A religous thread, topic; Heaven

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by highlander
If Jesus were to write a book, he would be considered a self-deist, and that has obvious implications.

Well sure...if you're not really the son of god.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
But have the people themselves changed over the past 100 years? No, we're exactly the same. In fact, have people changed over the past 3000 years? No, we're exactly the same, except for being a little be taller on average, but that's what I would describe as micro-evolution. I do believe that species adapt to their environment or just change a little bit, such as height, but humans are still humans, and we work the same way. This scenario works for all animals as well. I have yet to hear of a single animal that has changed from one type to another.

I know I haven't been active at all in this entire thread and in fact is the first time I've read it in a long time. but i just thought I would throw in my two cents just because I am a strong beleiver in evolution.
I see where you are coming from with not seeing much in the way of evolution in humans but not all evolution is something that is outwardly apparent

just a thing to put out there
sicklecell anemia - which by definition production of a blood hemoglobin which doesnt absord as much oxygen as normal hemoglobin. although it can be fatal, sickle cell in one mutation form carries a distinct advantage over normal blood as it doesn't allow Malaria to affect an individual
Sickle Cell Anemia


everyday we as people may use antibacterial soaps and such. and it kills bacteria. well until the bacteria begins to evolve and create a defense or immunity to the "antibacterial" products
bacteria

Another fact i remember hearing and dug up. As you get into high altitudes oxygen will begin to lessen.because of the lack of oxygen humans might develop acute hypoxia. now those people who do live in those enviroments have developed a defense against this through evolution. this defense has given their blood the ability to carry more oxygen than a normal human who lives at sea level
National Geographic

just a few things to ponder. now because I beleive evolution doesn't mean that I dont beleive the bible. I can't prove either right or wrong and no one ever will be able to I'm sure. but to me evolution just makes a lot more sense

[CD5Passion]

in all honesty that is one of the most unbiased sights I've read but it still bothers me like Steve said. the evidence used for every argument are passages from the bible. and the bible was written from people who are not perfect and in fact could have been very biased

not to mention that through communication things always change. you tell one person something and by tthe time that one thing you said gets to about 20 people it has changed. truths get stretched and distorted.
until I see something for myself I will remain "neutral" . which leads me to another problem, why is it that if you are not with god you are against him. isn't that kinda...well threatening?
‘The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters’ (Matthew 12:30)

[FlooredAccord]

Speaking of heaven, you would also have to specify, because in religiuos heaven, there are three "layers" to heaven. 1=earth,2=outer space, 3=Heaven where God is and where you go when you die.

[AzCivic]

Gosei_Passion
those examples are very good, but they are very minor. when i think of evolution, I think of dinosaurs turning into birds or ape creatures turning into man or non-life turning into single cell life then turning into more complex life until one day there's humans. and to me that just doesnt fly.

also in regards to your question about the accuracy of the bible, in the second link you should find quite a bit of info to help you decide if its accurate or not.

about the if your not w/ god your against him thing, well think about it. if god is offering his help to bring you to his kingdom and keep you from going to hell, and you flat out refuse, well thats kind of a slap in the face only on a whole different level.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
[b]I didn't click the FAQs...I just started clicking on articles. Haha. As for the "Book of Jesus" thing, I understand what you're saying...but don't you think that Jesus, presumably having infinite prescience, would have figured that people would want to hear straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? It's one thing to hear "and Jesus said unto them..." but it'd be a whole different thing if it said "and I[/i] said unto them and here's why...". See the difference?

wouldnt even make a bit of difference? if you wont believe it from first hand accounts, why would you believe him? I mean, someone can say they rose from the dead, but no one would believe it unless others witnessed it anyway.

[GT40FIED]

As I remember, no one actually witnessed him rise from the dead. They just came by later and found him gone. Then again...I'm getting a bit rusty in my old age.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
Gosei_Passion
those examples are very good, but they are very minor. when i think of evolution, I think of dinosaurs turning into birds or ape creatures turning into man or non-life turning into single cell life then turning into more complex life until one day there's humans. and to me that just doesnt fly.

also in regards to your question about the accuracy of the bible, in the second link you should find quite a bit of info to help you decide if its accurate or not.

about the if your not w/ god your against him thing, well think about it. if god is offering his help to bring you to his kingdom and keep you from going to hell, and you flat out refuse, well thats kind of a slap in the face only on a whole different level.

but are we not in fact made up of millions upon millions of single celled organisms? organisms that have bound together and communicate with one another.

and with the being with god thing. I dont see it as "flat out refusing". I'm a human being, and I'm very curious. there are too many possibilities past the faith that make sense to me. he made me, i think he should be understanding.
and again that's just how i feel.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
he made me, i think he should be understanding.

That's one thing that always got me. If god did indeed make us, why leave all of this stuff around to give some of us reason to doubt? If it's a test, fuck that. If he REALLY wanted us by his side in an afterlife, don't you think he would've created our minds in such a way that we'd refuse any "false temptations"? Remember...some people don't have absolute faith. Questions will, and I think need to be, asked.

[AzCivic]

GT40, yeah no one was sitting there right when he got up, but after he rose he went and talked to people.

yes questions should be asked and I think alot of them are answered in those 2 links. also like i said earlier, what other religion doesn't make you earn your way into heaven? i mean think about it, what trivial crap can a human being do to somehow earn a his way to"paradise" next to god (or who/whatever else)for an eternity? would giving all your money to the poor somehow earn your way? i mean considering that you would have lived poorly for what would actually be a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things, i doubt it. that was just an example, but you get the idea.

i guess you guys feel almost resentful, like if god loves me so much why is it so hard to actually know what to do. i can understand that, all I can say is look at all the evidence that is given in those links, think about it and to try to figure out what you feel is right, and go from there. obviously I myself can't prove to you what is the right way, not much in life can be taken for fact anyway, most is just what you believe. i believe the earth is round because i've seen evidence for it which includes pictures, i myself have never went out in a space ship and looked.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
but are we not in fact made up of millions upon millions of single celled organisms? organisms that have bound together and communicate with one another.

if this were true, then all our millions upon millions of single celled organisms would have had to come together at the same time and not over millions of years. for example, we cannot live without say a liver or a brain or (whatever else there is thats vital to survival even on the most basic level)

this kind of example goes down to the cellular level as well, there are certain things that are vital for one cell to live that all have to be there at the same time.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
GT40, yeah no one was sitting there right when he got up, but after he rose he went and talked to people.

yes questions should be asked and I think alot of them are answered in those 2 links.

but those links honestly don't hold much ground due to the fact that they are written by humans. now if god were to have written those links then hell I'm game. but in essence those links are nothing more than how an individual interprets everything, their opinions...not facts
(btw this thread rocks just cause it's giving me insight to religious ideals)

[AzCivic]

well you could say god is working through them to get that info to everyone. do you honestly think god is going to start up a website??? also that info is about as factual as anything else you might learn, basically its based on observations of the world around us.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
That's one thing that always got me. If god did indeed make us, why leave all of this stuff around to give some of us reason to doubt? If it's a test, fuck that. If he REALLY wanted us by his side in an afterlife, don't you think he would've created our minds in such a way that we'd refuse any "false temptations"? Remember...some people don't have absolute faith. Questions will, and I think need to be, asked.

You should know that God DIDN'T intend it to be the way it is now. In the beginning, as it states in Genesis, the world was perfect, as it will be in heaven, without sin, sickness, or any of the other evils that are so prevalent in this world. Because God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, and they did it anyway, he sent a curse onto mankind as punishment for disobeying him. Now, you might be asking why he put those trees there in the first place. Good point. The reason is, though, that God doesn't want robots who follow Him. Which is more gratifying, someone who bakes you a birthday cake because you tell them to, or because they do it out of love and kindness? God had and has the power to make a people who know nothing other than obeying and worshipping Him, but that's certainly not what he wants.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
As I remember, no one actually witnessed him rise from the dead. They just came by later and found him gone. Then again...I'm getting a bit rusty in my old age.

No, however many people did see his dead body be wrapped tightly in cloths and then placed in an empty tomb. There was no disputing his death. The Romans didn't take anyone down from the cross until they were dead. Later, however, well over 400 people who knew him previously and knew of his death DID see him alive again, and Thomas saw the wounds in his hands and feet.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Well sure...if you're not really the son of god.

How would that change your perspective? Just because he said it doesn't make it different. You would still have all the same arguements, since you weren't around during that time. It also wouldn't prove anymore that he was the son of God than it does now (for the record I'll add that I DO believe it proves he was the son of God).

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
You should know that God DIDN'T intend it to be the way it is now. In the beginning, as it states in Genesis, the world was perfect, as it will be in heaven, without sin, sickness, or any of the other evils that are so prevalent in this world. Because God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, and they did it anyway, he sent a curse onto mankind as punishment for disobeying him. Now, you might be asking why he put those trees there in the first place. Good point. The reason is, though, that God doesn't want robots who follow Him. Which is more gratifying, someone who bakes you a birthday cake because you tell them to, or because they do it out of love and kindness? God had and has the power to make a people who know nothing other than obeying and worshipping Him, but that's certainly not what he wants.

I see the story of the serpent and the apple as more of a parable about human nature. To me, it exemplifies wanting what you can't have an the consequences that follow in doing what you know you shouldn't. That said...why would it have been so difficult for a god to make his presence known and undeniable? I mean...just because you know he's real doesn't mean you'd have to worship him. I know cantalopes are real...but I don't worship cantalopes (although they are quite tasty). It's funny, you mention that god has the ability to make people who know nothing but worship and obedience yet he doesn't...but somehow those people still exist anyway. Strange paradox, one might say.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
How would that change your perspective? Just because he said it doesn't make it different. You would still have all the same arguements, since you weren't around during that time. It also wouldn't prove anymore that he was the son of God than it does now (for the record I'll add that I DO believe it proves he was the son of God).

But you're forgetting he's the key factor in Christianity. Without Jesus, there really isn't much to talk about. He's the metaphorical link between man and god. Without that link, god becomes intangiable to most. I think it would be important to hear what he had to say. If I knew I was the son of god, I wouldn't go around dictating my thoughts to people. I'd write my own book, assuming that people might want to know how my brain worked. I'm not saying he should write about what he did and where he went...but more how he thought /his thoughts on his own teachings.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
I know I haven't been active at all in this entire thread and in fact is the first time I've read it in a long time. but i just thought I would throw in my two cents just because I am a strong beleiver in evolution.
I see where you are coming from with not seeing much in the way of evolution in humans but not all evolution is something that is outwardly apparent

just a thing to put out there
sicklecell anemia - which by definition production of a blood hemoglobin which doesnt absord as much oxygen as normal hemoglobin. although it can be fatal, sickle cell in one mutation form carries a distinct advantage over normal blood as it doesn't allow Malaria to affect an individual
Sickle Cell Anemia


everyday we as people may use antibacterial soaps and such. and it kills bacteria. well until the bacteria begins to evolve and create a defense or immunity to the "antibacterial" products
bacteria

Another fact i remember hearing and dug up. As you get into high altitudes oxygen will begin to lessen.because of the lack of oxygen humans might develop acute hypoxia. now those people who do live in those enviroments have developed a defense against this through evolution. this defense has given their blood the ability to carry more oxygen than a normal human who lives at sea level
National Geographic

just a few things to ponder. now because I beleive evolution doesn't mean that I dont beleive the bible. I can't prove either right or wrong and no one ever will be able to I'm sure. but to me evolution just makes a lot more sense

It's important that you understand the difference between adaptation and evolution, because they are not the same. Evolution is a major change, always physical and observable, such as body parts changing and "morphing" into something else over a period of time. Adaptation, on the other hand, is a change within your existing self. Your body is adapting constantly to everything going on around you: light, smell, touch, hearing, and taste, as well as other changes like your oxygen example. Anybody who spends enough time at high altitudes will adapt to it. Think about it: when you go into someone else's house it usually has a different smell, doesn't it? After 15 minutes, do you still notice it or smell it? No. Concerning the soap example; that's the same deal. Just like a vaccine in humans, the bacteria begins to recognize what's killing it and either avoid it or find some other way to keep itself from dying. Is it still bacteria? Yes. It's simply adapting to its environment.

[TriumphRoadster6]

[I'm a human being, and I'm very curious. there are too many possibilities past the faith that make sense to me. he made me, i think he should be understanding.
and again that's just how i feel.

If you went to a stranger's house, without him knowing you at all, would you expect him to let you in? I sure wouldn't, and wouldn't let a stranger into my house. It's the same way with God, and heaven is his house. If you don't have a relationship with him through Christ, why would he let you into heaven? However, a stranger would meet you at the door and let you in if you had a good reason. And that's what God does when we come to Him through prayer and ask for forgiveness through his Son and place our faith in him.

Like I said a few posts back, it wasn't supposed to be this way, but as a result of Adam's sin, we all have sin and have to struggle with things throughout life.

[pdiggitydogg]

I just dont understand why we continue to have these kinds of posts. No one is changing any one elses minds...which is why I have stopped giving my opinion on the subject.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Have you ever thought that evolution defies 2 well accepted and proven scientific theories?

First, it defies the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. That pretty much kills the big bang theory. This law has NEVER been proven false, all throughout history, and never will be. Energy can be converted from one form to another (heat, light, chemical, etc) but never created or destryed. Now you're saying, "OK, so there was energy already there and it converted into some type of explosion that created everything." If that's true, where did it come from? And if you can answer that, where did that come from? You respond, "OK, fine then, where did God come from if you're so smart?!" Well, I can't answer that and neither can anyone else, but the fact remains that I have a basis for my faith, whereas you put your faith in something that you know nothing about, or if it even exists.

The second law it defies is the Law of Entropy, which states that all things degrade and fall into a state of disorganization over time. Again, this is contrary to everything evolution teaches. (Again, don't get this confused with adaptation, it's not the same). People don't get more healthy as they get old, and ALL things wear out over time. Your Granddad and my Triumph are good examples of this.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
[b]Right...but that site makes the assumption that the bible is infallible...that all of these questions can be solved by reading it.

I can understand you saying that, and you're definitly not the first. But if the Bible IS falliable, why should do anything good at all? Why not go out and kill 10 people right now? What tells me I can't do it? The Government, you might answer. OK fine, where does the government get it's basis for right and wrong? It's simple, when you get down to it, all morals, ideals, and ideas of good and evil go back to the Bible. Without it, there is no all-powerful authority to say you should do this or you can't do this. It would be silly to argue that humans inherintely are good. Take a look around, and in the broad scheme of things, truely kind and selfless deeds are nearly nonexistant. Almost everything is done with a thought of self gain or self preservation, and I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else, so don't think I'm sitting on a high horse pointing at everyone else. If you care to admit it to yourself, you're notice the same thing about your own actions.

Which brings me to another important point: being a Christian doesn't mean being perfect or even good. It simply means being forgiven. All followers of Christ face the same problems, sins, and temptations as anyone else, it's just that we have someone to lean on when we're weak, forgive us when we sin, and a Book of inerrant truths on which to base our lives and everything else.

[pdiggitydogg]

(actually...the conservation law remains true on the big bang theory, despite the current ideas of string theory and quantum physics that the laws of physics bend or even do not apply at the subatomic level.)
(The law of entropy also applies to evolution...no one is saying that the human species or all creatures in general are not falling down the spiral. They just happen to thrive in the current situation....ie mutations that are successful.)

Screw it...I wanna say this:
We are not special beings. To say we are the made in the image of god, is to say that a flawless all powerful, perfect being has back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and is prone to carpal tunnel syndrome

Damn...I did what I said I wouldnt do. Now, I promise promise...no more from me.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
(actually...the conservation law remains true on the big bang theory, despite the current ideas of string theory and quantum physics that the laws of physics bend or even do not apply at the subatomic level.)
(The law of entropy also applies to evolution...no one is saying that the human species or all creatures in general are not falling down the spiral. They just happen to thrive in the current situation....ie mutations that are successful.)

Screw it...I wanna say this:
We are not special beings. To say we are the made in the image of god, is to say that a flawless all powerful, perfect being has back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and is prone to carpal tunnel syndrome

Damn...I did what I said I wouldnt do. Now, I promise promise...no more from me.

You just said that those 2 laws don't apply to this situation without giving so much as a shred of evidence. I'm gonna have to say that regarding those two things, you don't know what you're talking about. (I'm not saying that rudely, though it probably comes across that way.)

Also, you must never have read Genesis or have read my previous post. In the beginning, when humans were created, we WERE made in the image of God, and DID NOT have any back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and we were not prone to carpal tunnel syndrom. All this and more came about as the sin and disobedience of Adam. God cursed mankind for that blunder. That is why he sent his son Jesus Christ to be the perfect sacrafice for us, because with all this sin we could not be accepted into heaven by him. He accepts Christ's perfect life as payment all the bad we've done in our lives.

[pdiggitydogg]

I cant give the reasons becuase I am not a quantum physicist...I do not grasp the subject manner enough to even attempt an explanation. I just know that on the quantum scale, physics do not apply. Yet, at the size of thematter large enough to be called such, physics does apply and therefore all matter, condensed into such a minute space, creates massive amounts of energy. Where the matter comes from, originally, comes into play from string theory, and that the dimensions are simply globs of energy waving about. Collisions may have caused OUR big bang...where as others, create alternate universes between the dimensions.
All of course, is theory based on mathmatics.

There, Im staying out of it. No anti-religious comments...though I wouldnt mind saying more.... Don't get me wrong, Im not some anti-religious atheist....well atheist maybe, but not anti-religious. I understand that it is important to many, MANY people and I totally respect that and those people...many on this site included. It is a faith thing - Ive got mine, you've got yours. I think it is folly to try to disprove something as fundamental as that.

And oh, I have read genisis.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
[There, Im staying out of it. No anti-religious comments...though I wouldnt mind saying more.... Don't get me wrong, Im not some anti-religious atheist....well atheist maybe, but not anti-religious. I understand that it is important to many, MANY people and I totally respect that and those people...many on this site included. [/b]

Thanks for that. I wish there were more people who would be respectful like you. So far the people debating this on this forum have been very respectful which is rare and good. I'll continue to try and provide evidence for a Creator, but I try to do it in a polite manner which doens't offend people. As Patrick Henry said, "I don't agree with a thing you say, but I'll die defending your right to say it."

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
I can understand you saying that, and you're definitly not the first. But if the Bible IS falliable, why should do anything good at all? Why not go out and kill 10 people right now? What tells me I can't do it?

Well that's incredibly over-simplified. I have a conscious and I know right from wrong. These ideals have nothing to do with religion. No one with a shred of intelligence would state that humans are inantely good, but we do create social norms and mores that most people will follow regardless of their religious affiliation. And I'm pretty sure the concept of good and evil predates the bible. Good and evil and right and wrong have nothing to do with religion...it's all perception. That's why one thing can be wrong to me and right to you. Since there's a subjective nature of good and evil, I think it's safe to say that the bible didn't lay down the cornerstone for such ideas.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
If you went to a stranger's house, without him knowing you at all, would you expect him to let you in? I sure wouldn't, and wouldn't let a stranger into my house. It's the same way with God, and heaven is his house. If you don't have a relationship with him through Christ, why would he let you into heaven? However, a stranger would meet you at the door and let you in if you had a good reason. And that's what God does when we come to Him through prayer and ask for forgiveness through his Son and place our faith in him.

Like I said a few posts back, it wasn't supposed to be this way, but as a result of Adam's sin, we all have sin and have to struggle with things throughout life.

Well...again...over-simplification. If god did indeed create us, then how could we possibly be "strangers in his house"? One could even make the argument that god has an obligation to let us in since it's written that he loves us all. And if those writings are so accurate, one would be remise not to believe them. So either god's love is unconditional or he demands pennance (or attrition) and total control. It can't be both ways since philosophically the ideas cancel each other out. Also, why does my relationship with god have to lead through Jesus? I know...many christians have this insanely weird and almost incest-like idea that Jesus is god thus making him his own dad, but what about other religions? Surely there are jews and buddhists and muslims that pray to their god and worship him whole-heartedly but bypass the Jesus middle-man. Are they doomed? Doubtful...since many of them lead more good and pure lives than many christians.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
Have you ever thought that evolution defies 2 well accepted and proven scientific theories?

First, it defies the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. That pretty much kills the big bang theory. This law has NEVER been proven false, all throughout history, and never will be. Energy can be converted from one form to another (heat, light, chemical, etc) but never created or destryed. Now you're saying, "OK, so there was energy already there and it converted into some type of explosion that created everything." If that's true, where did it come from? And if you can answer that, where did that come from? You respond, "OK, fine then, where did God come from if you're so smart?!" Well, I can't answer that and neither can anyone else, but the fact remains that I have a basis for my faith, whereas you put your faith in something that you know nothing about, or if it even exists.

Well...ok...so if Law of Conservation of Energy cancels out the big bang, then certainly cancels out god as well. Many people will respond to you "well god has just always been". Riiiiight. If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and I think it's safe to assume god would have tp be one or the other, then god can't just appear, either. Something can't come from nothing. It's impossible. There are so many theories as to what precipitated the big bang, I scarcely know where to begin. There is, however, only one statement of god's origins. First there was nothing, and then he was there. Like *poof*, I'm god! Either he's a Hoodini or something doesn't fit there. But then again that's neither here nor there. Science and religion go together about as well as oil and water. My point is that you can't chide one person for not having proof while offering none yourself.

[CD5Passion]

we've had several not so respectful debates in the past lol, i think Wren and Steve can booth attest for that.

i stayed out of most of the argument just because I find it useless to try and peach to eachother about thinks we obviously won't change our minds on. faith is faith..i grew up roman catholic, but have strong faith in darwinism or something to that effect haha.

[GT40FIED]

I feel the need to psuedo-revive this because an idea has just come to me. Many of you will refer to evolution as the idea that humans evolved from apes. A cunning theory made by equally cunning theorists, but wrong. Even Darwin's evolutionary theory follows the same basic principal...survival of the fittest. Now...this may not seem important to your day to day moron who can screw anything that moves, but humans aren't the only things inhabiting this planet.

I would particularly like to know your thoughts on bacteria. Particularly, antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria brought about by mankind's retardation due to the fact that we stop taking drugs when we feel better and not when the infection is gone. What does this do? That's right...the bacteria left become more resilient and immune to the same antibiotic. Much like the next time you set off a bug bomb in your apartment, there will be a roach or two left here and there. They will breed and their offspring will most likely be resistant to the poison you tried to use. Likewise, bacteria will evolve to fight off drugs (I think they do this solely to spite creationsits). In regards to the theory of degradation, this is degrading mankind's ability to fight of diseases naturally. Over the last 3 or 4 generations, we've become so dependant on drugs to fight off things like the flu and even things like HIV/AIDS, we've degraded our own immune systems. We no longer have the same potential to fight off regular everyday germs that we used to and what's worse is that these same germs are the very ones that have become immune to our bullshittery. Call it "adaptation" if you want, but the writing's on the wall. Adaptation IS evolution. Whether it's by the grace of your god or not...it's still change in favor of a species...and that's evolution.

[AzCivic]

How is adaptation evolution? If I add alot of protein all of a sudden to my diet I get gas real bad, eventually my body adapts to the change and I'm fine, so did I just evolve? No, I'm still a human, just like that bacteria is the same bacteria only now more resistent to whatever popular drug thats used to fight it off. No amount of anti-bacterial this and that is gonna change that bacteria into say a snail.

[AzCivic]

and if god created the universe and the energy within it, then he probably doesnt have to conform to any rule of the universe, since well he wrote the rules.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
How is adaptation evolution? If I add alot of protein all of a sudden to my diet I get gas real bad, eventually my body adapts to the change and I'm fine, so did I just evolve? No, I'm still a human, just like that bacteria is the same bacteria only now more resistent to whatever popular drug thats used to fight it off. No amount of anti-bacterial this and that is gonna change that bacteria into say a snail.

No, that would not be evolution, simply because I seriously doubt that adaptation would be something passed on as a beneficial trait during breeding to forward the species. I'm not sure where the snail thing came from...but again, you're stuck on the idea that evolution has to change one thing into another. Any change in a species that is passed down from one generation to another to forward the species itself is still evolution.

As for god creating the universe thus not having to play by it's rules...ok...but there's a flaw there. If god created the universe, where did he come from before creating it? Since something can't come from nothing and god can't have always just been there, he's got to come from somewhere, too.

[CD5Passion]

AZ steve is right, everytime you have spoken against evolution you have been stuck on the idea that evolution isn't anything less than ape to man.

this was part of my argument a bit ago steve. the evolution of bacterial strains in order for it to continue to survive. sure the bacteria is generally the same bacteria BUT a certain strand of DNA or RNA has changed or been added that will allow it to be resistant to antibiotics. By the strain changing its form to adapt to it's enviroment it HAS evolved into a new strain.

[AzCivic]

i'm sorry, but from what I know the whole evolution thing goes hand in hand with the big bang. so if you all are saying that evolution is just minor changes due to adaptations, then whats the point? it doesnt conflict with the bible at all.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i'm sorry, but from what I know the whole evolution thing goes hand in hand with the big bang. so if you all are saying that evolution is just minor changes due to adaptations, then whats the point? it doesnt conflict with the bible at all.

See...that's the entire point. The two CAN go together. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. The only reason people lump evolution in with things like the big bang is because they're both rooted in science rather than religion (and people assume they both contradict religion). I don't really remember saying that evolution contradicted the bible...I do remember clearly stating the possibility of the merger of both ideas (what most people refer to as "creative evolution").

[AzCivic]

right they can go together, but inorder to do so you'd have to agree that humans are infact special and did not evolve into what they are today. right?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
right they can go together, but inorder to do so you'd have to agree that humans are infact special and did not evolve into what they are today. right?

Not really. Since I can't prove anything one way or the other, I have no idea. These are just ideas. With all of the rampant, unadulterated stupidity I see these days, I find it hard to believe that humans are special. I mean...every time a guy ejaculates he releases roughly 250 million sperm. The fact that one of those hits an egg is far from remarkable. Yet for some reason, people still tell their kids they're special. Humans as a whole work roughly the same way. We WANT to believe we're special. We NEED to believe we're special therefore it's simple to concoct a scenario which makes us...go on, guess...special. The idea that we're made in (a) god's image is not only narcissistic but somewhat preposterous. Such an act would imply that we are modeled after a perfect being making us all the more special. Furthermore, does that mean god has a heart, appendix, colon, or pelvic splanchnic ganglian? Which reminds me...if you want proof that we've changed, look at your appendix. Rabbits and certain other animals use their appendiz to digest rough folliage. Nowhere in biblical history does it detail humans eating things like grass that would be undigestable by their stomachs. So, logically, that would mean that somewhere along the way mankind lived off a very different diet...most likely a long, long time ago.