I don't believe in God, i dont' believe in religion

[4jacks]

Shes a christian... what a silly question

HG ... did you also know they found Noah's arc ???

Sparticus, you sound very confused, I would spend some time delving into it if I were you, You kinda admit that there is a God, least you say You think there is one. So don't you wanna find him, say hey what's up... thanks for the life and stuff.

Once you come to the Conclusion that there is a God, you really do want to seek him out, cause if he has expectations of you, it would really be nice to know in advance

[KwikR6]

Originally posted by TheBaconKing


Yeah well i think most people on this board hated that movie ;P

Who cares

Back to the battle....I am enjoying reading everyone's opinions. Weather they coincide with mine or not, I still have to respect them although I may not agree with them. I'm not going to sit here and say "oh give god a chance" or anything like that, because I don't think religion should be pushed on anyone. I think you need to find it yourself and find god yourself to truely understand and respect him.

HG ... did you also know they found Noah's arc ???

No that was in the National Inquirer, Bat boy also saved the president in that issue.

After taking Science, everything makes perfect since, there is no god. sorry to those who believe. WE have evolved from monkeys, there is no way you can deny that, there was no Adam and Eve with the evil snake. God is watching down on us? where is he located again? the stratosphere or the troposphere? and hell is where again? right under the natural gas and oil reserves? ok i get it now.....and does your fair forgiving god only like humans? or do insects and plants go to heaven too? they are a breathing species just like all of us.

Religion is to keep the world safe, like someone was saying before....what better way to make people stop commiting crimes then saying they are going to hell?

I am actually amazed by the diversity of opinions we have on here, its really nice to see other peoples points of view. I never thought that everyones beliefs were so different-its kinda cool. But this is a very very dificult topic to discuss, because there will never be any answer.

Question: If you lived your life waiting for the "After-Life" and when you die there is none....then have you really lived your life??

[4jacks]

Originally posted by PoleMan14
HG ... did you also know they found Noah's arc ???

No that was in the National Inquirer, Bat boy also saved the president in that issue.

the quote button is on the bottom of everyone's post

No that Was on TLC I love that Channel...

it was a while ago... but they DID find a big boat really high on a mountian over in the middle east somewhere... so that mountain must be Mt. Olive.

Originally posted by 4jacks

No that Was on TLC I love that Channel...

it was a while ago... but they DID find a big boat really high on a mountian over in the middle east somewhere... so that mountain must be Mt. Olive.

4jacks is right - that was found quite a few years ago. Actually, almost every religious / cultural tradition tradition from that region references a story about a great flood and only a few animals and people surviving. There's some scientific legitimacy to widespread flooding during that time, too, from dirt and rock samples and stuff.

i want to give props to 4jacks for bringing up so many good points. a lot of which, were responses i was thinking also. there's a lot of lost people on this board, and there's not much else to say to people who don't believe. people think there's no God, i don't understand how that is, if everything will always lead back to Him. we come from monkeys? then how come there are still monkeys around today?? to all my fellow brothers in Christ, all we can do is pray. there's no point to argue with people who will just not choose to see the Truth. we did our job, which is to plant the seed, so to say, and now there's nothing left to do but pray. we did our job as Christians to spread the Gospel, now the rest is left to God.

Originally posted by bootstrap
Now i know most of you believe in some sort of God, go to church, you know follow the motions. But if you actually took time to think about it, there is no way that there is a "God" as we know it (not saying something didn't create matter, but its at least not what we think it is i.e. some being with human characteristics). I'm sorry, you can present your arguments and i will refute them all clearly and concisely, i always find it interesting to what people have to say about this subject since its very controversial and technically there is no right or wrong (but some things just make a hell of alot more sense than others).

Its called "brainwashing" folk.

Because there is a word called "perfect" there obviously has to be a meaning for it. Perfect meaning having no flaws, no sin, no evil inside that "perfect" somthing or "someone". Everyone strives to be perfect. Why do you make yourself better by taking care of yourselves, getting rid of pride, or racist thoughts, why do people have eating disorders, or have low self esteem. Why do we do such things to ourselves??? Because we want to be PERFECT! We all want to get rid of our flaws and become perfect, we all want everyone to like us, to accept us, in a sense to love us. So we have this view of perfection there has to be a perfect being for us to observe and measure ourselves to that person. How do we know what perfection is without a perfect being existing? how do we know how to be perfect wihtout there being a God who we can measure oursevles to? God is perfect. Because we want to be perfect and we need a person to measure our selves in the level of perfection, God does exist.

In the beginning, how did we come to being? If you believe in the big bang, then you have to believe that before that big bang there was nothing. nothing existed, thats what evoultionist believe. now if the big bang ever did exist, then there had to be a prime mover of that explosion. Even if you say " well..some mocules gathered together and caused that explosion, it wasn't God!!" Then you have to ask yourselves..where did those couple molecuse come from? Who made it? did it just pop from nowhere and then make the explosion happen? No, the answer is that there was and is a prime mover who caused that explosion and that has to be God.

What i'm trying to say is, we can argue all we want, but we are not going to get anywhere. If you really want to talk about God, then im me or email me a choverine@Hotmail.com then we can talk more in depth without the hinderance of a forum. drop me a line bootstrap, we'll talk.

Some of my replies may have been uncalled for, i.e. name calling etc. PLease ignore these remarks and focus on the point i am trying to make. Thankyou.

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
plus, let's just say that you're right. there's no God.. what am i gonna lose? nothing cause then by the same means, there's no heaven or hell. but let's think for a minute. what if i'm right and there IS a God. what do u have to lose? everything...

do you remember anything before you were born? wait, lemme guess.. you DON'T. Well what do you think its going to be like after you die hmmm? You don't exist anymore, just like you didn't exist before you were born.

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl


actually in a way it has already been proven. everything that the Bible has claimed to happen in the past, has been scientifically proven. the cities mentioned, all sorts of stuff has been found to prove the Bible correct. not too long ago, a bunch of scrolls were even found of the Bible that were dated back to that time.

haha whoaaaaa that REALLY proves EVERYTHING now. OF COURSE CITIES IN THE BIBLE REALLY EXISTED. nobody is saying the bible is 100% made up. It is probaly based extremely loosly on things that actually happened. Its just like when you make a movie based on a true story, sure its from an event that really happened, but the movie is completely ficticous in its content.

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl


. i mean the Bible even talks about humans walking with dinosaurs...

haha, if you know anything about anything, you know people did NOT walk with "dinosaurs". Of course prehistoric creatures still do exist, but not "dinosaurs" as everybody thinks (i.e. the T-rex and all those big things)

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX
. Too many people claiming to be religious are the most hypocritical people I've met.

I concur

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
what do u have to lose to try to believe in God? and to answer your question, if someone could prove to me that God didn't exist, or give me something even remotely questionable, then i probably would also doubt and might believe there was no God

haha, thats like saying your favorite color is blue, but if somebody gives you evidence that its not your favorite color, then you'll change your mind. I don't believe in god, but i would imagine that if you did, you would not be saying that. Your also using the "what do i have to lose" argument, which means you only believe in him 'just in case' he exists. haha

Originally posted by TheBaconKing
i could really care less about getting more people to, but as far as christians are concerned regarding what gives God the right to judge people, well, he's kinda God. There's my rant, and my first post.

yes you are giving god human characteristics again, which is a no-no. We have our own set of morals, like, killing is not a good thing for instince. However in other species of animals, killing is perfectly natural. Why is it that only humans answer to god and not any other species of animal, even those animals that have existed on this earth thousands of years before humans ever existed. And if this universe was created for humans, becasue only we answer to god, then why did he wait so damn long to put us here, why wait billions of years. That doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by Gator
My belief is that everyone is born with an instinct of knowing God.

Nobody is born with an "instinct of knowing god" . We are all born with instinct to survive. I dont know much about the area so i won't go on. The way humans were introduced to god was in an attempt to explain the unkown. The indians prayed so that it would rain and they're crops would grow. They believe god was making it rain. We now know that there are weather patterns, jet streams, updrafts and all that good stuff that makes moisture in the air and water droplets and precipitation. Over the centuries humans have gave god the credit for alot of things, yet we have found the science behind these things for quite a few. Of course we do not know everything, such as how big the universe is, how matter was created, and if we don't wipe out the human race, we might get those answers someday. But to take the easy way out and say that "god" did it, is inconcevaible.

Originally posted by Gator

To try to defend the existance of God is like trying to prove that the wind blows. We see the effects of the wind blowing, but cannot provide actual tangible evidence of the wind. In the same way, we see the effects of God and His works here on earth...but how do you prove His presence?

i'm sorry thats just stupid. If your going to make an analogy at least make a good one. You can see the wind blowing the leaves on the tree, as well as feel the wind against your hand. However, you can see an "act of god" such as a fireman saving somebody?(i don't know what an act of god is, but anyway), but you don't "feel" anything when that happens. if you do, you probably need to consult with a doctor.

Originally posted by Gator


I know of past historical events (wars, politics, etc) based on documentation passed down through the generations. I trust in this information as it has been regarded as a factual representation of prior events. I equally regard The Bible as God's documentation through others of His word and promsie for us.

haha, ignorance at its finest hour. If you think our interpretation of historical events is correct. There are always facts left out, di-information added in, and then when you pass that down from generation to generation, the facts and mis-information get scrambled up and by the time your hearing it, nobody knows the truth anymore. Believe that

Originally posted by juvenile
ok, one thing about your situation...just because your life isn't great doesn't mean there is no God. My life is really messed up too, yet I still believe in God! What did you expect him to do, flower you with everything you want? That's not the way God works, and you see, he's teaching you a lesson now, he's testing your faith, and you are giving up easily (not sure of your situation so no flamin intended)

Haha, i love it when people say this. When times are good, its because of god. When times are bad, its because of god. Your just thinking what you want to think bro. Lemme ask you something son, my friends mother died of cancer, must have been around 50, and i know for a fact she was a good woman, how is that testing her faith. You go and tell her family that.

Don't you see that its just a wall of comfort you put around yourselves. When you narrowly avoid and car accident, you think "oh , god helped me". But if you get an F in your math class, god is "punishing you" for something else you've done. Thats just rediculous, your just trying to find a reason for why things happen. The truth is, life is based on the laws of probability. When you drive, there is a certain probability that you will get into an accident. When you do get in an accident, you've lost your bet, meaning when you got into your car you bet you wouldn't crash, but you did. Thats all it is folk. Sorry.

Originally posted by toykilla


Who said the lord was a being with human characteristics?? In Moses, god was looked at as a burning bush. Maybe you should read more on the subject before you dont believe in something you know nothing about.

What i meant was, human characteristics in so much as thought processes. God interprets right from wrong. What other animal thinks like that except human beings? My point exactly

Originally posted by Gator




He isn't necessarily going to suddenly appear before you and tell you what you need to know. He's much more clever than that. He puts people in your life that He works through - even in places like this... and He doesn't do things in our time frame or the way we think it needs to be done. God has a very distinct purpose and way of doing things. What we think we may need or want may not be what's best for us. Pray for patience and God might stick you in a traffic jam every day for a month. You prayed for it, so work on it. You see what I mean?
.

haha, thats funny. Thats like reading your horoscope and it says "you will face many challenges today". Then you go and your manager is angry with you at work and your like, MRS. CLEO WAS RIGHT! she IS real!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Chief

The fact that there is evil on earth should not be considered proof there is no God - it is simply a glimpse of the other side of things. God loves us enough to not treat us like puppets on a string. He gives us our own unique minds, bodies and choices to do with as we choose. He loves us so much that He gives us until our very last breath to turn to Him. That's pretty awesome if you ask me.

IF god was so great, he would have tailor made our "free will", barring evil thoughts from our minds. i mean, he IS god, isn't he? OF course i've heard the argument about free will before, its just another excuse for "evil". For example, lets say your stranded in a forest, and some plane comes along, and rescues you, you say it was the work of the lord. But if it was the work of the lord, he would have sent the plane to that area, which means he would have head to control the plane throught the pilot, which would have meant he would have had to control the pilot, which negates free will. OR, you could think rationally and just say a plane happened to fly over.

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
. people think there's no God, i don't understand how that is, if everything will always lead back to Him. we come from monkeys? then how come there are still monkeys around today?? to all my fellow brothers in Christ, all we can do is pray. there's no point to argue with people who will just not choose to see the Truth. we did our job, which is to plant the seed, so to say, and now there's nothing left to do but pray. we did our job as Christians to spread the Gospel, now the rest is left to God.

haha, about the monkeys. If you knew anything about evolution, you would know that a species gets seperated into 2 groups. One of those groups may stay in the same habitat, whereas the other groups environment changes. Becasue of these changes, mutations in the birds may help or hinder they're ability to stay alive. Changes are adapted, and so after hundreds of years, the end result is a completely different species of animal. ITs a ****ing fact.

And to remark on how we shouldn't argue and to just let things go as they may. Thats the dumbest thing in the world. So just becuase alot of people believe in one thing makes it right? NO. Just because nobody cares about destroying our environment doesn't mean we're not destroying it and will eventually make in inhospitable to ourselves. I bet god really wants that!

To sum everything up, the term "god" was created to explain the unexplainable. However, after enough time, evenatully things have and will be explained that were previously attritubed to as gods work.

I'd like to ask you why you think there are so many different religions, and what makes you think you are practicing the right one. Some religions believe in one god, others believe in several. So is there one god or several gods? Even people who believe in god don't agree with each other. And even people who agree with the amount of gods dont agree on what gods message is. And even people who agree on the message don't all practice it.

To think that we are special, that "god" put us here is childish. THe probability for creating life is obviously very slim. Out of the trillions of galaxies in space, all of them containing trillions of stars, i think it is reasonable to believe that our planet is an exeption, or at least a rare execption, in which life exists. Events, life, and death, are all based on probability, not acts of god. People use god as a comfort sheild.

To our knowledge, matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Which means we cannot even begin to fathom with what forces we are dealing with, becuase matter has been around for an amount of time we cannot begiin to imagine. For us, a species of animal on a lonely planet, to somehow marvel upon the answer to how the universe, or matter was created, is laughable if you actually take the time to think about it.

Man, I never thought I'd reference one of my least favourite people in the world... but:

"Many dittos!"

On a second reading, scratch that. I would have agreed with bootstrap's arguments when I was 15. I think I have a better understanding now.

i'm sorry that you feel the way that you do. but i don't think you should be laughing at what we're saying. are we laughing at you?? no. unfortunately, you're choosing to believe all the things you say. and i could just as easily come back and argue all the things you brought up. trust me, they're all the same weak points i've heard over and over. but nothing will come of it. there are some people who will just not ever turn their lives to Christ, and for those people my heart aches. no, i don't believe in God JUST IN CASE he exists. i KNOW He exists. i DO feel Him work in my life. you say you hate people, i love people, no matter if i agree with them or not. i'm happy and blessed and i look forward to going to be with my God when i die. laugh all you want, cause blessed are the cursed

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
i could just as easily come back and argue all the things you brought up.

so why don't you then?

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl

no, i don't believe in God JUST IN CASE he exists. i KNOW He exists.

yes but you still haven't told me HOW you know.


You all want me to believe in God, or at least explain why you believe in God, yet you haven't presented me with one single solid argument. You just want this thread to die because you all have been brainwashed into believing in something, and since you can't come up with a single argument as to why you feel that way, you feel stupid and throw up your arms and cry out "I JUST BELIEVE!!!!".

[Racing Rice]

My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any.. Would you like me to show you a picture of him that I took with my digital camera? I will as soon as you show me your digital picture of the big bang theory. Im glad that you are so steadfast in something that you believe in, no one here is trying to make you do anything. Thats up to you.

Have you ever talked in tonques before? I have.. and I know for a fact that it wasnt something that they learned in school.. How do you explain that? Wait let me quess its someone just standing up and making funny noises right. You can believe that if you want.

[ChrisCantSkate]

ok everyone this it looking like its gonna get ugly, religion or lack of is someones belives, your not going to change them. if another mod thinks that this isnt going to snowball out of control, repoen it, but im starting to see it turn bad. everyone isnt going to change the beliefs they grew up on over this argument on the internet. people belive what they think is true, so if you think theres a god(which i do) then your gonna see how he is in your life, if you dont, then your going to find a scientific explenation for everything. you guys have proved this in 4 pages of posting.

[Addict]

Wow. This is ALOT of reading. Ever think this post will end?

Originally posted by Racing Rice
My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any..

Yep. It goes both ways. This will be an endless and aimless thread.

Anyhow my .02,
I personally don't think there is a a God nor do I follow any certain religions. I won't present any points to this because as I said early this is a pointless thread. I also never try to convince people to follow my ideals. To each his/her own.

Originally posted by bootstrap


so why don't you then?

because like my post ALREADY said "nothing will come of it"... i don't see a point in arguing away about something you'll just continue to bash. how do i know there is a God? simple: He is in everything i do, see and feel. He is the only explanation for everything in this world. it seems to me as though you're just looking for an argument by saying that we all want u to believe in God but don't give u a good argument. i will not give u that argument. i have not been brainwashed. i've seen God work so many things in life. He's gotten me through all the rough times i've had. it's because of Him that i'm still alive and that i'm so happy now.

[KwikR6]

Originally posted by Civic_Addict
I also never try to convince people to follow my ideals. To each his/her own.

Sooo true........lets leave it at that.

Originally posted by bootstrap

haha whoaaaaa that REALLY proves EVERYTHING now. OF COURSE CITIES IN THE BIBLE REALLY EXISTED. nobody is saying the bible is 100% made up. It is probaly based extremely loosly on things that actually happened. Its just like when you make a movie based on a true story, sure its from an event that really happened, but the movie is completely ficticous in its content.

So you are saying that you do believe that there is some factual content in the bible, but are questioning 100% accuracy? Since the entire concept of the bible is focused on God, then I guess that's the accurate part.

We have our own set of morals, like, killing is not a good thing for instince. However in other species of animals, killing is perfectly natural. Why is it that only humans answer to god and not any other species of animal, even those animals that have existed on this earth thousands of years before humans ever existed. And if this universe was created for humans, becasue only we answer to god, then why did he wait so damn long to put us here, why wait billions of years. That doesn't make sense to me.

Because as the Bible states, man was made in the image of God. Part of what is meant by the term "in the image of God" can be found in chapters immediately following its first usage (Genesis 1) in the Bible. Both Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. Such a personal relationship is not described, nor seen, for any other animal species. It is the presence of a spirit that was instilled into humans that separates us from the animals. There are three kinds of life that God has created in this universe:[list=1][*]Body only - Lower life forms, including reptiles, amphibians, fish, and invertebrates[*]Body and soul - From the Hebrew nephesh, or soulish creatures, including birds and mammals[*]Body, soul and spirit - Humans[/list=1]

Nobody is born with an "instinct of knowing god" .

Prove it.

We are all born with instinct to survive.

Prove it.

I dont know much about the area so i won't go on.

Yeah, you've proven that

The way humans were introduced to god was in an attempt to explain the unkown.

And how is it that you are privy to this first hand knowledge. Were you around at this time and helped to formulate this big vague idea of God? Your arguments are far weaker based on nothing more than skepticism with nothing to back it up.

The indians prayed so that it would rain and they're crops would grow. They believe god was making it rain. We now know that there are weather patterns, jet streams, updrafts and all that good stuff that makes moisture in the air and water droplets and precipitation.

Wow, and the weather patterns have just mysteriously formed since the onset of time through the intervention of no greater being? Amazing...

Over the centuries humans have gave god the credit for alot of things, yet we have found the science behind these things for quite a few. Of course we do not know everything, such as how big the universe is, how matter was created, and if we don't wipe out the human race, we might get those answers someday. But to take the easy way out and say that "god" did it, is inconcevaible.

And just how does giving credit to God somehow become more inconceivable than speculating on a big bang theory followed by a lot of shrugs and "I don't know's"? If you ask me, it's a far greater stretch to say that there was a big crash in the universe and somehow we evolved from Bubbles the Chimp.

You can see the wind blowing the leaves on the tree, as well as feel the wind against your hand.

Yes, you can see the wind blowing the leaves - but the movement of leaves is not proof of wind. That's proof that the leaves are moveable matter. Feeling the wind against your hand isn't proof of the wind. It's proof that the nerve endings in your hand are sending impulses to your brain. If you're going to knock an analogy, at least do it with a a better argument.

However, you can see an "act of god" such as a fireman saving somebody?(i don't know what an act of god is, but anyway), but you don't "feel" anything when that happens. if you do, you probably need to consult with a doctor.

Have you ever felt the emotion of love?
God is love.
I would say that is a feeling...

haha, ignorance at its finest hour. If you think our interpretation of historical events is correct. There are always facts left out, di-information added in, and then when you pass that down from generation to generation, the facts and mis-information get scrambled up and by the time your hearing it, nobody knows the truth anymore. Believe that

Do you believe slavery existed? How do you know?
Was Lincoln a U.S. president? How do you know?
Did Thomas Edison invent the light bulb? How do you know?

Haha, i love it when people say this. When times are good, its because of god. When times are bad, its because of god. Your just thinking what you want to think bro. Lemme ask you something son, my friends mother died of cancer, must have been around 50, and i know for a fact she was a good woman, how is that testing her faith. You go and tell her family that.

Seems like you are the one with the selective thinking... "well, parts of the bible are based loosely on this and loosely on that but it can't all be accurate... some things must have been screwed up in the translations by man..."

Don't you see that its just a wall of comfort you put around yourselves. When you narrowly avoid and car accident, you think "oh , god helped me". But if you get an F in your math class, god is "punishing you" for something else you've done. Thats just rediculous, your just trying to find a reason for why things happen.

I don't know who you are speaking for, but do not speak for me. If I were to get an F in math, then it is because I didn't apply myself. If you get an F in spelling or debate, it's because you didn't apply yourself. Do not assume that you can make broad categorizations that apply to everyone. You do not know my faith and how I think. If you want to know PM me or chat with me and I'll tell you, but do not assume to know.

I'm out of time for now... but will continue to respond later.

Peace out.

[blind34_1]

Hmm...my take on religion...a complicated question that way to many people take emotionally (I wonder how many posts were removed from people getting upset from even the thought of there religion being debated)

First of all props to bootstrap for debating clearly and logically. I agree with your views more than others (not to insult others views though).

The Bible: the ultimate equalizer it seems. Can we prove it was written by who they say it was written by? Is there any way to prove that it wasn't a joke by a bunch of bearded men who discovered opium? The only way is to put faith into something that cannot ever be proven to be legit.
Somebody was saying that some things have come true in the bible. --> Open your newspaper and read the horoscopes. Now read the horoscopes for the next week. How many of them came true for you? Closely true? Somewhat? Dead on? Its relatively easy to predict things without giving specific details (In my opinion that is what the bible has done.)
Some predicted events are a little too specific. --> just a good guess? or was it carried out by religious leaders just wanting to spur faith in their religion by "proving" the bible knows what it is talking about? In the end it all comes down to how much you blindly believe in something/someone.

Religious Institutions: These I believe are a crock of crap. I'm sorry, but faith and/or salvation doesn't come from a church or pope or some "holy" bath water. This is all just to comfort the attendees mind. This brings me to my belief: that all religion originated in peoples heads to make them feel comfortable in an empty universe (empty as we know it). To give them purpose and a will to go on.

I'm tired now, and I don't want to make one single post too big, but here are some quotes to churn around in your mind:


To live alone one must be an animal or a god - says Aristotle. There is yet a third case: one must be both - a philosopher.
--Nietzsche

Which is it? Is man only God's mistake or God only man's mistake?
--Nietzsche


(and one more - nothing to do with religion, but its such an awesome quote...)

Are you geniune? or only an actor? A representative? or that itself which is represented? - Finally you are no more than an imitation of an actor....Second question of conscience.
--Nietzsche

[4jacks]

I thought this thread got locked...

Well good I get to add another .02

Bootstrap ?!?!? How come you didn't quote me... I feel dissapointed... yet complimented...

Here's the end of your debate... attempt to quote me if you dare...

The man Jesus did exist.... Proven by many other sources than the bible...
the man Jesus did preform miracles... proven by many other sources than the bible...
Jesus Claimed to be God, the son of god, and our only hope of salvation, Jesus preformed all these miracles in order to prove that to those around him.
We must either chose to believe that or disbelieve based on the records that we have.
Well we have many records stating he worked up crowds with miracles and magic acts...
We have a pretty acurate story of his life, and he seemed like a great guy, healing all those people, and feeding people, and blessing kids, never cursed anyone, never hurt anyone,
But he did get in trouble for preaching this new religion, where he was salvation and the son of God.
Then we have to look at ... well just how acurate is this bible... I mean is was written a long time ago, by many authors, but is the main source for information on Jesus.
The only real way we can do that is to evalute that is to look at the events and prophies (sp?) that the bilbe claimed to have happen and have predicted....
None of the events of the bible have been disproven , many included Noah's arc have been proven.
Now like take a look at the Prophesies of the bible...
They are incredible. . .
I wish I knew bible passages off the top of my head, but I don't... the two that come to mind are
Joesph's inturpetation of the Pharoh's dream in genisis.
and thier was a great one i just heard a little while ago at
www.tonyevans.org i would encourage all my fellow christians to check this site out, this guy is great, and right now he's doing a lot of Biblical prophesy .
the other one is the Prophet who gets called to a king to inturped a dream, about a monster, that gets swallowed by another monster, that gets swallowed by another monster. And he nailed that one on the head, but it didn't get proven till well after his life time, cause the dream was about the fall of that kingdom, I'm thinkin Babylon, and the fall of the next kingdom.

Anyway, Bootstrap, your problem is your not seeking knowledge for what its worth, with a sincere sense. Most of your Idea have come from your own head, and have no backing except for simple comprehension. When your drop the Idea that YOU are smart enough to figure the world out, and seek the answer sincerely, than the Answer that christ is lord, will always follow a search bases on fact and logic.

[ChrisCantSkate]

wow nice reply

AMEN 4JACKS AND AMEN, YOU GO BROTHA!

[blind34_1]

dont try to end the debate just yet...

thats right most of his ideas came from his head, but thats also where religion comes from. a lot of peoples heads - granted. He's not the only one that believes what he beleives, theres just not many of them posting here. The ideas aren't backed up with "facts" because we lack the resources/desire to find such, just like you had no verses earlier. I don't doubt that most of those events took place and that a man named Jesus existed.
I believe most things can be explained scientifically, if only to be dismissed as random events, calculated mathematically.

Oh and by the way, this thread should not be locked. Just because some people dont like people rippin on their religious beleifs doesn't mean that free speech should be discouraged on this site.

I say everything with the most respect for everyone posting here.

[ebpda9]

yeah i agree, but i think he got all hot over some replies other members had. sincerely i don't care too much about religion either, but from stories in the Bible, and watching TV (TLC, Discovery) and other sources i think most of the facts match.

About locking this thread: it was locked becuase some mebers could not accept that others have different oppinions.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by blind34_1

Oh and by the way, this thread should not be locked. Just because some people dont like people rippin on their religious beleifs doesn't mean that free speech should be discouraged on this site.

i dont think it was ever locked becuase of how someone felt, but that the debate started to get to a verbal argument and crap was about to hit the fan. its open now, and i doubt it will shut again, unless it gets bad.

Originally posted by 4jacks
When your drop the Idea that YOU are smart enough to figure the world out, and seek the answer sincerely, than the Answer that christ is lord, will always follow a search bases on fact and logic.

No one is smart enough to understand the world on their own - one must build on the discovery and understanding of others. That's the whole idea behind (a) philosophy and (b) science.

I doubt that when Bootstrap seeks out the answer, he will find that the answer for him is "christ is lord". I believe that that is the answer for you, 4jacks, but the fact remains that MOST people in the world who search find a different answer than you. Most people in the world are NOT Christian! Why? It's not because they're poor, lost, unfortunate souls who haven't been introduced to your brand of evangelism - it's because their culture and traditions (I think religion is cultural and traditional in nature) offer them a different book, a different creed, and a different "face" for god.

Are they wrong? I don't think so. Nor do I think you are wrong. There is a Truth - a solution to the nature of the world. Man tries to discover it though mathematics, though philosophy, through religions - when we do so (if we don't destroy ourselves and our world first) we will find that they're all different tools to understand the same thing.

A final rant (haha, who am I kidding?): One of my objections to organized religion is that it gives people an "easy answer". Follow this book and this person, and you're a good person and that's all you have to do in life. People who do that don't contribute to mankind's Understanding, although typically the top scholars and "wise men" of various religious traditions do become skilled and advancing knowledge of the world, but that's because they're great thinkers, not because they follow a book, or other men, word for word.

Greetings, to all my fellow men.

[blind34_1]

Wow...good job. I'm speechless.

There is only one answer in this world and you are blind if you dont see it. I'm a new christian and trust me I've been struggling with this most of my life. But if you really look for the answers with out a cloudy mind there is only one possible out come. That is that you find Chris, your Lord and saviour.

By the way its not cultural there are asian christians too!

[blind34_1]

nice pun on my username. Just happens to be the first song on Korn's first CD, is my favorite skateboard brand, and is my hacker handle. It is not to imply that I am blind to issues concerning religion, philosophy, politics, social policy, etc. in fact I'd like to think I'm pretty knowledgable on the subject.

anyway...the debate. continue.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Mushroom


No one is smart enough to understand the world on their own - one must build on the discovery and understanding of others. That's the whole idea behind (a) philosophy and (b) science.




A final rant (haha, who am I kidding?): One of my objections to organized religion is that it gives people an "easy answer". Follow this book and this person, and you're a good person and that's all you have to do in life. People who do that don't contribute to mankind's Understanding, although typically the top scholars and "wise men" of various religious traditions do become skilled and advancing knowledge of the world, but that's because they're great thinkers, not because they follow a book, or other men, word for word.

Greetings, to all my fellow men.

I disagree with the first part, science and math are alot different than Philosophy. Math is the only source of what i would consider true knowledge, It's our own system, everything is 100% proven, and we can explain, build, and destroy the world with it. Sceince uses a little of the same but adds a lot of "theories" some are pretty good "atomic theory" some are pretty hookie... "the world is flat theory" ... but if you look at history the most commonly accepted theories are always getting rejected... the atomic theorey was rejected then it was back... makes me wonder if it's gonna get rejected again. Philosophy is ALL theory ... . Honestly .. you might hear a lot of groovy stuff in that class... but it's a waste of time.


Organized Religion is not easy ... try it... it's rather difficult. That's why there are so many Denomitation splits and such forth.


Greetings ! =)

Just talk to him. Like a friend, or a father. Trust. Believe. And keep working at it. Thank Him, ask Him questions. Tell him how you feel. Every day. Most importantly - be sincere.. if you're mad at him.. tell him. He listens and He provides - always. [/b][/quote]

that was awesome very nicely put.

has anyone ever had ''god'' talk to u? (dont mean to keep this thread going)

if so what did he say?

[4jacks]

Originally posted by FLAT_LINER
Just talk to him. Like a friend, or a father. Trust. Believe. And keep working at it. Thank Him, ask Him questions. Tell him how you feel. Every day. Most importantly - be sincere.. if you're mad at him.. tell him. He listens and He provides - always.

that was awesome very nicely put.

has anyone ever had ''god'' talk to u? (dont mean to keep this thread going)

if so what did he say? [/b][/quote]

My sisters (i come from a semi-religious household) swear up and down that god talks to them. It's in thier everyday conversation, they don't eat a ham and cheese sandwich on a certain monday cause God told em to buy Turkey. Basicly though, god moves you to do things through the Holy spirit. You just get a feeling that you should open the left door and not the right, I've only had this with really big issues in my Life, like whether to ask my wife to marry me, or whether to buy a house. I'm not at the Ham and Cheese state yet... I guess that comes with time.

ive had god talks with people but very few people have had god talks with me ifyou know what i'm saying

I'm going to add on to what mushroom and blind have said. I didn't want to reply to alot of the things said below only because they were just so ****ing dumb. I think you will all agree that when people come up with insanely rediculous arguements, it is difficult to return that arguement with something that doesn't sound equally as rediculous. Anyway, i tried. I'd also like somebody to explain to me why they think they're religion is the correct one. It is strange that people cannot see the simple logic behind this . Most if not all people who practice a certain religion are positive that they are worshipping the correct god or gods. Yet, if this is so, then the other people must be wrong.. or if they are right, then you are wrong. The answer is people just try to find an answers. Your all wrong. How do you not see that? The simple fact that there are so many different religions with different ideals of the universe, of god (or gods), of life(and/or death), that alone should prove my point.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Racing Rice
My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any..
[/quote]

Thats just plain silly. As i have said before and continue to say, as our knowledge of the universe advances there will be more and more evidence against the idea that a god exists. You can't expect me to give you solid evidence on something you people imagined from your heads. Its like trying to prove that ghosts don't exist. Everybody (or at least anybody with half a brain) knows they don't exist, yet you can't 100% disprove it, and at the same time you can't 100% prove it (or mabye you can, i'm no scientist). However, if you go by factual evidence and scientific data, there is no way that ghosts can exist. The same is true with proving or disproving god.

Originally posted by Racing Rice

Would you like me to show you a picture of him that I took with my digital camera? I will as soon as you show me your digital picture of the big bang theory.

Ummm scientists don't just "make up" theories. They have to have sufficient data supporting it first. I don't have an actual photo of the big bang, but there is alot of evidence saying that it did happen.

Originally posted by Gator


So you are saying that you do believe that there is some factual content in the bible, but are questioning 100% accuracy? Since the entire concept of the bible is focused on God, then I guess that's the accurate part.

thats not an argument


i know humans aren't born with an instinct of knowing god because i sure wasn't. They only "learn" about "god" becuase from the time they are born they are exposed to religion. Whether it be the media, friends, family or church, it is ingrained into their brain from a very early age.

Humans have an instinct to survive, how do you not know this, do you go to school? What do you think adrenaline is for, why do you think babies have the reflex to swim when put in water, even though they are too young to know that they can drown and die. What do you think the "fight or flight" response is. Mabye your god should help guide you into learning about shit you should know

Originally posted by Gator


And how is it that you are privy to this first hand knowledge. Were you around at this time and helped to formulate this big vague idea of God? Your arguments are far weaker based on nothing more than skepticism with nothing to back it up.

I didn't formulate a vague idea of god, i applied knowledge i have learned over the course of 20 years to formulate a hypothesis on WHY people think there is a god.

Originally posted by Gator

Wow, and the weather patterns have just mysteriously formed since the onset of time through the intervention of no greater being? Amazing...

Yes well if you go to school you would probably know how the earth was created, the basic elements it contained. You would probably know how solids, liquids and gasses interact with each other. Weather patterns were created through processes like convection, conduction, and all that other good stuff you should know about.

Originally posted by Gator


And just how does giving credit to God somehow become more inconceivable than speculating on a big bang theory followed by a lot of shrugs and "I don't know's"? If you ask me, it's a far greater stretch to say that there was a big crash in the universe and somehow we evolved from Bubbles the Chimp.

Giving credit to God is obviously much more simplier, i'm not disagreeing with you on that. IF we lived hundreds of years ago, without all of the scientific knowledge we have now, i may have agreed with you. But knowing what we know now, it is inconceivable to me.

As far as evolution goes, it is proven that it happens. I don't see how you are trying to debate this. Again, do you go to school?

Originally posted by Gator

Yes, you can see the wind blowing the leaves - but the movement of leaves is not proof of wind. That's proof that the leaves are moveable matter. Feeling the wind against your hand isn't proof of the wind. It's proof that the nerve endings in your hand are sending impulses to your brain. If you're going to knock an analogy, at least do it with a a better argument.

everybody knows that air exists, and the movement of air exists, and that when air is circulating, yes it can move leaves if it wants. And we also know that when air is circulating it can make the "nerve endings in your hand send impulses to your brain". What are you arguing?

Originally posted by Gator



Have you ever felt the emotion of love?
God is love.
I would say that is a feeling...

I don't believe in love. Love is just a made up word. You can say you love somebody, yet you can love somebody else and feel completely different about them. Or you could love somebody, then love somebody else and love them more. So what is the second kind of love, super love or something? I'm not saying humans can't posses strong emotions towards people or things, i'm just saying that to generalize specific feelings into the word "love" is a shame. But i'm not here to discuss whether love exists or not, so lets move on.

Originally posted by Gator

Do you believe slavery existed? How do you know?
Was Lincoln a U.S. president? How do you know?
Did Thomas Edison invent the light bulb? How do you know?

This is too dumb to argue against. But i'll try. I guess i know becuase people tell me so? and oh yeah, and that it can be proven 100%.

Originally posted by Gator


Seems like you are the one with the selective thinking... "well, parts of the bible are based loosely on this and loosely on that but it can't all be accurate... some things must have been screwed up in the translations by man..."

Even learned people who believe in god don't believe alot of things in the bible. They say that alot of it is symbolism. For example, when jesus made some breadbasket that never was empty, they say that what he really did was break up the bread so everybody got a piece. I don't remember much about it, but you get the idea.

Originally posted by 4jacks


Bootstrap ?!?!? How come you didn't quote me... I feel dissapointed... yet complimented...

i don't know what you said, but i probably didn't quote you either becuase you a) weren't proving a point or b) your a dumbass



Here's the end of your debate... attempt to quote me if you dare...

Originally posted by 4jacks

The man Jesus did exist.... Proven by many other sources than the bible...

i'm not saying a man named jesus did not exist, i'm just saying he wasn't the son of god

Originally posted by 4jacks

the man Jesus did preform miracles... proven by many other sources than the bible...

IF you gave me the sources then mabye you'd be on your way in trying to prove your point...? just a suggestion

Originally posted by 4jacks


We must either chose to believe that or disbelieve based on the records that we have.
Well we have many records stating he worked up crowds with miracles and magic acts...

people do that today, i.e. magicians and con-artists. So your saying that magic isn't really just illusians, you mean people can really levetate? Or you mean when people today are "healed" instantly that it really happens, its not staged?

[4jacks]

Originally posted by bootstrap


Ummm scientists don't just "make up" theories. They have to have sufficient data supporting it first. I don't have an actual photo of the big bang, but there is alot of evidence saying that it did happen.


I don't believe in love. Love is just a made up word. You can say you love somebody, yet you can love somebody else and feel completely different about them. Or you could love somebody, then love somebody else and love them more. So what is the second kind of love, super love or something? I'm not saying humans can't posses strong emotions towards people or things, i'm just saying that to generalize specific feelings into the word "love" is a shame. But i'm not here to discuss whether love exists or not, so lets move on.



i don't know what you said, but i probably didn't quote you either becuase you a) weren't proving a point or b) your a dumbass

Ok first of all Scientist do make up theories, that is why they are called theories, this is learned in 7th or 8th grade... please attend class next time. This is why we do not have theories, in math class. Scientist make an educated guess, and call it a theory. History has proven 80% of this to be wrong.

Second, If you don't believe in Love than you disagree with the rest of the world and you're obviously wrong. There's no questioning this or debating this... YOUR WRONG. the only thing this leads to questioning, is your stability as a person...
**COUGH** prozac **COUGH**


Third I don't appreciate you calling me a dumbass. You started this thread, so either keep up with it, or just shut up. You read the thing once a month posting some stupid long post, and expect us to read the whole thing. You said... I'll debate the subject... blah blah blah.. and now you've resorted to name-calling... Personally I think that's just pathetic. So if your gonna be a little baby, then just shut up, and let those of us who can act like grown ups, debate the subject, with out your swanderings.

And finally .....
You can't deny the existence of good and Evil.... it's in our conscience, it's evident in society... it's all around us, we feel bad when we do something evil, and we feel good when we do something helpful to others. Good and Evil exist.

If God and Evil Exist, than thier is a GOD ... Science will never explain good and evil. The only answer is there is a God.

My argument is that once you realize that there is a God, and search for god will lead you to christ,

This is still beyond you... go back to step one.

I'll try to avoid joining the name-calling here...

Originally posted by 4jacks

Ok first of all Scientist do make up theories, that is why they are called theories, [...] This is why we do not have theories, in math class. Scientist make an educated guess, and call it a theory. History has proven 80% of this to be wrong.

Correction: History has proven 99.9% of science wrong. Scientific discovery builds upon prior discovery. Theory build upon prior theories by correcting, refining or refuting them. The "flat world" theory in science was a good theory based on the evidence available at the time. Galileo et al came up with a new theory based on new evidence and observations, which said "the world is round and this is why". Lots of other people did experiments and eventually agreed. (Even the church agreed, I think sometime in the 1990s) The same thing happens all the time, in every field. Quantum mechanics built upon Newtonian mechanics; Deviation evolution (Gould's model) replaced Darwin's theory.

I don't understand why mathematics is different. You don't talk about theories in Junior High math, granted, but mathematics is a science. What about number theory, the theory of probability, Pythagoras' theorem, Fermat's theorem, logic theory, recursion theory, and the recently repopularized invariant theory? Math is a more fundamental tool than science (you could say that math is tool to help model the science, which is a tool to help model the world), but not inherently different, or exempt from the scientific method.

Second, If you don't believe in Love than you disagree with the rest of the world and you're obviously wrong.
There's no questioning this or debating this...

I don't accept any argument that says "everyone believes such-and-such." The wise man questions everything before deciding what to accept. I've been in love; I am in love, yet I question the nature of love.

You can't deny the existence of good and Evil...

Many great thinkers, past and present, have tackled the question of whether Evil exists. The bible, however, does suggest that good and evil do exist, but that's not enough for me to accept it. [looking up for lightning bolt... whew! not this time...]

I don't think it's "obvious" that God exists. I don't think it's obvious that Love exists as some entity other than a human emotion. I don't think it's obvious that good and evil exist. Although I don't know the answers (literal translation: Ag+Nostic), I think these questions are not beyond reproach, and we shouldn't write them off by saying "everyone knows this" an "everyone knows that".

[edited 'cause I messed up my quoting]

[mylittlecivic]

maybe someone should close this thread it seems to be going nowhere

closing this would be a good idea seems to be going around and around in circles

[blind34_1]

Even I got to agree with that. I say leave it open, but just leave it alone for awhile. Archive it or something.