Man, I never thought I'd reference one of my least favourite people in the world... but:

"Many dittos!"

On a second reading, scratch that. I would have agreed with bootstrap's arguments when I was 15. I think I have a better understanding now.

i'm sorry that you feel the way that you do. but i don't think you should be laughing at what we're saying. are we laughing at you?? no. unfortunately, you're choosing to believe all the things you say. and i could just as easily come back and argue all the things you brought up. trust me, they're all the same weak points i've heard over and over. but nothing will come of it. there are some people who will just not ever turn their lives to Christ, and for those people my heart aches. no, i don't believe in God JUST IN CASE he exists. i KNOW He exists. i DO feel Him work in my life. you say you hate people, i love people, no matter if i agree with them or not. i'm happy and blessed and i look forward to going to be with my God when i die. laugh all you want, cause blessed are the cursed :)

so why don't you then?


yes but you still haven't told me HOW you know.


You all want me to believe in God, or at least explain why you believe in God, yet you haven't presented me with one single solid argument. :no: You just want this thread to die because you all have been brainwashed into believing in something, and since you can't come up with a single argument as to why you feel that way, you feel stupid and throw up your arms and cry out "I JUST BELIEVE!!!!".

My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any.. Would you like me to show you a picture of him that I took with my digital camera? I will as soon as you show me your digital picture of the big bang theory. Im glad that you are so steadfast in something that you believe in, no one here is trying to make you do anything. Thats up to you.

Have you ever talked in tonques before? I have.. and I know for a fact that it wasnt something that they learned in school.. How do you explain that? Wait let me quess its someone just standing up and making funny noises right. ;) You can believe that if you want.

ok everyone this it looking like its gonna get ugly, religion or lack of is someones belives, your not going to change them. if another mod thinks that this isnt going to snowball out of control, repoen it, but im starting to see it turn bad. everyone isnt going to change the beliefs they grew up on over this argument on the internet. people belive what they think is true, so if you think theres a god(which i do) then your gonna see how he is in your life, if you dont, then your going to find a scientific explenation for everything. you guys have proved this in 4 pages of posting.

Wow. This is ALOT of reading. Ever think this post will end?

Yep. It goes both ways. This will be an endless and aimless thread.

Anyhow my .02,
I personally don't think there is a a God nor do I follow any certain religions. I won't present any points to this because as I said early this is a pointless thread. I also never try to convince people to follow my ideals. To each his/her own.

because like my post ALREADY said "nothing will come of it"... i don't see a point in arguing away about something you'll just continue to bash. how do i know there is a God? simple: He is in everything i do, see and feel. He is the only explanation for everything in this world. it seems to me as though you're just looking for an argument by saying that we all want u to believe in God but don't give u a good argument. i will not give u that argument. i have not been brainwashed. i've seen God work so many things in life. He's gotten me through all the rough times i've had. it's because of Him that i'm still alive and that i'm so happy now.

Sooo true........lets leave it at that.

So you are saying that you do believe that there is some factual content in the bible, but are questioning 100% accuracy? Since the entire concept of the bible is focused on God, then I guess that's the accurate part.


Because as the Bible states, man was made in the image of God. Part of what is meant by the term "in the image of God" can be found in chapters immediately following its first usage (Genesis 1) in the Bible. Both Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. Such a personal relationship is not described, nor seen, for any other animal species. It is the presence of a spirit that was instilled into humans that separates us from the animals. There are three kinds of life that God has created in this universe:[list=1][*]Body only - Lower life forms, including reptiles, amphibians, fish, and invertebrates[*]Body and soul - From the Hebrew nephesh, or soulish creatures, including birds and mammals[*]Body, soul and spirit - Humans[/list=1]


Prove it.


Prove it.


Yeah, you've proven that ;)


And how is it that you are privy to this first hand knowledge. Were you around at this time and helped to formulate this big vague idea of God? Your arguments are far weaker based on nothing more than skepticism with nothing to back it up.


Wow, and the weather patterns have just mysteriously formed since the onset of time through the intervention of no greater being? Amazing...


And just how does giving credit to God somehow become more inconceivable than speculating on a big bang theory followed by a lot of shrugs and "I don't know's"? If you ask me, it's a far greater stretch to say that there was a big crash in the universe and somehow we evolved from Bubbles the Chimp.




Yes, you can see the wind blowing the leaves - but the movement of leaves is not proof of wind. That's proof that the leaves are moveable matter. Feeling the wind against your hand isn't proof of the wind. It's proof that the nerve endings in your hand are sending impulses to your brain. If you're going to knock an analogy, at least do it with a a better argument.


Have you ever felt the emotion of love?
God is love.
I would say that is a feeling...




Do you believe slavery existed? How do you know?
Was Lincoln a U.S. president? How do you know?
Did Thomas Edison invent the light bulb? How do you know?




Seems like you are the one with the selective thinking... "well, parts of the bible are based loosely on this and loosely on that but it can't all be accurate... some things must have been screwed up in the translations by man..."




I don't know who you are speaking for, but do not speak for me. If I were to get an F in math, then it is because I didn't apply myself. If you get an F in spelling or debate, it's because you didn't apply yourself. Do not assume that you can make broad categorizations that apply to everyone. You do not know my faith and how I think. If you want to know PM me or chat with me and I'll tell you, but do not assume to know.

I'm out of time for now... but will continue to respond later.

Peace out.

Hmm...my take on religion...a complicated question that way to many people take emotionally (I wonder how many posts were removed from people getting upset from even the thought of there religion being debated)

First of all props to bootstrap for debating clearly and logically. I agree with your views more than others (not to insult others views though).

The Bible: the ultimate equalizer it seems. Can we prove it was written by who they say it was written by? Is there any way to prove that it wasn't a joke by a bunch of bearded men who discovered opium? The only way is to put faith into something that cannot ever be proven to be legit.
Somebody was saying that some things have come true in the bible. --> Open your newspaper and read the horoscopes. Now read the horoscopes for the next week. How many of them came true for you? Closely true? Somewhat? Dead on? Its relatively easy to predict things without giving specific details (In my opinion that is what the bible has done.)
Some predicted events are a little too specific. --> just a good guess? or was it carried out by religious leaders just wanting to spur faith in their religion by "proving" the bible knows what it is talking about? In the end it all comes down to how much you blindly believe in something/someone.

Religious Institutions: These I believe are a crock of crap. I'm sorry, but faith and/or salvation doesn't come from a church or pope or some "holy" bath water. This is all just to comfort the attendees mind. This brings me to my belief: that all religion originated in peoples heads to make them feel comfortable in an empty universe (empty as we know it). To give them purpose and a will to go on.

I'm tired now, and I don't want to make one single post too big, but here are some quotes to churn around in your mind:


To live alone one must be an animal or a god - says Aristotle. There is yet a third case: one must be both - a philosopher.
--Nietzsche

Which is it? Is man only God's mistake or God only man's mistake?
--Nietzsche


(and one more - nothing to do with religion, but its such an awesome quote...)

Are you geniune? or only an actor? A representative? or that itself which is represented? - Finally you are no more than an imitation of an actor....Second question of conscience.
--Nietzsche

I thought this thread got locked...

Well good I get to add another .02

Bootstrap ?!?!? How come you didn't quote me... I feel dissapointed... yet complimented...

Here's the end of your debate... attempt to quote me if you dare...

The man Jesus did exist.... Proven by many other sources than the bible...
the man Jesus did preform miracles... proven by many other sources than the bible...
Jesus Claimed to be God, the son of god, and our only hope of salvation, Jesus preformed all these miracles in order to prove that to those around him.
We must either chose to believe that or disbelieve based on the records that we have.
Well we have many records stating he worked up crowds with miracles and magic acts...
We have a pretty acurate story of his life, and he seemed like a great guy, healing all those people, and feeding people, and blessing kids, never cursed anyone, never hurt anyone,
But he did get in trouble for preaching this new religion, where he was salvation and the son of God.
Then we have to look at ... well just how acurate is this bible... I mean is was written a long time ago, by many authors, but is the main source for information on Jesus.
The only real way we can do that is to evalute that is to look at the events and prophies (sp?) that the bilbe claimed to have happen and have predicted....
None of the events of the bible have been disproven , many included Noah's arc have been proven.
Now like take a look at the Prophesies of the bible...
They are incredible. . .
I wish I knew bible passages off the top of my head, but I don't... the two that come to mind are
Joesph's inturpetation of the Pharoh's dream in genisis.
and thier was a great one i just heard a little while ago at
www.tonyevans.org i would encourage all my fellow christians to check this site out, this guy is great, and right now he's doing a lot of Biblical prophesy .
the other one is the Prophet who gets called to a king to inturped a dream, about a monster, that gets swallowed by another monster, that gets swallowed by another monster. And he nailed that one on the head, but it didn't get proven till well after his life time, cause the dream was about the fall of that kingdom, I'm thinkin Babylon, and the fall of the next kingdom.

Anyway, Bootstrap, your problem is your not seeking knowledge for what its worth, with a sincere sense. Most of your Idea have come from your own head, and have no backing except for simple comprehension. When your drop the Idea that YOU are smart enough to figure the world out, and seek the answer sincerely, than the Answer that christ is lord, will always follow a search bases on fact and logic.

:bow: :bow: wow nice reply

AMEN 4JACKS AND AMEN, YOU GO BROTHA!

dont try to end the debate just yet...

thats right most of his ideas came from his head, but thats also where religion comes from. a lot of peoples heads - granted. He's not the only one that believes what he beleives, theres just not many of them posting here. The ideas aren't backed up with "facts" because we lack the resources/desire to find such, just like you had no verses earlier. I don't doubt that most of those events took place and that a man named Jesus existed.
I believe most things can be explained scientifically, if only to be dismissed as random events, calculated mathematically.

Oh and by the way, this thread should not be locked. Just because some people dont like people rippin on their religious beleifs doesn't mean that free speech should be discouraged on this site.

I say everything with the most respect for everyone posting here.

yeah i agree, but i think he got all hot over some replies other members had. sincerely i don't care too much about religion either, but from stories in the Bible, and watching TV (TLC, Discovery) and other sources i think most of the facts match.

About locking this thread: it was locked becuase some mebers could not accept that others have different oppinions.

i dont think it was ever locked becuase of how someone felt, but that the debate started to get to a verbal argument and crap was about to hit the fan. its open now, and i doubt it will shut again, unless it gets bad.

No one is smart enough to understand the world on their own - one must build on the discovery and understanding of others. That's the whole idea behind (a) philosophy and (b) science.

I doubt that when Bootstrap seeks out the answer, he will find that the answer for him is "christ is lord". I believe that that is the answer for you, 4jacks, but the fact remains that MOST people in the world who search find a different answer than you. Most people in the world are NOT Christian! Why? It's not because they're poor, lost, unfortunate souls who haven't been introduced to your brand of evangelism - it's because their culture and traditions (I think religion is cultural and traditional in nature) offer them a different book, a different creed, and a different "face" for god.

Are they wrong? I don't think so. Nor do I think you are wrong. There is a Truth - a solution to the nature of the world. Man tries to discover it though mathematics, though philosophy, through religions - when we do so (if we don't destroy ourselves and our world first) we will find that they're all different tools to understand the same thing.

A final rant (haha, who am I kidding?): One of my objections to organized religion is that it gives people an "easy answer". Follow this book and this person, and you're a good person and that's all you have to do in life. People who do that don't contribute to mankind's Understanding, although typically the top scholars and "wise men" of various religious traditions do become skilled and advancing knowledge of the world, but that's because they're great thinkers, not because they follow a book, or other men, word for word.

Greetings, to all my fellow men.

Wow...good job. I'm speechless.:bow: :bow: :bow:

There is only one answer in this world and you are blind if you dont see it. I'm a new christian and trust me I've been struggling with this most of my life. But if you really look for the answers with out a cloudy mind there is only one possible out come. That is that you find Chris, your Lord and saviour.

By the way its not cultural there are asian christians too!

nice pun:pukey on my username. Just happens to be the first song on Korn's first CD, is my favorite skateboard brand, and is my hacker handle. It is not to imply that I am blind to issues concerning religion, philosophy, politics, social policy, etc. in fact I'd like to think I'm pretty knowledgable on the subject.

anyway...the debate. continue.

I disagree with the first part, science and math are alot different than Philosophy. Math is the only source of what i would consider true knowledge, It's our own system, everything is 100% proven, and we can explain, build, and destroy the world with it. Sceince uses a little of the same but adds a lot of "theories" some are pretty good "atomic theory" some are pretty hookie... "the world is flat theory" ... but if you look at history the most commonly accepted theories are always getting rejected... the atomic theorey was rejected then it was back... makes me wonder if it's gonna get rejected again. Philosophy is ALL theory ... . Honestly .. you might hear a lot of groovy stuff in that class... but it's a waste of time.


Organized Religion is not easy ... try it... it's rather difficult. That's why there are so many Denomitation splits and such forth.


Greetings ! =)

Just talk to him. Like a friend, or a father. Trust. Believe. And keep working at it. Thank Him, ask Him questions. Tell him how you feel. Every day. Most importantly - be sincere.. if you're mad at him.. tell him. He listens and He provides - always. [/b][/quote]

that was awesome very nicely put.

has anyone ever had ''god'' talk to u? (dont mean to keep this thread going)

if so what did he say?

that was awesome very nicely put.

has anyone ever had ''god'' talk to u? (dont mean to keep this thread going)

if so what did he say? [/b][/quote]

My sisters (i come from a semi-religious household) swear up and down that god talks to them. It's in thier everyday conversation, they don't eat a ham and cheese sandwich on a certain monday cause God told em to buy Turkey. Basicly though, god moves you to do things through the Holy spirit. You just get a feeling that you should open the left door and not the right, I've only had this with really big issues in my Life, like whether to ask my wife to marry me, or whether to buy a house. I'm not at the Ham and Cheese state yet... I guess that comes with time.

ive had god talks with people but very few people have had god talks with me ifyou know what i'm saying

I'm going to add on to what mushroom and blind have said. I didn't want to reply to alot of the things said below only because they were just so ****ing dumb. I think you will all agree that when people come up with insanely rediculous arguements, it is difficult to return that arguement with something that doesn't sound equally as rediculous. Anyway, i tried. I'd also like somebody to explain to me why they think they're religion is the correct one. It is strange that people cannot see the simple logic behind this . Most if not all people who practice a certain religion are positive that they are worshipping the correct god or gods. Yet, if this is so, then the other people must be wrong.. or if they are right, then you are wrong. The answer is people just try to find an answers. Your all wrong. How do you not see that? The simple fact that there are so many different religions with different ideals of the universe, of god (or gods), of life(and/or death), that alone should prove my point.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Racing Rice
My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any..
[/quote]

Thats just plain silly. As i have said before and continue to say, as our knowledge of the universe advances there will be more and more evidence against the idea that a god exists. You can't expect me to give you solid evidence on something you people imagined from your heads. Its like trying to prove that ghosts don't exist. Everybody (or at least anybody with half a brain) knows they don't exist, yet you can't 100% disprove it, and at the same time you can't 100% prove it (or mabye you can, i'm no scientist). However, if you go by factual evidence and scientific data, there is no way that ghosts can exist. The same is true with proving or disproving god.


Ummm scientists don't just "make up" theories. They have to have sufficient data supporting it first. I don't have an actual photo of the big bang, but there is alot of evidence saying that it did happen.


thats not an argument


i know humans aren't born with an instinct of knowing god because i sure wasn't. They only "learn" about "god" becuase from the time they are born they are exposed to religion. Whether it be the media, friends, family or church, it is ingrained into their brain from a very early age.

Humans have an instinct to survive, how do you not know this, do you go to school? What do you think adrenaline is for, why do you think babies have the reflex to swim when put in water, even though they are too young to know that they can drown and die. What do you think the "fight or flight" response is. Mabye your god should help guide you into learning about shit you should know



I didn't formulate a vague idea of god, i applied knowledge i have learned over the course of 20 years to formulate a hypothesis on WHY people think there is a god.



Yes well if you go to school you would probably know how the earth was created, the basic elements it contained. You would probably know how solids, liquids and gasses interact with each other. Weather patterns were created through processes like convection, conduction, and all that other good stuff you should know about.


Giving credit to God is obviously much more simplier, i'm not disagreeing with you on that. IF we lived hundreds of years ago, without all of the scientific knowledge we have now, i may have agreed with you. But knowing what we know now, it is inconceivable to me.

As far as evolution goes, it is proven that it happens. I don't see how you are trying to debate this. Again, do you go to school?



everybody knows that air exists, and the movement of air exists, and that when air is circulating, yes it can move leaves if it wants. And we also know that when air is circulating it can make the "nerve endings in your hand send impulses to your brain". What are you arguing?


I don't believe in love. Love is just a made up word. You can say you love somebody, yet you can love somebody else and feel completely different about them. Or you could love somebody, then love somebody else and love them more. So what is the second kind of love, super love or something? I'm not saying humans can't posses strong emotions towards people or things, i'm just saying that to generalize specific feelings into the word "love" is a shame. But i'm not here to discuss whether love exists or not, so lets move on.



This is too dumb to argue against. But i'll try. I guess i know becuase people tell me so? and oh yeah, and that it can be proven 100%.



Even learned people who believe in god don't believe alot of things in the bible. They say that alot of it is symbolism. For example, when jesus made some breadbasket that never was empty, they say that what he really did was break up the bread so everybody got a piece. I don't remember much about it, but you get the idea.





i don't know what you said, but i probably didn't quote you either becuase you a) weren't proving a point or b) your a dumbass



Here's the end of your debate... attempt to quote me if you dare...


i'm not saying a man named jesus did not exist, i'm just saying he wasn't the son of god


IF you gave me the sources then mabye you'd be on your way in trying to prove your point...? just a suggestion



people do that today, i.e. magicians and con-artists. So your saying that magic isn't really just illusians, you mean people can really levetate? Or you mean when people today are "healed" instantly that it really happens, its not staged?

Ok first of all Scientist do make up theories, that is why they are called theories, this is learned in 7th or 8th grade... please attend class next time. This is why we do not have theories, in math class. Scientist make an educated guess, and call it a theory. History has proven 80% of this to be wrong.

Second, If you don't believe in Love than you disagree with the rest of the world and you're obviously wrong. There's no questioning this or debating this... YOUR WRONG. the only thing this leads to questioning, is your stability as a person...
**COUGH** prozac **COUGH**


Third I don't appreciate you calling me a dumbass. You started this thread, so either keep up with it, or just shut up. You read the thing once a month posting some stupid long post, and expect us to read the whole thing. You said... I'll debate the subject... blah blah blah.. and now you've resorted to name-calling... Personally I think that's just pathetic. So if your gonna be a little baby, then just shut up, and let those of us who can act like grown ups, debate the subject, with out your swanderings.

And finally .....
You can't deny the existence of good and Evil.... it's in our conscience, it's evident in society... it's all around us, we feel bad when we do something evil, and we feel good when we do something helpful to others. Good and Evil exist.

If God and Evil Exist, than thier is a GOD ... Science will never explain good and evil. The only answer is there is a God.

My argument is that once you realize that there is a God, and search for god will lead you to christ,

This is still beyond you... go back to step one.

name-calling
 

I'll try to avoid joining the name-calling here...


Correction: History has proven 99.9% of science wrong. Scientific discovery builds upon prior discovery. Theory build upon prior theories by correcting, refining or refuting them. The "flat world" theory in science was a good theory based on the evidence available at the time. Galileo et al came up with a new theory based on new evidence and observations, which said "the world is round and this is why". Lots of other people did experiments and eventually agreed. (Even the church agreed, I think sometime in the 1990s) :) The same thing happens all the time, in every field. Quantum mechanics built upon Newtonian mechanics; Deviation evolution (Gould's model) replaced Darwin's theory.

I don't understand why mathematics is different. You don't talk about theories in Junior High math, granted, but mathematics is a science. What about number theory, the theory of probability, Pythagoras' theorem, Fermat's theorem, logic theory, recursion theory, and the recently repopularized invariant theory? Math is a more fundamental tool than science (you could say that math is tool to help model the science, which is a tool to help model the world), but not inherently different, or exempt from the scientific method.


I don't accept any argument that says "everyone believes such-and-such." The wise man questions everything before deciding what to accept. I've been in love; I am in love, yet I question the nature of love.


Many great thinkers, past and present, have tackled the question of whether Evil exists. The bible, however, does suggest that good and evil do exist, but that's not enough for me to accept it. [looking up for lightning bolt... whew! not this time...]

I don't think it's "obvious" that God exists. I don't think it's obvious that Love exists as some entity other than a human emotion. I don't think it's obvious that good and evil exist. Although I don't know the answers (literal translation: Ag+Nostic), I think these questions are not beyond reproach, and we shouldn't write them off by saying "everyone knows this" an "everyone knows that".

[edited 'cause I messed up my quoting]

maybe someone should close this thread it seems to be going nowhere :confused:

closing this would be a good idea seems to be going around and around in circles

Even I got to agree with that. I say leave it open, but just leave it alone for awhile. Archive it or something.

Re: name-calling
 

Math is Raw knowledge with no emotions!! Math is much much much different, Math is soo much better.... A theorem is a lot different than a Theorey. A theorem is PROVEN and is not arguable. You can not disagree with a theorem. There is only right and wrong in Math, no emotions, no beliefs, simply knowledge. Math is completely extempt from the Scientific method, there are no observations, there is no collection of data, and there is no educated guess.... You have numbers, and either you solve them or you do not.

I LOVE MATH.

I'm pathetic i know.


As for the arguement to close the thread, I would like to see it stay open, It's fun.

I think we should all agree that it will never go anywhere, and no one here will convert to christianity or athesism, just from our feeble ramblings. But I think as long as we keep the name calling to a minimum we should be alright.

its going around in circles cause theres no easy answer. and there never will be one that everyone agrees on. closing it will only leave the person who just had their argument torn apart feeling cheated out of the debate. hopefully if we dont post in it unless it is on topic with the subject eventualy it wil loose interest and fall down to another page.

Sorry guys, I'm unsubscribing (from this thread only). I'd rather focus on car things. I'll check back every now and then to see where its going. Interesting yes, but tiresome.

Agreed. Except for the interesting part.....:o

Moo.
 

Unsubscribing as well...gettin tired of clicking on control panel and seeing this thread...:pukey