CAI insulation idea

[Wren57]

Ok guys, hear me out on my idea and gimme feedback. We all know that the colder the air, the denser, the more power. That being said, most cold-air-intakes draw cold air from the wheel-well area, but by the time the air is carried through the aluminum tubing (which is right next to the engine), it becomes hot, reducing density and power. My parents own a company, and part of what they do is spray spage-age insulation on factories, boilers, basically anything that needs it. It completely keeps the two temperatures seperate. Thermal-wrapping of an intake drops temps from around 150 to ambient air-temp, causing a positive increase in performance. This is spray-on insulation, and it sprays on to look like white paint so can be painted over or polished to look original. I am thinking of offering this service for intake/headers/exhaust to make some extra money and help out my fellow enthusiasts unlock a few robbed HP. I was thinking somewhere around $25+ shipping for intake, $50+ shipping for headers and $100+ shipping for cat-back exhaust... let me know what you think, thanks

here is the info on the insulation: http://www.envirorem.com/thermalinsulation.html

[pdiggitydogg]

it would definately work...but I'll stick to the wraps and tapes...shipping on that stuff once is enough...I guess people closer to you and are super anal about temps might do it though.

A good portion of what causes the air to get hot is not the heat from the engine, it is the heat from the air flowing through the tube. The air heats up the intake tube and then that furthers the heating process. Shielding the heat from the engine is one thing, but the intake will still be heated by the air travelling through it. Putting a heat shield on the intake can cause you to not feel the heat when you touch the intake because it's insulated, but that doesn't mean it's not hot on the inside. You also could theoretically make it worse because the air travelling around the intake will not cool it since it's insulated.....of course the cooling effect would only happen when you're going fast enough to get cooler outside air circulating around the engine.

You'd possibly benefit more from coating the inside of the tube than the outside, or just coat them both for maximum effect....or just buy an Iceman. This was the entire idea behind Iceman, an intake tube that did not retain heat. The air would still heat up but the intake wouldn't retain the heat.

b

[Wren57]

Ok Im sorry, but I cant understand that. What makes the air hot is the heat from the air? ... coating the inside is the same as coating the outside, and it would be a major PITA to coat the inside smoothly... the air sucks cold air from the wheel well (away from the engine) and is hot by the time it reaches the manifold... conclusion: air heats up while it is in the tube... question: what heats it up? underhood temperatures from the engine... therefore if we can isolate the intake from the heat of the engine, it will be colder... unless of course the ambient air temp is higher than the under-hood temp

[Addict]

He is right to a certain degree on the intake temp. Though the flow of air doesn't add a great deal of temp increase.

The only problem I see with this idea is...

Typical applications for ceramic-cover are items operating from 350° F to below ambient.

I'm not sure of the exact temp on the exhausts & headers, but I imagine it gets hotter than 350°. The intake idea would be ok though.

[Wren57]

Yeah... *typical applications... such as boilers, pipes, processing machines, etc... should be fine for headers, but I will look into it...

Thought about a heat shield a long ass time ago with my AEM intake. But then said forget it i'd rathr spend my $$$ elsewhere:o

[nonovurbizniz]

I'm sure it'll keep the intake pipe and the air inside cooler but as soon as it enters the intake manifold and passes the tb it'll be just as hot as it would be with a normal cai... the air really heats up in the mani.. before it gets sprayed with fuel.. the best way to get cooler intake air beyond a cai is to get a heat resistant spacer between the head and the intake manifold and to take off the coolant lines running to the tb (only in summer not in cold areas).

The best materials for spacers are phenolic but I don't think there are any companies producing them for honda's though... endyne or hondata sell a jetcoated intake manifold gasket that's supposed to drop temps significantly...

Just remember you gots to add more fuel... the computer should be able to accomadate the increase in density but you never KNOW without a true a/f guage...

Oh.... and what's "spage age"??? jfwy

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Before I paid for something like this, I'd like to see some tests done on current setups. Realtime data logging with a temp sensor at the filter and a sensor at the top of the CAI. I know AEM already has some sort of coating to keep temps down, but I'd like to know how current setups perform first.

[Racing Rice]

Whats the difference between your ceramic coating, and the ceramic coating that already comes on my header?

I would definately want to see before and after Dyno charts.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Would doing the whole cat-back really be beneficial? After the exhaust is down past the cat, does it matter if it lets off heat into the air?

i wouldent think so

[nonovurbizniz]

highlander.... You know companies like jethot and jet coat and nameless others do this all the time right...

as far as for the header/exhaust manifold

Ceramic coating doesn't mean ceramic coating... the different properties from one to the other can make them TOTALLY different.. even the color of the same formula can DRASTICALLY effect the results... black will retain more heat and take longer to disapate the same amount of heat as the same formula in white will...

I think highlander is talking about using this EXCLUSIVELY for the intake pipe not the header/cat...

NO there is NO reason to do the cat back or even the bottom half of the header... if it isn't radiating into the engine bay you could care less about it...


Lastly I wouldn't pay for high temp coating on ANYTHING that wasn't turboed... there's just no need for it... as I said with the intake pipe.. the air will just get hot before it reaches the combustion chamber anyway so a 3-10 degree drop in the 2 foot of intake pipe won't effect much. If I WERE to pay for a high temp coating I'd be sure it was one specifically designed for the automotive industry seeing as how there are already 10-1000 companies that do this already and have lots of satisfied customers behind them.

not to shoot you down but it's pretty pointless... you might as well use some of that ceramic spray paint... I'm sure the effects would be similar.

Originally posted by highlander
Ok Im sorry, but I cant understand that. What makes the air hot is the heat from the air? ... coating the inside is the same as coating the outside, and it would be a major PITA to coat the inside smoothly... the air sucks cold air from the wheel well (away from the engine) and is hot by the time it reaches the manifold... conclusion: air heats up while it is in the tube... question: what heats it up? underhood temperatures from the engine... therefore if we can isolate the intake from the heat of the engine, it will be colder... unless of course the ambient air temp is higher than the under-hood temp

Does anybody know the air velocity of the intake at some fixed RPM, or better yet a chart showing it across the rev band?

Here's a very simple lesson in the dynamics of what is going on:

The air your car sucks in is composed of molecules from various gases as well as things like water vapor or droplets, dust, etc. When gases flow through tubes 2 things happen. One is that the molecules of the gas strike one another, this reaction produces thermal energy. The other is that the gases interact with the sidewalls of the tube and generate heat via friction with that surface (resistance). The faster the air flows the more thermal energy is created.

We can draw upon some electrical knowledge for those who have some. There are two benefits to a smooth intake system. The first benefit that most people think of is volatility of the airflow. The smoother the bore the less impedance (or resistance if you prefer) to the airflow. Lower resistance means higher flow current for the same potential (pressure or vacuum in this case). So by decreasing the flow resistance you either increase the flow current or decrease the pressure drop.....or you help them both a little. The lesser thought of benefit is that by decreasing the flow resistance you also decrease the heat buildup from the flow. A very smooth surface provides less surface area for friction and also provides a less volatile fluid flow meaning fewer molecular collisions for the same air velocity.

Now, completely thermally insulate your intake from your engine bay (difficult to do) and you will find that the intake will still heat up, I'm not exactly sure how much but I can assure you it's noticeable and measurable. You may not notice it if you've wrapped the intake in an insulator for the same reason that a wet hand doesn't freeze to the outside of your freezer when opening the door. By putting a thermal protector on your intake you may notice that it's cooler to the touch and think "wow, this product really worked." But the air is INSIDE the intake, you've gotta feel the internal temperature to know if your air is cooler....

We used to have someone very familiar with fluid dynamics on here who could elaborate much more on this, but I can't recall who it was or if he's still around.

b

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
I'm sure it'll keep the intake pipe and the air inside cooler but as soon as it enters the intake manifold and passes the tb it'll be just as hot as it would be with a normal cai... the air really heats up in the mani.. before it gets sprayed with fuel.. the best way to get cooler intake air beyond a cai is to get a heat resistant spacer between the head and the intake manifold and to take off the coolant lines running to the tb (only in summer not in cold areas).

The best materials for spacers are phenolic but I don't think there are any companies producing them for honda's though... endyne or hondata sell a jetcoated intake manifold gasket that's supposed to drop temps significantly...

Just remember you gots to add more fuel... the computer should be able to accomadate the increase in density but you never KNOW without a true a/f guage...

Oh.... and what's "spage age"??? jfwy

amen to the manifold comment. also you are sucking air in from a gew inces above the asphalt which gets pretty hot in the suumer so no benefits there.

Originally posted by hondaman-iac
amen to the manifold comment. also you are sucking air in from a gew inces above the asphalt which gets pretty hot in the suumer so no benefits there.

It's more than a few inches....but the temp really depends on where you live. Even down here in Tejas I think the air in your engine bay could easily be hotter than the air above the asphalt.....but maybe it's not.

Part of the equation would be how much cooler the air in the engine bay is while the car is moving vs. idling to see the difference in CAI and Short Ram......

b