what hp does the SI baseline at??? i'm pretty sure the Y8 is approximately 107-109.. so according to the graph above the d's baseline compared to the b is not that far apart..

a b16 gets a stock dyno somewhere in the 130-140hp range. i think thats what your asking :confused:

yup...generally i see stock SI baseline at 136HP i believe... so the B aren't that much ahead. if both engines are built up internally then i think the HP/TQ figures are up for grabs.. i don't really think one engine is superior over the other because its stock number is higher..... so basically anything can happen :yes:

he never went to a stock cam. He went to a H22A1 cam. His stock cam was the Type S since it was a type S engine. hello! No I dont have any dynos. Dynos are not what matters its the fastest time down the track. Just ET's, well GTECH ones as far as that goes. The only real ET that he has was after the H22A1 cam was installed. That time he ran at the track I believe it was a 13.5. Ohh yeah that was about a year and a half ago. Not to mention I have driven the car and rode in it countless times. It seemed to make a difference to me anyways. I just dont believe u can tune ALL of the overlap out of a high overlap cam such as a CTR cam, or the Type S cam. Can u prove what u say?

ohh yeah btw your dyno graph proves nothing. That person with the CTR cam installed on boost could not even have cam gears, or he could not even have them tuned right. Truly u need more info for your graph. It is truly incomplete. I can get a turbod B18C1 to beat an turbod H22 on a damn dyno if wanted the GSR to win the test.

whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive.

back to my earlier statement who cares about power OR trap speed if you still lose..

ok i'll ask him and find out. the real point of even posting the dyno was to show cash how "streetable" a d16 is on boost, which by the looks of the graph the d16 is making a crap load of low end power on 12psi with the 15g, on a STOCK D16 bottom end.

i know why u posted it. And I agree with some of what u have said.

I know exactly what ET's consist of, and what the MPH mean. Unfotunately just cuz u make good power on the dyno it doesnt mean u will be fast. For instance the most power on a Dyno say for fuel tuning, and cam tuning may not necissarily be the fastest way down the strip. As a matter of fact alot of times it isnt. Many people who run their car find faster times changing tuning aspects of their car at the strip after it has been dyno tuned. Most people that I know dont change it drastically obviously (just small changes). This is especially true in American muscle cars. So I say again its about being faster down the strip, not what your car does on a piece of paper. Who really cares what a car dynos at. Its what the car can do!
well as far as the ET's goes the car wasnt changed other than the cam. It seemed to make a significant difference, to the butt dyno, and to the GTECH.

Hey B16 guys, take these numbers into consideration.....
http://www.turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=4140
These numbers are basically mild setups and they still don't cost as much as you have spent.

I was trying to get that link forever........unfortunately turbod16 was down for a few days (when i needed it!)

oh yeah i forgot about this. i like the first one, a stock d16 block making 300hp with just the afc hack.

you know what i like about the D is there's a million of 'em out there....one can be had for $300. with a mild turbo setup you can easily run 13s

BTW I think this dyno is a fake, http://www.turbod16.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=623

notice how the torque and horsepower curves dont appear to cross at 5252. It maybe just my eyes (it is very hard to read).

that link says i'm not authorized to access the page... but i think i know what your talkin' about though..

A lot safer, to swap in a B series, I'm imagining nothing could ever go wrong with this motor, its indestructible!!!

I have this thing with dollar to horsepower ratio.

I have to ask, who can really justify spending say $3000.00 for say 40hp gain??? Then gain modest amounts of hp through purchasing bolt ons that include I/H/E creating say a well respected 30hp more for another $1000.00??? (considering you do the swap for $3k and other work yourself)

$3k / 40hp = $75.00 per 1 horsepower --------------------swap
$1k / 30hp = $33.00 per 1 horsepower --------------------bolt ons

Now your out $4,000.00 and gained 70hp @ $57.00 per 1 horsepower -----not really a deal if you think about it.

Then say what everyone says: add a turbo to your B18c and you got mad horsepower.

$3k / 100hp = $30.00 per 1 horsepower -----------------turbo kit for B18c

Now your out $7k and gained 170hp @ $41.00 per 1 horsepower -------still not a deal, but hey you spent $7,000.00 and now have 300 crank horsepower or 255 wheel horsepower.

=============================================
Or keep your D/B series for example purposes I will use the D. Have 130chp or 105whp.

Spend $3,000.000 on a turbo kit and $1000.00 on an exhaust system, fuel pump, oil pump, water pump, fuel filter, new head bolts, and timing belt. (Considering you do the work yourself also)

Turbo kit gaining RELIABLE hp @ 205whp or an actual gain of 100hp
Exhaust bolt on gaining a respectable 10hp.

$3k / 100hp = $30.00 per 1 horsepower -------------turbo kit
$1k / 10hp = $100.00 per 1 horsepower -------------exhaust

Now your out $4k and gained 110hp @ $36.00 per 1 horsepower ------still no deal for $ to hp ratios. However, you spent $4,000.00 and now have 240chp or 210whp.

Now considering you are 80-100 # lighter with the D engine vs. the B engine this almost makes up for that 45whp that you don't gain saving you $3,000.00.

Or use that $3,000.00 to build your block and btm end and put a complete head job on giving you another 100hp. Making your $7,000.00 investment $33.00 per 1 horsepower still being reliable by adding a dual stage boost controller running 12psi daily and 18-20psi when you need it to kick the shit out of that modestly modded B series for the same cost factor.

Could someone justify this to me!!!!!!!!
==============================================

Then you get into the car down time which is a whole other story.

originally stated by ben: "here's the way I look at it... why push your d engine to give you every hp it'll give you when you can just swap it out with a b engine, not work the engine as hard and get the same hp! longer engine life if you swap."

A: true, well not really the same hp as I compared that out for you. But I'll do it again since you didnt quite catch it the first time: 160chp stock B16 + 70hp gain taking you to 230chp or 184whp on $4k. 130chp stock D16y8 + 100 + 10 gain taking you to 240chp or 192whp on the same $4k. Considering you are 80-100 # lighter with the D engine vs. the B engine and have a slight gain of 8 hp or the amount of a good I/H/E put on the B you will most likely kill the B in the end.
You have more hp and less weight, tell me again how exactly you plan to beat the D for the same cost factor...................
==============================================

again originally stated by ben: "yes but for that same 3k I would get a b18c1 (and yes, I see them sell for 3k all the time) I got 102hp in my eg so I'd get about a 83hp gain going with the gsr engine."


This is true, 83hp giving you a total of 185chp or 148whp. Wow, yeha, you gained modest horsepower for $3k. Lets do a comparison for you as well:

$3k / 83hp = $36.00 per 1 horsepower

add I/H/E spending another $1k and adding that same 30hp, giving you a total now of 215chp or 172whp on your B. Now your out the same $4k as my other comparison and $36.00 per 1 horsepower. You still SHOULD change the oil pump, water pump, timing belt, fuel filter with a swap spending another $600.00 taking you to $41.00 per 1 horsepower. This is all assuming you did the swap yourself!!! Did you??? If not I can figure that out for you to, about $800.00 for the entire swap, bringing your total to $5400.00 and changing your power to $ ratio to $48.00 per 1 horsepower.

or

D series stock w/ Turbo kit gaining RELIABLE hp @ 205whp or an actual gain of 100hp
Exhaust (along with all the necessarys) bolt on gaining a respectable 10hp.

==============================================

Or forget about getting the I/H/E as you already spent $3k on your motor swap gaining 83hp giving you this: $36.00 per 1 horsepower. Giving you civic now 180chp or 144whp.

Or comparing to the $3k spent on your B to the $3k spent on the D adding hp to 250chp and 200whp.

Now your B18c1 is @ 144whp and the D16y8 is @ 200whp................D power baby!!!
==============================================

I'll break that down for you:

$4k on the B18c1 gaining 113hp @ a cost of $36.00 per 1 horsepower; 215chp or 172whp
+80# weight gain

$4k on a D16y_ gaining 110hp @ a cost of $36.00 per 1 horsepower; 240chp or 210whp
no weight gain
==============================================

I guess I'm still confused as to where you justified swapping. Please explain..............

^^ now that's argument!!! :yes:

i was actually debating the same thing over the weekend i already have a civic with a b16 that was already swaped from when i bought the car including i/h/e.

I was going to just sell this civic with the b16 or think about keeping it so i will probably keep it and just add the greddy turbo kit.

The other option is to just turbo the d16 engine...but since i already have a b16 i might as well just turbo it a little.

b16 is definately a better engine to turbo. If u already have the B16 in there, there is no point in putting the D16 back in there. Besides the B16 will handle more boost than a stock D will anyways. the D series will handle about 200 horsepower stock, and the B series engines will handle about 300 (a few exceptions to both obviously).

Oh ya def - plus the B16's high rev ability will be enhanced by all the torque y0

well i wasnt going to put the d16 back but i was going to sell the car make some money then buy another civic with the stock d16 and just turbo it. Either way would be good.

why? The B16 is a better motor than a D16.

yeh its a good motor......i would probably just do it for the heck of it...and the greddy turbo kit for the d16 is cheaper than the b16 version..im pretty sure im going to keep it though im happy with it overall.

A friend of mine has a supra that just ran a 10.4 in the quarter with a Greddy T66 unit. He now gets all the Greddy goodies at mad low prices - he said he could get me the parts i need from them for around 1k . . .

what's your friends name? i need to talk to him..

Ha - its funney, all these morons wanna talk to him cause he has 3 sick cars - a 91 Supra (10.4) Turbo Beetle (14.1) and a 96 Turbo Supra (11.6 @ 130) - i know the trap time for the 11.6 is high, but its because the car had stock rims, tires, and suspension and he couldnt get traction.

I know this guy threw the place where i Kickbox at - so i got an IN lol.

This is why you should swap your Dseries.

This is a dyno sheet of a D16Z6 with AEM Cai, Chikara header, and a custom 2.5in exhaust.

http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/at...chmentid=21685

Here is a dynosheet for a B16A Sir I (the 160hp ver) with high flow cat, DC headers, Apexi ws, and AEM Cai.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr...cc_civicengine *** Scroll down the page and Click the 3rd dynosheet located between the Intake and Header pics.

without forced induction theyre both slow

Yes, but one is much slower than the other . . . .

but yes, i too have come to the realization that the only way to have a honda that is also a monster, you need nawz or b00st.

I agree with this statement in one way, it is slower. However it starts out slower so what is the comparison? Might as well stayed stock on both and showed that.

Swap = $4k gaining 60hp B16a = 160whp

same on a D = $4k gaining about 130hp D16y8 = 210whp

i dont know what place youre looking at where a b16 costs $4k...

. . . . . . . . . . . . well, if ur me lol




(not talkin about that)

Its just numbers. Yeah, your right, that included a I/H/E in my figures, its still kinda steep, however w/ all installed it would be around that figure. I just kinda threw that out there in case someone wanted a to compare any B, sorry for the retardism.
I could also put a custom turbo kit on a D for like $1k and get that same hp so that was just a number also.

fuck yeah, thats what I'm talking about, give that guy props for tuning a D to kick ass numbers.

that's unbelieveable..... 16.5 with STOCK INTERNALS....:shocking:

okkk. Here is the final say to end all arguments here.
U can either turbo this anemic looking engine....

or u can go with this beast (minus the dirty valve cover of course)

i like a/c

hey man u can have a/c on an H22'd Civic. People have done it on H-T. It can be done. I was more joking than serious. Everyone has different ideas and tastes. I definately respect some D series builders (cuz I gave up a long time ago on that engine). I have seen some very fast D's. Definately faster than I thought they were capable of. As a matter of fact I saw an all-motor low 13 second D in a hatch the other day. Yes this car was a street car. Definately impressive for the D. Its just not for me man.

yeah you can do it and keep a/c but you have to start doing even more custom stuff.

has anyone found out how to keep a/c and powersteering w/ the h22 swap?

according to the people on H-T u can. I read about it I just wasnt really all that interested in it. It robs too much power for me :) It depends on the mounts u use. Also not many people know alot about the EK/EJ Civics. U see the thing is in the EK/EJ Civics the mounts are different and it mounts the engine in the bay differently than an EG Civic. In the EK/EJ they may even fit on stock locations with the HASPORT mounts, I dont know, I would have to look into that one. As far as EG Civics goes I know the HCP mounts actually mount the H22 farther back than the Hasport mounts. Hasports claim their mounts are engineered properly for axle placement. Although i havent heard anyone who has had any problems with the HCP mounts at all. I know it gives more clearance in the front using HCP mounts. I think HCP claims that u can have power steering and A/C with their mounts, dont quote me on that one (i never really looked into it). On the EG chassis with hasport mounts I know the A/C would have to be hooked up with custom brackets. The power steering from what I have heard will work in factory location. Hope I helped. This is something I never really researched all that much.

DO you guys think it would be useless to turbo a D15? I get a lot of "yes you can's" and "no you shouldnt's"...I've been contemplating an engine swap but if I don't have to then I won't...

depends on what your expectations are
of course you CAN
it will really wake the car up and you will be very happy with it (at least for a while...depending on the kind of person you are)

D's are fine engines. If youre not looking for 300whp its fine.

What if I were looking to get 300whp?? Engine swap? I guess that's what I would end up doing after reading some of these posts...

Ive seen that much out of a d series...but its a huge ordeal
gsr and h22 w/ turbo see 300 easy and ls and b16 can w/ a minor build

WHat's gsr and H22...are those the types of engines offered?

gsr - b18c1 - mid-end integra engine
h22 - prelude engine

And those are pretty much the ones to get?

depends on what your looking for. Right now you have a 1.5L engine the gsr would give you a 1.8L and the H22 would give you a 2.2L (Im pretty sure thats right about the gsr/h22) and as the saying goes theres no replacement for displacement which basicly means the bigger the motor you have the more power you can make overall but it will end up costing you more in the end. No one way is best its all depending on what you want/"need"/are looking for as well as how much you want to spend/how much you have etc