Need a quick answer

Which is better -

a 4-1 exhaust header

OR

a 4-2-1 header?

- Ddzur

I didn't know the right answer and I didn't want to vote and look like I know nothing so I voted the last one
haha
sorry

[IALuder]

you got to think which do you want more. top end power or low end power. one that help you take off or one that helps you hit higher speeds.

go 4-2-1. get that low end power.

Ok, thanks man. So basically (let me get this straight):

a 4-2-1 gives you more low-end torque (something lacking in Honda motors)

and a 4-1 system gives you higher-end RPM power?

- Dzur

[a96710]

That sounds right.

[IALuder]

yes sir.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

depends on your motor. LS = 421 (because top end is tits, but it has torque) or B16 = 4-1. Make the good stuff better. Trying to make my B16 have torque is like beating a dead horse. Improve on the good stuff.

[pdiggitydogg]

for street use/daily 421

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

4-2-1 has more usable power for a daily driver...

4-2-1

[Shaved &/or Laid]

bah all of you suck.

4-1 4-1 4-1

at least i have two cams !

[ChrisCantSkate]

4-1 dosnt clear on my car... they dont even make one

[AzCivic]

i'd like to see a dyno comparing the two, supposedly the 4-2-1 is better for low end power but i havent seen proof.

[CD5Passion]

^ I agree someone get proof

Thanks for the information...

A 4-2-1 system is on the way, but first is that beautiful new cam setup I'm getting.

- Dzur

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by Shardsofxapril
^ I agree someone get proof

There have been 30+ years of proof.. its a basic TriY header.. I think shelby first used them on the GT350 series.

[IALuder]

^yes sir. the 4-2-1 is best. for any honda i would go 4-2-1. everyone should know that honda lacks low end.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by V8killimports
There have been 30+ years of proof.. its a basic TriY header.. I think shelby first used them on the GT350 series.

yeah cause a v8 and a 1.6ltr 4cyl engine get the same benefits from the same mods.

like i said i'd like to see proof, say if you lose 8hp up top only to gain 1ftlb of torque in the low end, that doesnt sound too good to me. but it improved the low end didnt it. or say if there's hardly a difference at all, i'd want which ever one is cheaper.

i know i didnt notice much of anything when i put the dc sports 4-2-1 on my car.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by AzCivic
yeah cause a v8 and a 1.6ltr 4cyl engine get the same benefits from the same mods.

like i said i'd like to see proof, say if you lose 8hp up top only to gain 1ftlb of torque in the low end, that doesnt sound too good to me. but it improved the low end didnt it. or say if there's hardly a difference at all, i'd want which ever one is cheaper.

i know i didnt notice much of anything when i put the dc sports 4-2-1 on my car.

I am not talking v8 cs blah blah blah.. I am talking airflow dynamics. 421 is a tri y design.

[AzCivic]

ok, and what does a GT350 have to do with what works best on a small displacement engine.

furthermore this is barenone the best header out there for honda's: http://www.exospeed.com/engine/bisimoto.htm

hmm its basically a 4-1 design and yet makes power everywhere.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
ok, and what does a GT350 have to do with what works best on a small displacement engine.

Well...the engine size is irrelevent. What IS relevent is that the theory is the same. Sure, the header primary and collector sizes will be different, but the idea is still the same. The 4-2-1 design will scavenge better and produce a better exhaust wave for better and more even flow on all cylinders regardless of the engine. So yeah...what works on a 289 V8 will work on a 1.6L 4 pot motor...just slightly different.

[AzCivic]

oh god would you v8 fools shut the hell up, your dumb ass pushrod gas guzzlers are not the same as 16v ohc 4 cylinder engines. stop trying to contadict shit when you have no proof as to what these designs do on a honda engine.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
oh god would you v8 fools shut the hell up, your dumb ass pushrod gas guzzlers are not the same as 16v ohc 4 cylinder engines. stop trying to contadict shit when you have no proof as to what these designs do on a honda engine.

Oh forgive me god of the lowly D series engine. I have failed you. Please accept my sacrifice on the altar of candy ass pansy bolt on motors.

Look...I was just saying that the theory is the similar and that...follow me here...in theory the principle is the same. Pushrod, OHC, I4, V8...it's all just engine theory and most engines work in pretty much the same fashion. I guess I am a fool...all those years of engine theory and auto tech classes were just a ridiculous farce. I'm obviously no match for someone whose automotive knowledge is based around a high school tech class, maybe a few books, some driveway tinkering, and pointless online debates. I'm not here to offer you proof...I honestly don't care what your motor will do. I DO, however, know that this design has proven effective on all types of cars with all types of motors with similar (though not identical) results. Also, for your edification, it takes gas to make power so I'm perfectly fine with getting <10 mpg less than you if I can make 3 times as much power. So please, insult the efficiency of my motor...just wait until you hit 600hp to do so.

On a side note: What's with the inferiority complex? I mean...someone disagrees with you and automatically they're a "fool" and you come out guns blazing? My post was not directed as an insult or even at you in particular...merely what I've seen and what I know. You seriously need to stop taking everything everyone says so personally. Otherwise you just come off looking like an asshole. I mean...I'm an asshole...the hours are good and there's no heavy lifting. But I don't run my mouth every chance about random and meaningless shit.

[V8killimports]

Yea azcivic you are missing the point. 4-1 header REGARDLESS of motor = higher velocity flow. The 4-2-1 = lower velocity. Lower velocity will increase lower end and generally decrease high end, while the other does the opposite. Yea I know your motor has VTeck and blah blah blah, but you know what the real ONLY difference between you 1.(does it really matter)L and my 383 is that my motor is about 4 times the size of yours and makes about 5 times the power.

[AzCivic]

oh god lemme waste some time and read this stupid crap and come up with a reply and we can go back and forth till the subject is wore out and no one gives a shit or better yet, dont.

but heres on thing that i accidently let catch my eye.
low velocity = low end power
plug up the exhaust and get mad torque!

[guywithastang]

Originally posted by AzCivic
oh god would you v8 fools shut the hell up, your dumb ass pushrod gas guzzlers are not the same as 16v ohc 4 cylinder engines. stop trying to contadict shit when you have no proof as to what these designs do on a honda engine.

who is it that pees in your cheerios every morning?

[AzCivic]

i'm just tired of saying something than having some v8 driver who thinks they know everything come on here and contradict what i say almost on cue. "ooooh your engine is soo big, you must know all, i could never go out and buy a v8 car and slap some shit on it and pretend to know half as much as you"

[guywithastang]

All engines are the same in basic form and will benifit the same way from the same mods. Longer intake runners will create more torque. free flowing exhaust makes more hp, more restrictive exhaust makes more torque. I really feel offendend sometimes when people automaticaly disregard what someone says because of what they own. Are you going to tell John Force he doesnt know how to drag race because he drives a V8 ford?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
but heres on thing that i accidently let catch my eye.
low velocity = low end power
plug up the exhaust and get mad torque!

Once again...condecend all you want but he's right. It's not about plugging the exhaust...you can free it up a little and still keep a good low end. In fact, most headers made for modern V8s are of the 4-1 design...short or long tube. It's not that they don't benefit from such designs, it's that people have spent so much time working on V8s they've had time to sort of tune the length, tubing diameters, and designs. I4s are, in the grand scheme of things, relatively new to the American performance market so people are still playing catch-up. Maybe instead of dismissing all of us who drive cars with V8s you consider that maybe some of us know our shit. I have yet to see you point out a single reason why a different way works better or why one of us is wrong.

[V8killimports]

And let me add that as you say you don't give a shit, look whos getting all spun up about something so small. Just trying to teach you something.. that's all.

But yes, believe it or not, depending on how your motor is set up, you always need some backpressure. You don't take a stock 302 and slap on dual 4" exhaust because it'll kill your low end. Granted it would be great for high end power, but that is somewhere a stock 302 will never see anyways. These are very simple concepts and actually basic building blocks for power adding. Not really that complex.

[V8killimports]

Originally posted by V8killimports
And let me add that as you say you don't give a shit, look whos getting all spun up about something so small. Just trying to teach you something.. that's all.

But yes, believe it or not, depending on how your motor is set up, you always need some backpressure. You don't take a stock 302 and slap on dual 4" exhaust because it'll kill your low end. Granted it would be great for high end power, but that is somewhere a stock 302 will never see anyways. These are very simple concepts and actually basic building blocks for power adding. Not really that complex.

And I think it's funny that you have a 421 header yourself. BTW stickers don't add hp and neither does a big yellow windshield wiper.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Once again...condecend all you want but he's right. It's not about plugging the exhaust...you can free it up a little and still keep a good low end. In fact, most headers made for modern V8s are of the 4-1 design...short or long tube. It's not that they don't benefit from such designs, it's that people have spent so much time working on V8s they've had time to sort of tune the length, tubing diameters, and designs. I4s are, in the grand scheme of things, relatively new to the American performance market so people are still playing catch-up. Maybe instead of dismissing all of us who drive cars with V8s you consider that maybe some of us know our shit. I have yet to see you point out a single reason why a different way works better or why one of us is wrong.

i've pointed out basically the best header out there for our 1.6ltr engines which is a 4-1 design and makes power all over the rpm range.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by V8killimports
And let me add that as you say you don't give a shit, look whos getting all spun up about something so small. Just trying to teach you something.. that's all.

But yes, believe it or not, depending on how your motor is set up, you always need some backpressure. You don't take a stock 302 and slap on dual 4" exhaust because it'll kill your low end. Granted it would be great for high end power, but that is somewhere a stock 302 will never see anyways. These are very simple concepts and actually basic building blocks for power adding. Not really that complex.

thats nice, thanks for telling me somthing i already know, even the ricers are catching on to this one.

after your "low velocity makes low end power" B.S. i really dont care what you have to say.

newsflash its HIGH velocity AT LOW RPMs that makes low end power.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by V8killimports
And I think it's funny that you have a 421 header yourself. BTW stickers don't add hp and neither does a big yellow windshield wiper.

i think its even funnier that someone who really doesnt know too much and doesnt have any performance crap done to their civic and who doesnt have a 4-2-1 OR a 4-1 aftermarket header is gonna come on here and tell us whats best.

[GT40FIED]

Well someone should tell you what's best since you obviously don't have a fuckin clue man. Please...leave the car stuff to those of us who know. And don't think for a second that just because I don't own a Honda I don't have a clue about their motors. I scarecly know where to begin with your arguement that high flow at low rpms gives you torque. It's called backpressure. High flow at low rpms eliminates backpressure which kills your low end so no, high flow does not equal good low end. Pick up a book...read an article...hell, do something. Just don't start with this keyboard bully shit you seem to be so fond of because it's just plain sad.

[AzCivic]

what, do you think that since you have half the schooling that these retards at Midas do(who cant even put lug nuts on a car with out at least cross threading or over torquing at least a few) that you know all your shit?

GUESS WHAT, your wrong. Show me something ANYTHING that says high velocity of exhaust gasses at low rpms will do anything but help low end power.

[GT40FIED]

So if I slapped some longtube headers on my car with 2" primaries and 4" collectors and get a shitload of flow...by your logic I'll have insane low end torque? Shit...I'd be lucky if the car moved at all. Once again, my job is not to provide you with information...if you had a clue you'd know all of this by now (perhaps you should've picked up a book or read an article as I suggested). And your comparison between myself and a Midas employee is sorely misinformed. Those guys spend 2 years max at a vo-tech. I, on the other hand, am spending 4 years at a REAL college so when I get out I'll be the guy who tells grease monkeys what to do and how to do it. I'm sorry...but you're wrong. You generally are and that's why everyone says you're wrong and you get your panties in a twist. You pollute every thread you post in with misplaced sarcasm, meaningless insults, and personal attacks on people who say nothing personal to you. My original post was simply an agreement with V8...I wasn't saying you were wrong. Now that you've displayed such rampant stupidity I'll say you are wrong, but that's only because you ran your mouth about shit you apparently know little to nothing about.

Back to the topic: Every engine needs specific specs for it's exhaust but the theory is still the same...get the 4-2-1 and you'll be happier with it.

[AzCivic]

omfg, if anyone needs to read some articles it you, god help anyone who has you work on their car.

in all your "education" did you ever go over how to get higher velocity of exhaust gases at lower rpms?


dont tell this guys what header is better, I HAVE THE DAMN THING I WOULD KNOW THAT YOU DONT HARDLY GET SHIT FROM IT!

[GT40FIED]

The reason it hasn't done shit for your car is because to get a noticeable difference you've got have a decent engine to begin with. And actually yes...intake and exhaust velocity were covered in advanced engine diagnostics and performance. Man...if everyone who's got a car that I've worked on is screwed then there's got to be a ton of people out there with problems just waiting to pop up. I work on their car and then 3 years later boom...it breaks down. Fuckin moron.

[AzCivic]

yeah thats it, other header designs actually make power on my engine but this one doesnt because my engine is too small, that makes perfect sense.

very good, you took a class yet you still didnt say how to get higher velocity at low rpms.

probably.