For BDC

[2ndGenTeg]

The man with the mad advice-

What spark plugs should I use?

Basic bolt-ons, 113K on motor.

ill answer anyway..


STOCK.. you would gain nothing really by going with some rediculous plugs.. especialy with just bolt ons..

[2ndGenTeg]

I've read that, too. I know with some modifications (nitrous comes to mind almost immediately), other plugs are desirable.

I also know BDC often has insight or has done research above and beyond what most of us take for granted- I never would have thought to use Purolator filters without his recommendation.

Long story short, I just want to hear what BDC has to say.

[2ndGenTeg]

It finally occurred to me to use the search function.

BDC- you recommend the NGK V-power due to its copper core and cost-effectiveness. How does that compare with stock?

in my car (with nitrous) i use colder ngk plugs.. but as you said lets see what he says.. i say stock ngks are fine..

[2ndGenTeg]

Actually, BDC, while you're at it-

Do you have an opinion on plug wires and fuel filters (not AEM)?

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
The man with the mad advice-

What spark plugs should I use?

Basic bolt-ons, 113K on motor.

Well, you aren't going to believe this, but I've been running 99-cent #318 Champion Copper Plus spark plugs lately, and I've been extremely happy with them. Personally, I like copper core spark plugs. You just have to change them more often than (say) plats or rids. I change them every 15k or so. NGK V-Powers are always a safe bet, but I REALLY have grown to prefer the Champion Copper Plus plugs. They last longer than the NGK's and I could swear they run better...

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Iridium plugs are advertised as having about half the resistance of platinum plugs [which are horribly ineffecient to begin with], while supposedly lasting about twice as long. Such plugs also are advertised as having overall better performance, while requiring less voltage to fire off. That's pure hype IMO! If you wanna believe in the spark plug fairy, be my guest, but that's 'blue sky' thinking as far as I'm concerned...

The performance and voltage benefits described in iridium plug advertising can be realized using a better set of spark plug wires, than what came stock from the factory, hence my Magnecor recommendation.

Why the hell would someone waste money on iridium plugs without installing better spark plug wires in the first place? And, if you get something akin to Magnecor 'cable' quality, why the hell would you need iridiums?

See my point?

Spark plugs have been around for over 100 years and they haven't changed a lot. They spark, they erode, they die. The trick is to replace them somewhere between 'erode' and 'die' phases.

All the improvements, so called, have been to the electrode TIP. Nothing has been done to the ground electrode. So, what we have now are spark plugs with wonderful 'new millenium' plugs with WELDED TIPS that last forever and sh!tty ground electrodes that erode just like they did in 1920.

What's the best IMHO? Generally speaking, for most ppl, that would be the 'tried and true' copper-core spark plug, i.e. the NGK V-Powers. They work great, they're cheap, but they don't last very long. The hot setup, if you'll pardon the pun, is to replace them every 15-20k. That'll put you right in the middle of that erode/fail cycle I was talking about.

The absolute best, of course, are silver-core plugs. But, they're expensive, hard to find, and don't come in as many different flavors as copper-core plugs.

As far as which plugs are the most efficient:



Once again, silver-core is the best, but copper-core is a close second.

One thing to mention here is the thermal conductivity thing. One of the most important features of a spark plug is its ability to carry heat away from the combustion chamber. THIS IS MUY IMPORTANTE! And, that's the primary reason you are supposed to use a torque wrench when you install plugs; to allow proper heat transfer. I don't want to put you to sleep, so we won't go any further into this other than to say, look at the chart and you will see copper-core is far and away a better choice than than tiny platinum or iridium welded tip plugs.

Hope this helps. Personally, I think Iridium TIPPED plugs are a waste of money. If you're going to 'waste' your money, buy copper-core plugs and replace them at every oil change. That add about $8.00 to the cost of the 'oil change', but your engine will ALWAYS be running at peak performance levels.

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

As far as spark plug wires go, most ppl will tell you to go with NGK's. OEM wires, BTW, are not made by NGK, as many ppl think. OEM wires are made by either Sumitomo and Nichiwa Kiki. Personally, I like Magnecor spark plug wires. Magnecor makes the best wires, but their connectors are a little strange. If you put too much silicone grease on them during installation, they WILL pop off, but that's just bad installation, you know, not the fault of the wires. If you don't feel like popping for Magnecor's (that's a pun son), just go the OEM route. OEM's are about $40 a set at most dealers.

Anyway, here's another copy 'n' paste talking about the fabled NGK wires:

SOURCE: NGK Website
CONSTRUCTION

A ferrite magnetic layer consisting of a mixture of rubber, plastic and powdered ferrite magnetic materials... NGK wires have a lower resistance than conventional carbon core wires (8k ohm/meter vs. 16k ohm/meter)... At the center of NGK Resistor Spark Plug Wire Sets is a fiberglass stranded core... High quality EPDM and Silicone coverings are used to resist high heat, oil and chemical damage for increased durability... NGK Resistor Spark Plug Wire Sets utilize a construction method known as "variable pitch" wire winding to create resistance to radio frequency interference.

SOURCE: Magnecor Website
LOW-RESISTANCE" SPIRAL WIRES [ i.e. NGK wires - bdc]

By far the most popular conductor used in ignition wires destined for race and performance street engines are spiral conductors (a.k.a. mag, pro, super, spiral, monel, heli, energy, ferro, twin core etc.). Spiral conductors are constructed by winding fine wire around a core. Almost all manufacturers use constructions which reduce production costs in an endeavor to offer ignition component marketers and mass-merchandisers cheaper prices than those of their competitors.

In the USA in particular, most marketers of performance parts selling their products through mass-merchandisers and speed shops include a variety of very effective high-output ignition systems together with a branded not-so-effective ignition wire line using a spiral conductor. Most perpetually try to out-do their competitors by offering spiral conductor ignition wires with the lowest electrical resistance. Some publish results which show their wires are superior to a competitor's wires which use identical cable (on which another brand name is printed). The published "low" resistance (per foot) is measured with a test ohmmeter's 1 volt direct current (DC) passing through the entire length of the fine wire used for the spiral conductor.

"Low-resistance" conductors are an easy sell, as most people associate all ignition wire conductors with original equipment and replacement ignition wire carbon conductors (which progressively fail as a result of microscopic carbon granules burning away and thus reducing the spark energy to the spark plugs) and with solid wire zero-resistance conductors that were used by racers with no need for suppression. Consumers are easily led into believing that if a spiral conductor's resistance is almost zero, its performance must be similar to that of a solid metal conductor all race cars once used. HOWEVER, NOTHING IS FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!

What is not generally understood (or is ignored) is that as a result of the laws of electricity, the potential 45,000 plus volts (with alternating current characteristics) from the ignition coil (a pulse type transformer) does not flow through the entire the length of fine wire used for a spiral conductor like the 1 volt DC voltage from a test ohmmeter, but flows in a magnetic field surrounding the outermost surface of the spiral windings (skin effect). The same skin effect applies equally to the same pulsating flow of current passing through carbon and solid metal conductors.

A spiral conductor with a low electrical resistance measured by an ohmmeter indicates, in reality, nothing other than less of the expensive fine wire is used for the conductor windings — a construction which cannot achieve a clean and efficient current flow through the magnetic field surrounding the windings, resulting in poor suppression for RFI and EMI.

Of course, ignition wire manufacturers save a considerable amount in manufacturing costs by using less fine wire, less exotic winding machinery and less expertise to make low-resistance spiral conductors. As an incentive, they find a lucrative market amongst performance parts marketers who advertise their branded ignition wires as having "low-resistance" conductors, despite the fact that such "low-resistance" contributes nothing to make spiral ignition wires perform better, and RFI and EMI suppression is compromised.

In recent years, most ignition wire manufacturers, to temporarily improve their spiral conductor's suppression, have resorted to coating excessively spaced spiral windings, most of which are crudely wound around strands of <u>fiberglass</u> or Kevlar, with a heavy layer of high-resistance carbon impregnated conductive latex or silicone compound. This type of construction hides the conductive coating's high resistance when the overall conductor is measured with a test ohmmeter, which only measures the lower resistance of the sparse spirally wound wire (the path of least resistance) under the conductive coating and ignores the high resistance of the outermost conductive coating in which the spark energy actually travels. The conductive coating is rarely shown or mentioned in advertisement illustrations.

The suppression achieved by this practice of coating the windings is only temporary, as the spark current is forced to travel through the outermost high-resistance conductive coating in the same manner the spark current travels through the outermost high-resistance conductive coating of a carbon conductor used in most original equipment and stock replacement wires.

In effect, (when new) a coated "low-resistance" spiral conductor's true performance is identical to that of a high-resistance carbon conductor.

Unfortunately, and particularly with the use of high-output ignitions, the outermost high-resistance conductive coating over spiral windings acting as the conductor will fail from burn out in the same manner as carbon conductors, and although in most cases, the spiral conductor will not cease to conduct like a high-resistance carbon conductor, any RFI or EMI suppression will be lost as a consequence of the coating burning out. The worst interference will come from the so-called "super conductors" that are wound with copper (alloy) wire.

However, despite the shortcomings of "low-resistance" spiral conductor ignition wires, these wires work satisfactorily on older production vehicles and race vehicles that do not rely on electronic engine management systems, or use on-board electronics effected by EMI — although with the lowest-resistance conductor wires, don't expect much RFI suppression on the AM band in poor reception areas.

Some European and Japanese original equipment and replacement ignition wires including Bougicord and <u>NGK</u> do have spiral conductors that provide good suppression — usually none of these wires are promoted as having low- resistance conductors — however, <u>none are ideal for competition use, as their conductors and pin-type terminations are fragile and are known to rarely last as long as good carbon conductor ignition wires.[/u]

To be effective in carrying the full output from the ignition system and suppressing RFI and EMI in particular, spiral conductors need windings that are <u>microscopically close</u> to one another and precisely spaced and free from conductive coatings. To be more effective, the windings need to be wound over a core of magnetic material — a method too costly for wires sold through mass-merchandisers and most speed shops who purchase only the cheapest (to them) and most heavily promoted products.

Sorry if I've put you to sleep, but the Cliff-Note version is: NGK is a shi!tty design and no different than all the rest of the pretenders on the market. If you use NGK wires, expect to replace them just like you do batteries and tires, as they wear out at about the same rate. Buy Magnecor's once, and they will last you for the life of your car...

[2ndGenTeg]

Thanks, BDC- I knew you'd have way more info than I needed.

[slowEJ6]

i said it once, ill say it again. BDC is the man.

Originally posted by slow ej6
i said it once, ill say it again. BDC is the man.

He doesnt post too often here, but - i remember some crazy debates he lead on another forum -superhonda.com

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by cashizslick
He doesnt post too often here, but - i remember some crazy debates he lead on another forum -superhonda.com

Let me tell you the way it is, my friends!

I come here every day and do my duty. Do you know what that means? That means I am committed to this site; to this forum, and to the ppl that use it.

I am one of the driving forces in the Honda Community, or whatever the phuck you want to call it, both here and elsewhere; mostly elsewhere. You know it and so do I. I have served a year-and-a-half here, letting YOU, the user, do what you want.

I have tried to be as invisible as possible. It is MY theory that mods should be seldom seen and 'heard' even less. Truth be known, I don't care much for moderators, the little demigods that they are.

Main Entry: mod·er·a·tor
Function: noun
Date: circa 1560
1 : one who arbitrates : MEDIATOR
2 : one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as a : the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body b : the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting c : the chairman of a discussion group...

Main Entry: demi·god
Function: noun
Date: 1530
1 : a mythological being with more power than a mortal but less than a god
2 : a person so outstanding as to seem to approach the divine

I could very easily have turned this into the the BDC Show. I know how to do it, but I DO NOT want to do it. Instead, I let you guys rule the day, talking about whatever the phuck you want to talk about.

Sure, I have banned a few ppl from this site, and I occasionally move a thread or two, but I don't sit over here like a tyranical asshole and bend you to my will.

I appreciate the favorable comments that have been bestowed upon me in this thread and others, but I leave it to YOU, the user, to make this forum what it is. I believe it is upon YOU to make this the place which it is, or isn't, not me. I'm not going to float it, sink it, or revive it. It's strictly up to you...

Recently, as many of you know, 'we' got 'our' asses kicked by Honda Corp. 'They' said 'we' were acting as if 'we' were an official branch of 'their' company, by use of 'their' registered and branded name --- Honda --- but I think 'we' have recovered nicely, even seemlessly, from 'their' bogus 'cease and desist' notice.

Personally, I say, "Phuck Honda" --- those yellow-skinned, slanty-eyed, slope-headed motherphuckers!!!" They can take their name and stick it up their collective asses. (Honda Corp - see my sig below)

'We' are now HS Tuners, and the lose is theirs!

It has been confirmed, via closely monitored stats, that this site has taken off since 'we' changed 'our' name. So, stay "Tune'd" my friends. 'We' are going places now that 'we' aren't tethered to the Honda monicker; a name which many associate with mediocrity.

Sorry for the rant, but it needed to be said. This place is better than Honda --- those green, tree-hugging, ULEV, politically-correct, POS's that challenged 'us' over the use of 'their' name.

Honda CiViC's are the '55 Chevy of the 90's. They exist in this country at 'our' whim --- only because they can be easily and cheaply modified into something that 'Honduh' Corp never envisioned. Honda's short-sightedness forced a name change here, but so phucking what? This site's image isn't hurting --- Honda's is...

'We' are HS Tuners now, and we're coming alive as a result. Too bad Honda Corp can't get a clue. Die a slow death Honda!

Let them sell their sh!t to the 'soccer moms' of the world and be relegated to the status of Tampon of the Year. Every 28 days we'll be thinking about you, you bleeding cunts. The rest of the time, stay in the closet where you belong. If I had my way, we'd be bombing you, not Iraq.

I hope you're reading this you sushi-eating Jap car whores. I've been a pain in your ass for several years, and I plan to do the same in the future. Go ahead and sue me, you phucking assholes. It's been tried before by a 20 billion dollar a year corporation and 'they' lost. Maybe you'll have better luck. Or, maybe you can try and scare the sh!t out of the owner again and get me banned, you pig-dick phuckers.

In the meantime, rest assured that I WILL NOT lord it over you guys on HS Tuners. It isn't going to happen. Stay within the lines and nothing bad will happen. Let me take the high-road. I'm used to it...

I have been happy to serve on this site in the past, and I hope to continue in the future. We have a long road ahead of us, for sure, but I think you will be seeing a LOT of new activity here very shortly. The name change has brought in a whole new breed of user, and it is my hope that you will be prepared for the change, and turn this attack into an advantage for us all..

Anyway, that's enough of this sh!t. Carry on... :o

[Racing Rice]

Amen BDC!!

[ebpda9]

amen bdc

[KwikR6]

[comic book nerd voice from simpsons] BEST SPEECH EVER!!!! [/comic book nerd voice from simpsons]

[Addict]

Nice....

Where'd you get those prices though? I know NGK wires can be had for about $55 on most applications. I'v not priced Magnecors lately though. Though I may try them out in the future.

I have to agree with oc though. NGK V-Powers.... I just wouldn't feel right buying inexpensive plugs. They might be ok for most stock vehicles, but I wouldn't trust them once you start adding serious mods(nitrous, f/i. etc). By the same token, I do agree that the iridium plugs are a waste of money.
Just my opinion though.


Good job on the info.

[ShEaNy]

im running Taylor 8mm with NGK V powers or whatever on my accord...is that ok? i havent noticed any real gains (nor should i) and i cant feel a lose either (i hope not) is it possibly to lose horse/power from my set up?

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
im running Taylor 8mm with NGK V powers or whatever on my accord...is that ok?

Well, as I stated earlier, I like copper core plugs. The graph on the last page shows why. NGK V-Powers are fine. So are Champion Copper Plus plugs. That's what I'm running now, and I actually prefer them to the NGK's. Just remember to change them every 15-20k.

As far as 'wires' are concerned, it used to be a simple matter. You used to go out and buy solid-core Belden wiring and put Raja terminals on them. Bada-bing, bada-boom! You had the same setup as Don Garlits.

With the advent of RF-sensative electronics under the hood, this is no longer an option. Have you ever been listening to your AM radio and someone pulls up next to you at a stoplight with a modified VW bug, or whatever, and they're putting out so much RF you can't even hear your radio through the clicks and 'white' noise they're putting out? RF plays havoc on your sensors and ECU, et cetera. So, the first thing is you need wires that don't radiate RF, e.g. electronic noise.

How do 'they' do this? Basically they replace the solid-core wire of old with fiberglass twine (string) that is impregnated with carbon dust. Then, 'they' wrap the fiberglass twine with a loosely wound, hair-thin coil of wire.

With this 'new' technology, your spark is actually traveling down a piece of string. As the carbon particles break down with age, the spark starts taking the path of least resistance. It jumps over to the hair-thin wire sheathing --- it starts shooting out the wire to your engine block, or over to the spark plug 'wire' next to it, et cetera. This is why you need to replace MOST spark plug 'wires' just like you do batteries and tires. They 'wear out' at about the same rate.

In order to make a long story short, very few companies actually make their own spark plug 'wires'. They just buy it from some vendor who marks it with their company's name, yada, yada, yada. In fact, there is very little difference in most spark plug 'wires'. A few companies strike out on their own, like Nology and Magnecor, to name a couple, but 99.9% are basically all the same, i.e. POS. Personally, I put the fabled NGK 'wires' in this category. Taylors, I am sorry to say, are probably the same. I haven't checked them out, but if I did, I am sure that's what I would find.

Until I find something better, my recommendation stands. IMHO, there is no better 'wires' for your Honda than Magnecor KV85 Competition (8.5mm) Cables (their term, not mine). Don't waste your money on R-100 Magnecors. It is same 'wire' inside with a 10mm jacket (this is true of ALL 'wires' BTW), making installation a PITA. Go with KV85's.

http://www.magnecor.com/

A word of warning here, since I mentioned Nology: DO NOT BUY NOLOGY HOTWIRES!!! I know you don't hear a lot about these 'wires' lately, but if you're checking out spark plug wires, sooner or later you will be tempted by their hype. These 'wires' are extremely dangerous to the health of your motor.

For those of you that are considering Nology HotWires, or are running them on your car now, read and heed!

The most notable of exaggerated claims for ignition wires are made by Nology, a recent manufacturer of ignition wires promoted as "the only spark plug wires with built-in capacitor." Nology's "HotWires" (called "Plasma Leads" in the UK) consist of unsuppressed solid metal or spiral conductor ignition wires over which braided metal sleeves are partially fitted. The braided metal sleeves are grounded via straps formed from part of the braiding. Insulating covers are fitted over the braided metal sleeves. These wires are well constructed. For whatever reason, Nology specifies that non-resistor spark plugs need to be used with their "HotWires." In a demonstration, the use of resistor plugs nullifies the visual effect of the brighter spark.

Ignition wires with grounded braided metal sleeves over the cable have come and gone all over the world for (at least) the last 30 years, and similar wires were used over 20 years ago by a few car makers to solve cross-firing problems on early fuel injected engines and RFI problems on fiberglass bodied cars — only to find other problems were created. The recent Circle Track Magazine (USA, May, 1996 issue) test showed Nology "HotWires" produced no additional horsepower (the test actually showed a 10 horsepower decrease when compared to stock carbon conductor wires).

The perceived effect a brighter spark, conducted by an ignition wire, encased or partially encased in a braided metal sleeve (shield) grounded to the engine, jumping across a huge free-air gap (which bears no relationship to the spark needed to fire the variable air/fuel mixture under pressure in a combustion chamber) is continually being re-discovered and cleverly demonstrated by marketers who convince themselves there's monetary value in such a bright spark, and all sorts of wild, completely un-provable claims are made for this phenomena.

Like many in the past, Nology cleverly demonstrates a brighter free-air spark containing useless flash-over created by the crude "capacitor" (effect) of this style of wire. In reality, the bright spark has no more useful energy to fire a variable compressed air/fuel mixture than the clean spark you would see in a similar demonstration using any good carbon conductor wire. What is happening in such a demonstration is the coil output is being unnecessarily boosted to additionally supply spark energy that is induced (and wasted) into the grounded braided metal sleeve around the ignition wire's jacket. To test the validity of this statement, ask the demonstrator to disconnect the ground strap and observe just how much energy is sparking to ground.

Claims by Nology of their "HotWires" creating sparks that are "300 times more powerful," reaching temperatures of "100,000 to 150,000 degrees F" (more than enough to melt spark plug electrodes), spark durations of "4 billionths of a second" (spark duration is controlled by the ignition system itself) and currents of "1,000 amperes" magically evolving in "capacitors" allegedly "built-in" to the ignition wires are as ridiculous as the data and the depiction of sparks in photographs used in advertising material and the price asked for these wires! Most stock ignition primaries are regulated to 6 amperes and the most powerful race ignition to no more than 40 amperes at 12,000 RPM.

It is common knowledge amongst automotive electrical engineers that it is unwise to use ignition wires fitted with grounded braided metal sleeves fitted over ignition cable jackets on an automobile engine. This type of ignition wires forces its cable jackets to become an unsuitable dielectric for a crude capacitor (effect) between the conductor and the braided metal sleeves. While the wires function normally when first fitted, the cable jackets soon break down as a dielectric, and progressively more spark energy is induced from the conductors (though the cable jackets) into the grounded metal sleeves, causing the ignition coil to unnecessarily output more energy to fire both the spark plug gaps and the additional energy lost via the braided metal sleeves. Often this situation leads to ignition coil and control unit overload failures. It should be noted that it is dangerous to use these wires if not grounded to the engine, as the grounding straps will be alive with thousands of volts wanting to ground-out to anything (or body) nearby.

Unless you are prepared to accept poorly suppressed ignition wires that fail sooner than any other type of ignition wires and stretch your ignition system to the limit, and have an engine with no electronic management system and/or exhaust emission controls, it's best not to be influenced by the exaggerated claims, and some vested-interest journalists', resellers' and installers' perception an engine has more power after Nology wires are fitted. Often, after replacing deteriorated wires, any new ignition wires make an engine run better.

Anyway, once again, I recommend bending over and forking out the dough for Magnecor 'wires.' If you don't feel like spending the extra money for a 'lifetime' solution, just go down to your Honda dealer and spend $50.00 every year or two on the OEM Sumitomo and Nichiwa Kiki 'wires.' They'll work just fine, but, like the copper core plugs mentioned above, you'll have to replace them more often...