Whaddaya Think, Gentelemen?

[2ndGenTeg]

I'm starting a new system, from scratch. Everything has been selected except subs, and, therefore, amps.

I have chosen JL Audio for a number of reasons, the foremost of which is they also sound great when used correctly, and they're very power efficient for the output you get.

Opinions, please.

All three setups would recieve comparable power (an amp rated at between one and a half and twice their RMS max, with the gain turned down).

[TonitrusEN]

I voted for 1 12" W7.. reason is...


Its going to rock, and in Imports.. rockin is good, but EVERYTHING RATTLES

im not talking your liscense plate... im talking.. theres things in my dash that rattle with 2 12" Solobarics... its about the most annoying thing in the world

With the tight bass your going to get from a W7 i think youll be happy though... i guess with the power of a W7 your going to be rockin more than me though, those things pound...

[Accord Man]

I'd also go with the W7..

Ultra clean sound and could potentially be the loudest..
3 W3s are a b!tch to get sounding right..

In this field, the only sub that I think is better than a W7 is an IDMAX D2..

Same spl figuers as the W7, but sounds even better... The ID will have the upper hand in an SQ battle. The only area where the IDMAX cant quiet hold up to the W7, is at around 25hz and lower. the difference was around 2-3 db max..

Which is useless in everyday listening/SPL/SQ. but thats how it is..

[2ndGenTeg]

I also looked at all the Image Dymamics stuff. The review in CSR a couple months ago of the idMax was quite favorable, to say the least. That also got me looking at the IDQs and the IDs. In the end, though, after looking at numerous factors including cost and especially power efficiency, I chose to go with the JLs.

[Accord Man]

I cant be accurate about costs.. so I wont go there.. But I believe they both are in the same range

About power efficiency, why are you saying that.. The IDMAX is much less power hungry than the W7..
So, I dont quiet get what you're saying..

BUt heres another question, what do you use your stereo for?

Originally posted by Accord Man
I'd also go with the W7..

Ultra clean sound and could potentially be the loudest..
3 W3s are a b!tch to get sounding right..

In this field, the only sub that I think is better than a W7 is an IDMAX D2..

Same spl figuers as the W7, but sounds even better... The ID will have the upper hand in an SQ battle. The only area where the IDMAX cant quiet hold up to the W7, is at around 25hz and lower. the difference was around 2-3 db max..

Which is useless in everyday listening/SPL/SQ. but thats how it is..

http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...DATED +REVIEW

Read this, it's a very amazing review of both subs. The guy favours the W7's much more. and from what Iunderstand JL's cost more than IDMAX's

[Accord Man]

I read that a while ago.

it all depends on the application.

[2ndGenTeg]

Image Dynamics says to run a good, clean 1000 watts RMS to the 12" iDMax. JL says a good, clean 750 watts RMS to the W7.

The best prices I have found are $450 for the 12" iDMax, and $575 for the 12W7.

Today I found out that JL does not warranty the W7s, period. That probably rules out the W7. I'm not interested in paying $575 for a woofer that if it blows, I'm SOL.

Here's the chart I referenced when comparing Image Dynamics and JL woofers (all models are 12"), and the setups I'm considering:

Model Cost Power #Drivers FinalCost FinalPower
iDMax 450 1000 1 450 1000
IDQ 200 350 3 600 1050
ID 120 200 5 600 1000
W7 570 750 1 570 750
W3v2 180 300 3 540 900
W0 110 125 5 550 625

In addition, most manufacturers do not manufacture woofers with impedences designed to work with an odd number of drivers. Image Dynamics happens to be one of them. Their woofers only come in dual 2 or 4 ohm voice coil configurations. This makes making a power efficient setup with an odd number of drivers difficult. The closest I could get with 3 IDQs would be a 2.66 ohm or 1.33 ohm load by wiring the voice coils from each woofer in series, and then running the woofers in parallel. In my mind, this is wasting 25% of my power efficiency to the inability to get the desired impedence- 2.66 ohm instead of 2 ohm, 1.33 ohm instead of 1 ohm (remember power production is the inverse of impedence- you produce twice as much power at 2 ohms as you do at 4) ( I'm not trying to start a debate- I'm well aware a higher impedence translates to cleaner sound). As for the IDs, they only come in a dual 2 or dual 4 ohm configuration as well. With 5, About the only thing I could do would be to once again wire the voice coils from each woofer in series, then run wire the woofers in parallel. This would yield a 1.6 ohm load- 37.5% loss in efficiency.

JL happens to make dual 6 ohm voice coil W3v2s. So I could wire all six voice coils in parallel to 1 ohm stable amp and get the most out of it (0% loss). With the 5 W0s, I sould get the 12 ohm models, and wire them in parallel to get a 2.4 ohm load, and run them with a 2 ohm stable amp (only a 20% loss in efficiency).

And the reason that's a big deal to me is this: If I have a 0% loss in power efficiency, and I need a 1000 watt amp, I go buy a 1000 watt amp. If I have a 33% loss in efficiency and need a 1000 watt amp, I have to buy a 1500 watt amp- 500 watts I didn't have to pay for if I had just planned my system a little better. In addition, I don't have to power that 33%, i.e. I have a 40 amp draw on my battery rather than a 60 amp draw.

Long winded, I know, but now you know why I'm leaning toward the 3 W3v2s.

[black95gs-t]

just out of curiosity, where did you hear that jl does not warranty the w7's?
J

oh and by the way, from your choices, i would go 3 w3v2's, but if it were my car i would go 3 w6v2's.
J

[Accord Man]

try checking out setups with these subs.. I'Ve seen around 5 setups with the W7, and 8 with the IDMAX, and its quiet apparent that the IDMAX will have a higher output (at same wattage), than the W7. Both being in *ideal* condtions. Most of who are IASCA competitors.

About your final impedance // % used theory.. I wouldnt worry too much about that.. I mean, if your setup's final impedance is lets say 2ohms and your able to use your amp (max at 2 ohms) at 100%, great!

If your setyup yields a 2.66 final impedance, and your forced to get a bigger amp.. An amp that is capable of running at 2 ohms, well thats even better, IMO.. I hate pushing components to their maximum physical limits, especially amps. In this scenario, even when pushing at max , the amp will be running well below its maximum power.. So this translates to ultra clean sound even at very high intensity and very little stress on the amp..

Imagine if one day while your bumping hard, your amp kicks into thermal protection.. eww, thats scary.



Did you ever test the IDMAX?


On another note, what car are you buying?

[2ndGenTeg]

There's a trade off here.

If you run a higher impedence, it will be easier on the amp. However, you're gonna have to turn the gains up higher to compensate, which is harder on the amp.

If you run a higher impedence, the subs will run cleaner. But you'll have to turn up the gains to compensate, which results in less clean sound.

That's why I don't subscribe to the higher impedence school of thought. In the end it's paying for power you're not using. And if I'm gonna do that anyway, I'm just gonna turn down the gain.

I have a buddy at a shop who told me when I was there yesterday that the W7 does not get a warranty of any kind. It's because dumbasses are gonna bump the hell out of them, and they're gonna blow. They're gonna try and run it with a 500 watt Rampage amp with the gains maxed out, and it'll fry. And JL knows it. I'd do the same thing if I were JL.

Haven't "tested" an IDMAX, but I heard it- incredible. It was also being run by its own Zapco Comp 9.0, so it's really unfair to say.

The car- I need something I can take to the mountains. I've been skiing and hiking a lot lately, and my dropped suspension isn't taking too kindly to it. Potential possibilities: 3.2 TL Type S, Pilot, WRX, Tacoma, or a Durango (e-GAD!!! An American car!!!). I'm not gonna worry about it too much until after my car is gone.

[Accord Man]

haha, not an american?!:o

But you've got my top 2 cars in that list : WRX (maybe better for the mountains)!! TL-S (oh, gotta love the class)!!


I feel a debate coming, but I'm just too happy to debate right now..
Well here it is anyways ( please dont contest )
You know this, your probably just not thinking right..
The Gain isnt what has a direct effect on how hard the amp is working.. Its the signal!! So, if your signal is weak you need to dial in a little more on the gain.

Now you might think, that by doing so you will boost the signal so much, that your sine wave will be clipped and result in ending up has some sort of a square wave. But there are many ways around this. The simplest, use a HU that has like 4+ volts on the preouts, you can set the sub controle on the HU high enough, and you can set the gain on the amp high enough.. Boosting at multiple point drastically reduces the chances of clipping a wave.


ok, I'm off to get another drink..

[2ndGenTeg]

On preamp voltage: An amplifier is exactly that. It takes its input signal, and, well, amplifies it. If it gets a stronger input signal, the output will obviously be greater. And if your preamp voltage is boosted, you can dial down the gains and get the same amount of output.

I like to think of it like this: The gain is a control of the balance between absolute power output, and the cleanliness of that power. The further down you turn the gain, the less power you'll get, but the cleaner that power will be.

Agreed (And we'll stop there)?

[Accord Man]

nope..

but we'll still stop here..

We should still be able to manage with what we know..

[2ndGenTeg]

Fair Enough. I personally can't stand pissing contests.

Clean out your PM box, and we'll discuss amongst ourselves.

[Accord Man]

Word!


I did clean out my box a while ago.. Its at 33.75% full..

grr, let me speak Mr Webmaster about this..

[Accord Man]

On another note.. If you liked the W7 so much.. Why not get A Braham?

Now there's an all around killer.

[black95gs-t]

Point of info. JL does offer a warranty on all of their speakers, including W7, as long as you buy it from one of their authorized dealers. The W7 however, unlike their other speakers, is only warrantied up to a certain amount of wattage.
J

[Addict]

W7. I'd only do one. I like bass, but hate additional weight.

Originally posted by Accord Man
Word!
I did clean out my box a while ago.. Its at 33.75% full..

grr, let me speak Mr Webmaster about this..

Clear out your sent items too. They count towards the total.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by Civic_Addict
W7. I'd only do one. I like bass, but hate additional weight.

Clear out your sent items too. They count towards the total.

I hope thats whats f'ing up my PM system..

voted

[guprestyle]

If you want to go wit JLs I'd go with the w7. Jl subs are nice, but if you want to fEel the bass go with kicker solobaric l7s.


guprestyle
2002coupev6

like accord man..i say go with the adire audio brahma. the lowest distortion rate of any sub right now. offers very high excursion which is good for SPL too. not to mention the flattest BL curve of any sub. very flat and unpeaky like other sub.

or you can get the elemental design SP series sub. they should give the W7 a run, for half of the price

audiomobile EVO-R is also a great contender against the W7