guns

Originally posted by Ty's Si
Call it a moral victory, if you will. Once people lose the right to bear arms, the U.S. becomes a dictatorship, no better than those that existed before our time.

I definately agree. Once we as citizens loose the right to bear arms (or any type of arm besides a machine gun/rocket launcher) we will be suceptible to the govt's every whim.
The one thing all govt's fear is an armed poplulace. The reason im so agianst handguns being banned (if they ever were to be) is that we as people would no longer have the right to carry a gun for personal safety.
My underlying point with the whole handgun thing spoognet is that if handguns go, what will follow - rifles and then finnaly shotguns? Im sure a person could find a similar argument for the abolition of high powered rifles if they can also justify an argument against handguns.

Originally posted by Ty's Si
I didn't bother reading any of the posts after the initial question, but my response would be that, intuitively, people in America sense that their basic rights are being incrementally taken away, or infringed upon, over the course of time.

Year after year, the legislative branch (whether at the local, state or national level) creates and implements new laws under the guise of "protecting" people from others. The problem is that these laws spill over into the grey areas of indvidual rights.

The second ammendment is about as cut and dried as you can get in regard to personal freedoms, and personally, I feel that people are latching onto it as a last resort as their rights are gradually being eliminated.

Call it a moral victory, if you will. Once people lose the right to bear arms, the U.S. becomes a dictatorship, no better than those that existed before our time.

Some people simply see beyond the here and now.

And then in waltz Bush and his little posse of folks such as Ashcroft and ram through the Patriot Act and other things....joy.

Cashizslick: There's an extra 'e' in spoogenet.

For the record, I don't want handguns banned but I've already stated why I think it's a bad idea many times over. I'll spell it out one last time just for fun.....if you ban handguns, they won't be off the streets.....so what's the point of banning them in the first place? Ooh, ooh, I know the answer.....there isn't one!

If we could guarnatee that no handguns were in the US, period, then I think we'd all be safer. That is, of course, assuming the government doesn't do anything stupid.....but bear in mind that the people could theoretically elect Congressmen/women who would reverse the laws that are chipping away at your personal freedoms.......but that's an entirely different subject.

And one last thing, don't acuse me of being a Texan.

b

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Rob as for Canada differing from US.. There is roughly 9 times more people in the US then there is in Canada. Which means, more crime, more this, more that.. More everything. Lets get that many people in Canada and see what happens.

Gun control worked in Canada. The mean-per-capita population density in Canada is similar to the US. Compare Seattle and Vancouver - similar populations, density, economics, racial breakdown, climate, etc. Even crime rates are about the same. But in Seattle more people (criminals and victims both) die because guns are more commonly involved in that crime.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Like any good issue, gun control has strong arguments on both sides. I'm a non-gun-owning Texan and am in favor of stronger gun control in the states. I don't have a problem with not being allowed to own a gun because (1) I don't need it to defend against indians and bears, (2) if someone breaks into my home to steal my TV, I don't think I have the moral right to kill them and (3) I'm not a member of a well-regulated militia.

Oh, and I drive like a maniac, so I'd rather some pissed-off redneck not shoot at me when I cut them off.

Originally posted by spoogenet
And then in waltz Bush and his little posse of folks such as Ashcroft and ram through the Patriot Act and other things....joy.

You help support my point then.

The Patriot Act was drafted under the guise of helping the government "protect" its citizens. However its inherent power is too broad, encroaching upon certain rights to privacy, among others. Passed in haste in response to 9/11, YOUR (collective your) representatives followed blindly under the guise of it being a bill protecting "homeland security," when in fact it allows the goverment to monitor you (I smell dictatorship-like activity). It's bills like these that converge on that grey area of personal freedoms I spoke of in my earlier post; that balance between our rights to privacy, the right to bear arms, etc.

People, although they may not articulate their concerns, realize that bills such as the Patriot Act compromise and infringe upon their rights as the goverment grants itself increasing power over its citizens. So in response, people look toward the Second Amendment as something that is guaranteed and are adament about keeping it that way.

I took no sides in this discussion. I only offered my opinion as to why some people are so staunch about keeping the right to bear arms in the hands of the people.

BTW, Bush and his administration has the most power in the history of the country in comparison to any other sitting president. Keep electing the people who support him and you (collective term again) will one day come to realize that you have no more rights, nor any leverage to do anything about it. Pick your leaders wisely and register to vote damnit.

I've skimmed all 3 pages, and now it's time for me to own all of the shithead liberals here.......................Let me begin with facts.

There are about 250 million guns in this country, and that's an estimate. Almost as many guns as there are people. If you tried to ban them, you wouldn't get them all, as we don't even know how many we have. About 2-4 million come into the states every year, and about 2+ million are produced. There are about 80 million gun owners, and about 40 million handgun owners. These are rough figures off the top of my head, but they are very close. The number of times guns kill people in a CRIME are far less than the number of documented defensive gun useages (we're looking at around 2 million defense cases vs 10,000 murders). Many liberals try to skew numbers when they say that "guns kill" and try to lump suicides and accidents with murders to try to make them more evil looking.........When it comes to handguns and children, bath water, electricity, and poison are FAR more dangerous to a baby than a handgun. It comes down to the PARENTS in terms of how safe the kid is. I for one value personal responsibility, a classical conservative value. If you believe in collective rights and responsibility, you are a scumbag liberal who wants to undermine the basic principles of this great country.


The majority of crimes committed are by repeat felons, meaning they couldn't get their hands on a gun legally if they wanted to. Keeping guns locked up is a personal responsibility, and not a good reason to ban them because a small number of them get stolen. Some liberals claim that having a gun makes you more succeptable to getting killed, like the gun being stolen, taken from you in a fight, etc etc. This is BS. Most times the guns are stolen when someone isn't home, and most of the time the gun isn't taken from the victim. Look at Gary Kleck's early 90s research on guns, concealed carry and decrease in crime, and other great statistics. He won a criminology award. He proved how, over time, Concealed Carry legislation has successfully reduced crime rates, and has compared it to similar cities with statistical relevance.

Other things to consider:

An armed society is a polite society. Do you know anyone who has a concealed handgun? They know the laws better than you do, and know that us gun owners have everything stacked against them. We cannot brandish a firearm in public or take it out unless someone's life is endangered. Failure to do so gets you an assault charge with a deadly weapon. We can't even fire on an intruder unless our lives are in danger. Every gun owner, most of them RESPONSIBLE looking at the low rates of crime among us, must avoid conflict in public at all costs, and thus has to keep one's calm more often. When you carry a gun, you carry a responsibility. Contrary to the media and news reports you hear, most of us are probably better citizens than you are.

Some argue that Europe has lower crime rates because they don't allow guns. BULLSHIT.
1. The overall crime rate is LOWER IN GENERAL, lower than non gun related crimes here in America. It is NOT the gun's fault, but society. A good essay was written on this in a book, "Guns: A Reader", a collection of readings pro and con about guns in America. A violent society will always have more crime.........
2. Take a look at Switzerland. One of the lowest crime rates in the WORLD. What is their gun poilcy? MANDATORY GUN OWNERSHIP. ALL HOUSEHOLDS NEED TO MAINTAIN AT LEAST 1 RIFLE IN WORKING ORDER. People buy direct from the military. THAT, my son, is HOMELAND DEFENSE. It is a long tradtion in their country and a part of homeland security. I am not joking. Once again, the societal controls dictate how a society acts.


Look here in our own country. LA has the shittiest gun laws ever, it's impossible to get a handgun. Yet, crime is out of control, same in D.C., also one of America's biggest shitholes. In VT, we have open carry, meaning you can walk into town with a gun in the open, and you just need to be of age to get a gun, no real concealed permit necessary. Yes, the 2 environments are totally different, but as the gun controls get stricter, they work less and less.


I dobut anyone read all, or any of this. This is what I've got off the top of my head. Pardon if I missed anything.


Links to my guns:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...9/fc4e02be.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...2/fc4e02c1.jpg

Norinco 982 Home defense, and an SKS.




EDIT: WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FROM BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE SERIOUSLY. MOORE IS A FAT **** WITH AN AGENDA. Basically, from one short cartoon preview I saw, he labelled many gun owners as KKK, linking them to fearing black people, then arming up. God only knows what other shit is in that movie.

Originally posted by Mushroom
Gun control worked in Canada.
I don't have a problem with not being allowed to own a gun because (1) I don't need it to defend against indians and bears, (2) if someone breaks into my home to steal my TV, I don't think I have the moral right to kill them and (3) I'm not a member of a well-regulated militia.

Oh, and I drive like a maniac, so I'd rather some pissed-off redneck not shoot at me when I cut them off.

Gun control does NOT work in Canada. Crime has skyrocketed since stronger legislation has passed. The same has happened in Australia, and England.


Next, I don't care if you don't need a gun. That isn't a point, so don't argue it. BTW, you don't have a right to shoot an intruder just because. Get your shit straight. Next, don't think that just because we allow guns in this country, you will get shot by a "redneck" in a dispute. Random fact of the day: In 1995, out of the few hundred thousand handgun owners in Florida, about 3 people got killed by a handgun in a traffic dispute. And I don't think they were all crimes either, but rather a defense. If you don't want a handgun for protection, fine, but don't give bullshit reasons and expect others to think guns are only for "Indians and Bears", and "being in a milita".

For those against gun control, here's a funny article.

http://www.discerningtoday.org/membe...9;t%20Work.htm

The first paragraph is my favorite.

Anyone familiar with statistical analysis knows that statistics can be twisted to say almost anything. Take for example the number of deaths caused by medical mishaps: 120,000 per year in the U.S. which has approximately 700,000 physicians. That’s .171 deaths per doctor each year. Compare that with the number of gun owners, which is around 80,000,000, with 1,500 accidental gun deaths each year. That means that the number of accidental, gun related deaths each year per gun owner is .0000188. Nevertheless it would be ludicrous to say that doctors are 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. The comparison between gun owners and physicians just makes no sense. So let’s look at some statistics that really that do make sense.

Time to ban doctors....

edit: link didn't want to work, so made it just text.

Added following information:

Comparisons of any type of one country to another are very difficult. We can't fairly compare the US to any other country for issues such as gun control, education, drinking age, etc. Those issues are intertwined with our society and culture, both of which vary greatly from any other country.

b

Originally posted by AJ1978TA
I dobut anyone read all, or any of this. This is what I've got off the top of my head. Pardon if I missed anything.

I read it - i completely agree with everything you said.

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by cashizslick
I read it - i completely agree with everything you said.