Man...this country drives me crazy

[GT40FIED]

WARNING: This may get a little political but is not in any way, shape, or form meant to incite arguements. Just a free expression of ideas. You've been warned.

Ok...I give up. I can't watch TV anymore. Every twenty minutes there's a "breaking story" about the war that's always something like "hey....we dropped another bomb. Wanna see pics?". This also seems to happen when I'm watching a good show. Watching TV early this morning made me realize something. On local news they talked about local demostrations and referred to anti-war gatherings as "protests" and pro-war gatherings as "patriotic". This got me thinking that, even though I truely believe the "protesters" don't have a clue as to what is really going on in the world and are probably just pissed that they don't have anything to be truely pissed about, what is in essence more patriotic than protest? I'm not for or against any sort of war. I'm more of a reluctant observer. I hate to see people of any sort killed (for the most part) but I fail to see a whole lot of relavent options. BUT I'm sick of people like Michael Moore being labeled as "disgraceful" or "unpatriotic" simply for expressing an opinion opposite to what is actually going on in the world. If being patriotic is blindly following any endeavors this country undertakes whether it be foolish or wise, then f*ck patriotism. Lest we all forget that this country was founded on a basis of protest. Just be happy people don't dump tea into harbors anymore. They just stop bathing, put on some Grateful Dead, stick flowers in their hair, and make picket signs (damnit I hate hippies). So just in case you don't want to live in a world of cognitive dissidance, blatantly altering your reality to suit your mood, I think we all have to accept the fact that whether for or against, some people will have different outlooks on the war than you. Not liking war is not the same as hating America or our troops....it's simply not liking the war. So please, if you see someone labeling these people as such, turn the f*cking channel. All you'll find on TV are right wing assholes (no, there's nothing wrong with being right wing, but when you're THAT far to the right it's obvious you're harboring some deep dark secret. Just look at Rush Limbaugh (sp?). You just know he's done something terrible). Somebody PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one who's noticed all of this.

[nonovurbizniz]

Ya I agree.... except the rightwing media thing... that's fox news only... cnn, msnbc, cbs they're ALL liberal as is most of the major media outlets... be it TV Movies or Newspapers.

The problem is no actual news it's all subliminally scewed to one direction or the other... no even-minded facts type reporting anymore everyone's going for the yanking of heart strings and playing off peoples emotions.

It's a bunch of crap. TV is fun and all but if you take anything you see on it too seriously your not gunna get very far.

where do you get off saying that being patriotic is blindly following the actions of the US....? you sure do stereotype a lot yet you turn the other cheek and ask america to respect everyone's opinions.

watch japanese news...they give information much faster than american news and tell us the truth...they don't hide anything.

[nonovurbizniz]

didn't he say:

"BUT I'm sick of people like Michael Moore being labeled as "disgraceful" or "unpatriotic" simply for expressing an opinion opposite to what is actually going on in the world. If being patriotic is blindly following any endeavors this country undertakes whether it be foolish or wise, then f*ck patriotism. "

Yes he did.

However there will be more than enough time post war to complain about what we did.... Doing so now only hurts the spirits of those fighting.... I'm not saying don't protest.. it's your right... but do so knowing that your HURTING the soldier and his family not the gov... GW could give a rats ass about the protesters or ANY of there opinions... UNITER he says... ha.

[nonovurbizniz]

oh and bbc is the same deal and it's actually available here.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by NOTaminivan
where do you get off saying that being patriotic is blindly following the actions of the US....? you sure do stereotype a lot yet you turn the other cheek and ask america to respect everyone's opinions.

Wow...what a blatant misinterpritation of what I said. I said that IF blindly following is what patriotism means then yada yada yada. Also, I'm not stereotyping necessarily. Those were just cynical jokes, so perhaps you shouldn't take everything in at face value. As for turning the other cheek...no, I don't. I believe that if hit, you should strike back. But you should always respect everyone's opinions so long as they're based on intelligent decisions. You don't have to agree...just accept the fact that someone has a different point of view. Is that better or should I use smaller words?

Now...as for the media...I really do think they're mostly to the right. The few leftist media personalities are whiners like Donohue (who got canceled), Geraldo (does anyone know exactly what his job is?), and Colmes...Hannity's retarded step-brother. I don't subscribe to either side, but saying someone like Bill O'Reilly or Chris Matthews are liberals is like saying that Vladmir Lennon was conservative. I wish I could watch Japanese news...but I don't understand a word of Japanese. As for the BBC...I don't want digital cable. Just another 100 channels of crap I won't watch.

[Racing Rice]

I dont mind the "Protesters" of War aslong as its a peaceful one. But when "Protesters" of War turn violent, thats when I think its completely ignorant..

Like "Stop the war, or we will burn down the US Embessy"

WTF is that about! Are they jealous because they cant be out there fighting too or what? It doesnt make any sense to me..

[blind34_1]

you what I find interesting? these protesters I think failed english. An anti-war protest? so youre protesting anti-war? So your for war? its a double negative, people!

I could go into what I think about all this crap; fake patriotism, media hype and bullcrap, etc. but my class is starting, and thats more important than going around and around in an internet argument.

[nonovurbizniz]

I said that fox was the Rightist station and YES all of there shows headlines graphics and guests are screwed to the right.... that's orielly Chris matthew is on what msnbc? he's kinda a fluke they're even as in they show both sides but there is an underlying leftist theme. It's relatively accepted that the media in general is WAY more scewed to the left not the right.... yes there are right wing media people and stations but they ARE in the minority... they're also much more outspoken...

My biggest problem that there are no american NEWS outlets... they're all Quasi-news... they all put a spin on it... and as far as O'Rielly's "spin free zone" or whatever... I mean come on dude you have a fansy spinning graphic for your "no spin zone"... that IS SPIN....The whole concept of Highlighting the LACK of spin you ARE SPINNING....BASTARDS.... ALL BASTARDS

I've noticed similar problems.

I, for one, am against the current conflict in Iraq and was against the actions in Afghanistan.

Back in the day when I made comments that us bombing Afghanistan was a big mistake and shouldn't be done I was called no less than a terrorist, a terrorist sympathizer, an un-American idiot, the list goes on. All for merely stating that I personally felt that we were doing more harm to America than good. Now how could that possibly be unpatriotic to feel that American leadership is harming the American people?

If you disagree that it's a bad idea, then disagree....but to call me unpatriotic for thinking for myself and call me a terrorist sympathizer for thinking that American will be harmed by it....that's, well, ignorant. Funny though because I tend to believe that most Americans are ignorant.

Of course I've been called unpatriotic for believing that the current conflict in Iraq is also a bad idea....no surprise. Sometimes I'm ashamed to be an American because so many people in this country completely ignore the fundamental principles upon which this country was founded, yet they all seem to think they're the most frikkin American person alive. Not to mention any names....*cough* Bush *cough*. I guess some people just pick the laws that suit their interests and ignore the others.

Peace to those who have and will suffer as a result of all this conflict.

b

[blind34_1]

amen brotha!

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by spoogenet
I've noticed similar problems.

I, for one, am against the current conflict in Iraq and was against the actions in Afghanistan.

Back in the day when I made comments that us bombing Afghanistan was a big mistake and shouldn't be done I was called no less than a terrorist, a terrorist sympathizer, an un-American idiot, the list goes on. All for merely stating that I personally felt that we were doing more harm to America than good. Now how could that possibly be unpatriotic to feel that American leadership is harming the American people?

I got the same thing. Not here, but elsewhere. There's just too many people who can't comprehend the idea of tolerance and individuality. No, you should not tolerate aggression towards you or your community/nation. You should, however, tolerate other's opinions that are contrary to your own. When we were attacked a year and a half ago, I sympathized with those who died but also criticized our government for causing a great deal of the sentiment that breeds hate strong enough to cause the deaths of 3000 innocents. Does that make such an action ok? Absolutely not. But we live in an unacceptably ethnocentric country. We ignore a large majority of the rest of the world and our foreign policies are so ignorant that it's not a huge suprise that people everywhere dislike us as a culture. As Bill Maher said a while back, they hate us because we don't even know why they hate us. I won't play armchair general...I honestly don't see a whole lot of viable alternatives to the main objective of ousting Saddam one way or another. But I'm getting sick of this "say one thing do another" bullshit.

I think when this is all over we should see if we can't get France and Russia kicked out of the UN and the EU. Russia has already stabbed us in the back and France...well...France is just full of cheese eating surrender monkeys. Hell hath no fury like a redneck bumpkin president scorned.

Will someone please tell me what was the initial point of the United States invading Iraq. Like the reason for us to conduct those weapons inspections. Cause I seemed to miss the initial reasoning behind it all.

i'm not going to say i'm for or against the "liberating of iraqi freedom" but i know in my town there were a few protestors i guess and then one lone man ( a veteran) dressed in his fatigues and stood on the opposite side of the street with his sign and now they're is this big thing on friday involving "anti war protestors" and "anti-anti war protestors" ha. anyways....i agree we only see what they want us to see throughout the media, but even that little bit gives us some insight. I can't imagine thinking allowing sadaam to stay in control when he is killing civilians to blame on usa....or chemicals. I think they should show us the videos of the pow's and maybe we'd realize what this regime is capable of. I mean why go into the war and tape everything and then disallow video showing our people.....i don't know....i think it'd make people realize. i can't believe we're drivin on the long road amidst 50 other vehicles and GPS.....it's like...hello the wheels are angled....and....i don't see how we could ever have our guard down to surrendering people then being fired on by'em and now stricter surrendering rules are enforced....i thought why are we trying to be so nice......babble babble

[nonovurbizniz]

The reason we STOPPED iraq from invading Kuwait was it was bad for the region... not exactly a safe or stable climate when you have a dictator who invades a basically army-less nation because of a drilling right dispute.

We never and will never Invade Iraq... we originally DROVE them from kuwait and stopped once they had left... UN sanctions were put in place to prevent him from amassing weapons to do the same or worse again... he has overtly spat in the face of both the american gov. as well as international inspectors and forces.. He CONSTANTLY shoots at our planes while they attempt to maintain the "no fly zone".

This was tolerated during the clinton administration because clinton wanted nothing more than to avoid having his name tied to that mess.

Bush Jr. obviously has some personal feelings on the point plus with the attacks of 9/11 we are forced to stop assuming we are safe in our own country and start identifing and dealing with threats to our safety.

Whether or not we are justified in our action, it is action which IS desperately wanted by at least a small majority of Iraqi's.

And one which I think that NOW STARTED should be left to itself as OUR or ANYONE else's complaints will do nothing more than hurt the morale of our troops... It's not un-american to protest however it is selfish and in WAYS... un patriotic... once our armed forces are engaged we must support the troops. and unforunately that does include not questioning the motives or reasoning of the war.

Imagine a soldier pondering a comment someone made about the bad side of the war instead of concentrating on doing the best possible job protecting themselves and their fellow soldiers.

People have a problem forseeing the repercutions of their actions some times... look at the post up about the guy who was a part of "operation human shield"... I mean here's a kid/guy who's willing to give up his life ALL for something that is in his HEAD... he's protecting people who want him the hell out of there so the US can hurry up and bomb the piss out of them...

Protestors should think more about what they're protesting and WHY... to many people just jump on the alternative bandwagon and protest crap and screw things up which would otherwise HELP the world...

All protestors do is hinder progress one way or the other... For better or for worse.. they don't know what's the best idea or what we should do but they KNOW we shouldn't be doing this or that.....

I'm all for labor protests or any group which actually has a counter plan... but the majority of protestors are just bored kids who have nothing better to do or be mad about so the turn protesting into their pasttime.

I do agree that, whether you agree with the war or not, right now is a time to show solidarity and unity to support the troops. That could be as simple as sitting quietly and disagreeing with what's going on. Protests merely add insult to injury for the men and women of the Services who are risking and/or losing their lives in a hostile land. Home should never be hostile to them, they are merely doing their jobs whether they believe it's right to attack Iraq or not.

But on Saddam shooting at our planes in the no-fly zone.....c'mon now, what do you expect him to do? The US and Britain pretty much self-imposed those no-fly zones that are, quite frankly, a violation of Iraq's sovereignty. Now you may think "but b, Saddam is a dictator and we're protecting his people" but when you get down to it we basically disagree with him and "care about his people." Really Americans don't care about the Iraqi people and the government cares even less about them. Every nation should have its sovereignty protected. The US government doesn't even care about its own people but a 1/4 of the time....why would they care about some other country's?

I would say more but for now I'll just leave it with peace to those who suffer.

b

[nonovurbizniz]

I think people over estimate politicians disconectedness... bush sr is a horrible man and did lots of cut throat things... but if you don't think he felt bad for telling the iraqi people to rise up and then leaving them to saddam's mercy your wrong.... I've seen at least one interview when brought up in a respectfull manner he thought for a second and just started crying... he feels bad. he does care about them and their freedom.... Especially a moral soldier like bush he thinks he's doing "the good book's" work.

Most of the people in gov. are dirty however when something comes along that makes them feel good about themselves they do it. this is one of those things imo. This is about Bush Jr... doing it for whatever his reasons are and I wouldn't DARE to guess and other people making sure it's done right and with a good outcome.

As far as the no fly zone... Saddam AGREED TO IT IN THE CEASE FIRE.....

Thank you people. I am so glad to hear that at least some of you out there are willing to and conceed that it is a good thing to support OUR young men and women in the military risking their lives for what they believe in- their country.

I love u man

Claiming Saddam agreed to it is like saying a confession with a gun to your head is an honest one. What else was the guy gonna do? That doesn't change the fact that one country is ruling a portion of another country.

Anyhoo, I don't really care to get much more into this right now but I do agree with most of what you say about politicians.

I just hope the best for the troops and others.

b

[GT40FIED]

I keep coming back to the idea that Iraq as a country was a mistake. It was formed by the League of Nations after the first world war (which in historical terms is basically yesterday). Before that, the whole area (along with Jordan, Syria, Afghanistan, etc.) was part of the Ottoman (sp?) empire controlled by Ottoman Turks. Instead, they break up the area and put what amount to lines on a map and say "ok...we've got new countries now". But they foolishly sectioned off territories where people didn't get along. Iraq houses different sects of muslims, kurds, and a few other subgroups who don't get along. So it's inception as a whole was a mistake. I guess I keep asking myself if it deserves it's sovereignty. It has constantly violated the basic human rights of it's peoples and proved it's contempt for the rest of the non-Arab world. Now is another war the answer? Who knows? What I do know is that this is a political nightmare...nobody comes out on top. Nobody wins wars...they just kill more than the other guy. Perhaps we should take a note from that old school punk band Crass...Fight war, not wars - destroy power not people. I do, however, agree that "protesters" are insulting our armed service members and if this were WWII they'd be beaten within inches of their lives (perhaps we can still make this happen?).

As for the troops on the ground and in the air and on the ships, I don't think that hardly anyone would say they're against them. I don't think many people actually want to see combat, but they're doing their duties and EVERYONE should respect them for that. You don't have to like the war, but you've gotta respect the sacrifices our men and women are making because if you're reading this it probably isn't a sacrifice you'd like to make.

Nothing quite like what happens when a bunch of ridiculous politicians sit around a big table and start playing "Risk," I mean intelligently think through the problems of the world and make wonderful decisions.

Anytime an outsider draws artificial boundaries there will be future problems. We can't all just get along....

b

[Addict]

With all of this talk of impending war, many of us will encounter "Peace Activists" who will try and convince us that we must refrain from retaliating against the ones who terrorized us all on September 11, 2001, and those nations who support and fund terror. These activists may be alone or in a gathering...most of us don't know how to react to them. When you come upon one of these people, or one of their rallies, here are the proper rules of etiquette:

1. Listen politely while this person explains their views. Strike up a conversation if necessary and look very interested in their ideas. They will tell you how revenge is immoral, and that by attacking the people who did this to us, we will only bring on more violence. They will probably use many arguments, ranging from political to religious to humanitarian.

2. In the middle of their remarks, without any warning, punch them in the face. Hard.

3. When the person gets up off of the ground, they will be very angry and they may try to hit you back... so be careful.

4. Very quickly and calmly remind the person that violence only brings about more violence and remind them of their stance on this matter. Tell them if they are really committed to a nonviolent approach to undeserved attacks, they will turn the other cheek and negotiate a solution. Tell them they must lead by example if they really believe what they are saying.

5. Most of them will think for a moment and then agree that you are correct.

6. As soon as they do that, lash out at them again. Only this time, kick them in the genitals.

7. Repeat steps 2-5 until the desired results are obtained and the idiot realizes how stupid of an argument he/she is making.

8. There is no difference in an individual attacking an unsuspecting victim or a group of terrorists attacking a nation of people. It is unacceptable and must be dealt with. Perhaps at a high cost.

We owe our military a huge debt for what they are about to do for us and our children. We must support them and our leaders at times like these. We have no choice. We either strike back, VERY HARD, or we will keep getting hit in the nose.

Sorry I couldn't resist. Haven't we had enough of these debates?

While it sounds funny, you've got to be a frikkin moron to believe #8.....thus invalidating the entire post.

b

[Addict]

Originally posted by spoogenet
While it sounds funny, you've got to be a frikkin moron to believe #8.....thus invalidating the entire post.

b

Hey I didn't write it... All of it until #8 are good.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by spoogenet
While it sounds funny, you've got to be a frikkin moron to believe #8.....thus invalidating the entire post.

b

Actually, in literal terms the two are pretty much the same, just on different scales. Terrorism almost by it's definition is against unsuspecting individuals. If you were prepared then you probably wouldn't be quite so "terrorized". So, inherently there isn't much of a difference except for the fact that the word "terrorist" has developed it's own seperate meaning. Al Qaeda members are terrorists...but so was David Burkowitz and Hitler and Vlad Tepish. The only difference between terrorists and a lone individual striking another unsuspecting person is that, generally, true terrorism has a sometimes greater psychological connotation than physical threat.

Situation: Someone punches you in the face.

What we can infer:

1. You know exactly who did it, assuming you had your eyes open.
2. Any reasonable bystander/witness who had been around long enough would know exactly who did it.
In other words, incontrovertible proof with stories that corroborate.

Situation: Terrorists blow up WTC.

What we can infer:

1. Someone did it.
But who?

Now I hardly call anything the government has supplied to the public to be incontrovertible proof. Perhaps they have it, but think of it this way....

If you walked on the scene and saw some guy punch another, you'd wonder what's up and maybe even think it's wrong for him to do that. Now what you don't know is what led up to that punch. For all you know it's just a guy returning the punch to another guy who punched him.....or maybe it's the first guy throwing an unprovoked punch?

Now the government hasn't provided us, the public, with the proof for us to truly know what is going on. What I see? I see one guy (US) punching another (other countries). If I were a policeman, I'd be putting handcuffs on the US. The court figures out who's guilty, not the officer.

So what's the difference between terrorists and a guy punching another? Knowledge and understanding of the situation. I don't pretend to know who's guilty and who's not.....so how do you know that we didn't execute innocent people who were "guilty" in the eyes of the government? Bear in mind this is the same government who gets its intelligence from an agency that swore the Chinese embassy was part of a different government......personally, I think that was no mistake, but I don't know.

b