A religous thread, topic; Heaven

[Wren57]

I think most of you know my stance on religion and the existance of God. This is not a thread to debate God, Lucifer, or why people believe or disbelieve. Save all that for other threads, please. One of the loopholes I see in religion is the existance of heaven. I understand hell; it is eternal torture for evils committed on Earth; yeah, that would suck. But what about heaven? If it is truly a 100% peaceful, blissful, and perfect place, would it not be boring? What would you do for all eternity? So much of what we do on Earth, especially in captialist America, is driven by competition. In a perfect heaven, nobody can lose, nobody can win, so therefore is there no competition? Also, there would be no challenges. For example, building a house or even something as simple as cooking a good meal could be a challenge on Earth. If everything is perfect in heaven, it is easy, and we can do everything perfectly, so the challenge is lost in building that house and cooking that meal; so does the sense of satisfaction of achievement disappear as well? IS there even anything to achieve in heaven? If not, why even continue to exist? (can you tell I'm a functionalist?)

Just something I've always wondered... I think heaven would be awful boring (although better than hell)... just rambling thoughts.

Discuss.

[mavaaoife]

In the jewish religon.. the way to acheve heaven status is to complete 613 mitzvahs (good deeds).. Like you earn you way to heaven i guess. But jewish peeps also dont believe in hell so.. it kind of doesnt make sense in a way...

[GT40FIED]

Well...most people I've met will tell you that "heaven" is whatever you want it to be. That's crap. Wren, this is probably the first and last time you and I will ever agree on a religious topic. I think the idea of heaven as a "paradise" would suck. Sure, it would be good for a short while...but what of eternity? Man...if there were no conflict (internal or external) for eternity, surely people would become insane. Like you said, if every house I built were a mansion and every meal I cooked were gourmet, it would lose it's specialty after a while. It would be like an episode of The Twilight Zone. Particularly the one where that one guy is the sole survivor of that huge war and all he wants to do is read...then he breaks his glasses. When faced with limitless possibilities for happiness, how would one confront their perfect desires if they were readily available on a daily basis? Personally, I would think that perfection would be achieved in the buddhist-like reincarnation...but only if I could retain my full consciousness in my next life. There's not much chance of me being me if I come back as a butterfly. If there is a heaven, I want it to be simply an extentionof my life on this planet. I want conflicts, I want problems, I want dilemas. Without those, where's the joy in triumph?

[AzCivic]

your first mistake is to trying to compare heaven to anything that has to do w/ the world including human emotions.

[mavaaoife]

^5 I agree

[mylittlecivic]

Well I believe hell is just another word' or way of saying the common grave, people die their thoughts perish, its in the bible. The bible also says that heaven is a place that only a certain amount of people will go to. But most people will be ressurected to earth when it is time in gods eyes, Then those people will have eternal life, slowly become perfect again,& restore the earth to paradise, just as was gods original plan before satan challenged his solveriegnty.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
your first mistake is to trying to compare heaven to anything that has to do w/ the world including human emotions.

Well that becomes one of the problems, too. With infinite possibilities comes infinite opinions. Nobody will ever know about "heaven" or if one even exists until they die...and chances are once that happens they're not going to be able to tell you about it. I'd like to think if I did "go" somewhere after I died, that it'd be a semi-extention of my normal life. I think all religions that contain a paradise after death (which is just about all of them) leave them intentionally vague on purpose. That way you can form your own idea in your head of how it's supposed to be. Otherwise you could decide you didn't like someone else's version and say screw it.

[Fatal070]

Well I just try to do my best to do good and have is much fun as I can and just hope for the best when I die.... My one friend does not believe in heaven or hell... He believes when you die you just pretty much sleep....

[B16DoHcCrx033003]

^ I don't know if he is talking about me. I also feel that way. I dont believe in anything. I believe we are here and then we die. Thats it. No heaven no hell. No God no jesus. Just humans and animals. Most people so i am going tohell for thinking this. Well, how am i suppost to go to what i dont believe. Maybe when you die your going to my hell????

[Fatal070]

Tim I was talking about Brett... I didn't know you believed the same, we'll have to talk about that I do believe in a higher power..

[B16DoHcCrx033003]

Oh i didnt know if you knew what i believed in or not. I also feel the same as Brett tho. I DO NOT want to offend anyone by saying this remember this is MY OPINION! Nothing to get made over. Anyways i think that some guy just wrote the bible in his basement and made everyone believe it. There is no proof of anything. Who knows everyone in US could have been led into a lie their whole life. We would never know. I do support what other people believe tho. As for me it's just a little different.

[Mischief]

when you think about dying and shit like that and what there is afterwards don't you sometimes wish you could almost die now just to find out.. curiousity killed the cat.. it's almost like reading a book.. you want to skip a few pages to find out what happens

[Fatal070]

naaa I'd rather find out later... lol like 60 years later...

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by B16DoHcCrx033003
Anyways i think that some guy just wrote the bible in his basement and made everyone believe it. There is no proof of anything.

how do you know there is no proof? because if there was, surely the school you attended would tell you about it? this same school of course being a part of a school system that shuns any attempt at religious teaching..

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Well that becomes one of the problems, too. With infinite possibilities comes infinite opinions. Nobody will ever know about "heaven" or if one even exists until they die...and chances are once that happens they're not going to be able to tell you about it. I'd like to think if I did "go" somewhere after I died, that it'd be a semi-extention of my normal life. I think all religions that contain a paradise after death (which is just about all of them) leave them intentionally vague on purpose. That way you can form your own idea in your head of how it's supposed to be. Otherwise you could decide you didn't like someone else's version and say screw it.

there are clues as to what heaven is like in the bible some being pretty specific, i just can't remember exactly what they said.

isnt the muslim idea of heaven kind of like what you want, an extension of this life, but in a paradise. and if you die in the fight to win the holy war, you get a bunch of virgins or something?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
there are clues as to what heaven is like in the bible some being pretty specific, i just can't remember exactly what they said.

isnt the muslim idea of heaven kind of like what you want, an extension of this life, but in a paradise. and if you die in the fight to win the holy war, you get a bunch of virgins or something?

Man, I don't know. So many people have perferted the Qur'an lately that I don't know what's true and what's not. I don't think paradise is for me, though. Paradise (at least at face value) would be without conflict, and without conflict there's no sense of victory or triumph. And 72 virgins? In heaven? Wouldn't that be kind of...ummm...messy?

And to an extent I have to agree with B16dohc...I don't think the bible was "written by some guy in his basement", but I do KNOW it was written by possibly as many as dozens of people over a few hundred years. I also believe that it's important lies in the message, not it's details. I think it's more important to read it as a parable than a play-by-play of how to live your life. I mean...bushes sponataneously bursting into flames, people turning into salt, and virgin births are just a bit much for me to swallow as truths. Metaphors, sure. But not truths.

[B16DoHcCrx033003]

I feel the same way. All the miracles that happened back them never happen now. When do you hear a virigin getting pregnant...... yeah i haven't. Rmember these are just our opinions nothing else. Cause i know someone is going to get offended and cry about it.

[KwikR6]

I believe in heaven. Although I'm not educated enough to make any huge valid points about heaven right now. I haven't read the bible, or studied enough. I do however think that no matter how much we think we know, or want to know, it'll be completely different then what anyone expected.

[AzCivic]

i kind of find it funny (and please don't be offended) that the same people who will not and cannot believe in such things as miracles in the bible, are also the same who have no problem entertaining the idea of aliens, ufo's, and crop circles.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i kind of find it funny (and please don't be offended) that the same people who will not and cannot believe in such things as miracles in the bible, are also the same who have no problem entertaining the idea of aliens, ufo's, and crop circles.

Well...that's 2 entirely different belief systems. Alien life is pretty much a scientific certainty. Billions of galaxies with millions of planets each, it's not a big leap to think we're not alone. Whether or not they visit us is a bit different...more of a leap of faith...but again it's backed up by some decent evidence. Miracles in the bible are almost all purely leaps of faith. It's sort of "he said, she said". People who believe in "the good book" will be much more inclined to accept these "miracles" than people who don't. People who don't particularly believe will want proof. Problem being that over 2000 years, proof (if any) is most likely gone. I actually think most of the things in the bible occured (save water into wine, turning one fish into 100, etc.)...but that there are explanations for them not understood by people who threw stones at their own shadows and died of old age and fear at 37.

People also tend to look at things differently now. 2000 years ago if you claimed "god" (or insert likewise diety here) spoke to you, you were a prophet. Now if "god" speaks to you, they load you up on anti-psychotics after letting you out of your padded cell. Look no further than Koresh or Jim Jones. They called themselves messiahs or prophets and everyone (with the exception of their followers) regarded them as nutjobs. What makes it so much less likely that they were the real deal vs. Jesus? People also seem to make religious much more symbolic (especially catholics since they have an extremely elaborate hierarchy) than I think it needs to be. If a god does exist, he/she/it certainly isn't found inside the metal and sheetrock of a church. I'd be much more inclined to believe that a god only lives inside of the people who believe. Without their belief, said god ceases to exist. But then again maybe that's just me.

[AzCivic]

you see aliens as a scientific certainty, while there has been NO real proof whether your talking about little microbes or little green men trapped at area51. I feel the same, there's a good chance that something somewhere is out there, however I have no proof, its all just speculation based on probabilty.

the existence of God and the heaven that comes along w/ this belief is also based on probability, which i've talked about before.

so neither one has any hard proof to back up the belief, if there was hard proof then there would be no debate.


back in the time of Jesus the same kind of persecution happened, many called him and his followers crazy, and of course killed and tortured many of them. the difference between Jesus and any other person would be a. Jesus lived w/ out sin b. his teachings weren't weird(like child molestation, slave labor, holding people against their will, etc) and didn't require you to kill yourself. and c. Jesus' coming was foretold these other freaks were not.

I definitly see what your saying about the ornate crap that some people take religion too, especially catholicisim. they're basically putting people up to the status of Jesus, like the stupid Pope. Them and others have corrupted the basic teachings of Jesus and the Bible and they'll be judged, much more harshly than just a person who decided religion isnt for them I might add.

[TriumphRoadster6]

I think it's absolutely CRUCIAL for people to understand that we do NOT, NOT get into heaven by doing good deads or obeying the 10 Commandments. We don't get to heaven by believing there is a God either. Doesn't even Satan believe in God? Rather, we get into heaven by believing that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and that he died on the Cross and rose again in payment for our sins. God cannon look at anything sinful or unclean, thus, without Christ's sacrafice NO ONE would get into heaven. He was the perfect sacrafice, who never sinned, and God accepts the price he paid as our "ticket" into heaven. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that getting into heaven is NOT based on good works (doing good things), but rather praying to God and asking him to forgive you for your sins:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The Law (The 10 Commandments and all the other laws on Deuteronomy) were given to Moses to show that we CAN'T live the perfect life required to get into heaven. That's why they made sacrafices. Rather now, we live under Grace. The grace of Christ who died and rose again for us to be able to have a relationship with God and get into heaven. All that's necessary to become a Christian is to ask God forgiveness for your sins, admit that Christ died and rose again for you, and make Him Lord of you life. What God wants for you is so much greater and more honorable than any pleasure sex, drugs, alchohol, or anything else could bring, and I know this from experience.

Another commonly misinterrpreted thing about the Bible is that Christianity is a religion. It's NOT. Jesus hated religion, and so do I. Religion is defined as a set of rules that must be followed to gain acceptance. Christianity is actually a relationship between you and God, one where you can speak through prayer to him, and he answer prayers.

Some may argue that there isn't a God, but there is scientific evidence for it, but seeing as to how that would make a long post even longer, I'll save it for another time.

Questions/Comments: webbsledge@msn.com

[AzCivic]

I'll piggyback on this awesome post by adding, Christianity is the only "religion" that, as noted above, doesn't require works to get to heaven. all others make you earn your way.

[GT40FIED]

Scientific evidence...proving there's a god. Man...that's so antithetical I scarcely know where to begin, other than by saying I'd sure love to see that "evidence". If you could prove the existence of god then it becomes a fact, not a belief. It's not called "faith" for nothing. It's believing in the face of not knowing. I don't know if there's a god or not...I'm a die-hard agnostic. I think anyone who claims to know for sure is just a foolish sycophant. You can't possibly know what's out there and the fact that anyone would claim to have scientific evidence of god's existence is either trying to sell you something or lying to you and themselves. If you want to believe in god, that's cool. I'm undecided but I'll respect the ideas of others so long as it's within reason. But religion/belief in a god is faith, not fact.

[Wren57]

True faith is believing your beliefs are truths. You can't say "I believe in God but I'm not positive he exists" and claim to have faith at the same time...

[AzCivic]

not to mention he said evidence. there's evidence for evolution, but its still called a theory, as in not accepted as fact. and yes there's plenty of evidence.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Ok, I should have worded my statement differently: I can prove conclusively that human beings did not evolve, and if they didn't evolve, then that requires that there is a God.

[AzCivic]

evolution of apes to humans

if you can believe that, you shouldnt have any trouble believing in miracles, cause it'd take one for that to happen.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
Ok, I should have worded my statement differently: I can prove conclusively that human beings did not evolve, and if they didn't evolve, then that requires that there is a God.

Actually, again, you can't. If it were a scientific certainty, it would move from "theory" to "fact". Why is this premise so hard to grasp? You cannot prove creationism any more than you can prove evolution. I know you think you can prove it, but that's only because you want it to be true so bad that you'll interject it as fact to prove a point. How come there's no one out there bridging the gap? Why isn't anyone saying that "god" created life and that life evolved over time. I tend to lend a bit more creedance to evolution because there are fossils and bones that seem to show a steady change in humanoid beings. Apes to man...I don't know about that. But a human-like early man to modern day human...I don't see how would could NOT expect change over that kind of time.

[AzCivic]

if you're really interested in the evidence that supports a God and Christianity, here's a couple of sites that answer alot of questions people have. the first link is a little better than the second.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

http://www.carm.org/evidence.htm

[GT40FIED]

Right...but that site makes the assumption that the bible is infallible...that all of these questions can be solved by reading it. The flaw there being that the bible was written by people thus making it open to debate as for the voracity of it's claims. In point-counterpoint style, read HERE or perhaps HERE or maybe even HERE . See? links are fun. They can prove whatever you want them to prove if you want to believe enough. Az...I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm certainly not claiming to have any of the answers. I'm simply trying to explain to you what I think is going on from the point of view I've grown up with (and please don't pretend like I'm ignorant to the subject matter...my father was a priest before he left to get married and held a masters in theology. I can hold my own on religious topics with people who see only one side of the coin).

[TriumphRoadster6]

Another book I highly recommend, GT40FIED, is called "In Six Days" by John F. Ashton, Ph. D. He went to 50 scientist, respected in their various fields, and asked them what they thought of evolution, and their evidence to disprove it is EXTREMELY conclusive. After reading that book, I think you'd have to agree that the chances of humans evolving are 0.

And to answer your question, there ARE people saying that God created life and life evolved over time. I don't believe it though, and this to is address in the forementioned book.

If you are indeed an agnostic, you're one of two types: the kind who want to find out more about the beginning of life or the kind who says I don't care, so be it. IMO, being the latter type is rather stupid, and shows you don't care much about yourself or your future. If you are interested, read "In Six Days." If you are fairly intelligent, which I would guess from your use of vocabulary, you'll expecially like it because these are very intelligent people speaking on complicated, scientific and mathematical subjects.

[GT40FIED]

Well...I'm not much of a reader these days. I do, however, have a job at a book store (although I sell music) so maybe I'll flip through it. However, one must refrain from using phrases of absolutes in regards to religion. Since all documents and beliefs of religion are created and held by man, there's no certainty. The main problem I would have with such a book is the same problem I have with watching Fox News. I'm guessing it was written to prove a point and included all of the fact necessary to prove said point. That doesn't invalidate the point...but it makes it highly suspect. If a guy can find 50 scientists who claim they can disprove evolution, I'm sure I'd have no problem finding another 50 to prove it. Answers are easy to find when you hear what you want to hear. I really don't see how the thought of evolution, even in a creationist framework, is so hard to accept for some people. Look no further than the technological advances over the last 100 years...likely more than the sum of our entire ancestry combined. People got smarter and had different ideas. Things changed to better aid the species...that's what evolution is all about.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Look no further than the technological advances over the last 100 years...likely more than the sum of our entire ancestry combined. People got smarter and had different ideas. Things changed to better aid the species...that's what evolution is all about.

But have the people themselves changed over the past 100 years? No, we're exactly the same. In fact, have people changed over the past 3000 years? No, we're exactly the same, except for being a little be taller on average, but that's what I would describe as micro-evolution. I do believe that species adapt to their environment or just change a little bit, such as height, but humans are still humans, and we work the same way. This scenario works for all animals as well. I have yet to hear of a single animal that has changed from one type to another.

[GT40FIED]

Well...to me, whether it's mental or physical, any changes that ensures our advancement as a species would be evolution...micro or macro. According to the good Mr. Webster, evolution would be:

4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species)

Whether it's becoming taller, living longer, or the changing of our mental abilities, I call it the same thing. Sure, humans are still humans at their core, but the ideas we have as humans don't necessarily have much to do with our core traits. On a primal level, we're really no different than any other animals. We eat, sleep, deficate, and procreate. Humans just like to kid themselves that there's a whole lot more to it. Is that likeness a coincidence? Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Right...but that site makes the assumption that the bible is infallible...that all of these questions can be solved by reading it.

i don't think you actually read anything on that site, it doesnt use the bible to answer those questions, it answers them using hard scientific evidence and the relates that to the bible.

[GT40FIED]

Well...I didn't read the entire site, if that's what you mean. Maybe I just didn't read the right articles (which would be difficult since you didn't specify what I should be looking for). I did, however, pick up a few quotes like:

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

and

Ultimately, God’s Word convicts

That last one particularly gets me...since there is no "word of god" lacking the interpretation of a human. Call it whatever you want, but "god" does not have a typewriter or a pen. He didn't actually write any of the things attributed to him. Furthermore, I'm a bit confused as to why there's no "gospel according to Jesus" or "Book of Jesus". You'd think the main character in a story would want to give a first-hand view of things rather than leaving it to other people with the potential to screw it up.

[AzCivic]

my bad, i thought all the FAQ's explained things in the same way, maybe the one you saw did not.

well the belief is that everything in the bible was written by the hand of god through people, like you said, he doesnt have a typewriter so he used people as one.

also everything Jesus was teaching and wanted to get across was in the bible so why would he have to sit down and write it when others can, and did, do it?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
my bad, i thought all the FAQ's explained things in the same way, maybe the one you saw did not.

well the belief is that everything in the bible was written by the hand of god through people, like you said, he doesnt have a typewriter so he used people as one.

also everything Jesus was teaching and wanted to get across was in the bible so why would he have to sit down and write it when others can, and did, do it?

I didn't click the FAQs...I just started clicking on articles. Haha. As for the "Book of Jesus" thing, I understand what you're saying...but don't you think that Jesus, presumably having infinite prescience, would have figured that people would want to hear straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? It's one thing to hear "and Jesus said unto them..." but it'd be a whole different thing if it said "and [b]I[/i] said unto them and here's why...". See the difference?

[Wren57]

If Jesus were to write a book, he would be considered a self-deist, and that has obvious implications.