your views

[wheresmylicense]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
But the blame for war where you want, but take away religion and you don't have anything to be radical about. And Christianity is responsible for some of the better ones. Remember the Crusades? Hunders of thousands of people fighting and dying trying to spread Christianity. And hey...what a great idea for a CHILDREN'S crusade. Let's send thousands of children off to die all in the name of god...simply brilliant. Although I suppose that religion is a hard target to blame. Every religion revolves around the same premise...they just can't seem to agree on which diety to worship. Perhaps people have just gotten tired of Christianity's view of god as not a loving and caring god but one that will strike you down and damn you for eternity if you don't believe.

The earth is 12,000 years old....right. That's why there's fossils and things like that. I once put that question to a creationist and he told me that god put those there to trick us. WTF? Is that the kind of god you want? A ****in prankster god? So I suppose if I buy into that it's his fault anyway. In Job the description of what you mentioned is so incredibly vague (like everything else in the bible) that, while it could be a reference to dinosaurs, it could also just be another fairy tale. As for evolution, what doesn't make sense? Is the progression of beings over eons and eons too difficult for you to wrap your mind around? Or is it just coincidence that other animals think and act like us on a base level. All animals have the basic instincts...eat, sleep, deficate, procreate. Humans are the only ones who pretend there's something more to it. We're the only ones pompous and vain enough to believe that we'll live forever. We have religion to blame for that.

Lastly, you have to be an incredibly shallow individual to say that the "correct" way of thinking is to find religion. That's one thing I love about religion...no one will ever consider the possibility that they might be wrong. As for me, I'm agnostic...I won't say one way or another if there is a god because I can't possibly know. So, until the day that god himself appears before me and tells me something only he would know I'll continue to think for myself and not read too much into a book of fables written by man centuries before my time. Ever wonder why there isn't a gospel written by Jesus in the bible? You'd think that the most influential member of a religion might consider that his words were important enough to scribble down. That's what I mean by thinking for myself. By your logic I could read Dianetics by L. Ron Hubbard, believe every word, and still be "correct". With all the thousands of religions in the world they can't all be right and I hope your not arrogant enough to say Christianity is the right one. Remember, Christianity is infinitely divided into it's own little groups that don't even agree with each other. And damnit Mt. Biker...I thought you knew better than that.

fossils... doesn't take much to explain... the fossils are from the animals that either died because the climate was so drastically changed that they couldn't handle it (such as the dinosaurs that are "vaguely" described... wanna know why it's vague? cuz it's irrelevant!) or other animals that died just cuz that's the natural cycle of things. the animals that died before the flood's bones were covered up extremely quickly cuz of the flood and the ones that died afterward died soon enough that the ground was soft and free eunf that the bones sunk/were covered up. fossils aren't just a "trick." whoever told you that isn't really helping.

i'll just give you one example disproving evolution. blood clotting! that's right! that little process that keeps you from DYING every time you cut yourself. it is impossible for a process of so many minute steps to have started off simple, and gotten more complex over the years. it's like a clock. you can't take a gear or a spring out and expect it to run, still. you can't start out with one step of the process, and then work you're way up. it's impossible. the chemical reaction occurs, 35 enzymes must react IMMEDIATELY in cascading order in the correct order. if you enzyme isn't there, it won't work.

lastly, i'm not trying to be "shallow" or "arrogant," im just saying that there are infinite phenomenons that can't be explained by evolution or any other scientific theory, and therefor lead to the idea of a higher being that created everything. i mean, science came up with the idea that the earth is flat... science came up with the idea that that the earth is the center of the universe... for all you know, evolution is some theory (man-made, nevertheless, meaning it's REALLY not perfect) that could be disproved tomorrow.

[wheresmylicense]

something i forgot to mention, if science were 100% correct in all of its theories and such, religion and science would mesh perfectly. we're only having this discussion because science is incorrect in many aspects concerning creation.

[GT40FIED]

Let me explain something children...not once did I claim that 1.) there is no god or 2.) that we weren't "created". My apologies if you took that inferance, I should have been more clear. But, even if we were "created" then you can't possibly deny that we have improved upon the original human model. Whether it be physical or mental (take a look at a homo erectus skull and the tools they used and tell me we haven't come a long way) it's still a little thing I like to call progression or evolution. Here in Kansas a few years ago for a short while they banned the teaching of evolution in school as curriculum and guess what. We became the laughing stock of the country and a good part of Europe. That tells me that, as this country's occupants are overwhelmingly Christian, many Christians buy into this theory. But it's just a theory. Remember, I said I was an agnostic. I don't have the answers and won't clame to but I know what I've seen with my eyes. And, if I'm to interprit the bible correctly, if everything starts with Adam and Eve then we're essentially all inbred products of incestuous relationships. If that doesn't give you trouble sleeping I don't know what will. Also, on a side note, you'd be the distant offspring of someone too stupid to realize not to take fruit from a talking snake. Blood clotting...is that seriously the best you've got? You're talking about millions of years...I think just about anything is possible in that amount of time. I don't doubt that there are quite a few things that are true in the bible...it was written quite a while after jesus died. But finding a tablet mentioned in it doesn't prove that god made workers at the tower of babylon speak in tongues to prevent them from reaching heaven. When you fly on an airline do you see heaven cruising at 35,000 feet? These people threw stones at their own shadows and died of old age and fear at 35...you're gonna take their word for it? And why is it that 2,000 years ago when god spoke to someone it was important enough to put in a big book but today they're usually schizophrenic? Kind of a double standard that spans two millenia, huh? As for faith, you're right. I don't have any. Faith requires following blindly and not asking any questions. Do all of you Roman catholics believe that women shouldn't be allowed to give mass? Do you agree with everything that captain popetastic says? Do you know why priests can't get married...and do you agree with it? Well...question any of the church's edicts and you've lost your faith because if god is truely infallible then all of his laws and rules would be too. Question him and you have doubts, not faith. So either follow blindly like sheep or start to ask questions. Trust me...I had 19 years of prep on this stuff. My father was a priest before he left and got married so I have quite a thorough understanding of religion, especially catholicism so I'm not just talking out of my ass. And my own thoughts are hard to accept since, after my father died, I wasn't sure where he'd end up. It's not that I'm saying you guys are wrong...I don't know. But you shouldn't claim to know either. Nothing in life is absolute. Your brain will interprit everything your senses take it however it wants. Just make sure you don't take it at face value. Everybody needs something to believe but not to follow. There's a big difference.

[wheresmylicense]

you say you have no faith. that's not correct. i believe it takes more faith to believe in what science has to say than religion. not a single part of the bible has been disproved, and within the bible it says that it is to be considered as a whole (nothing added, nothing taken away). that means, you can't pick and choose the stuff you wanna believe in... it takes a lot of faith to believe in what some scientist says, or jump on the bandwagon of evolutionists.... when you sit down in a chair, you have faith that it's going to hold you up and not collapse underneath you. when you start your car in the morning, you have faitht that it's going to take you to the places you need to go thruout the day. this faith is just a little bit deeper, and to tell you the truth, i think that it's easier to have faith in a perfect God than a car that might NOT get you to all the places you need to go.

all of the examples you gave such as incestuous relationships and such... times have changed... of course we came from incestuous relationships, that's going to be true whether you're Christian, Catholic, evolutionist, whatever... as far as the tools that "cave men" used as oposed to tools and instruments of today, it's a lil thing called technology... you know, that thing that makes that brand new computer you just bought obselete and outdated within six months. that's not evolution. progression, yes, but it's all part of that world-wide, materialistic need to make more money. it's called capitalism. tools and machines were invented solely to make more money, and that's still what they're used for today.

i, myself, am Christian, and i'm not saying that makes me wrong or right, but i wouldn't know much about the edicts of Catholicism. Christianity on the other hand doesn't really have edicts like that. it's basically follow God's will and accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

anyway, i just don't think it's even logical for evolution to have taken place. if evolution has/had/is taking place, there would be INFINITE numbers of strange animals and creatures walking around that are halfway between two different creatures... really, the only "in-between" species that have been "accounted for" have probably been synthesised... archaeologists found little bones from a bunch of different animals/creatures/people and put em all together to make a skeleton of a "transitional species"

You know, years ago I swore I would never again participate in this debate. It all boils down to the agnostics giving proof or science and then the christians whipping out their bibles and claiming "faith". Neither side can prove their case to the other. Christians can never give "faith" to an agnostic. And an agnostic can never have enough evidence to convice a christian that there is no god. What does this mean? None of us know jack. No human or animal can claim to know anything. That includes me. I know nothing. But nevertheless, I am somehow possessed to reply to this thread anyway. What follows is my .02, meaningless as it is.

I am going to start off with fossils. That is the first thing that comes to mind. Hopefully someone here has heard of Carbon-14 dating? If not it is a process of measuring the amount of C14 (a slightly radioactive molecule found in all living things) and using its halflife to determine the age of the remnants of a living thing. It is a process based on FACT, not theory. It is based in patterns, unity, consistency. It is always correct. And C14 dating says that a lot of the fossils we have are a HELL of a lot older than 12,000 years. Down comes that theory.

Now for evolution. Do I like the idea that I descended from a monkey? Hell yeah! I am damn proud that my form and functionality is the result of MILLIONS of years of constant improvement. To know that after that long, I am the best thing nature could come up with. That makes me damn proud. And evolution makes perfect sense, if you look into it. Evolution occurs not by design, but rather by abnormality. "Evolutions" are abbherations in the genetic code that turn out to work for the better. That trait is passed on to the offspring of its initial "victim" and eventually, there is a significant number of "mutants" who are actually better off than their kin. Since the creatures with the abbheration are better equipped to survive, the others die out, and the abbheration becomes the normal. Such is evolution. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that in a given process (such as procreation and genetic replication) there will be occasional errors. And if these errors are beneficial, the above will occur. Evolution is very much a reality. So down comes that theory as well.

Now, on to creationism. "But Zach," you say, "no way could the order of the world occur by accident!" Sorry, but not only did it, but that has been replicated as well. Using evidence found in the deeper areas of the earth, scientists were able to recreate the atmosphere of the world when it was just a bunch of space crap that had gotten thrown together when it was caught in the gravity well of a star (our sun). After replicating this atmosphere, the scientists added something simple: a single bolt of lightning, a normality in the turbulent atmosphere of the early earth. This bolt of lightning caused the fusion of certain molecules, which bonded together to form: drum roll please.... Amino Acids! That's right, the building blocks of life as we know it. The amino acids began to combine, and as soon as they did, the scientists shut down the operation completely. You know why? Say it with me agnostics: christian morality. If they had continued the experiment and actually created life, religion world wide would have thrown a fit. It could have caused mass chaos and a bigger outbreak of morality issues than could be worked out by the time our grandchildren retire. But long story short, it is not only possible that life developed on this planet without the presence of a god, but it has been replicated. Down goes theory number 3.

Now for the bible. This is such a patchwork mess it can hardly be used to prove anything. Every other statement is contradicted by another in the same book. The old testament and new testament mesh about as well as a square peg and a round hole. It contradicts itself so often, that most people who use the bible as a defense can be disproven by the bible as well. I am not going to whip out my bible (yes I have one) and start looking up contradictions. I hear them every day, and you should too, if you listen. Down goes that backup.

Moving on: wars. This one goes to both sides. Many, many wars were caused by religion, and millions died because of it. These wars were blatantly endorsed by religions, and many wars still are. However, I believe that the desire to fight is part of intrinsic human nature. Part of our territorialism and predator/scavenger nature in the days of old. Some primitive instincts that just haven't died yet (and one more arguement for evolution). Do I think it is wrong that religion caused wars? Sure. But I think it would have happened anyway, so it isn't really important.

Now, about evolutionists and creationists agreeing on topics. Is that happening? Sure. But it is more christianity coming to its senses and letting go of old, rediculous stories. The catholic church has come out and said that the story of Adam and Eve is just that: a story. It is symbolic of some ideals that their god wanted them to believe and it was written for that purpose. Thousands of years ago, nothing was written down, everything was remembered through stories. Some things were hard to remember, so they were weaved into stories to make them easier. It was hard to remember that god wanted christians not to fall to temptation, but it was easy to remember a story about two naked people in a garden. And so those beliefs were passed down in the story of Adam and Eve. It is not the belief of the catholic church that that actually happened. And so the story falls.

Okay, I have been writing this for an hour and a half, so it is time to close. Is religion a bad thing? Not necessarily. Remember, a lot of people are little more than sheep. Without a reason to be moral, they wouldn't. Back when society was first shaping itself, the incessant question of "why?" still plagued men. Excuse me, humans. So when someone came up with the bright idea, "hey, lets try to stop killing each other and live together for the benefit of all of us!" someone had to ask why. A good answer? "Hmm...because god says so!" It was good enough, so people bought it. As time progresses, it became necessary for more regulations to preserve peace and morality. Once again, people asked "why?". The answer? "Well, the god excuse worked before, I will just try it again." Soon, it developed into a religion, and then into many religions. And voila: things are as they are now.

So is religion bad? Not completely. It provides a reason to be moral to people who need it. But it comes at a cost. That cost is faith. So many people no longer question anything. Someone tells them that there is an invisible man in the sky who loves them so much he will send them to hell to burn forever, and they just accept it. It has gone so far that some people even believe that Elvis is still alive, bigfoot is real, and aliens abduct people daily. Complacency has become inbred into culture. That is a hell of a price to pay for a little order. Maybe it is worth it, who knows. I sure as hell can't say if it is worth it or not. As for me, I would rather have freedom and truth. I am moral because I know that morality is beneficial for all mankind. I don't need a god to tell me to do it, I can do just fine on my own, thank you. And as for faith, I would rather have fact, thank you again. I would rather be able to look at something and say, "Oh, so that is why that works" instead of having to say, "yeah, well I have faith!"

But again, it all boils down to this: "the only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing". Confuscious, I believe. I don't pretend to have the total answer. But there are some things that are order and law in the world, and you can't argue with those. Peace, and remember; open mindedness is the key to learning. And to be open, a mind has to be clear. Don't respond immediately after reading these posts. Let them sink in, think about it. And don't take any of this personally! ESPECIALLY MONOTHEISTS! But also my fellow agnostics. No one here is attacking you, we are just trying to make you think. That is all, just think.

Peace.

[GT40FIED]

Much props for that Zach. Barring someone making a totally idiotic post this will be my last appearance in this thread. I feel like I've been banging my head against a wall for the last couple posts and I think we should let this thread die with the dignity it deserves. My last word to all of the church-goers here: open your mind. I'm more than willing to admit that I may very well be wrong...can you say the same?

[wheresmylicense]

carbon-dating... over all these years that "evolution" has taken place, you think carbon's properties have stayed EXACTLY the same... ? isn't it possible that over the years, carbon changed in properties enuf to throw off this carbon-14 thing?

and just cuz some scientists recreated some atmosphere doesn't mean that it exacted way back when. and until they create life for real, i don't believe they could.

Much props to Zach and GT40FIED.

I used to have a good Christian friend. He always liked debates on issues and basically wanted to convert me, however he wasn't ever forceful about it....so I humored him. He handed me this little pamphlet one day from a Christian "scientist" talking about evolution and why it's not real. A couple pages later I started to realize the fundamental flaw of his argument, and consequently many Christians' arguments, against evolution. Definition.

Now this guy went on and on and on about how evolution can't exist because you don't see frogs hopping around with limbs growing out of their foreheads. But he did say the Bible supports change. He had some quote from somewhere in the Bible where God (actually some guy who claims to be writing God's words) says that He created creatures with the ability to change over time. Now slap me silly and call me your favorite blonde bimbo or tell me that isn't the basic definition of evolution.

This jackass (pardon my insult) defined evolution as spontaneous mutation rather than the painstakingly slow process of slight, and usually unnoticeable in a few lifetimes, change. Humans have been on this planet for a mere blink of an eye in cosmic and evolutionary terms. Think of time as a tangent. When you see a straight line, can you tell me whether it is merely a straight line or if it is part of a circle? You can't tell me the answer without knowing more information. Draw a circle, zoom in billions of times, then tell me if you see a circle or a straight line. We live on the straight line of a circle or arc.

Why do snakes have feet? Yep, that's right, many snakes (if not all, can't remember the amount) actually have the skeletal structures of feet wrapped up within their scales. Now why would a slithering reptile have any need for the bones of feet attached to its skeletal structure if it hadn't been a walking creature at some point?

anyway, i just don't think it's even logical for evolution to have taken place. if evolution has/had/is taking place, there would be INFINITE numbers of strange animals and creatures walking around that are halfway between two different creatures... really, the only "in-between" species that have been "accounted for" have probably been synthesised... archaeologists found little bones from a bunch of different animals/creatures/people and put em all together to make a skeleton of a "transitional species"

Now tihs just tells me you have no understanding of what evolution truly is. Evolution expressly prohibits the INFINITE number of strange animals and creatures walking around that are halfway between two different creatures. Things change slowly over time, they don't just leap partway from one creature to another. There is NO halfway point if you look at today's creatures. They are constantly changing, there is no beginning or end for any specific creature. You can't say "Well here's Monkey A, he's the base model monkey. And here's Monkey B, now as you can see Monkey B has mutated himself to have longer arms, stronger teeth, and a cuter smile. And here's Monkey C, Monkey C has half as cute a smile, half as strong teeth, and half longer arms than Monkey B.....he's still working on becoming a B monkey." That's just ridiculous. The theory of evolution is based upon the principle of advantages and disadvantages. Mutations that are advantageous will propagate through the species while mutations that are disadvantageous will die out. Objects that do NOT have the advantageous mutations will die out as well since the one WITH the advantage will take over.

And technology being the difference between Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens? Haha, you obviously completely ignored the skeletal differences that were specifically mentioned. Has technology changed our skulls?

Science is never 100% correct. In fact, science rejects the very possibility of being 100% correct. You can't make such a claim for religion, can you? Religion is never 100% correct either. I'm not sure that science hasn't disproven things in the Bible, but it also hasn't been able to offer any support for much of it either. And claiming that science has proven portions of the Bible doesn't mean the whole thing is true. Would you say the movie Titanic with Leo was a documentary? Sure it was based upon much fact but had much fiction added as well. Here's a basic scientific princple we can take from mathematics: It only takes 1 failing condition to prove a statement false, whereas it takes ALL true solutions to prove its truthfulness.

b

Very nice, spoogenet.

And wheresmylicense, the answer to your question is Yes. I do believe over millions of years and tons of changes Carbon-14 has not changed. Evolution applies to living creatures with genetic codes. Evolutionary changes occur in that genetic code. Since Carbon-14 has no genetic code, it cannot evolve. So Carbon-14 is the same now as it has always been.

GT40FIED, I understand your frustration. And I appreciate your last posts. They were very well written, and actually it was mostly due to your posts that I even posted mine. It is refreshing to know that there is someone out there with similar views. Keep it real, man.

However, I would love to continue this, if it can be held to a discussion rather than an aurguement. Every monotheist I have had this discussion with gets frustrated, angry, and reduces themselves to petty insults and personal attacks. Barring that we can avoid that here, I think this could be a very healthy discussion.

[wheresmylicense]

well, if i have, or ever do, come off insulting to anyone, i apologize, that's not my aim in this whole issue.

second of all... evolution... if eveloution were true, for a while, there would only be one creature. well, there's been proof of a bunch of different creatures living at the same time way back when (horses, frogs, yadda, yadda). evolution can't create creatures on opposite ends of the spectrum so quickly, and frankly just the thought of a horse coming from the same roots as a frog is a bit unbelievable.

as far as the quote from the bible about creatures being able to change... that's not evolution. it doesn't say "I gave creatures the ability to gradually turn into other creatures" it's talking about the ability creatures have to adapt to their surroundings, so that they don't all day when there's a change in the climate or whatever...

No no no no my man EVOLUTIONIST are agreeing on christians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I watched it once when i was getting ready for work in the morning and saw them agree! The descusion was the big bang theory, the Christian was directly talking to the evolutionist when he asked "what do you think happened when God said let there be light, blam theres light. Or what you guys say bang!" The Evolutionist agreed that was what probably happened and that the facts the Bible does give have been correct and on the mark. But after saying that he was doing some quick backing up by saying the Bible was just a good history book. Hmmmmmm whatever! Lets face the facts we are not decendents of monkeys, atleast i WILL NOT EVER agree w/ that stupid THEORY (yes theory). Bible doesnt go on theory!!! And you want to, why, so you can say youre relitive was a monkey(LOL)!

[GT40FIED]

Ok...I know I recused myself from this but I'm getting the feeling that a lot of you guys denying evolution don't really get the principles of it. Evolution is not a rapid thing. It takes dozens upon dozens (and maybe more) of minute changes over thousands and thousands of years. What most define as mutations could be the next step in evolution if that mutation is one that gives that being an upper hand. If you don't believe that men evolved from monkeys...you're ignoring the obvious possibilities. You think it's a coincidence that we have similar bone structures, facial features, and instinctual traits? Is it possible that it IS just a coincidence? Sure...but we're the only animals on this planet that share these traits. Find me another animal with an opposable thumb. These changes come over thousands of years and anything's possible. Look at humans. Our life span has damn near doubled in the last 150 years. This is largely due to medical advances but it's also in part related to the fact that, as animals, we instinctually try to reproduce with the best possible candidate to pass on the best possible genetic structure. Then your offspring will do the same. But what if somehow there was someone was born with an abnormally strong heart and immune system? That could theoretically give them an upper hand due to longer life and more chances at reproduction. Then their traits would be passed on more than an inferior candidate and thus evolution takes another step (in theory). Evolution isn't as simple as monkey = man. It's a minute process over hundreds of thousands of years. If you simply reject the possibility out and out then you're ignoring a perfectly feasable option. Again...I can't say this enough...it may not be right, but at least open your mind long enough to at least consider the possibility. That's all I ask. If you completely shut out one option then you've given into ignorance and ignorance is NOT bliss. I feel like a broken record, but you folks must at least admit that you might not be right. And, again, I'll never claim to have all the answers but I'll at least take everything into consideration before forming an opinion.

And Lucky...unless you can prove absolutely to me that every single event in the bible actually took place please please please keep your mouth shut. The bible is full of theories and you can't possibly prove them all. Not to say they aren't correct, but until you present me with the evidence please refrain from talking.

How the hell can i actually put all that info on here. Come on, nothing in there (new testament) is false or unprovable. Im not taking up that much of my time in looking all of that up, unless you would actually say, "ok your right!" And im sure that wont happen. There is a quick check, there was something on the internet news on that stone they dug up that has proof of the Bible. This was maybe 3-4 days ago i think, so im sure you could find it easily. Oh, i never said everything was created in a bang, of course it took a very long time for the animals and humans to evolve, or adapt to our surroundings. We were created w/ the ability to evolved into what we are now, bigger badder & smarter! Unlike monkeys which are what they are now...monkeys!!!!!

Okay, first of all: Lucky, lay off the caffeine, man. Caffeine is your friend, but if you abuse it, it abuses you and makes your typing erratic. Settle down, and speak english.

GT40FIED, the arguement of evolution is going to go any farther than it has now. Both sides have become broken records. They try to argue the same things, and we offer the same refutations, only to spawn the same arguements all over again.

I am going to try one more time, to see if I can get you guys to at least consider this. wheresmylicense, long ago, there was only one creature. It was a breed of bacteria, or protozoa. Protozoa, I think. Anyway, since their structure was so simple, each minute change in gentic code produced massive change in form. Thus, since the initial structures were so simple, many different species evolved quickly. As structures became more complex, the changes were more subtle. But it is possible that in each generation, there were several mutations that proved beneficial. And some initial forms weren't exactly not beneficial so in one generation, it is possible that two new species were formed in addition to allowing the procreation of the original. Granted, the different in these species were so subtle as to not be noticed immediately, but there you have it. Evolution was a branching effect, each species splitting into several species as well as some continuing procreation of the orginal. So many species evolved from one initial breed of microscopic organism. Or perhaps those first few strands of amino acids originally formed into several combinations to produce a number of starting organisms. I don't know, I wasn't there. But the point is, that we have real world proof that suggests that evolution did happen.

The bible cannot be used as fact, because it cannot be proven as fact. The bible is a book. Written by men, for men. It is not a guide to creation, life, and the ways of the world. It is just a book. Just as you continue to emphasize that evolution is a theory, you need to realize that the bible is nothing more than that either. Just as we don't have difinitive proof that evolution did occur, neither can you prove that ANY event in the bible actually happened. Or if you can, they were events so historically vague that they could apply to anything. I am not denying that there are some historical references in the bible, I am saying that none of them prove there is a god, or that the developmental process described in the bible actually happened. It is no less of a theory than evolution. And we have more evidence to support evolution than you do from the bible. We have data from hundreds of countries all around the world that didn't colaborate on experiments and all came to the same results. We have real world evidence, fossils, dating methods, and historical records to base our theories of evolution on. You have one book. One. And one that was written 5,000 years ago by the equivelant of cavemen. I would rather say my decendants were monkies than base the theory of my existence on that.

Lastly, from what I can manage to interpret from lucky's post, where he is saying that evolutionists agree with christians, the only thing they agreed on is that there was a central point of the creation of the universe. Comparing the Big Bang to the moment when god said "let there be stuff, and there was stuff." However, that really isn't any kind of agreement, but rather just a parallel belief.

In closing, I am going to reiterate what GT40FIED said. This is a suggestion. Just think about it. Instead of interpreting this as an attack on your beliefs that you must defend yourself from, just consider it. wheresmylicense has brought up some good points, but mixed in with a lot of reiterations. Think about it for a while, and come back with questions or refutations that are derrived from previous statements, instead of repeating things already said. I would really like to see the discussion of evolution and theology go a lot farther, but that won't happen if it gets bogged down in techinicalities or redundancies. Like repeating over and over again that "it is just a theory." News flash boys, everything is just a theory. Your existence is only a theory. And the worst part is, you are the only one that believes that theory.

Peace.

[GT40FIED]

Once again...much props

As for my recusion with the exception of idiotic posts, throw that away since I just saw one. For ANY of you who take the bible at face value...please understand this: it's a ****in story. By proof I mean can you prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus walked on water? Or that he turned water into wine and made one loaf of bread feed dozens of people? Or that, in an age when most men died in their 30's Job lived to 120 solely because he refused to renounce god? Of course you can't. Wanna know why? Because they're parables (look it up...it fits the context exactly). Simple stories that try to illustrate how faith in god will shower you with gifts, and who doesn't want that? Many follow the teachings in the bible not because they truely hold them to be right, but because of greed, vanity, or fear of the unknown. They want to be rewarded in some way for their faith or they want to believe that they are perfect creatures or they want to believe that once they're dead there will be something beyond. Well, we're not perfect creatures, you won't be rewarded for being an idoliter, and as for the afterlife...who knows? And, as is written i nthe bible if I'm to interperit it correctly, god also commited a sin when creating man. It says he created us in his own image. I don't know about you, but that makes either us or him extremely egotistical and vein (remember, vanity is a sin). If it's correct, god is incredibly pompous and vein for making an image of himself or else it's not true and we're just ridiculously arrogant to think that we're molded after a diety. Remember how indians used to explain simple phenomenon with grand stories of spirits and ghosts? Well...the christian difference is that they decided they should write it down. And digging up some tablet doesn't really prove that the sh!t's for real. It just proves that at one point in time there was a tablet. People will read into anything they want. What kills me is that me and Sol have put up with this for quite a while and neither accepted nor renounced what you've said, simply argued an alternative. But many of you still seem to be unable to admit the possibility you could be wrong. Congrats to you...you've upheld the most fundamental principal of christianity...denial.

Oh, and on a seperate note...any of you christian folk ever masturbated? Flip through your bible and you'll find that such an act is a sin second only to murder. So, if that's true, YOU'RE ALL FUCT ANYWAY. Remember, there are only seven cardinal sins, but countless others. Sleep tight.

Hot damn, GT40FIED. Fish in a barrel style. Nicely done.

Originally posted by wheresmylicense
carbon-dating... over all these years that "evolution" has taken place, you think carbon's properties have stayed EXACTLY the same... ? isn't it possible that over the years, carbon changed in properties enuf to throw off this carbon-14 thing?

How do the scientists date the scrolls and other biblical writings? I don't know the answer, but I'd like to know the answer. But chances are the scientists use the same methods to date those kinds of things as they use to date things that go against your ideology.

as far as the quote from the bible about creatures being able to change... that's not evolution. it doesn't say "I gave creatures the ability to gradually turn into other creatures" it's talking about the ability creatures have to adapt to their surroundings, so that they don't all day when there's a change in the climate or whatever...

Does it say that they can change to the climate? Or does it just say they can change? I haven't read enough of the Bible to know, but my guess is that it doesn't specifically lay out what changes can and can't occur. Evolution is simply the slow process of change when you really get down to it. Creatures gradually turning into other creatures is no more than very small adaptations. One creature moves closer and closer to a cold environment and develops an ability to withstand cold while its relatives stayed in a warm environment. Now we've got 2 uniquely identifiable creatures that came from the same roots.

Look at the evolution (or for your sake "change") of people over time by simply comparing the height of European people during the Middle Ages to the height of European people now. Surely you would argue they're all the same creatures, however heights are very different. Walk into an old castle or building in England and chances are you'll bonk your head.

Here's a question for the Creationists. Did God create all the different types of people we have on the Earth today? Was there an Adam and Eve from China, a set from sub-saharan Africa, a set from Europe, and a set from North America (referring to NA Indians)? Or would you care to tell me just how so many different types of peoples have come into existence?

EDIT BELOW:

As a side note, I would like to make it known that I do not disbelieve in a higher being. There is very much in this world that I, and science, have a hard time explaining. I believe in the possibility of a universal truth, but I also believe we will never know IF it exists or WHAT it is if it exists. I don't exactly believe in a god, but I don't deny the possibility of the existence of one. I do not believe in any religion. I do not see why it is so difficult for creationism and evolutionism to both be true. I have a hard time believing in Divine Intervention. Why could not a higher being assemble or create a set of building blocks with the ability to unfold to what we have today? Much like a scientist places things in a petri dish why couldn't a god do the same? I don't claim to have all the answers, the answers I believe in are merely the best answers I have come up with to date. If you can convince me beyond the shadow of a doubt, using rational logic and reasoning with irrefuttable proof or a convincing enough argument, then I will adopt your beliefs as my own. However claiming things such as the New Testament is entirely provable and it's impossible to prove it false is merely a naive statement. Again, it only takes ONE case to prove something false and a TOTAL SOLUTION to prove it true. You must offer me proof until I die that the entire New Testament is provable, I must only offer you one shred of evidence to the contrary to prove you wrong.

I also have a hard time believing that a god who loves his children would damn them to Hell before they ever got a chance to learn of Him. It is my understanding that we are all born sinners, but God is a loving Father by giving us free will to choose to accept or deny His existence, acceptance giving you access to Heaven, denial giving you eternal damnation to Hell. So what of the child who dies during delivery? Is that child damned to Hell as a sinner who never accepted its Father? What of the people in remote areas of the globe who have never been exposed to Christianity? Are they all damned to Hell for not accepting Jesus as their Savior and are damned to Hell with the child who never had a chance? These are all quesitons I asked of my aforementioned Christian friend back in the day....his answer was that they'd go to Hell but God is still a loving Father. I don't know about you, but I have a really really really hard time accepting that as an answer of any moral type from a perfect and loving God. That's evil if you ask me. So what's your answer to the questions?

One problem that I have with many religious people is that they merely accept the religion of their parents without ever questioning their beliefs, yet they are all dead set on being correct. How can you ever know you are correct if you don't ever question the accuracy of your knowledge? How do you know that the Buddhists aren't the correct ones, or Muslims aren't correct? If you've never studied their ideology and "truths" then how can you know yours are right and theirs are wrong. It is a fundamental flaw in the reasoning of religious people that defies my understanding. If you cannot accept the possibility that you are wrong then you are merely a lemming being herded with the masses and are not a thinker, you do not know if you are right, you merely assume the lead lemming knows what's best for you and you will follow him to your grave.

b

yep, i drink way to much caffeine to stay in this talk, sorry for the scatter brain talk!

Good luck!!

[wheresmylicense]

ok, well, first off... everyone stop telling me what evolution is. i just took biology last year; i know dang well what it is.

second, you guys keep sayin it only takes one point to prove something to be false, yadda, yadda, well... i haven't seen a single one of you prove something of the Bible to be untrue, so stop ruling it out.

and about the stories from the Bible, you're right neither I nor anyone else anywhere in the world can prove to you that the stories that you mentioned and even other stories are true. what does it matter? i believe that they, in fact, occured at one point in history. another might believe differently. it doesn't matter; what's being told/taught to us and what we are supposed to get from the story is true.

"And we have more evidence to support evolution than you do from the bible" as so well-put by GT40.... i just had to laugh, i'm sorry. the day you prove to me that that is true, i might believe you. you're probably getting ready to answer back, "i just did by listing off all of those methods of data/observation." they're all man-made. anything man-made is never unfailing. NEVER.

one thing that i'd also like to mention is the Bible has constantly disproved science, but science has yet to disprove the Bible. The Bible says within it not only that the earth is spherical, but also that it rotates on an axis, etc. The Bible was DEFINITELY around when science was saying that the earth was flat, or that it was simply suspended in space. bare in mind, these facts were put in the Bible casually and in terms germane to the time-period in which it was written. they're such a small part of the Bible because they're unimportant to what is trying to be taught.

btw, i don't simply accept and not question my faith or my religion. doesn't what I'm doing right now prove that? you guys are gving me all of this perfectly legitimate "proof" that evolution occured, but given what i've learned, i think Christianity makes more sense. of course, faith is a large portion of the religion, and that's what you guys have a hard time accepting.

GT40- if you could refrain from your judgemental, stereotypical, cynical comments, i'd really appreciate it.

[wheresmylicense]

if i happened to miss one of your guys' points, it's cuz i had to answer a lot of stuff at once (i haven't been on the boards lately), not because i can't refute it. please just reiterate the points that you feel need to be addressed.

Okay, I just spent all night at a LAN party destroying my capacity for intelligent thought, so I will make this short, sweet and to the point.

Originally posted by wheresmylicense


what does it matter? i believe that they, in fact, occured at one point in history. another might believe differently. it doesn't matter; what's being told/taught to us and what we are supposed to get from the story is true.

they're all man-made. anything man-made is never unfailing. NEVER.

of course, faith is a large portion of the religion, and that's what you guys have a hard time accepting.

Game Over. Two logical fallacies in the same post combined with the "exit" word. Faith. As soon as that enters the picture, the discussion is dead. We debate evolution, the bible, etc. and you say "well, I believe it, so there." The discussion can't continue. No one can argue with "I believe it" because it takes truth out of the picture.

That is my problem with monotheism. It is based on paradoxes and logical fallacies. It doesn't matter if every event in the bible happened in history or not. Fallacy is fallacy. Sorry.

In light of an inability for this discussion to continue, I am out. I wish it could have gone farther. Sorry guys.

[/discussion]

BTW, GT40FIED we should talk philosophy sometime. I used to get into huge days long conversations with my friends about philosophy and theology in which we each argued both sides just to see what we could come up with. You sound very knowledgeable and write well. We should do this again sometime. PM me one of these days.

Peace.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by wheresmylicense


"And we have more evidence to support evolution than you do from the bible" as so well-put by GT40.... i just had to laugh, i'm sorry. the day you prove to me that that is true, i might believe you. you're probably getting ready to answer back, "i just did by listing off all of those methods of data/observation." they're all man-made. anything man-made is never unfailing. NEVER.

Just out of curiousity, which posts have you been reading? They obviously weren't mine. Have I ONCE claimed to have the answer to ANYTHING? You've just admitted your own ignorance by saying that if I proved something to you then you "might" believe me. Well...if I proved it conclusively how could you deny me? And, no, I haven't proved anything. I have (insert broken record here) argued an alternative. Jesus tap dancing christ, how many times do I have to say that? Now, this is one paragraph out of a whole post and I'm sure you'll say I took it out of context, but I challenge you to put it IN context. As Sol has so eloquiently put it, once you bring faith into it this becomes an undebateable topic. Christians use that as a failsafe because you can't very well tell someone their opinion is wrong. If I told you that I have faith that the virgin Mary was a hermaphorodite and that's how she had Jesus without ever knowing the touch of a man you can't very well tell me I'm wrong. And hey...that's a much more plausible theory than immaculate conception. It's more likely she got knocked up by Joseph and didn't want to get stoned to death for engaging in premarital sex. As for the bible disproving science...man would I love to see just one instance of that occuring. Listen...I don't know how many times or ways I can say this. I honestly do respect your opinion so long as it's based upon an intelligent decision. Freedom of choice is the only true freedom anyone has. You can forget all of that shit about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (or if you're a John Locke fan, the pursuit of property). Freedom of chocie is the only thing that is truely yours. I haven't once told you "you're wrong" or said that I have the end all to be all answer because guess what...I DON'T. In the grand scheme of things humans know absolutely nothing. There isn't a single thing in your life that isn't 100% subjective to your own reality and nothing is absolutely true. You could say the sky is blue and I can say it's purple and neither one of us is right. All I'm asking you to do is to drop this (ironically) holyer than thou act and just accept the possibility that these things may have occured. I know christians (and most other religions for that matter) support themselves on the premise of being infalible. Well...I hate to be the one to tell ya...but NOTHING is truely infalible. Shit, for all you know god is the one waiting to shove red hot pokers up your ass and satan is the loving caring one. You won't know until you're dead so please don't claim to know now. And once you're dead what are you gonna do, come back and tell me I was wrong? Of course not...you'll be dead. See...that's how religion works. It never gets really good until you're dead and you can't prove or disprove anything. It's like a cheap carnival trick and you all are the carnies. So, for the sake of my sanity and the good of the human race, I'd appreciate it if you at the very least took that to heart.

Hey Sol...where the hell is Rolla, MO? If it's close to KC we should kick it sometime.

Originally posted by GT40FIED

Hey Sol...where the hell is Rolla, MO? If it's close to KC we should kick it sometime.

LMAO! It is a little, run down hick town that just happens to house one of the most reknowned engineering schools in the nation. It is about 2 hours from KC. We should definitely kick it sometime. That would be awesome. Actually, I want to put together an HS meet for some of the guys in MO. But we should probably take this to PMs since it is pretty OT. Damn nice post, btw.

Originally posted by wheresmylicense
ok, well, first off... everyone stop telling me what evolution is. i just took biology last year; i know dang well what it is.

Then surely you'd recognize that evolution is no more than the ability of creatures to adapt to their environment, much as you claim the Bible supports.

second, you guys keep sayin it only takes one point to prove something to be false, yadda, yadda, well... i haven't seen a single one of you prove something of the Bible to be untrue, so stop ruling it out.

I don't rule out the possibility of the Bible being true. I don't believe in much of the stories I hear from the Bible because I consider them to be just that, stories. I give the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" as much for being a factual account of historical events as I give the Bible's stories. I don't consider the Bible a history book by any means, even though it is littered with historical events that are widely recognized as being true. There's a big difference between the word of God and a book based upon historical events and fictitious stories that illustrate principles.

"And we have more evidence to support evolution than you do from the bible" as so well-put by GT40.... i just had to laugh, i'm sorry. the day you prove to me that that is true, i might believe you. you're probably getting ready to answer back, "i just did by listing off all of those methods of data/observation." they're all man-made. anything man-made is never unfailing. NEVER.

The Bible is man-made.

one thing that i'd also like to mention is the Bible has constantly disproved science, but science has yet to disprove the Bible. The Bible says within it not only that the earth is spherical, but also that it rotates on an axis, etc. The Bible was DEFINITELY around when science was saying that the earth was flat, or that it was simply suspended in space. bare in mind, these facts were put in the Bible casually and in terms germane to the time-period in which it was written. they're such a small part of the Bible because they're unimportant to what is trying to be taught.

Scientists were also claiming the Earth was round well before the general populace accepted it as true. Bear in mind, though, that the general populace were people who believed in the Bible. If they followed the Bible, why did they not believe the Earth was spherical? It was well in the BC era that scientists considered the earth as round. When did everybody start reading the Bible (I have non clue)?

Another question: what version of the Bible do you read? All Bibles are not translated equally. That's another problem with reading the Bible. The only way to truly understand what it says is to read the original Hebrew and understand the Hebrew of the time it was written. All languages change with time as do the meanings of their lexicon. It is difficult to truly understand the original author's intentions withough understanding the lexicon of the day it was written. That's no easy task that scholars have struggled with for years and years and they still can't all agree on exactly what it all says.

ah stop harpin on the bible. both science and the bible are produced by man. Both sceince and the bible go hand in hand, just for some reason bible thumpers dont believe this and science is out to prove otherwise.

The bible is a historical representation of what happened durring a certain period of time that none of us were around for. You either take it at face value or you dont, there is no middle ground. not to mention the bible was never ment to be "taken apart" it is meant to be read as "one book" and as such it has a message to tell you, a wealth of knownledge and much wisdom. Both are still theories and by such neither is more correct then the other... full stop end of story. The only proof you will have one way or another is when you die and by then it will be too late.

And this is from a believer too... so dont play that card.

[black95gs-t]

i feel Kraft maccarroni and cheese is better than any of the other "imposters" you find in resturants and at school. if you think about it, Kraft is only like ninety three cents a box. if you go to a resturant, you have to pay at least three dollars just for the maccarroni. if you want cheese thats a dollar extra. then you have to get a drink because noone likes m&c with just water. we all know they overcharge for drinks. thats another dollar and fifty cents. then you have to add a tip, figure roughly a dollar. plus you had to get to that resturant somehow. usually people drive or ride the bus, i won't even get into taxi prices. if you drive, it could cost you another two to fourty dollars for gas and wear and tear depending on distance traveled, what kind of car is being driven, and its condition. then you have the traffic, the speeding tickets, and it always rains. and of course when you get to the resturant, there is always at least a 45 minute wait. then you get a table. 30 minutes later your waitress shows up and asks if you are ready to order. you say yes and order and an hour and a half later you get your food. by the time your food comes out it is all cold and gross so you say something about this. she screams back, "I'VE HAD A REALLY LONG NIGHT! NOW YOU WILL EAT THAT M&C AND YOU WILL ENJOY IT!" to which you reply, "i want to talk to the manager." the manager comes out and hears what you have to say and then talks to the waitress. the next time that you see the manager he is standing behind two police officers with handcuffs telling you to leave the resturant because apparently the waitress said you grabbed her butt without her permission which is sexual assualt in this country. so you stay the night in jail until your lawyer bails you out which cost you four hundred dollars. then you had to get your car from the impound which cost another hundred dollars plus now you have to fix the big gash in your passenger door that they put there. that only costs another fifteen hundred dollars. so because you were too cheap to buy the Kraft M&C the last time you went to the grocery store, you are now out $2146.50, three days of your life, and are now banned from what ever resturant it was that you decided to go to. i won't even begin to tell you about the schools version of M&C if you can call it that. all it takes for Kraft M&C is ninety three cents, a little milk, some butter, 15 minutes and a stove. that is why it is so much better.
J

Originally posted by GirlRacer
Can I get an Amen?

AMEN!

Well said, and I agree!

haha

here's something interesting on heaven and hell taken directly from the bible with a little math involved....

The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26, describing Heaven: Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days. Thus, Heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the Earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (forty-nine) times as much as the Earth does from the sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the moon is 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stephan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation, we have (H/E)4 = 50 where E is the absolute temperature of the Earth, 300 K (27 C). This gives H, the absolute temperature of Heaven, as 798 K (525 C)! (For old-fashioned Americans, that's close to 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit. Your kitchen oven won't get nearly that hot.)
The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed. However, Revelation 21:8 says: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone. A lake of molten brimstone (or sulfur) means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6 C (above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake). We have, then, that Heaven, at 525 C, is hotter than Hell, at less than 445 C.

So who says that the Bible has no accurate and useful scientific data?

[CD5Passion]

im lazy, plus Im in school, why would I want to write an essay?....actually I write stories for fun I may consider, maybe make it on music, seeing as how Im a music junkie (mainly rock) it could be interesting, hah