suggestion on new exhaust

[blind34_1]

I need opinions. My car (90 civic si hatch, 1.6 sohc) needs new exhaust badly. Questions are:

Will headers sound like crap on my car? Dont headers require two exhaust pipes to acheive the purpose of headers? do I not understand what headers are? If not, what brands are good?

Can someone define what a cat-back exhaust is? I just dont know.

I had a new "performance" muffler and chrome tipped pipes put on a while back. Can I still use these parts if I were to get a new system (headers, cat-back, new piping, whatever) or would that not be a good idea?

Is more restriction good or bad? I dont know the diameter of my current pipes, but if I increased the size, does performance increase?

Anything else I'll need to consider...?

thanks guys

Originally posted by blind34_1
I need opinions. My car (90 civic si hatch, 1.6 sohc) needs new exhaust badly. Questions are:

Will headers sound like crap on my car? Dont headers require two exhaust pipes to acheive the purpose of headers? do I not understand what headers are? If not, what brands are good?

Can someone define what a cat-back exhaust is? I just dont know.

I had a new "performance" muffler and chrome tipped pipes put on a while back. Can I still use these parts if I were to get a new system (headers, cat-back, new piping, whatever) or would that not be a good idea?

Is more restriction good or bad? I dont know the diameter of my current pipes, but if I increased the size, does performance increase?

Anything else I'll need to consider...?

thanks guys

A header will change the tone output of your exhaust system, but as for it sounding like crap or not, that's subjective. A header is basically a bunch of tubes that allow the exhaust gases exiting from your engine (when the exhaust valves open) to flow away from the engine compartment and passenger compartment and out through the cat where pollutants are removed and turned into less harmful substances.

When you talk about dual exhausts and headers, you might be thinking of a "V" setup where the cylinders are on opposite sides ... V8, V6, V10, etc. But on a 1.6L D-series Honda engine, all cylinders are in a row, so it's okay to have a single exhaust system.

A cat-back exhaust is just an exhaust system connected to your cat.

You can use your "performance" muffler if you want, but if you're looking for more power, a straight-through muffler would be best. I don't know if yours is or not, though. Just take it to a shop, and tell them you have a muffler and want to use it to make a cat-back exhaust. They'll do the rest for you. Or you could just buy a new straight-through muffler if you don't like the "performance" one, anymore. It's up to you. You could also buy an aftermarket cat-back exhaust from DC Sports, Thermal R&D, etc. It'll cost more than a muffler shop exhaust, though. Make sure to get mandrel bends, too. Unless you're pumping out mad horsepower, it won't really be necessary, but I always suggest it, anyway.

For exhausts, whether custom or from a manufacturer, I always suggest three things:

1) T304 stainless steel ... They'll last a lot longer than aluminum ones and will resist rusting better. They don't have to be shiny and polished, just T304 SS.
2) mandrel-bent piping ... Again, it's not necessary for a car with just basic bolt-ons, but when you're trying to go fast, you need all the horsepower you can get. Plus, it just helps relieve any restrictions in your exhaust system.
3) straight-through muffler ... Also helps get rid of the restrictions in your exhaust system and will generally put out more power than a regular muffler where the piping goes through an "S" shape before exiting out the tip. If you're looking for noise, a straight-through muffler will be pretty loud, depending on how much packing there is. Some examples are the N1 designs (LOUD) and the oval designs used by Borla (loud), DC Sports (mild), and Comptech (mild).

On all-motor Hondas, you generally want to stick to around 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust piping. 2.5" will take away a lot of low-end power and increase the high-end whereas a 2.25" system will increase mid- and high-end power. Either way, you'll lose low-end. Restriction/backpressure is bad, but not enough restriction/backpressure isn't good, either (unless you're talking about turbocharged motors, which then means you want the least amount of backpressure possible). There was a write-up somewhere that explained backpressure in exhaust systems. I'll see if I can find it. It really gave a good explanation on how exhaust gases exit in waves or pulses (since the exhaust valves are obviously not always open but opened and closed continuously) and that you need to match the piping so the waves exit the muffler in the quickest time possible.

Hope this helps somewhat. . . .

a header, is basically your exhaust manifold(fancy term). you benefit from a header. also: ALL OF YOU GUYS WITH 4BANGERS, NEED TO STOP CALLING YOUR HEADER, HEADERS. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE!!! headers come in different types ceramic. or stain-less steel. 4-2-1 or 4-1. there are so many brands available. most popular: DC Sports, greddy, kamikaze(i have these, they have the best dyno #'s fora supercharged engine), airmass, neuspeed.
a cat back exhaust system is basically a exhaust system that starts from your cat. piping, resonator(if there is one), muffler, tip.
if you already have a peformance muffler and tip, just get a header, hi-flo cat, and mandrel bent piping if a muffler shop can do it, if not go ahead and get about a 2.25-2.5 in. piping. if you still have a resonator on your piping, you might want to have that removed. when i first did my exhaust sytem, it consisted of a greddy header, carsound cat, 2.5 in piping with no resonator, and a 5zigen border exhaust. that combo was loud as a mofo. when people say restriction, they mean back pressure. if you are going NA or only have few bolt-ons, you need some back pressure. turbo or any FI cars are better with little or now backpressure.

I agree with everything stated here.. some great advice- seeing as I was looking for the same awhile ago and this is what I came up with too..

Thought I'd add that mandrel bending is where the pipe is bent uniformally the meaning that if you have a2.5" pipe and you bend it it would still be a smooth 2.5 inches at the bend. This allows for the most consistant air flow.

Average muffler shops though, just use crunch type bends where the bend size is just kind of crunched or krinkled at the bend..

Also a question on headers I have 4-1 VS. 4-2-1 what's the difference-- and what's preferred=-- and why??

ripthesystem

for a sohc engine, the best best is a 4-2-1 header. this header provides more low to midrange torque than the 4-1. for a dohc engine, depending on mods and plans of FULL N/A power, the 4-1 is recommended. lots of high end power is capable with the 4-1. caution: there is some loss in low end torque with the 4-1. if in doubt, 4-2-1 is your best bet.

[blind34_1]

Wow, thanks guys! I'm much more clear on the subject now. I'll start talking to my mechanic guy to see if he'll do this for me, at least now I'll know what I'm talking about! thanks again, anyway, continue...

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

I don't mean to confuse the situation, but let me throw this into the mix, for educational purposes only. It's a rough copy 'n' paste from another site I get on...

• Originally posted by BlackDeuceCoupe
  To make a long story short, a Honda CiViC makes 100-HP. Add a DC Sports header and you end up with a 101-HP car that stutters while accelerating, makes a lot of noise, heats up all the delicate electronics under your hood and triggers CEL's [check engine light] constantly. However, you'll think your car is faster. If that's what you want to do, have at it. There's no bragging rights with an OEM manifold.
  
  And, the best header is the one your buds want but can't afford. The worst header to buy is one they don't like...

• Originally posted by BlackDeuceCoupe
  The things I listed above are standard problems with headers. They also crack, bend, rust, peel, rattle, yada yada yada. Are you saying you've never heard of these problems, or simply saying since they didn't happen to you, they don't exist?
  
  In nearly all non-turbo header designs, there is an intent to keep the length of each tube identical. There is a great deal of science around proper header design, but like most other engine design choices - it is an issue of compromise[s]. Sure, the length of the tubes and diameter of the tubes as well as the collector can be varied to optimize torque and HP at different RPM ranges, but NO header design works equally well in ALL RPM ranges. That's why Honda doesn't put tube headers their cars from the factory...
  
  [Yes, I know the 98-spec ITR had a tube header - BDC]
  
  MANY times, after you install an aftermarket header, while doing 'steady-state cruising', say in 3rd gear at 3500 rpm, you will feel the car acting a little 'herky-jerky', e.g stuttering. If you continue accelerating, it stumbles once or twice, clears itself, and then takes off.
  
  [This is the "kick in the pants" ppl often refer to - BDC]
  
  Are you HONESTLY saying this has NEVER happened to you? Truthfully???

Originally posted by Pootie Tang


UGH! I hate it when you do this.. You get people to just cling to what you say, they'll say whatever you say because your posts are rediculous, you go out of your way to make points, you mess with people till they get sick of arguing, then you "win".. People will follow what you say, you know that.. Admit it or not, thats obvious.

There is no way that he didn't gain any power with that header. NO WAY. Like I said, point me to an NA race Honda that has the stock factory manifold. I said in my post that DC doesn't make the best headers, but they make good quailty ones for high prices. (just like all import headers)

That guy saying that he didn't gain anything is just as invalid as some dude saying he got 13hp from one.. If its not on paper, its just hearsay.

There is no way if you're modding your car NA style that you shouldn't get a header. The end.

• Originally posted by BlackDeuceCoupe
  Hold on, little man. It's not "the end." Whatta ya think you're going to do; chew our asses until you've had your fill, then dispatch us with a belch??? Save the playground bullying tactics for your GF...
  
  You're basically saying OUR claims are full of sh!t because "its not on paper" and "its just hearsay", i.e. anecdotal evidence. Then, you turn around and make an unsubstantiated claim that modding a n/a car requires a header. Yet, you didn't produce any "paper" either. What's that all about?
  
  You're just coming into this discussion and flaming everyone 'cause they don't agree with you. That doesn't prove anything except you're a jerk. You don't believe us. Why should we believe you???
  
  Don't run away. Now's YOUR chance. What type of header are you running? Tri-Y? 4-into-1? And, how much HP is it making? Let's see some "paper."

Originally posted by Pootie Tang


UGH.. You're such a dink.

I'm not currently using a header on my B16.. I had one one my old ZC and it gave me 8 whp and no stuttering. What?! You don't believe me? You have to! It says so on the internet! Take my word for it.. This is stupid.. Its just like Listen to me, No, don't listen to him, listen to me!.. Blah, blah blah.

I'm sure there are no Honda dynos out there that show no gain in HP with the addition of a header, especially a DC. Prove me wrong. There is NO WAY you will lose HP with a DC header, you will gain. Did you not read my post about how they increase flow? Can you argue that? I have yet to see you guys show me a Honda race car with the stock mainfold. It doesn't exist. Why? Why the hell would it? The stock manifold is heavy and doesn't flow well enough to assist in making HP. Sorry, thats it.

No BDC, I won't argue with you like a kid on this.. You can win if you want, whatever, you have have one dude agreeing with you.. Go ask the question on ClubSi in the NA Tuners forum and see what they say, I'm sure a number of them will have dynos of their cars with them on, there are some very serious tuners over there. They won't all be like "Oh, I got no HP and stuttering" over there, just because there is no BDC over there to fit in with. Mind you, if one of them who says something like "Oh, they rust a lot..." OR ANYTHING like that you have you know that most of them will all say the same thing.. You know that! Some people just need to make friends.

No, you will not lose HP with a DC header, bottom line. The more mods you have (that the header will work with) the more HP you will gain. (intake, exhaust, cams, etc..)

• Originally posted by Pootie Tang
  
  ... I'm not currently using a header.
  
  ...Take my word for it.
  
  ...This is stupid.
  
  ...you have have one dude agreeing with you.
  
  ...Prove me wrong.

  Okay, here you go. Try to keep up...

  Originally posted by Alaskan98ITR406
  
  My friend put on his 98 Honda Civic 5 Spd:
  A'PEXi GT Header
  EX Catalytic Converter
  A'PEXi N1 Catback Exhaust
  
  Now with these parts on, there is a bad partial throttle studder. Has anyone else here attempted the same thing and got the same results? If so, how do you remedy this?? Any input on the topic would be greatly appreciated. THANKS!

  Originally posted by Boost Pressure
  
  when i put on my headers i got the same problem...... Haven't fixed it yet

  Originally posted by bretx0r
  
  i had the EXACT same problem. I just sold the header and removed the B pipe in waiting for the turbo.

  Originally posted by B16aVtecCivic
  
  drive it into a wall?
  na j/k i had a EX header on my old DX never had any problems

  That's 3:1 with "a bad partial throttle studder" problem. Your turn. PROVE me wrong. Let's see some "paper", Pootie...

• Originally posted by Biff
  
  Regardless of all this mindless drivel, my points on the first page of this post still stand...
  
  BDC believes everything he reads, and he wants us to believe it too.

  Don't YOU believe SCC magazine? How about Dynamic Autosports? How about Dynojet? Are 'we' ALL liars???
  
  
  
  DC Sports gain = 1-1.2 HP @ 2300-5000 RPM, where most of us live, just like I said "on the first page of this post "...
  
  The guy that started this thread is looking for LOW-END power and wants to know if the DC Sports is the best header for his car. I said he will get a 1-HP increase. The dyno says 1.0-1.2 HP on the 'low-end' depending on which DC Sports header he gets. I think I've proven it on "paper" now, as requested, for all to see. Let's see YOUR proof.
  
  Still want to stand by YOUR "drivel"???

  Originally posted by Pootie Tang
  
  I'm sure there are no Honda dynos out there that show no gain in HP with the addition of a header, especially a DC. Prove me wrong.

  Read 'em and weep, troll...
  
  The numbers starting with a '0' mean basically "no gain in HP". The ones starting with a '-' symbol mean less than "no gain in HP", i.e. a horsepower loss, e.g. the OEM exhaust manifold works better.
  
  If that doesn't do it for you, think about this: the Tri-Y "stock heavy ass cast iron ugly piece of shit manifold" makes 1.1 more HP on the 'low-end' than a $900 Mugen JDM 4-1 header. For 900 bones you get 1/10 HP on the 'top-end' and bragging rights...

• 
  
  

• Maybe those Honda engineers aren't so stupid after all...

:

holy shit- I can't believe I read all that

So basically- if you're buying a header- make sure it's a good one(like DC) but understand that nothing is perfect and they can age like everything else.. and that we might not get all the HP that we think we might.. correct?

ripthesystem

[BlackDeuceCoupe]

Originally posted by ripthesystem
holy shit- I can't believe I read all that

So basically- if you're buying a header- make sure it's a good one(like DC) but understand that nothing is perfect and they can age like everything else.. and that we might not get all the HP that we think we might.. correct?

ripthesystem

Exactly [IMHO]!

cool- I got to thinking a bit more about it and I can't say for sure but wouldn't the dyno numbers above change dramtically depending on what other mods the car might have?

I mean if you just put a header on a car that has a stock exhaust you would definately see much less of a gain that one with good 2.5/3" piping and a free flow cat.. and intake would change that too..

just a thought.. everything works together
ripthesystem

sometimes, #'s can also drop. take me for example. i had a stainless steel prototype 1 piece greddy header on my car . i dynoed it and made an okay amount of hp. after an hour, i took off the header and replaced it with my stock header. i was suprised to see i gained some torque in the top end. and the hp was about the same. since then, i bought a kamikaze header. rated to one of the best headers for a supercharged engine. this bolt-on added 3 hp and kept the torque at about the same #.