presidential debates

[ChrisCantSkate]

anyone been watching these? kerry is showing his true side of a democrate it seems like. lots of promises of goverment interviening with medicare and other things i feel should be left to the private business(i call it the first steps to socialism, but depends on your point of veiw) but says he wont tax us yet cut our debt by 2.2 trillion. bush *seems* a bit more strait forward yet is dodging the big issues that could fry him. im beyond the point of pointing the finger at who's fault the war is and isnt. its time to deal with what we have gotten our selves into. kerry wants us to be part of the international courts... and more respected in the world. does that mean be a puppet for the UN? thats what he sounds like he wants to do. he(kerry) keeps ripping on bush for all these tax cuts and extra spendings around the "war" that he either voted in favor of or didnt show upto to even cast a vote. bush may not do the right thing all the time but damn, at least he's predictable and sticks to his convictions. there is no telling what kerry would do next in any situation.

[pdiggitydogg]

Ive watched all 3 so far.
The way Kerry'll fund his programs and cover the debt is by cutting the funding to defense.

I thought it was interesting that Bush has spent more than money than Washington->Reagan combined.

[ChrisCantSkate]

best line of all 3 debates was from cheney..

And Senator, frankly, you have a record in the Senate that's not very distinguished. You've missed 33 out of 36 meetings in the Judiciary Committee, almost 70 percent of the meetings of the Intelligence Committee.

You've missed a lot of key votes: on tax policy, on energy, on Medicare reform.

Your hometown newspaper has taken to calling you "Senator Gone." You've got one of the worst attendance records in the United States Senate.

Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session.

The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight

[Wren57]

My main beef with Kerry is his complete BS. Here is his plan;

1. Increase gov't spending
2. Decrease the deficit
3. Promised not to raise taxes

Where does he think the money is gonna come from? Anyone that has ever learned the value of a dollar has GOT to realize he is full of crap.

[pdiggitydogg]

No no no
I already explained that he is going to CUT defense spending to cover it
We do not need to spend $30billion on that

[CD5Passion]

I just don't trust Bush, i mean we are gonna be at war with the entire middle east soon, who knows when North Korea will decide to jump in. why did we attack Fallujah? wasn't the gerenal populace against everything osama bin laden stood for?
November we may be invading Iran...great lets attack another country even tho we haven't done shit in the first....

[ChrisCantSkate]

i fear democratic socialism.

[Wren57]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
No no no
I already explained that he is going to CUT defense spending to cover it
We do not need to spend $30billion on that

Right, and that $30billion dollar cut is gonna cover all the increased spending he plans on social programs AND reduce the deficit? Not to even mention that cutting security budget by $30bil is gonna make us more vunerable...

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
No no no
I already explained that he is going to CUT defense spending to cover it
We do not need to spend $30billion on that

i thought he said he wants to add more people to the military, so he's gonna add people then cut spending?

[pdiggitydogg]

Its just my best guess

[Wren57]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
Its just my best guess

exactly... NOBODY knows where Kerry actually stands on anything, so they just vote on what they THINK he stands for... pathetic if you ask me... amazing how a presidential candidate can get this far without having one solid stand on any issue... *sigh*

[pdiggitydogg]

"Well I respect your opinion, but Im going to have to disagree"
He did say he wasnt going to raise taxes

[AzCivic]

kerry looks weird, so there.

[pdiggitydogg]

he does
but his eyes arent too close together

[Wren57]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
"Well I respect your opinion, but Im going to have to disagree"
He did say he wasnt going to raise taxes

He has said a lot of things; truth is, he voted to raise taxes IIRC 92 times. He said he wouldn't raise taxes on those that makes under 200k/year. That means my parents, small business owners, WILL have increased taxes. This means they won't hire as many people and can't expand their business as fast as they have the past four years... see where I'm going with this?

Also, if he doesn't raise taxes, and only cuts 30bil from defense, how is he going to lower the deficit AND increase social programs by 200+ billion... his positions sound GREAT on paper, but money is limited and doesn't just show up out of nowhere.

If Kerry would just admit that he was going to raise taxes, I might like him a little better for at least being honest. Last night was ridiculous. He was asked point blank if he supported abortion. His reply; "I'm catholic, and I have beliefs, but I don't want to infringe my beliefs on others through legislation." ... so, does that mean you support abortion or oppose it? He can't answer a direct question with a direct answer.

As for being funny looking, I'm still waiting for his face to simply slide off his skull...

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by highlander

As for being funny looking, I'm still waiting for his face to simply slide off his skull...

aaaahahahahhaha!!

Also Bush seems more like a normal person, its funny to watch him when Kerry says something to piss him off.

[pdiggitydogg]

The reason why he gave that long-winded explanation on abortion, is because its not a question that can be answered directly. You have to throw in real world variables that bush never mentions (or anyone ever thinks of).
His reasoning was based on those on medicare. If they do not have the funds to pay for abortion, through personal payment or insurance, then medicare SHOULD cover it - as long as its a valid reason (not, knocked up because she messed up)

If votes come down to money then dont vote at all. There are much larger reasons to do it. The people who have money, dont necessarily need more...but those at the bottom and the middle could always use a boost. Thats reality.

Its clear that we have a difference of political beliefs... I hope this doesnt get ugly over somthing stupid.

[Wren57]

Nah, this won't get ugly. I pose a question to you, as you seem to side with Kerry on most of the issues;

You state that medicare should cover abortion for a "valid reason". Please define "valid reason". How are you going to enforce or determine if the reason is "valid"? Are you going to write a huge bill to state what is valid and what isn't, or leave it to the discretion of the doctors? If you leave it to their discretion, there will be turmoil; if you try to draw the line as to what is a "valid reason" and what isn't, there will be HUGE controversy. Even then, someone could artificially create a "valid reason"... see where I'm going with this? It simply is NOT enforceable; you either outlaw abortion/PBA, or allow it. There simply is no other alternative.

Personally, I think abortion should be legal for the simple fact that if abortion isn't legalized and controlled in a clean and safe environment, people will practice it anyway with much more severe dangers and consequences (see coat hanger).




Bottom line is this; Kerry can NOT keep these three promises;
1. Increase spending on social programs
2. Decrease deficit
3. Maintain low taxes

Kerry is a snake oil salesman... and a very good one at that...

[pdiggitydogg]

Yes it should be legal, most definately. But the point is still whether it would be covered by medicare or not. Thats the issue that everyone has a problem with.

"Valid" would be rape or health of either mother or fetus. Of course that would mean instant dna testing for those that claim rape - of the fetus and whoever she claims to the man responsible. It doesnt have to be a huge drawn out thing.

Im not saying I LIKE kerry...I just hate bush.

[GT40FIED]

As I wrote awhile back...your position on abortion is wrong. It doesn't matter what that position is, it's wrong. The only position that matters is that of a pregnant woman and what she decides to do with her body. Yet a bunch of sweaty old men who tend to look like pedophiles (the house, senate, and supreme court) feel like they have the right to legislate that. I'm all for abortion in every scenario with the exception of using it as a form of birth control.

As for the debates...it's all rhetoric. I gaurantee neither candidate will keep more than 25% of their promises if elected. That's how politicians work. To me...it's simple. I don't like Kerry...but I can't stand Bush. The man does not, in my opinion, display the sort of intelligence that I would like to see in a president. He has also constantly screwed us and lied to us...even if the "lies" turn out to be mistakes, they're still mistakes that could've been avoided, mistakes made by people he appointed, and mistakes he listened to. I defy one middle class individual to point out one significant thing Bush has done to make their lives better. And no, a few hundred bucks in one tax return is not significant because there were so many loopholes that people who needed it didn't get refund bonuses. For a simplified version of all of this...just check my sig.

[AzCivic]

whats the middle class supposed to get, a complete tax refund?

[GT40FIED]

I'm not talking solely about money. I'm talking about life in general. It's not just middle class either...anyone who isn't part of the "upper crust" got shafted.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
As I wrote awhile back...your position on abortion is wrong. It doesn't matter what that position is, it's wrong. The only position that matters is that of a pregnant woman and what she decides to do with her body. Yet a bunch of sweaty old men who tend to look like pedophiles (the house, senate, and supreme court) feel like they have the right to legislate that. I'm all for abortion in every scenario with the exception of using it as a form of birth control.

As for the debates...it's all rhetoric. I gaurantee neither candidate will keep more than 25% of their promises if elected. That's how politicians work. To me...it's simple. I don't like Kerry...but I can't stand Bush. The man does not, in my opinion, display the sort of intelligence that I would like to see in a president. He has also constantly screwed us and lied to us...even if the "lies" turn out to be mistakes, they're still mistakes that could've been avoided, mistakes made by people he appointed, and mistakes he listened to. I defy one middle class individual to point out one significant thing Bush has done to make their lives better. And no, a few hundred bucks in one tax return is not significant because there were so many loopholes that people who needed it didn't get refund bonuses. For a simplified version of all of this...just check my sig.

and then you'll get the people say that everyone makes mistakes......last time I checked when most people make mistakes it doesn't cost them hundreds of lives. IMO a president doesn't have the room to make mistakes and the reason is clear and simple as that. Bush has made too many for me to even look at him without sneering. and when it comes to abortion I'm all for it, I'd rather that than end up spending my tax dollars to help support a single mother of 4. Rather have some road repaved than that haha

[GT40FIED]

Well...no president is mistake free. Kennedy had the Bay Of Pigs. Nixon had Watergate. Reagan had...well...he was basically asleep the whole time. King George The First pulled out of Kuwait/Iraq WAY too soon. You just have to put it all in perspective. Bush messed up, sent over 1,000 people to their deaths who trusted him and their commanders, and never once admitted he screwed up. He's just passed the buck onto others.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
I'm not talking solely about money. I'm talking about life in general. It's not just middle class either...anyone who isn't part of the "upper crust" got shafted.

what are you talking about? was life better under clinton? mine wasnt.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
what are you talking about? was life better under clinton? mine wasnt.

but clinton's mistake didnt' cost lives

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
what are you talking about? was life better under clinton? mine wasnt.

Mine was. I was making more money, working more hours, paying less for a lot of things, and didn't have a bunch of friends over in countries that half of the U.S. can't pronounce. Clinton wasn't by any means the best president ever, but he was good enough and, as Darin pointed out, the shit he lied about didn't get anyone killed.

[CD5Passion]

and people fail to reconize that when I say "damn I hate bush, we should get clinton back". it's always "but he lied!"
Bush destroyed everything clinton fixed

[Kyle]

Originally posted by Shardsofxapril

Bush destroyed everything clinton fixed

....

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by Kyle
....

I'm just trying to light some fires

[Kyle]

I'll have to say that I might actually think about voting for kerry if he would talk about all his amazing plans that will save the world...
it just makes me mad listening to him talking about how he will do everything better than bush did/ is doing but he never says exactly what he's gonna do. I think it's going to be his downfall.

[ChrisCantSkate]

^ exactly you have no idea what kerrys going to do. if he coiuld convince me he wasnt full of shit i would think about voting for him

[GT40FIED]

Well...by that same token, how do you know Bush will deliver on any of his promises. Four years ago did any of us think that during the next election year we'd be neck deep in an unprovoked war and that the economy would be in the shitter with a truely immense deficit looming over us? Both Kerry and Bush are promising the same things every candidate has always promised and all future candidates will promise...but none of them ever get done. Bush could be (and from past experience, probably is) sitting there and lying straight-faced to all of us. I just look at it in the way that, even though I don't much like Kerry, he certainly couldn't skullfuck us any worse than Bush already has. In my opinion Bush doesn't deserve a 2nd chance. It's just a shame this country hasn't developed a successful third party system yet.

[CD5Passion]

and that would be because our nation is still half yanks and half confederates.
unfortunatly for us a good amount of the population thinks we can run the world and will back Bush through his shithead escapades, because "we have to get Osama back for what he did"
and by Osama I mean the entire middle east, cause they all are scum apparently
just waiting for North Korea to jump in and kick our asses cause the majority of our military is on the other hemisphere

[GT40FIED]

I fear that Osama might suffer from what I like to call "McVey sydrome". Our country gets so wrapped up in handing out guilt and innocense that we focus so much on a grain of sand we lose sight of the beach. I'm not saying anyone is guilty or otherwise. But we've covered up shit like this in the past. When a German disco was bombed killing 2 servicemen in the 80's we blamed Lybia even though we had solid intelligence that pointed to the involvement of the Syrian government. Why not go after Syria? Because we felt they were to valueable to the middle east peace process that never seems to produce any lasting peace. This is what I fear now. That we know exactly who did it but that we (and by "we" I mean by a group of people who I would dispatch without a second thought) feel that it's necessary to hide the correct information because our country may have an interest in them. I mean...think of how many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. Why haven't we bombed Saudi Arabia yet? Oh that's right...they have too much money tied up in our economy. If you ever want to send a package to Saudi Arabi, by the way, don't bother trying to use UPS or Fedex. That new company DHL is owned by a Saudi prince so that's your only choice. Happy war, everyone.

[ebpda9]

seriously guys all you do is bitch about the economy and war. economy has it's cycles, it's higs and lows and those do not happen overnight. it might take years to get from one cycle to the other(from high to low). again you are bitching about the rich that get all the tax cuts and benefits. guess what ? chances are you are working for a "rich bastard". When he is "happy" he gives you work, he puts more money into r&d etc. also when he is happy he is able to afford his new mansion or whatever giving jobs to the construction guys.

one thing i do not agree with is the shipment of jobs out of the country but that might be because you always want cheaper priced stuff and services. Maybe someone should do something about this issue too. Fuck all those indians get the IT the computer jobs, engineering jobs while there are thousands and thousands of american students just as capable coming out of the school now.

[ChrisCantSkate]

well its election year, and for some of us its our first chance to vote. so its kinda nice to know that some of the youth who are voting are actually looking into issues and trying to figure out who they want as president and not just picking the moron or the guy who looks like a tree.

[ebpda9]

hmm, don't all presidents look like that ?

[GT40FIED]

Well Stefan, the main reason people center on the war and economy is because no one is talking about much else. Usually you'd hear a bunch of shit about Medicare, prescription drugs for seniors, etc. This time around so far they've touched on that stuff a little, but mostly it's war and economy. And your theory about happy boss = more work + more R&D doesn't work for me. My company is making money hand over fist and still cutting people's hours. I'm positive that if they could they would outsource our jobs to Mexico...but it's customer service and not the phone kind. It's now officially ok to be greedy and rich without caring about those who don't have nearly as much as you. But I completely agree with the jobs overseas thing. I sent a tech support question the other day for my computer and got it back in all kinds of broken english. I was pissed, needless to say.

[Kyle]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
It's now officially ok to be greedy and rich without caring about those who don't have nearly as much as you.

It always has been and it will continue to be as long as this world exists.
Just because someone didn't work as hard as you doesn't mean you should give them shit.