.:HSTuners::

10-23-2003, 10:02 PM

You know that a turbo car makes power in a different way than an na car.
Go ahead, re-gear a turbo car with shorter ratios and watch its performance numbers drop drasticaly.

This is a pointless argument - there is no way you can say that gearing has nothing to do with the way a car performs. Im not gonna argue something as stupid as this
- ill check for your resonses in the morning, as i have more important things to do (like sleep) than argue with you over weather the sky is blue or not.

*AzCivic* · 10-23-2003, 10:04 PM

way to put words in my mouth smart guy.

read up before you go to bed.

*AzCivic* · 10-23-2003, 10:11 PM

no one else has any input??

IALuder · 10-23-2003, 10:31 PM

i plan to go all motor. if you were going all motor what engine would you buy to put in a 93 Civic Coupe? i want to be a all motor sleeper. and B20s are not a idea i care to hear, they wouldnt last.

*AzCivic* · 10-23-2003, 10:56 PM

h22 or b18c5

*pdiggitydogg* · 10-23-2003, 10:58 PM

its a matter of preference in my opinion
shorter gears will kick the boost up quicker and thus faster, quicker (get it?)
sure the ls will sit you in boost longer...but your still in the same gear while the dude next to you shifts away for power gain

daily driver...id say ls tranny is nice (maybe gsr with modded final drive or even ls 4th and 5th gears)
racing i would for sure go with itr or gsr/b16

and thats my input

Shaved &/or Laid · 10-23-2003, 11:01 PM

The day has finally come. This is tha day that i side with CASHIZSLICK. I know Az is smart, but i definitely agree with cash. What he is saying is that, since boost increases linearly, the car with longer gears stays in the higher powerband for longer. It almost makes my head hurt to think about it, but i see what hes saying. Plus, we have b16's and differentials.

10-24-2003, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by AzCivic
way to put words in my mouth smart guy.

read up before you go to bed.

If you read what you posted, i havent responded to anything you didnt say - just cause you are mad cause you are wrong is stupid, no reason to get mad.

If shorter gearing is so great for a turbo car, go take a turbo supra and give it shorter gears - its 1/4 mile times will be total crap - it may still make the same power on a dyno, but it wont be able to take full advantage of its power with imporper (i.e. shorter) gearing.

**and about telling me to "read up" - i think you might need a little of that yourself**

IALuder · 10-24-2003, 08:45 AM

pdigg, im talking all motor. no boost period. if you were going all motor what motor would you do a swap with b18b b18c1 b18c5? i really dont care about turbos, superchargers, and NoS. i think personally NoS just helps you ruin the motor quicker. even if you know how to shot NoS. NoS to me is like a game cheat, it only helps those who cant win or beat you on their own(stock motor).

*pdiggitydogg* · 10-24-2003, 09:30 AM

again there are those that will put you in your place for n2o...im not one of them

just dont go around talking about motors being pointless...none of them are and each have a niche...people get pissed when you talk shit about their "beloved's"
then again...youre now saying that you werent planning on boost, when just a little while ago, you said

Quote:

Originally posted by SFKing
i will buy a B18c5 and mod/boost that mutha up

now....what are you doing

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cashizslick
If you read what you posted, i havent responded to anything you didnt say - just cause you are mad cause you are wrong is stupid, no reason to get mad.

If shorter gearing is so great for a turbo car, go take a turbo supra and give it shorter gears - its 1/4 mile times will be total crap - it may still make the same power on a dyno, but it wont be able to take full advantage of its power with imporper (i.e. shorter) gearing.

**and about telling me to "read up" - i think you might need a little of that yourself**

"there is no way you can say that gearing has nothing to do with the way a car performs."

I did NOT say this, therefore you put words in my mouth.

as for reading up lets look at some info you thought you knew...

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cashizslick
Because you can ride the added power for a longer ammount of time. - thats why turbo cars have long gear ratios and NA cars have short gear ratios.

lets compare gear ratios of a factory Turbo car and a factory N/A car...

Eclipse turbo: New Civic SI:

Final Drive: 4.93 4.764

1st Gear Ratio: 3.08 3.062
2nd Gear Ratio: 1.68 1.769
3rd Gear Ratio: 1.12 1.212
4th Gear Ratio: .83 .921
5th Gear Ratio: .67 .738

hmmm, the eclipse ends up with a shorter first gear, they both have identical 2nd gears, third finally has the civic with a shorter ratio(3.5mph difference, not really all that much) then 4th is actually decently shorter on the civic where if the shift points and everthing else were the same the civic would shift a whole 8mph sooner than the eclipse.

so the ratios arent really all that different for these cars, hmmm, what if we made the eclipses slightly longer ratios(3, 4) exactly the same as the civic's...I wonder would the eclipse win by an even greater margin or would the civic somehow benefit from the eclipses "mistake"?

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 11:42 AM

Furthermore, If you're really worried about shifting too soon(say against a large displacement V8 where they can go with longer gears and not have much to worry about when racing a 4cylinder car) what could you do to get to a higher MPH before shifting???????????????? RAISE THE REV LIMIT, with a good turbo/head setup you'll be making power beyond the stock redline so why not take advantage of the power up there!?!?!?! with shorter gearing you can! with longer gearing it'll take too long to get up there.

IALuder · 10-24-2003, 12:04 PM

not all motors are pointless, sorry for saying that.

B20 with a b16 head is way to much money to spend. why do that when the engine isnt going to last. like you said, its a good swap for those who only use it for racing (once in awhile). im not agianst those who do this swap, but i dont see the point, when you can get a different motor. not have to trade heads and everything for better compression.

Im planning on all motor. most people use B18c5 in civics for all motor racing.

Im not trying to talk shit either, sorry for those who that. i just posted my opinion.

10-24-2003, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AzCivic

so the ratios arent really all that different for these cars, hmmm, what if we made the eclipses slightly longer ratios(3, 4) exactly the same as the civic's...I wonder would the eclipse win by an even greater margin or would the civic somehow benefit from the eclipses "mistake"?

If you make the eclipses longer gear ratios the same as the civics (which isnt much different) the Civic would benefit since the eclipse wouldnt be able to use as much of its high end ability as it was able to use before.

ANd BTW, raising the rev limit past your max power is useless since you will just continue to loose power if you dont shift - turbo cars benefit from longer gearing since boost increases linearly - the longer you rev w/out shifting, the more your turbo will spool - thus creating more power. Obviously you have to shift at some point, but it is wise to use longer gearing w/turbo since once your turbo is moving, you will be able to make more power at a lower rpm.

This explains why the eclipse has a shorter 1st gear, because it will be able to get its turbo fulley spooled in first, and then take advantage of the spooling to make power during the longer gears.
These stats dont do anything other than support my side of the argument.

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 12:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by cashizslick
If you make the eclipses longer gear ratios the same as the civics (which isnt much different) the Civic would benefit since the eclipse wouldnt be able to use as much of its high end ability as it was able to use before.

uhhh ok sure..

ANd BTW, raising the rev limit past your max power is useless since you will just continue to loose power if you dont shift - turbo cars benefit from longer gearing since boost increases linearly - the longer you rev w/out shifting, the more your turbo will spool - thus creating more power. Obviously you have to shift at some point, but it is wise to use longer gearing w/turbo since once your turbo is moving, you will be able to make more power at a lower rpm.

you will not lose power if the the head allows you to make power beyond the stock revlimit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This explains why the eclipse has a shorter 1st gear, because it will be able to get its turbo fulley spooled in first, and then take advantage of the spooling to make power during the longer gears.
These stats dont do anything other than support my side of the argument.

oh so now a shorter first gear is GOOD on a turbo car.

IALuder · 10-24-2003, 12:25 PM

you two are still fighting? damn

IALuder · 10-24-2003, 12:30 PM

heres some input for you 2.

a car with shorter gear ratios will reach top speeds quicker, but wont reach its max output.

a car with longer ratios will reach higher speeds and at longer time.

depends on how fast you want to reach the end of the 1/4 mile.

shorter ratios are better for a turbo car. if you have a boost controller and turbo timer.

Longer ratios are better if you dont have them.

10-24-2003, 01:39 PM

Az - i will agree that having a short gear ratio for first gear is benificial for the Eclipse cause it will get the turbo to spool up quickly, the reason every other gear in the eclipse is longer than the civic's gears is becaue it is geared to use the power from the fulley spooled turbo for as long as possible without loosing power.

If a turbo is not able to fully spool in first (because its a real big one), then second gear would also need to be made slightly shorter to get the turbo spooled, then the preceeding gears should be long to take advantage of a fully spooled turbo.

A fully spooled turbo gives you a wider range of usable power.

10-24-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AzCivic
Furthermore, If you're really worried about shifting too soon(say against a large displacement V8 where they can go with longer gears and not have much to worry about when racing a 4cylinder car) what could you do to get to a higher MPH before shifting???????????????? RAISE THE REV LIMIT, with a good turbo/head setup you'll be making power beyond the stock redline so why not take advantage of the power up there!?!?!?! with shorter gearing you can! with longer gearing it'll take too long to get up there.

If you are talking about a NA car, this is a good idea,
but raising your rev limit beyond where your max power is stupid since you will lose power if you ride to high. Shorter gearing is benificial to NA cars because their power is constant all the time (i,e, no spooling). Having short gear ratios on an NA car will keep it in its power band at all times.

Having short gearing on a turbo car will rob the car of its potential because its power band will be wider if it's turbo is fully spooled.

10-24-2003, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFKing
you two are still fighting? damn

no, we are not fighting, we are having an intelligent yet heated discussion - lol.

I have nothing against Az personally and have learned from his posts on several occasions in the past - i am arguing with him now because what he is saying doesnt make sence.

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cashizslick
Az - i will agree that having a short gear ratio for first gear is benificial for the Eclipse cause it will get the turbo to spool up quickly, the reason every other gear in the eclipse is longer than the civic's gears is becaue it is geared to use the power from the fulley spooled turbo for as long as possible without loosing power.

If a turbo is not able to fully spool in first (because its a real big one), then second gear would also need to be made slightly shorter to get the turbo spooled, then the preceeding gears should be long to take advantage of a fully spooled turbo.

A fully spooled turbo gives you a wider range of usable power.

the turbo has to respool in EVERY gear, it doesnt stay spooled from the gear before it. you switch gears the BOV bleeds off pressure, the turbo then has to rebuild that pressure when you get back into gear.

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cashizslick
no, we are not fighting, we are having an intelligent yet heated discussion - lol.

I have nothing against Az personally and have learned from his posts on several occasions in the past - i am arguing with him now because what he is saying doesnt make sence.

heated debates are fun for everyone!!!!

10-24-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AzCivic
the turbo has to respool in EVERY gear, it doesnt stay spooled from the gear before it. you switch gears the BOV bleeds off pressure, the turbo then has to rebuild that pressure when you get back into gear.

the BOV bleeds some but not all of the pressure - If the bov bled all the pressure and the turbo stopped spooling, then bov's would be a useless mod and nobody would get them cause it would cause a major loss in power.

Bov's bleed enough pressure to keep the turbo from hurting itself, but not enough to cause the turbo to stopp spinning - thats why turbo cars are able to take advantage of a slightly longer gear ratio than an NA car.

10-24-2003, 02:36 PM

aawww cmon az - you have been online for the past 30 mins and havent replied yet.

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 04:16 PM

I have??? I just got back from physical training with my stupid squadron.

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cashizslick
the BOV bleeds some but not all of the pressure - If the bov bled all the pressure and the turbo stopped spooling, then bov's would be a useless mod and nobody would get them cause it would cause a major loss in power.

Bov's bleed enough pressure to keep the turbo from hurting itself, but not enough to cause the turbo to stopp spinning - thats why turbo cars are able to take advantage of a slightly longer gear ratio than an NA car.

it doesnt matter how much it bleeds, it still bleeds pressure and it wont build back up until you're in the next gear. obviously the turbo isnt going to stop spinnning but its spinning slower in the beginning of each gear than it was at the end of each gear.

Look the more power you have the longer your gears can be without making the car too slow. it has nothing to do with boost, it has to do with power. big v8's make way more power than a boosted 4cylinder, they come stock with longer gears cause they can still run 13 sec 1/4mile times. BUT what is one of their first mods????????????? changing out the rearend gears to make the car ACCELERATE faster.

Boost or no boost shorter gearing makes a vehicle accelerate quicker, longer gears give you a higher top speed and better gas mileage.

There is a way that shorter gears can give you a higher top speed but thats a whole different story.

IALuder · 10-24-2003, 09:24 PM

like i said on page four.

Quote:

heres some input for you 2. a car with shorter gear ratios will reach top speeds quicker, but won’t reach its max output. car with longer ratios will reach higher speeds and at longer time. Depends on how fast you want to reach the end of the 1/4-mile. Shorter ratios are better for a turbo car. If you have a boost controller and turbo timer. Longer ratios are better if you don’t have them.

not sure if qoute worked

IALuder · 10-24-2003, 09:25 PM

it did. success!!

*AzCivic* · 10-24-2003, 09:34 PM

what does a boost controller and a turbo timer have to do with gearing???

Shaved &/or Laid · 10-24-2003, 10:49 PM

DUDE ! LOOK !

i got to feed some kittens today. They were hungry and living in my garage so i gave them food. Then later they liked me.

My fatehr Comands a soy farm ! its fifteen hechachres big.

Why are we arguing about this ?

10-24-2003, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AzCivic
Boost or no boost shorter gearing makes a vehicle accelerate quicker, longer gears give you a higher top speed and better gas mileage.

Well, it seems theres no convincing you - i guess we will just agree to disagree - im tired of this topic.

nonovurbizniz · 10-25-2003, 09:22 PM

^agree to what you want... he's right...

Short gears make you accelerate faster with the same power.

The ONLY reason for longer gears is higher top speed... less frequent shifting... and gas milage...

I personally prefer long gears... The way I see it make you gears long so you can reach higher speeds in each gear and make up the time with more power.

I drove an S4 and the gears were soooo short it was rediculous... almost undrivable imo... I wouldn't buy the car based on it's tranny... It makes it MUCH faster than it would otherwise be but it's not ANY fun to drive imo.

the best way to shorten gears imo is to get more power.

10-25-2003, 11:53 PM

umm, your a little late, but thanks for the input.
Its surprising to hear how everybody thinks its bennificial for turbo cars to have shorter gearing - like i said, im done arguing this for now, but if this topic comes up again ill be there lol

IALuder · 10-26-2003, 11:45 AM

lol...ill be sure to add info that doesnt support anything or anyone 2.

10-23-2003, 10:31 PM	#44
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	i plan to go all motor. if you were going all motor what engine would you buy to put in a 93 Civic Coupe? i want to be a all motor sleeper. and B20s are not a idea i care to hear, they wouldnt last. __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

10-23-2003, 11:01 PM	#47
Shaved &/or Laid 4th Gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Nashville Age: 37 Posts: 853	The day has finally come. This is tha day that i side with CASHIZSLICK. I know Az is smart, but i definitely agree with cash. What he is saying is that, since boost increases linearly, the car with longer gears stays in the higher powerband for longer. It almost makes my head hurt to think about it, but i see what hes saying. Plus, we have b16's and differentials. __________________ Doody Ej1 Yse.

10-24-2003, 08:45 AM	#49
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	pdigg, im talking all motor. no boost period. if you were going all motor what motor would you do a swap with b18b b18c1 b18c5? i really dont care about turbos, superchargers, and NoS. i think personally NoS just helps you ruin the motor quicker. even if you know how to shot NoS. NoS to me is like a game cheat, it only helps those who cant win or beat you on their own(stock motor). __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

10-24-2003, 12:04 PM	#54
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	not all motors are pointless, sorry for saying that. B20 with a b16 head is way to much money to spend. why do that when the engine isnt going to last. like you said, its a good swap for those who only use it for racing (once in awhile). im not agianst those who do this swap, but i dont see the point, when you can get a different motor. not have to trade heads and everything for better compression. Im planning on all motor. most people use B18c5 in civics for all motor racing. Im not trying to talk shit either, sorry for those who that. i just posted my opinion. __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

10-24-2003, 12:25 PM	#57
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	you two are still fighting? damn __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

10-23-2003, 10:02 PM	#41
cashizslick Posts: n/a	You know that a turbo car makes power in a different way than an na car. Go ahead, re-gear a turbo car with shorter ratios and watch its performance numbers drop drasticaly. This is a pointless argument - there is no way you can say that gearing has nothing to do with the way a car performs. Im not gonna argue something as stupid as this - ill check for your resonses in the morning, as i have more important things to do (like sleep) than argue with you over weather the sky is blue or not.

10-23-2003, 10:04 PM	#42
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	way to put words in my mouth smart guy. read up before you go to bed.

10-23-2003, 10:11 PM	#43
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	no one else has any input??

10-23-2003, 10:56 PM	#45
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	h22 or b18c5

10-23-2003, 10:58 PM	#46
pdiggitydogg Yahoo Watashi wa kattaze! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Meanwhile, up in The D... Age: 40 Posts: 10,579	its a matter of preference in my opinion shorter gears will kick the boost up quicker and thus faster, quicker (get it?) sure the ls will sit you in boost longer...but your still in the same gear while the dude next to you shifts away for power gain daily driver...id say ls tranny is nice (maybe gsr with modded final drive or even ls 4th and 5th gears) racing i would for sure go with itr or gsr/b16 and thats my input

10-24-2003, 11:42 AM	#53
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	Furthermore, If you're really worried about shifting too soon(say against a large displacement V8 where they can go with longer gears and not have much to worry about when racing a 4cylinder car) what could you do to get to a higher MPH before shifting???????????????? RAISE THE REV LIMIT, with a good turbo/head setup you'll be making power beyond the stock redline so why not take advantage of the power up there!?!?!?! with shorter gearing you can! with longer gearing it'll take too long to get up there.

10-24-2003, 12:22 PM	#56
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	[quote]Originally posted by cashizslick If you make the eclipses longer gear ratios the same as the civics (which isnt much different) the Civic would benefit since the eclipse wouldnt be able to use as much of its high end ability as it was able to use before. uhhh ok sure.. ANd BTW, raising the rev limit past your max power is useless since you will just continue to loose power if you dont shift - turbo cars benefit from longer gearing since boost increases linearly - the longer you rev w/out shifting, the more your turbo will spool - thus creating more power. Obviously you have to shift at some point, but it is wise to use longer gearing w/turbo since once your turbo is moving, you will be able to make more power at a lower rpm. you will not lose power if the the head allows you to make power beyond the stock revlimit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This explains why the eclipse has a shorter 1st gear, because it will be able to get its turbo fulley spooled in first, and then take advantage of the spooling to make power during the longer gears. These stats dont do anything other than support my side of the argument. oh so now a shorter first gear is GOOD on a turbo car.

10-24-2003, 12:30 PM	#58
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	heres some input for you 2. a car with shorter gear ratios will reach top speeds quicker, but wont reach its max output. a car with longer ratios will reach higher speeds and at longer time. depends on how fast you want to reach the end of the 1/4 mile. shorter ratios are better for a turbo car. if you have a boost controller and turbo timer. Longer ratios are better if you dont have them. __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

10-24-2003, 01:39 PM	#59
cashizslick Posts: n/a	Az - i will agree that having a short gear ratio for first gear is benificial for the Eclipse cause it will get the turbo to spool up quickly, the reason every other gear in the eclipse is longer than the civic's gears is becaue it is geared to use the power from the fulley spooled turbo for as long as possible without loosing power. If a turbo is not able to fully spool in first (because its a real big one), then second gear would also need to be made slightly shorter to get the turbo spooled, then the preceeding gears should be long to take advantage of a fully spooled turbo. A fully spooled turbo gives you a wider range of usable power.

10-24-2003, 02:36 PM	#65
cashizslick Posts: n/a	aawww cmon az - you have been online for the past 30 mins and havent replied yet.

10-24-2003, 04:16 PM	#66
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	I have??? I just got back from physical training with my stupid squadron.

10-24-2003, 09:25 PM	#69
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	it did. success!! __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

10-24-2003, 09:34 PM	#70
AzCivic Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Az Age: 43 Posts: 3,804	what does a boost controller and a turbo timer have to do with gearing???

10-24-2003, 10:49 PM	#71
Shaved &/or Laid 4th Gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Nashville Age: 37 Posts: 853	DUDE ! LOOK ! i got to feed some kittens today. They were hungry and living in my garage so i gave them food. Then later they liked me. My fatehr Comands a soy farm ! its fifteen hechachres big. Why are we arguing about this ? __________________ Doody Ej1 Yse.

10-25-2003, 09:22 PM	#73
nonovurbizniz Registered User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ECUSA Age: 46 Posts: 2,693	^agree to what you want... he's right... Short gears make you accelerate faster with the same power. The ONLY reason for longer gears is higher top speed... less frequent shifting... and gas milage... I personally prefer long gears... The way I see it make you gears long so you can reach higher speeds in each gear and make up the time with more power. I drove an S4 and the gears were soooo short it was rediculous... almost undrivable imo... I wouldn't buy the car based on it's tranny... It makes it MUCH faster than it would otherwise be but it's not ANY fun to drive imo. the best way to shorten gears imo is to get more power. __________________ I am an A$$hole... take anything I say to heart at YOUR OWN RISK...

10-25-2003, 11:53 PM	#74
cashizslick Posts: n/a	umm, your a little late, but thanks for the input. Its surprising to hear how everybody thinks its bennificial for turbo cars to have shorter gearing - like i said, im done arguing this for now, but if this topic comes up again ill be there lol

10-26-2003, 11:45 AM	#75
IALuder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Des Moines IA Age: 38 Posts: 7,908	lol...ill be sure to add info that doesnt support anything or anyone 2. __________________ 93 Si H23vtec......soon to be 12lbs 95 Civic EX....automatic DD if you cant dazzle them with your brillance, baffle them with your bullshit.

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