The B series is an easy swap, generally yields more power than the D's, but dont handle quite as good as the D's either. So u decided what u want and your goals are.

[AzCivic]

well after all your writing you seemed to leave out a few details, like how much your h22 swap is really gonna cost, 1800 is not it BTW. I looked into it too, used to think the same as you until i realized that it'd cost about the same as doing a GSR swap but with more of a pain in the ass and either no a/c or power steering. i also like how you used the cheapest price possible for an h22(i've never seen 'em for 1800 shipped) yet go on with high ass prices for the turbo d series.

then you go on to argue about how were talking about 12's when i replied to SOMEONE ELSE about how its easy to get a turbo'd d civic into 13's.

and going by your #'s up there of how much it'll cost to turbo/rebuild a dseries engine, if it cost that much they better be making well over 300whp if not 400, just like the engine from the link could handle, only they're using a pretty small turbo.

[AzCivic]

once again your tranny IS NOT a z6. go take a friends EX out on the high way in 3rd and prove it to yourself.

[pdiggitydogg]

dude...I know sure as hell that the H is a hell of a lot of work
maybe you dont think it is, but compared to what needs to be done for a B to be put in, it is.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=650329

h-t user tHIS oNE's image


I dont know about you, but at a 1.5" drop, I wouldnt want my oil pan that low to the ground......

[AzCivic]

its as easy as pie pdigg, and it only costs $1800

Originally posted by AzCivic
its as easy as pie pdigg, and it only costs $1800

I never said it was easy. It is a bolt in with HASPORT mounts. Obviously there are mods to the wiring harness, and other things. Anyways...

JDM H22A, tranny, ECU, shifter cables, shifter assembly, resistor box ALL FOR 1900 DOLLARS!!!!!!!

Did I mention this is my install going into my car that is already paid for and sitting at my house?
So tell me again that u cant get and engine, and tranny for 1800 dollars shipped. Please. U dont know what u are talking about.

BTW have u caught on where I live or are u still clueless???

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
dude...I know sure as hell that the H is a hell of a lot of work
maybe you dont think it is, but compared to what needs to be done for a B to be put in, it is.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=650329

h-t user tHIS oNE's image


I dont know about you, but at a 1.5" drop, I wouldnt want my oil pan that low to the ground......

what mount kit did that person use?

Originally posted by AzCivic
well after all your writing you seemed to leave out a few details, like how much your h22 swap is really gonna cost, 1800 is not it BTW. I looked into it too, used to think the same as you until i realized that it'd cost about the same as doing a GSR swap but with more of a pain in the ass and either no a/c or power steering. i also like how you used the cheapest price possible for an h22(i've never seen 'em for 1800 shipped) yet go on with high ass prices for the turbo d series.

then you go on to argue about how were talking about 12's when i replied to SOMEONE ELSE about how its easy to get a turbo'd d civic into 13's.

and going by your #'s up there of how much it'll cost to turbo/rebuild a dseries engine, if it cost that much they better be making well over 300whp if not 400, just like the engine from the link could handle, only they're using a pretty small turbo.

Ok well we are talking about what he did make not what he could. If he went with a larger turbo then u have more lag, and less drivability. So its really a toss up there.



U want me to spell it out for u????


ok.

-H22A engine, ECU, tranny, shifter cables, shifter assembly, resistor box... $1900
-HASPORT mount kit $650
-HASPORT modified rear tranny bracket $75
-Driveshaft shop hybrid stage one axles $400
-ECU OBD II to OBD I adapter (if needed) $220
-prelude throttle cable $20
-home modified Civic wiring harness
-home modified transmission tunnel
-home modified exhaust
-Ebay short ram $40
total = $3305
(Give your self about 200 dollars for the home moding parts)
ok so we are here at 3500 dollars and should run around 13.4's
on slicks.

Az civic seems to believe that all swaps cost 1million dollers.

Mine was expensive cause i had unforseen wiring probs and wanted a "clean" fix - not a hack job.

Originally posted by cashizslick
Az civic seems to believe that all swaps cost 1million dollers.

Mine was expensive cause i had unforseen wiring probs and wanted a "clean" fix - not a hack job.

I noticed

[ebpda9]

not all swaps are expensive. the h22 can be had for under 2k complete. i was contemplating on putting that on my car and then turbo it. looking at jeremy's header and my exhaust manifold the turbo parts seem to fir perfectly on the h22 and f22.

[AzCivic]

ehh, swaps suck.

[silver]

i'm so tired of hearing about the if you did this and i heard this and stuff. use what you "know" not what you heard.

a turbo vs. na setup on the same motor with the same whp and all the same variables will not give you a turbo will always win or na will always win. the only way you could even begin to guess who would win without racing is to look at the dynos. looking at merely the peak hp and making sure that they are the same does not mean that you are comparing apples to apples. is the peak hp and tq made at the same rpm? what about fuel/air/spark, both setups will not have the same settings, not possible. claiming that anyone will beat the other one was a bad idea for an observation with just a little thought.

you cannot compare an h22 to a d motor and the gains that they would make on paper or on a dyno. too many other factors will play a part in such a race. weight and distribution, suspension setups, everything would play a role, not just the motor. turbo d series eg with a t28 ball bearing of an sr20det plus all the other necessary setup to complete it, putting down 262hp @12psi to the wheels, apexi n1 coilovers plus lots of other susupension goodies, with a/c and all the other nicities, runs a 13.1 e.t.(after 3 runs) how do i know this? i built the car, using the turbo from my s14, which dynoed mid 400's in hp earlier in the day, and had my ass handed to me while running a 13.6. he had a higher trap speed then me as well. price of the turbo setup? $3700. that includes an upgraded clutch also. and it ran on nitto 555's. i understand he has since run a 12.6 with slicks. (i ran the car also and put down a 13.8 on just one run) now would you like to know what that car did to the h22 powered ek hatch with i/h/e? h22 ran a 13.9...i was the driver. that was my best run, i couldn't get traction...and my daily driver is a spec-v, so it's not like i don't have the experience with tq heavy fwd cars.

the h22 is an ass kicker motor, but it takes just as much work as any other motor to make it fast, like every motor it has as many cons as pros. there are so many factors to building a car that these silly arguments will never solve until you actually go head to head with controlled variables.

feel free to ask me for more real world examples.