By that do you mean millions?

Uh no. Nice try though :crazy:

They're in the same class by the rules set forth by the governing body. Just because he's running an 87 style platform doesn't mean he's running an '87 engine.

Name: Tom Fujita
Team: Team Portflow
Class: All Motor
Hometown: Carson, Calif.
Birthdate: Nov.12, 1964
Car: 1984 Honda CRX
Engine: B18A DOHC VTEC

Now I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the class that these 2 are running in are dohc all motor classes under 2.5l


Well, in that case John Force has us all beat. That's why there are classes. I love how some of you Honda guys love to throw distractions around as cannon fodder when someone like myself post up these results as a bit of a reality check. One reason 4thgen why they even have classes is to keep the technology progressing for any given avenue of automotive aftermarket. (i.e. the sport compact market) see these guys are real drag racers in the real world. None of these ricer math people with mostly hand me down cars from mom and dad doing ricer fly bys. The reason I even came into this forum (other than a bit of fun by distributing in a mostly respectful way, some factual tidbits of information) is just to see where a certain discussion would take me. Now I never said that Honda was crap, I just see a whole lot of Honda people at the track that I run at, running sub 20 second 1/4 miles thinking they're the baddest people in the world. I'm just a sucker for heated debate :yes: :wave:

SOOOOOOOOO what are you trying to prove? That gay looking neons can be fast? Anyone who's in the sport compact scene knows that any car can be made fast.

Nope, I've just proven that most Honda people resort to calling another car gay or another car *insert pre-pubecent insult here*

Actually you've proved that you have nothing better to do than go into a Honda forum and start shit.
I'm not calling your car gay, it IS gay. No self respecting man would drive one.

ROFL okay whatever, if you say so. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Oh and btw, what is a Civic Exa?

A Civic that came with all wheel disc brakes and ABS.

oh cool. :rambo:

Plastic covers. Not plastic critical parts. Just a note.

Okay, let's run off of your logic, addict. Those plastic covers, what do they do? Dress up the engine bay? Make it look pretty? The intake manifold does nothing but direct filtered air (preferably cool air) into the combustion chamber. It doesn't have to be an alloy. Although one thing does puzzle me about most FWD traverse mounted I4's. Why is the exhaust manifold in the front of the engine? When someone does an upgrade to an engine, the idea is to make the engine work less to expel exhaust gasses right? So with the design of (I think) all Honda fwd traverse mounted engines, the exhaust manifold comes out of the front of the engine and then goes underneath the block. This is (IMAO) a poor design. I then saw Tom Fujitas Civic with a tube frame and oh look, they mounted the engine longitude. That's not how they come from the factory (mount wise) I wonder how that made the transmission work, or did that have to be custom made too? Now look at the Scott Mohler car that is now using a stock 3 speed neon automatic transmission with nothing changed but a high stall torque converter. Oh that's right, Honda people don't like the word torque. It's something they don't know and understand. It's also something that most Hondas don't have (e.g. Civic Si 160hp and 111 ft. lbs. torque) If anyone can spin a motor fast enough, the hp numbers can be manipulated. Torque is the best determination of how well an engine performs overall. For example. A Ford powerstroke V8 diesel has higher a higher horsepower rating than a Dodge Cummins I6 diesel. Why? The powerstroke spins faster and has a larger displacement 7.3l to 5.9l But when you look on the road to see whats actually pulling more. It's Cummins I6's Why? Better delivery of torque. If you say this example doesn't apply to the compact segment, I'm sorry, you're truly mistaken. Torque (don't forget traction) is what gets you out of the hole in a launch. 90% of most races in a professional setting are lost and won in the first 330 feet.

The covers protect the engine and make it look pretty. Nothing worng with that. You don't think an intake manifold is critical then? Dunno about Neons, but Civics have a throttle body mounted to it. I don't want that on a piece of plastic. Not to mention if you ever decided to go direct port nitrous, you'd be tapping into plastic for your nozzles. Not good.
Kinda funny how you seem to drift from on topic to another.:D I doubt theres a huge difference in having the exhaust manifold in the front or in the rear. Not gonna argue with you on it becuase I don't have solid proof.
Lol. You apprently didn't look under my name. Lemme quote it for you "Torque? What's that?". Yeah I know Hondas are notorious for low torque. That's not to say that they are slow though. Granted torque gets you off the line, but somewhere down that line you need the HP.
Bah. Who cares about trucks. I wouldn't be caight dead in either of those diesel monsters. Just my preference though. Now maybe the new Dodge SRT that has the Viper's motor. But that's a different class of truck.

Well first off it's not plastic, it's a composite, just as strong as an alloy but lighter. And if you do go nitrous, then the nozzles can be mounted just about anywhere. Trust me, I've seen some wacky combinations. And your comment about the torque, at least you have enough knowledge to agree that torque gets you out of the hole, however, by the time your hp catches up, the 1320 is already over. An intake manifold isn't terribly critical for everyday driving, that's why the R/T and ACR neons have an aluminum one (as shown) and all the DOHC neons for the 1st gen have them as well, for higher performance, and someone is more likely to modify an ACR or R/T then say an ES neon. Even some of the early SOHC neons came with a cast aluminum manifold. And the neons as well have the throttle body attached to the manifold. The manifold doesn't move, why would it be critical then? Need proof that the exhaust manifold in front is not a wonderful idea? Imagine an engine as an air pump. The more efficiently air is inducted, then expelled, the more power you can create. So in looking at a Honda engine, the exhaust is in the front, this makes the expelled gasses have to travel farther and with more bends. More bends, slow the air down creating additional backpressure. Too much backpressure is a bad thing, too little is also bad. Another point. The catalytic converter is located very close to the intake system on a Honda, that means hotter air, and as we all know, Cooler air combusts better. Neon: air is taken in at the front, the intake manifold is also at the front, and the exhaust is to the rear. This is one of the many reasons the 420a is a better design then a good majority of Honda engines that are powerplants in the same classes. It's just logic. Think about it :yes: Oh and as far as drifting from one topic to another, I use examples to back up what I state as opposed to letting emotion control what I state. *car* is gay! okay I feel better now.

Ill tell you whats gay.. Arguing about a bunch of economy cars.. Thats whats the gayest thing in this thread.

I say if you have something to prove take it to the track and stop posting stupid sh!t.

Any Sport Compact can be made fast. For god sakes Ive seen a Festiva run low 13s.. Cant we all just get along? Sport Compact is a sport that should be enjoyable. Im so tired of hear hondas are faster the Dodges, V8s are faster then 4 Cylinders.

Lets face it there will always be someone out there thats faster then you or me. :rolleyes:

Its usually the person with the newest technology and the most money to put into it.:o

Well not true. I stated direct port nitrous. The nozzles are mounted into the intake runners themselves.


Plastic also retains heat better than metals. Meaning the intake charge will be hotter.
The intake manifold itself doesn't move. The engine does. Granted the composite is probably strong enough to take the jolts.
Still not buying it. The cat is not located near the intake on Civics.

The intake very far from the cat. The cat is located around underneath the floorboards.

i about fell out of my chair on that one. you think the 420a is better than a b-serise or h-serise? befor i comment i want your answer

By that I mean power producers. Higher HP/Torque. It's well known that Honda makes a reliable engine, that's not the discussion, the discussion is power. Yes, I think that the 420a can generate more power than a b series engine.

That's never a good argument. With money any engine can produce alot of power.

How/can i close this thread or lock it??

You have to be a moderator...why do you want it closed/locked??

btw, I see you started this thread, if you want it closed, I'll close it for you........just let me know.

just FYI someone i talk to in VA has a friend that has a b16 hatch with 512fwhp and is street driven, full interior and ran a 11.3 with 305fwhp

You can't. You can unsubscribe to it in the User CP to prevent being notfied of new posts.


ps - this thread is fine. There's no name calling. Just debating.

Okay here's the classic Honda statement *a bit exxagerated but you get the picture*



I think we can dismiss the first quote. Unless you can back it up with an article in print, or a reputable website then I don't want to hear about it. It's the equivelent to ricer math. Oh and Uhm which is it. 512fwhp or 305? and if he's running 512 and can only muster an 11 second 1320, then something's horribly wrong. Oh and how much nitrous is the dude running? Next?

Yep and a heated debate it is ;)

So then EVERYTHING you have stated is not factual? Hmm. Way to shoot yourself down.:yes:

What have I not backed up with articles or reputable websites?

I think that's all.

I wasn't calling you out on that stuff. You said it yourself. Not me.

hahahaahahah the examples you've chosen, LOL. Make it stop ;) you're making my sides hurt.


Look carefully at what you've quoted. You beleive the world is flat too huh? It's called logical fact, prove me wrong there Civic Addict. ;) :crazy: :bow:

i'll see if i can get a dyno plot for ya, and i said the 11.3 was with 305hp. classic typical honda statment? your doing the same thing i am, but its ok that you do it. lets stay on a level playing field here. i want dyno plots for EVERYTHING you stated if your calling mine BS. want me to get

how about this for a non-vtec h23 motor?

Engine Modifications

H23A (non-VTEC)
Fully built motor

Custom Turbonetics 62-1 turbocharger (polished)

JE oversize pistons
Saenz connecting rods
Speed Sport Racing ductile iron sleeves
Blueprinted and balancing bottom end
Balancing shafts removed
Custom exhaust manifold and 3" mandrel bent downpipe

JG engine dynamics oversize stainless steel valves with titanium retainers
Speed Sport Racing turbo-grind camshafts
Speed Sport Racing throttle body
Custom head porting and polishing

Hondata engine management system (Stage 4B)
RC injectors - 720 cc/min
MSD 6AL ignition w/ MSD HVC coil
AEM pulleys
Holley in-tank and in-line fuel pumps

ACT clutch kit
SSR 3" mandrel bent stainless steel exhaust with Apexi turbo N1 muffler
Powerslot rotors with Hawk pads

Apexi GTR intercooler with custom endtanks & intercooler piping
Greddy Type-R Blow-off valve
Turbonetics Racegate wastegate
Guyon Racing twin pass, 2 core aluminum radiator
FAL fan, etc.

Performance to date on current setup (Sept 2002)

Dyno tested at 22-24lbs of boost on a Mustang MD250 Chassis Dyno:
491.2 wheel hp @ 7000rpm and 401.4 ft/lb torque @ 5900rpm

(DynoJet values expected - 530.5 - 550.1 whp & 433.5 - 449.6 ft-lbs torque)
(Flywheel expected values - >650 hp & 550ft-lbs torque)

Best E.T. = 12.3 @ 109mph
Best mph = 12.5 @ 118mph

Both runs were at 17psi & 3700feet (full interior)

thats an all show all go prelude. wieghing in over 3000 lbs. with less psi it is around 75-80hp less, and 3700feet KILLS times. 10 second prelude, but he has no LSD and cannot get traction for anything. this is probobly rice math though.

I'm not wasting any time on something you brought up. I have nothing to prove to you or any of the other Honda owners here.

Once again, you said it not me.

And with all that only a 12.3 Even if you were to empty that car, you'd maybe only pick up 4 tenths of a second off the e.t.

Let's see, read this http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/news/070701.html
and umm....this
which is located here http://www.dragracingonline.com/race.../idrc_8_1.html
And this
http://www.dragracing.com/sco/driver...?DriverId=1123

I'm compiling a list of engine modifications which I'll have by the time I get home from work tonight. Notice that there isn't any turbo or n2o and it's all motor :yes: :crazy: hehe
Granted this is all in good fun, I'm having fun are you?

Yeah I'm suprised he doesn't run faster than a 12.3. His trap speeds seem low for that many mods. Dunno. I'm not a turbo expert though.

http://www.zex.com/Gallery/MMP_4_06_02/
12.8 Civic Hatch.....
Go nitrous! :bandit:

Yeah..... I enjoy a decent debate. Now that people stopped calling names......

yeah, 12.3 is very slow for that, and the guy even admits that, it is traction. he cannot launch the thing without better drag slicks and a LSD. he will sit there and just smoke the tires

as long as this is in good fun, i'll have fun with you:bandit:

oh, one more thing, 3700 feet will take almost a second off your time. ask people who goto LARC with turbo cars, the air is real thin that high up. if that was down here in florida, on a nice day, we'd see low 11 second passes how the car was set up with 17psi. 24psi would be crazy.

3700 altitude does take off several tenths off of your e.t. however to lose a full second, given all the other conditions are similar (like air temperature, humidity percentage,barometric pressure, and track surface temperature) if I remember correctly you have to be at about 4600 ft above sea level. Interesting side note on altitude. In Florida their sea level is a bit lower then the sea level say in California. The Pacific ocean is higher (not sure by how much) than the Atlantic. That's one reason the Homestead motorsports complex (Nascar) sets alot of records for speed. The air there is a bit denser. Do you race at Bradenton?

Listen, that composite junk you are showing me pics of is only used because it is cheep make, and light. There is no way that is gonna be as durable or safe as a metal intake manifold.

AND by the way, I have raced many Neons, and they have all lost badly.

When a person does not believe something is true, they are not obligated to prove that.
EXAMPLE:
Let's put it this way, i do not believe in Aliens. If you do believe in Aliens, prove it to me.

Why are you in this forum anyway? Why dont you go make Neonstyle.com and make fun of honda's. (im sure your site will have some awsome tech threads about how to replace plastic intake manifolds.)

take it easy dude. he is making some points here, although he sees all hondas only altezzas and 6 foot triple deckers wings.

well with my job i got to drive a lot of neons (don't ask me about trim levels) and they all seem slower than dirt. there is even 1 there that has all the works with i/h/e and some cams and i really didn't see any difference in acceleration. they guy who owns it has a 2000 civic SI too and he said that the neon is a "picece of crap" he put less money into the civic and the results are far better than the neon.

True that, my bad. I kinda get fired up about this stuff. I havent read this thread in a while, and i assumed that since 4 pages were added since i last posted, that they were 4 pages of fighting.

no they aren't 4 pages of fighting. there are 4 pages of heated debate with clean posts.