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Originally Posted by Wren57
Nope, I don't "just know they're lying about something." The sequence of events dating back to the creating of Israel makes perfect logical chronological sense... to me, at least. Another question to you: what war did we start in reaction to 9/11? If you say Afghanistan, I'm going to ask what we have to gain by being in Afghanistan. If you say Iraq, I'm going to point you to a UN resolution that could have been upheld using force regardless of the existance of 9/11. Oh, it was just used to get popular support for a war? Well, it was NEVER a popular war; even before entering Iraq the country was split on whether we should go or not. So, since we can't see eye to eye on the physical evidence, I guess the motive argument can now be addressed.
The only possible motive I can see is that it has led to an expansion of federal and executive powers, but that also is not popular and could've happened without 9/11 due to the SCOTUS being loaded with federalists. Here is where you say "No it couldn't have happened" like you know for sure... well, legally speaking, it still could have happened. If anything, there is going to be a huge backlash against federal power because of all of this... and you don't think that if this is a long-plotted conspiracy, that these conspiracy plotters would think long-term about the political and social consequences?
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To your first question, I actually think of Afghanistan and Iraq as the same war. I look at one as build up to the other. I think we were promised both would be quick and clean..."shock and awe" and whatnot...and both turned out to be miserable. People have pretty much forgotten about Afghanistan these days, but a friend of mine stationed in Iraq said you couldn't pay him enough to transfer to Afghanistan. Yeah, we could have gone into either country without everything that happened...but who would our allies be? I don't even think England would've back us if all we had was a U.N. resolution. I also think both events just fueled the bias and, in many cases, hatred of islam as a whole in this country. I'm not one of those people who go against racial profiling...I mean in the hypothetical if 19 guys hijack planes and do nasty shit with them and they all happen to be arab, I think it's fair to lean on arabs a bit. But people have used islam to justify a lot of things and they've perverted the religion to suit they're needs. Sure, there are people who'll go crazy with religion, but that's true of just about any religion (and that goes double for this country).
As for motive, if it's not war then it's, as you pointed out, expantion of powers or the suspension of civilian rights. True, we could have done it without any fireworks, but it's amazing how compliable people become with a good dose of fear and an even bigger dose of ethnocentrism and nationalism. Suddenly people looked at the PATRIOT Act...arguably the most unpatriotic document ever written...and just accepted it. Hell...some people even supported it and still do, all in the name of the "greater good". Do you really think this would've flown without the fear of terrorism? You think Jonh Q. Dipshit would think it's ok to suspend habeus corpus and tap people's phones without court orders or the presentation of any evidence? I mean essentially it makes the constitution null and void. I honestly don't think any of that could've been accomplished without a severe catalyst.
And Rob...I'm not exactly sure what you have issue with. Are you asking me why different people have different ideas? That's really beyond me. I know you're not used to people having differing opinions, but it really does happen. And yes...I do enjoy belittling religion because it breeds this sort of sheep-like following where "if he said it, it must be true. Ok...well...I don't have any proof at all really, but HE said it".