To all you hippies..

[V8killimports]

Please quote me where i said canada sucks.

Provide links where Bush gave out WMD. thanks.

Yes I know we gave dual use capabilities to Iraq, but he did not give it out like candy. Do you know WHY he gave them money/conventional and non conventional weps?

[ChrisCantSkate]

i love how you jumped to the conclusion that they have already found proof, if you actually read that artical it says they found a shell that supposably had the chems in it. now i know major details are important.

if this ends up being real... good. we might not look like the biggest douches in the universe after all. however people jumping to conclusions about partial proof on something is what got us fucked up in the first place. if we actually found wepaons of mass destruction in the first place then i would be on a completly different side of this argument, howver we jumped to conclusions one and it made us look like complete jackasses to the rest of the world, and now your doing the exact same thing. i was watching the various news channels i flip through when theres nothing else on and didnt once see anything about this. makes me kinda wonder why the media hasnt jumped on this "proof" of WMD presence in iraq. hell the artical just mentions it in the 4th paragraph (not checking it, dont quote me on where it is). for some reason this "proof" dosnt seem as solid as your building it up to be

once again, if this is true and there actually were weapons in iraq since the begining of this psuedo-war, then we are actually somewhat justified in diong what we did. but im not jumping to any conslusions till i see undenyable proof.

[V8killimports]

Actually we were justified regardless. Solpol is right about one thing. Iraq has been our mess since the iran iraq war. It should have been cleaned up long ago. You cannot expect to treat people the way saddam and his sons did, and not have the living shit bombed out of you.

As for proof.. whether it contained or contains sarin does it matter? No.. it did at one time, and that is a WMD.

Originally posted by V8killimports
Please quote me where i said canada sucks.

Provide links where Bush gave out WMD. thanks.

Yes I know we gave dual use capabilities to Iraq, but he did not give it out like candy. Do you know WHY he gave them money/conventional and non conventional weps?

Ok, maybe it wasn't you, but it was said. And you told me to go live in Canada if I love it so much. Hell, you told me to go back. Like I lived there or something.

Provide links where Bush gave out WMD? Where you been for the last 20 years?

Yeah, I know why we gave them out. And look what happens. That's why I subscribe to the George Washington/Alexander Hamilton theory. STAY OUT OF WORLD AFFAIRS. It's none of our business. Who the hell made us the world police organization. Oh, that's right, we did. Yeah, that's how it works.

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
i love how you jumped to the conclusion that they have already found proof, if you actually read that artical it says they found a shell that supposably had the chems in it. now i know major details are important.

if this ends up being real... good. we might not look like the biggest douches in the universe after all. however people jumping to conclusions about partial proof on something is what got us fucked up in the first place. if we actually found wepaons of mass destruction in the first place then i would be on a completly different side of this argument, howver we jumped to conclusions one and it made us look like complete jackasses to the rest of the world, and now your doing the exact same thing. i was watching the various news channels i flip through when theres nothing else on and didnt once see anything about this. makes me kinda wonder why the media hasnt jumped on this "proof" of WMD presence in iraq. hell the artical just mentions it in the 4th paragraph (not checking it, dont quote me on where it is). for some reason this "proof" dosnt seem as solid as your building it up to be

once again, if this is true and there actually were weapons in iraq since the begining of this psuedo-war, then we are actually somewhat justified in diong what we did. but im not jumping to any conslusions till i see undenyable proof.

Ahh, thank you too much sir. Finally some logic around here.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by V8killimports
Actually we were justified regardless.

oh oh oh i wana hear why!

[V8killimports]

BTW here are a few links I took 4 seconds out of my life to find for you... It also talks about mustard gas being found prior to this.. what else do you want?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in560449.shtml

http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/012317.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

[V8killimports]

read the rest of the post.. not just the first line.

Man, until they find the nukes that they SWORE were over there, I don't wanna hear it.

[V8killimports]

lol..

then when they find nukes what are you gonna say?? You will never be satisfied.. you were wrong own up.. thanks.

They had WMD. End of story.

IF they find nukes. Then I will admit that I was wrong. Plain and simple. I don't wanna hear about a sarin gas story that hasn't even been confirmed.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by V8killimports
BTW here are a few links I took 4 seconds out of my life to find for you...

find for us? its the only bit of evidence you've given in the past 4 pages of this debate

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in560449.shtml

http://www.command-post.org/2_archives/012317.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

im going to keep my eye on these stories now, thanks for the info.

[Wren57]

Originally posted by SolPol
I don't wanna hear about a sarin gas story that hasn't even been confirmed.

Well there ya go.

And that is a chemical weapon correct?

Is it a nuke? I still said I wanna see the nukes that they SWORE were there. Got no problem eating my words then. None at all.

Hell in the opening post the guy called them chemical weapons. Not WMD.

[Wren57]

Haha... there are many weapons that are much more dangerous than nukes...

[Racing Rice]

I think its funny.. The media only reports what they are informed. I couldnt even imagine the stuff that the military knows that no one else does for one reason or another. We are all just as blind as eachother.. The media is the biggest crock of shit you could find on a daily basis.

I dont think most civilians could even handle knowing half of the shit that the military knows. Sometimes its just better that way.

As for the troops fighting for this country I salute you, and I hope you all make it home sooner then later.

Thanks!! I'll be home in exactly two weeks!!!

[V8killimports]

[i]Hell in the opening post the guy called them chemical weapons. Not WMD. [/b]

You really are dumb as a rock.. chemical weapons ARE WMD... so are biological.. and nukes.. and chem and biological are more dangerous in many ways than nukes are..

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by V8killimports
You really are dumb as a rock.. chemical weapons ARE WMD... so are biological.. and nukes.. and chem and biological are more dangerous in many ways than nukes are..

ok... this is getting to me, you want to have people listen to your arguments and have intelletucal debates speak to people as your equals. you get ALOT more across when you "inform" someone of their mistakes and point it out with proof then saying "stfu and color" (which was fucking funny, but besides the point) and the dumb as rocks comment above. what you do is find the link, artical whatever that disproves them, and present it in a somewhat civil manner. it really kills your credability when you attack the person and not the issue. your bringing up really valid points, but its just pure ignorance to resort to name calling when someone disagrees with a point of yours

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by SolPol
Well there ya go.

And that is a chemical weapon correct?

Is it a nuke? I still said I wanna see the nukes that they SWORE were there. Got no problem eating my words then. None at all.

Hell in the opening post the guy called them chemical weapons. Not WMD.

Sorry I didn't realize that the entire world even the media is on the same page.. except you.

As for having an opinion, that's fine.. but you argue something that you apparently know nothing about if you don't know that chemical weps are WMD.

I think what he's trying to say is that you try to bash on the person and not the facts they present...at least that's what I had gathered from his post.

[nonovurbizniz]

just to throw some gas on the fire..

A. the Sarin mortor could kill as many as 20 people... wow... how many people can a mortor kill?
B. The other one found was an "improvised explosive devise"... ANYONE could have made that... before OR AFTER the war...
C. NONE of these constitute evidence of the presensce of LARGE amounts of WMD much less an organized gov. sanctioned ACTIVE PRODUCTION of ANY chemical weapons..
D. BUSH NEVER SWORE THERE WERE NUKES... I HATE bush... but he DID NOT swear there were nukes there... what he said was that the was "english intelligence" that he had bought uranium or whatever from an african nation and "aluminum tubes" which COULD be used for a centerfuge to further refine said uranium.

This is NOT a "I told you so" moment..

If it were bush would be dousing himself in budwieser screaming YAHOOOOOO I WAS RIGHT... SEE SEE...

They are playing down to be what it is... 2 VERY insignificant weapons that are not evidence of ANYTHING substantial...


Unless they find a STOCKPILE of those mortors... or directions on how to make the "improvised explosive devise" issued BY THE GOVERNMENT... then it's evidence of nothing...

My buddy's neighbor (who we hang out with ALL the time) is probobly on his way over there in not too long...

I'd like the war to over as simply and quickly as possible for EVERYONE over there... our troops and the iraqi people alike.

[V8killimports]

Chemical weapons are WMD.. they are unconventional weapons. If they found stockpiles you would not admit the fact either.. you never will..

As for your buddies neighbor?? where the hell did that come from? I leave in a week and this will be my 4th rotation with a total of 18 months in the desert. So gimme a fucking cookie.

I didn't know you were in the desert...are you?

[GT40FIED]

Ok...so I stopped reading this thread somewhere in the 3rd page because it got so childish...but here's my take. First of all, the shell they found was rather small and they're not even sure if it did, in fact, contain sarin gas. In my book that doesn't qualify as a weapon of MASS destruction. Perhaps mediocre distruction. I have no doubt in my mind that even if the ordinance they found doesn't have sarin, they'll say it does...or that the tests are inaccurate or some horseshit like that. Secondly, everyone involved has said that the shell was quite old. I have no doubts that Iraq has engineered such weapons in the past...but so have we as well as dozens of other countries and we've shown just as much of a lack of control when it comes to uses of force as any dictatorial regime. The entire basis for our invasion was that weapons were STILL being made. Now...show me evidence of that and we'll call it a day. I don't see the big deal about WMDs in the first place...the U.S. has what I'm sure is the largest stockpile of nuclear (or in Bushspeak: "nucular") weapons in the world and we've proved that we're completely irresponsible. Instead of imposing our will on other nations perhaps we should focus on the massive domestic problems we've got.

As for anyone moronic enough to think the KKK EVER ran the US (from a few pages back), please go read a history book. Yes, they had influence, they even had many people in elected office. But that's the nice thing about elected office...EVERYONE gets to vote. Klansmen alone voting wouldn't put a man into office so surely other people were voting. And just because it's called the Invisible Empire don't for a second think these backwoods retards are a "secret society". Most of them will gladly boast about what they do. So no, they've never had any direct influence on how this country was run hence they never ran the country. You want someone to blame? Blame your grandparents and great grandparents for allowing such things to take place. After all, this is a democracy...you don't like how things are going, change them.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by Kool-Aid
I didn't know you were in the desert...are you?

I don't leave until the 26th.

[V8killimports]

No the invasion was because Iraq was supposed to destroy their WMD, and obviously they didn't did they? Be it 1, 100, 100,000.. they are all WMD.

But it will never end.. whatever they find you will always have people saying.. "well that's all and good but show me this and I'll believe you".

how about this?

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/me...qaeda.weapons/

Where will you be going to? Or do you not know?

[V8killimports]

Yea but cannot say this time.

[nonovurbizniz]

20 people isn't mass destruction...

A weapong of MASS destruction would indicate there would be "massive" damage...

No mortor or barrel of old mustard gas with a grenade on it is going to cause MASS damage.

If it were such a victory for his B.S. story about WMD he'd be shouting it from the roof top with his arrogant snide half cocked smile in full blast... he's not because it's not.

I mean for christ sake at this point I think HE'D be suprised if we even found EVIDENCE of a WMD program... much less a stockpile or nuclear material like he implied.

Colin Powell was reported to have said "I'm not going to read this CRAP!" about what he was handed to read to the U.N....

If that doesn't say they knew it was B.S. from the begining then how about the fact that it was ALL so PERFECTLY worded so as he wouldn't be held responsible for lying...

british intelligence tells us that Iraq meant to obtain Uranium from Niger...

REALLY???? and exactly what did OUR intelligence have to say about this report... OHHHH that it was INCORRECT AND TOTALLY UNFOUNDED... but it's still worth mentioning to the nation... RIGHHHT.

Aluminum tubes... I've got frigging aluminum tubes... Even then when they got pressed on the details as to HOW that was incriminating evidence they stated that they were CLOSE to the size they would need to be to be used as part of a centerfuge...

I said right when he spouted all that crap... Just say your daddy F'd up and you're going to fix it... I'd follow that...

not some 2 faced, lying monkey, son of a pussy who couldn't finish the job to begin with... Don't want any bad P.R. going into an election.

If they find ANY CLEAR evidence of WMD in Iraq that were GOV. SANCTIONED... I will admit I'm wrong till I'm blue in the face...

But why would bush WANT that... why not just say, there may or may not be WMD... with or without this guy is a threat to stability of not only his own nation but the world...

NO ONE could argue with that... but making up reasons and trying to make links that aren't there... and even IF they were... are CERTAINLY not HALF as bad as they are in other places...

Iran HAS Nuclear power... Pakistan HAS NUKES... N Korea and China are run by people JUST as nuts as Saddam if not more so...

If the U.S. had stopped with Afghanastan and pressed other SERIOUSLY threatening nations we'd be in a LOT better standing right now...

Also if we started taking the Palistinian's problems into account a LOT more seriously and put SERIOUS pressure on Isreal to grow the F up then we'd be in IMPECABLE standing with not just most nations but TONS of muslim nations that are either riding the fence or just hate us... don't wish us dead... but hate us.

We need to stop being such loud mouth hypocrites... You can't say that it's important to you to "deliver freedom" to the Iraqi people when you won't even acknowledge a TRUELY oppressed Country like Palistine is being Ass raped by a Gov which we ACTIVELY AND HEAVILY support... Who's going to believe you...

If you're going to be a loud arrogant american... at least be honest about it.

[V8killimports]

First off ANY chemical or biological weapon is classified as a WMD. End of story.

The rest of your shit is just a rant, and from what I gather you are one of those people who had "difficulty" with the ballot in FL and are still upset that that abomination gore lost.

Lastly.. you want israel to grow up??? Open your eyes and figure out what is going on in that region. The palestinians keep bombing israelies and you want THEM to grow up?

omg

[V8killimports]

omfg again... palestine being assraped?? Do you even know what happened there and why palestine is so pissed off? A number of arab countries didn't like israel.. they tried to kick israel in the nuts. Israel blocked and kicked them in the nuts, and in addition occupy some of their territory. Lesson learned.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by V8killimports
omfg again... palestine being assraped?? Do you even know what happened there and why palestine is so pissed off?

Actually...ummm....I do. In 1947 a bunch of EUROPEAN nations got together and formed Israel as a nation as sort of an apology to jews for the holocaust. Jews had always thought of this land as their birthright and nobody cared that palestinians lived there as well and had for thousands of years, also thinking the land was their homeland. See...modern day Israel is the birthplace of the three biggest religions: judaism, christianity, and islam. It contains some of the holiest cities to these people so saying it belongs to one and not the other is just plain wrong. As for palestinians getting the shaft, I completely agree. We fund tons of money through Israel and basically give palestinians the finger. Why? Plain and terrible truth...there are more jewish voters in the US than muslim. Nobody there is right...they're all wrong. They're destroying each other over rocks and sand. I know, I know, they think it's their rightful homeland but when it's all said and done it's just a grubby little piece of desert. If they wanna fight, by all means...natural selection will rule and the stupid will die first (the stupid being the ones who'll fight over a piece of land nobody else wanted). I just despise the fact that we give one of them money and call them right and ignore the other one. Just because we give them money does not give Israel the high ground. It has partaken in it's share of stupid shit too. Then Bush came out a while back and told Israel to slow down. WTF?! Stop giving them money dickweed. At least make it a level playing field.

As for the original topic...yes...I'd totally be willing to do a 180 if we did find new WMDs that were clearly government sponsored and say I was wrong. But hell...if a Chinese cult can manufacture massive amounts of sarin gas and bomb a subway, I'm sure some terrorist asshole has the formula too. But we all know this won't be the case. We didn't go there to attack individual terrorist cells...we went in to get Saddam out. We could've done it like Afghanistan...swift and relatively clean. But alas...no. You guys should watch "The Fog Of War". It draws some startling similarities to Iraq and Vietnam. All that said, even if we do find government sponsored WMDs, it won't change my opinion on the war. Like I said, we've got more insane nuclear warheads than anyone and we've already shown a complete lack of control as to where and how we use force. Why hasn't someone come to bomb our asses yet? Oh...that's right...because we've got a rogue dictator who has a huge cache of nuclear fucking weapons.

Honestly people, all this talk about this issue is a waste of time. What's happening in Iraq needs to be done.

If you dont support your presedent you're telling me you believe an iraqie terrorist more then the leader of the free world.

As V8 said, STFU hippies.

Photos you just dont see..

http://rock103.com/warpics/index_2.html

Frankly I wish my country was involved with this, it sucks that we arent but there is good reason to be there.


As for Israel - dont worry they can take care of themselves. They went against a much larger military in the 7 day war and walked away the victors. The reason your presedent stands beside them is because your country is a christian nation. They will always stand behind Israel and not a terrorist breading country. Who gives a shit if Palistine is getting the shaft? The world would be a better place if they were next after Iraq.

sum it up: STFU and be thankful you arent going over there.

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally posted by biker's back
Honestly people, all this talk about this issue is a waste of time. What's happening in Iraq needs to be done.

Now that it's started it does... it CERTAINLY did not "need" to be done before we invaded... if you think it did you have the threat-assesment ability of a rock.

Seriosly... explain to me how Iraq was more of a direct threat than ANY other muslim nation... It's THE most westernized culturally and governmentally. It's the LEAST fundamentalist. It's government was MORE despised than ANY other. It's citizens HAD (yeah that's right past tense) a better opinion of americans and western culture than ANY other. AND on top of it all even if there were "iraqi terrorists" most of them would have been scared to operate in country because NO ONE in Iraq beside Saddam had ANY true idea of what the relationship was between Saddam and the U.S...

We backed him in the Iran Iraq war... we didn't topple him in the gulf war... NO ONE in that country felt confident in the U.S.'s public statements on their relationship with Saddam.


If you dont support your presedent you're telling me you believe an iraqie terrorist more then the leader of the free world.

That is the single most ignorant statement I've ever heard... Who was Saddam Hussein??? THE IRAQI PRESIDENT So I guess ALL the Iraqi's who died when america pulled their support for a revolt during the 1st Gulf war we dumb hippies who deserved to die huh?

As V8 said, STFU hippies.

STFU canadian

Photos you just dont see..

http://rock103.com/warpics/index_2.html

If you need pictures to illustrate the horrors of war then you're just as retarded as you sound...

Frankly I wish my country was involved with this, it sucks that we arent but there is good reason to be there.

Frankly I wish your country was involved too... there is CERTAINLY good reason to be there now... Iraq could go from the lowest threat, least fundamental muslim nation to the biggest threat and MOST fundamental in NO TIME without EVERYONE concerned making sure it doesn't end up that way.

As for Israel - dont worry they can take care of themselves. They went against a much larger military in the 7 day war and walked away the victors. The reason your presedent stands beside them is because your country is a christian nation. They will always stand behind Israel and not a terrorist breading country. Who gives a shit if Palistine is getting the shaft? The world would be a better place if they were next after Iraq.

As long as they have the U.S.'s Weapons and funding... no they don't have anything to worry about... other than desicrating their OWN holy land with constant murder and oppression... the 7-day war was b.s. the Palestinians and egyptians were all basically drunk and happy because england told them they were ending emperialism... then when they were good and relaxed the "israeli's" attacked the shit out of them with OUR weapons... can't imagine how they won.

The REASON palistine is a "terrorist breading country" is BECAUSE we blindly stand beside Israel.

[h4]I GIVE A SHIT THAT THE PALISTINIANS ARE GETTING THE SHAFT[/h4]

sum it up: STFU and be thankful you arent going over there.

Isreal exists ONLY because niether America OR England would accept all the displaced jews from WWII... PERIOD...

We gave the "Kikes" the "sandniggers" land and didn't think twice about it...

Well look were it got us.

"why do they hate us?"

Such a difficult question right Newsweek?


*edit*

And my vote for Gore was the same as my vote for kerry will be... ANYONE but bush...

I would've voted McCain if he went against gore.

However I will admit being utterly sickened by Florida... I stayed awake to hear the results... CNN called gore the winner early... then took it back... I was just about destroyed... I SINCERELY believe that GWB will bring about the end of the world... Hell he even believes it.
*/edit*

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
I SINCERELY believe that GWB will bring about the end of the world... Hell he even believes it.
*/edit*

Ohh.. it makes sense now.. you are one of those fanatics that picket on the street with the end of the world sign?

And where did GWB say he was going to end the world?

And kikes and sandniggers was out of your mouth not mine. The vote for anybody but bush is just the most idiotic thing I have heard of.. If you don't like bush, fine.. tell you the truth I am pretty iffy on him as well.. But Kerry??!! Jesus I rather not have a president for 4 years than that idiot. He is for and against everything.

[Wren57]

Heh, on a lighter subject... Biker, I'm loving that Rock103 link... thats my hometown radio station!

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by biker's back
Honestly people, all this talk about this issue is a waste of time. What's happening in Iraq needs to be done.

If you dont support your presedent you're telling me you believe an iraqie terrorist more then the leader of the free world.

As V8 said, STFU hippies.

Photos you just dont see..

http://rock103.com/warpics/index_2.html

Frankly I wish my country was involved with this, it sucks that we arent but there is good reason to be there.


As for Israel - dont worry they can take care of themselves. They went against a much larger military in the 7 day war and walked away the victors. The reason your presedent stands beside them is because your country is a christian nation. They will always stand behind Israel and not a terrorist breading country. Who gives a shit if Palistine is getting the shaft? The world would be a better place if they were next after Iraq.

sum it up: STFU and be thankful you arent going over there.

Wow...once again, Canada has shown us the way. It's that sort of backward ass thinking that reminds me that Canada was french property for such a long time. No, we don't need to be there. Saddam's gone and anyone who thinks our being over there is doing more good than bad to OUR country (not your country or their country) is sorely mistaken. Why just today we launched missles at a WEDDING PARTY. "Hey...see that gal in the gown and all of those dressed up folks? They look like hostiles to me!". I honestly don't care what our lame ass excuse is...if we weren't there now there'd be a lot more people alive. And your "if you don't support your president then you support terrorism" is total and utter bullshit. I can't even begin to fathom the mind boggling stupidity it would take to make such a remark. People here tried that blind patriotism horseshit a while back and quickly got shut the fuck up. This is not a "either you're with us or your against us" mentality. But then again I don't suppose canadians know a whole lot about civil disobedience. Remember, WE actually fought the biggest empire in the world for the freedom to say and do as we like. I'm absolutely 100% against the president but I'm not a terrorist asshole either. I don't agree with his approach to the war on errorism (that's not a typo). So Iraq has hardbored terrorist cells. News flash: SO HAS 99% OF THE MIDDLE EAST. Why not bomb Syria or Lebanon or Iran or maybe give another pass at Serbia? All countries that probably pose more of a threat to us than Iraq. But perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself...we'll get around to bombing the fuck out of those countries when we've got time. Or how about S. Korea? Or large pockets of muslim militants in the Phillipenes? Surely they're more worthy of out attention that a country we've already bent over and done dry.

Another news flash genius...America is NOT a christian country. Yes, most members of organized religion may be christian...but I'd put money down that there's just as many jews, muslims, buddhists, athiests, and agnostics to shut christians the fuck up. And Israel's not a terrorist state? Wow...well...I guess you could be confused by their tanks and helicopters, but they use those tanks and gunships to fire into crowds of people just protesting. And if you feel threatened enough sitting in a tank with a .50 caliber machine gun while people are throwing stones at you that you need to open fire into those people aimlessly then yes, you are a terrorist asshole. Palestinians attacks Israel, Israel shoots back. Israel attacks Palestinians, Palestinians shoot back. No one is right and if Israel were the bigger person (which it clearly isn't), it would try to call a truce.

Oh...lastly, please don't try to show us a bunch of pictures like nobody knows what goes on in Iraq. Yeah...I don't see it first hand but I've got a damn good idea. A very close friend of mine is shipping out soon to do recon as a cavalry scout and I'm scared shitless he won't be coming back. But no war = no gruesome deaths and no one in harms way. Just once I'd love someone to prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Saddam was a DIRECT threat to us in the first place. Sure, he hated us, but so does 2/3 of the world.

Saddam? Direct threat? Yeah right. No chance.

Steve, I'll assume you meant North Korea not South.

Good post by the way man.

Oh, and for V8 up there:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience [has] shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce [the people] under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security."

Not mine. Thomas Jefferson's. But what did he know right?

I think V8 needs to drink some V8. Because he is a little off