I don't believe in God, i dont' believe in religion

[bootstrap]

Now i know most of you believe in some sort of God, go to church, you know follow the motions. But if you actually took time to think about it, there is no way that there is a "God" as we know it (not saying something didn't create matter, but its at least not what we think it is i.e. some being with human characteristics). I'm sorry, you can present your arguments and i will refute them all clearly and concisely, i always find it interesting to what people have to say about this subject since its very controversial and technically there is no right or wrong (but some things just make a hell of alot more sense than others).

Its called "brainwashing" folk.

[Maxvla]

i have similar feelings as yours. so i have nothing to refute.

and i definately don't believe big bang or any of that scientific stuff.

[bootstrap]

Well i am 99.9% sure that scientists have proved the universe is expanding. I mean, if god is so perfect , why would he create an expanding universe? Doesn't make sense now does it.

[Mushroom]

You can't prove or disprove God clearly or concisely. In my experience, it's not worth arguing with those who think you can. So I won't.

I will agree with bootstrap that "some things make more sense than others." The cool thing is that those things are different things for different people.

Perhaps we can all agree (except for bootstrap, maybe) that it's great to be alive here and now, when we have the leisure to think about who we are, and who She is. :)

[Honda_Gurl]

i don't understand how you can NOT believe in a God.. how could you look into those heavenly skies and think that there is NO God behind that.

plus, let's just say that you're right. there's no God.. what am i gonna lose? nothing cause then by the same means, there's no heaven or hell. but let's think for a minute. what if i'm right and there IS a God. what do u have to lose? everything...

[Honda_Gurl]

Originally posted by mt.biker

God does exists but you can't prove it with your scientific methods.


actually in a way it has already been proven. everything that the Bible has claimed to happen in the past, has been scientifically proven. the cities mentioned, all sorts of stuff has been found to prove the Bible correct. not too long ago, a bunch of scrolls were even found of the Bible that were dated back to that time.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
everything that the Bible has claimed to happen in the past, has been scientifically proven.

Actually, there are MANY things/events in the bible that have been more than likely disproven by scientists. I'm not against religion at all, I was brought up in a Christian school, but I have a harder time believing when some things just don't match up. Like the bible says that humans were created xthousands of years ago (not that long ago), but there has been evidence found of human life and other life well before that time.

Originally posted by mt. biker
question for ya, if you could find out if there was a God would you try?

Yes, I would.

[Honda_Gurl]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
Like the bible says that humans were created xthousands of years ago (not that long ago), but there has been evidence found of human life and other life well before that time.


do u mean that evidence has been found that there was human life before the Bible claims?? cause if so that's not true. the Bible isn't specific as to when human life started, but it was WAY more than thousands of years. i mean the Bible even talks about humans walking with dinosaurs...

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
plus, let's just say that you're right. there's no God.. what am i gonna lose? nothing cause then by the same means, there's no heaven or hell. but let's think for a minute. what if i'm right and there IS a God. what do u have to lose? everything...

Honda_Gurl, I think you're cool and I totally respect your religiousness, but your argument is atrocious.

If I am motivated by the fear of hell eternal, and for this reason I become religious, do I have true faith? IMO, no. Further, with the knowledge than if I don't believe in God and there is a god I might be punished, then is it even possible for me to develop faith?

Originally posted by someoneif you could find out if there was a god would you try

I think you can, and I do, every day. The search is what separates man from machine.

Alternately, for you who do believe in a God - if you could find out there wasn't a god, would you try? I know, I'll probably get the "I know there's a God, so there's no point trying to disprove it to myself" reply, but it's worth a shot...

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
I mean, the bible even talks about people walking with dinosaurs

Right... and we know that's historically accurate...

[DsBlu01CivEX]

I will NEVER judge a single person for what they believe in. Just because they believe in it doesn't mean that I have to. I don't see why everyone always likes to debate about religion. The agrument is never going to be solved, which means there are going to be a lot of pissed off people walkin around...on both sides of the argument. I know what I believe in and no one can change that for me except myself and the only way that I will change my view points is if I do the necessary research myself. Too many people claiming to be religious are the most hypocritical people I've met. I don't claim to be overly religious although I do go to church on occassion. I know I sin and I admit it. I have one of the foulest mouths of anyone I know. I drank before I was legal. If this means that I automatically go to hell then so be it. It's my destiny to go there then. It's something that I gotta live with in my head, no one else. Things happen on this Earth for a reason. I've learned never to regret anything because the second you do, is the moment that you second guess yourself and your judgement and become a weak person in my eyes. U gotta be somewhat proud of your decisions you make in life cuz they are what make you "you". I'm not sayin that some people don't make bad decisons and I'm not sayin that I don't make bad ones, but I learn(ed) from mine and all in all they have made me a better person.

[Honda_Gurl]

first off, i just kinda wanna tell everyone that i, in no way, want to start any kind of argument. i have a strong faith, and a strong love for my Lord..and when discussions about Him arise, i definately want to get involved and try to stand up for what i believe or should i say know to be true. i know there are many many people who don't believe the way i do, and i will never disrespect anyone for that. and mushroom, i did not mean to say that anyone should be "scared" into their faith. i'm not the type to go and yell at people "you're going to hell!" i am in no position to judge anyone, because we are all sinful. i am not perfect by any means, but i know i'm forgiven, and that's the difference. all i meant by that statement, was what do u have to lose to try to believe in God? and to answer your question, if someone could prove to me that God didn't exist, or give me something even remotely questionable, then i probably would also doubt and might believe there was no God. but there has never been a time where i've heard something that made me doubt His existence. and for D - what you said about "religious" people being hypocritical, i know i've heard that before. i think the reason that is is because people have this idea that Christians are perfect, and they never sin again. so when you hear someone say drinking is wrong and then u see them have a drink, u say 'what a hypocrite' when in reality, it's just that we KNOW things are wrong, but sometimes we stumble and sin..i know i do (not with drinking, but other things)...

[DsBlu01CivEX]

I guess what I meant by hypocritical I didn't necessarily mean by sinning only. My parents for example would be Christians I consider hypocritical. They go to church every Sunday, believe in God, pray, do things for church, are on a lot of the organizations and comittees at our church and are some of the most hypocritical people I've ever met. I thought that Christains are supposed to be accepting and understanding and forgiving of everyone...no matter their color, beliefs, background, economic standing etc. But no sooner do my parents get out of the church parking lot then are they speaking negatively about others and gossiping about others at the church and the wrong that they do. I know other people like this who are "good christians" not just my parents. I know that people sin...its sorta what we do...and I know that if we believe, we are forgiven.

[juvenile]

bootstrap, can ask YOU a question. WHY did you post this? To brainwash us NOT to believe in God? Why not leave people the way they are. Religious arguments never ended good. Why trying another one?

[Kyle]

ok...Honda Gurl...you said that everyone is sinful...but you are forgiven?...who forgives you?...and does anyone actually say..."You're forgiven."?
And is is "god" that forgives you?...and who is HE/SHE to judge others...and isn't judging others "sin"
i'm not sure if it is...but i would think it is...it kinda goes with gossip doesn't it?...i don't mean to target you...but i don't really understand "religion," and why it's here...

[Violent Apathy]

First off, yep, i do believe in God. Do I believe in organized religion though? No. I don't see why i need some child molester telling me what i should and shouldn't believe. The fact that I even believe in God suprises me with how much my parents have turned me off to religion. You see, they're the classic hypocritical mexican catholics. They hang up religious pictures and stuff all over, but they go to church twice a month. Other than that, they don't practice their religion at all. They believe it's their DUTY to make me be catholic whether i want to or not despite the fact they dont' even practice catholocism(sp?) Hell, i know more about their religion than they do, and they still try and get me FORCE me to go to their church every other week. And Mobbo, i know you don't believe in God and i'm not trying to get you to, i could really care less about getting more people to, but as far as christians are concerned regarding what gives God the right to judge people, well, he's kinda God. There's my rant, and my first post. :smoking:

[Maxvla]

welcome to the club known around the world as HondaStyle.

interesting first post... i'll give you that. :yes:

[Boosted3g]

Man all this negativity towards god, better hope he dont browse Hondastyle or theres a few people going to hell.

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by Boosted3g
Man all this negativity towards god, better hope he dont browse Hondastyle or theres a few people going to hell.

:D

My thoughts are to each his own.. You are entitled to beleive in what you want and not want. Because lets face it, who would win the debate... You obviously cant come up with a solid proof of evidence either way.

But I personally do beleive there is one. If you think less of me, good, because I personally dont care.:rolleyes:

[Gator]

My belief is that everyone is born with an instinct of knowing God. Some people listen to this instinct and develop it into a relationship. Others bury it. To try to defend the existance of God is like trying to prove that the wind blows. We see the effects of the wind blowing, but cannot provide actual tangible evidence of the wind. In the same way, we see the effects of God and His works here on earth...but how do you prove His presence?

I know of past historical events (wars, politics, etc) based on documentation passed down through the generations. I trust in this information as it has been regarded as a factual representation of prior events. I equally regard The Bible as God's documentation through others of His word and promsie for us.

God is very real and living. He is present with us every waking moment of our lives - the lives that He created. For those that choose to say He is not - have you ever really given Him a chance to show you otherwise?

[Kyle]

i've tried going to church...praying...the whole deal..and once i was so depressed that he wouldn't talk to me, or help me in anyway...i started crying...
i didn't stop for a couple days...
right now...my life sucks...and "god" can't do shit about it...
there is no god..."the almighty"...yeah right

[juvenile]

ok, one thing about your situation...just because your life isn't great doesn't mean there is no God. My life is really messed up too, yet I still believe in God! What did you expect him to do, flower you with everything you want? That's not the way God works, and you see, he's teaching you a lesson now, he's testing your faith, and you are giving up easily (not sure of your situation so no flamin intended)

[toykilla]

Originally posted by bootstrap
(not saying something didn't create matter, but its at least not what we think it is i.e. some being with human characteristics).

Who said the lord was a being with human characteristics?? In Moses, god was looked at as a burning bush. Maybe you should read more on the subject before you dont believe in something you know nothing about.

[Gator]

Originally posted by Mobbo
i've tried going to church...praying...the whole deal..and once i was so depressed that he wouldn't talk to me, or help me in anyway...i started crying...
i didn't stop for a couple days...
right now...my life sucks...and "god" can't do shit about it...
there is no god..."the almighty"...yeah right


I read your comments and want you to know that I understand and respect what you are saying...but the thing is that it takes more than just going through the motions (if that's what you in fact did - I am not you and do not presume to know what your feelings were when you attended church and prayed). You have to really develop a relationship with God. Like any relationship, it takes time and effort.

He isn't necessarily going to suddenly appear before you and tell you what you need to know. He's much more clever than that. He puts people in your life that He works through - even in places like this... and He doesn't do things in our time frame or the way we think it needs to be done. God has a very distinct purpose and way of doing things. What we think we may need or want may not be what's best for us. Pray for patience and God might stick you in a traffic jam every day for a month. You prayed for it, so work on it. You see what I mean?

Just talk to him. Like a friend, or a father. Trust. Believe. And keep working at it. Thank Him, ask Him questions. Tell him how you feel. Every day. Most importantly - be sincere.. if you're mad at him.. tell him. He listens and He provides - always.

[juvenile]

Gator...that's exactly what I tried to say...except much less educatamatly...with less fancier words :D

but yes...that's what I meant. Powerful words you obtain my friend :)

[Lovebuzz13]

Oh no....Lovebuzz is about to post in a religion topic....

I was born and raised a Catholic, but gave that up as soon as I graduated High School.

Currently I am agnostic. I'd like to believe there is something out there.

However, the more I think about it the less I believe in god. I don't believe in heaven or hell, and there is really no purpose for a god.

If there was a god why would there be so much bad and evil in the world? Why would so many people be hurt by those they love?

I know everytime I prayed to a god there was never anyone there for me. How could I believe in someone who is supposed to always be watching us and there for us, but has never been there for me?

[Chief]

Originally posted by Lovebuzz13
Oh no....Lovebuzz is about to post in a religion topic....

I was born and raised a Catholic, but gave that up as soon as I graduated High School.

Currently I am agnostic. I'd like to believe there is something out there.

However, the more I think about it the less I believe in god. I don't believe in heaven or hell, and there is really no purpose for a god.

If there was a god why would there be so much bad and evil in the world? Why would so many people be hurt by those they love?

I know everytime I prayed to a god there was never anyone there for me. How could I believe in someone who is supposed to always be watching us and there for us, but has never been there for me?

Okay, guess it's time for my two cents. Why would there be so much bad and evil in the world? Because He gave us free will and unfortunately many people choose to turn their backs on God. The fact that there is evil on earth should not be considered proof there is no God - it is simply a glimpse of the other side of things. God loves us enough to not treat us like puppets on a string. He gives us our own unique minds, bodies and choices to do with as we choose. He loves us so much that He gives us until our very last breath to turn to Him. That's pretty awesome if you ask me.

Gator put it extremely well - people tend to think they know what's best for them. That is not necessarily the case. If I pray each and every day for a million dollars, that doesn't mean that God is going to drop a big bag of money in my front lawn - because I don't need a million dollars. Now, if I pray for God to grant me some wisdom with my money and to help me budget my finances... that's different - that may be more along the lines of what He knows to be best for me. If I don't know what to pray for, I just tell Him that .. "God, I'm really struggling with my finances right now.. I am not sure what to do. Would you please help me see what things I need to do to fix it?" It's a matter of learning not to tell Him what we think we need, but to ask Him what He knows we need ;)

I guess my thing is that if you gave up on church, so be it. But don't give up on God. At least still talk to Him and keep that part still going. I went through many years of not going to church and praying very very little, and in hindsight, I see how really lost I was. I also realize how thankful I am that He is so patient and how much better things are now that I've been including Him in my life.

Okay, I'll get down off my soap box. Just wanted to share my few thoughts on the subject....

[Mushroom]

Well, I can't follow up Chief, but maybe my 2nd favourite author can (in reply to mobbo, bootstrap & toykilla's comments):

"If you pray hard enough, you can make water run uphill. How hard? Why, hard enough to make water run uphill, of course!"

"If the triangles made a god, they would give him three sides."

[KwikR6]

I do believe in God..and I do believe that he is watching over us. Like Chief said. "Why would there be so much bad and evil in the world? Because He gave us free will and unfortunately many people choose to turn their backs on God. The fact that there is evil on earth should not be considered proof there is no God - it is simply a glimpse of the other side of things. God loves us enough to not treat us like puppets on a string. He gives us our own unique minds, bodies and choices to do with as we choose." I was never forced to believe in God...I chose to. I never used to. I was blind, but when I came crawling back basically trying to turn my life around from Drinking/drugs/fighting. He still accepted me. As I was. As a person, and I think that makes him bigger then any person. Because 99.9% of people would still hold that over my head. And he won't. I am greatful of what I have and who I am. I try not to take anything for granted, from my girl friend, to my car, to the air that I breath and the food that I eat. To the clothes on my back, and the shelter over my head.
To say that their is no devil out there, is the funniest thing that I have heard. He wants you to think their is no God. And your being blind to the truth. I don't go to Church, I keep my relationship on a more personal basis with God. Everytime I have truely needed God he has helped me. From cleaning up, to surviving through multiple surgeries and givin a 0% chance of living. Now tell me their isn't a God and he didn't help me through that. I will laugh at you. I was givin a 0 yes I said 0% chance of living, my parents prayed. And Im here. Thanks to the lord. And to people who prayed for me. And to people who pray everyday for good things to happen in this world. I was a good thing that happend. Thank you.
Now argue with that.:rolleyes:

[4jacks]

I can't beilve I've been so out of it... that I missed this post !!! =(

Well everyone knows I believe in god, and I really think the christians here are just puttin it down !!!!!

Mad props to all my christian brethern !!! And my sista Honda_Gurl

I would just like to touch on two topic ... Organized Religion and Humility

Many people have stated that they really don't like organized religion or the church. (Many times stating the Catholic Church) Unfortunatly ... You can't just give up on organized religion... cuase that's our fancy bad word for fellowship... and Christ has called us to fellowship... it's absolutly nessocery to have fellowship in our lives... on our own the devil can easily conquer us and sway our thought... but together we are strong, and can show eachother the errors of our ways. I would really urge everyone who is a christian, or even just beilves that thier is a god, and dislikes organized reliogion... to really SEARCH for a church... all churches are very differerent... I'm learning that as I personally search for a church for my wife and I. Unfortunatly a lot of churches, just really aren't on Key with the word of god. the post important thing about a church is the Pastor... if the pastor isn't quoteing the bible to follow with his sermon, it's a good sign, that he making a lot of things up. Searching for the right church has taken me over a year and I still haven't found one the lord is calling me to... But I'm not dispairing over it I know the lord has a home for me. And I urge everyone to take the same patience.

To address the athesist (sp?) it all comes down to Humility ... If you are not willing to admit that man is absolutly powerless, you will never see a need to believe in god. God created us with a free will so you are free to not beilve in him, and that has given mankind a very proud and boastful veiw on the world. But if you look around your life and your circumstances, and give yourself an honest view, you will see that you are powerles... You can't control if your boss will fire you tommorow... you can't control if your wife will leave you, you can't save your dog from being hit by a car.... You are powerless to the circumstances around you. There are two Cosmic forces battling the circumstances around you, good and evil, God and the Devil, to say that they don't exist is the very first ploy of the devil. If you admit that good and evil exist, that you admit to the existense of a Higher power. Becuase Science, Evolution or anything can NOT provide you with a Conscience. It just can't... Lions do not feel sorry when stealing a dead carcass to eat from a Wolf... But the man who steals bread for his family still feels remorse...
To deny the existence of good and evil is just stupid
To admit that good and evil exist is to admit God and the devil exist
To admit that God exist, it stupid not to search for him
A true search for God, will lead you to Christ.

Proof that God exist...

My prayers get answered.
My boss doesn't fire me, my wife won't leave me, my dogs running around the yard and happy,

[FasterThanLight]

Is anyone familiar with Occam's Razor (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html)? The most logical explanation for something is the least complex one. This leads to "I see no God, therefore there is no God." Well, guess what? I'm not going to take sides. As Yoda would say, "My opinion matters not." Please take from Occam's Razor whatever you would like.

Regarding the Bible. It was written by Man as an interpretation of the "word of God". Any chance there were mistakes?

Regarding sin. What better way to keep the weak-minded from "misbehaving" than the threat of eternal damnation? If the only reason for a holier than thou attitude is to avoid going to hell, what the f is the point? Sacrifice personal freedom and enjoyment of life on the hope that there is a better life after death? One has to admit that one might be missing the only opportunity to enjoy consciousness. I refer back to Honda_Gurl's argument about what do you have to lose. I'm not picking on her. There's nothing wrong or right with living like there is/is not a God/Gods. I'll use the Mormon ritual of not using anything habit-forming. Can anyone honestly say that drinking beverages containing caffeine is reason enough to spend eternity in hell? What about the seven original sins.... Whoops, I got sucked in. Have a nice thread! Debating religion is interesting but difficult in person. Online, I say next to impossible, it is... Happy Honda'ing!!!!

[Chief]

I don't not believe that the Bible was written by man as an interpretation of the word of God. I believe that the Bible was written by God through man. Do I believe that there were the chance of mistakes? No. God doesn't make mistakes. ;)

[Accord Man]

I'm a practicing catholic.
i have no time to elaborate on what I think.. But its beautiful to see so many of you believe. I thought I'd be the only one.. :eek:

[Maxvla]

so many words... so many posts... at least we all have a stance on the issue. cept me. which i have no idea.

[KwikR6]

Try to..you would probably be happier knowing if or if not.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by FasterThanLight
Is anyone familiar with Occam's Razor (http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/OCCAMRAZ.html)? The most logical explanation for something is the least complex one. This leads to "I see no God, therefore there is no God." Well, guess what? I'm not going to take sides. As Yoda would say, "My opinion matters not." Please take from Occam's Razor whatever you would like.

Regarding the Bible. It was written by Man as an interpretation of the "word of God". Any chance there were mistakes?

Regarding sin. What better way to keep the weak-minded from "misbehaving" than the threat of eternal damnation? If the only reason for a holier than thou attitude is to avoid going to hell, what the f is the point? Sacrifice personal freedom and enjoyment of life on the hope that there is a better life after death? One has to admit that one might be missing the only opportunity to enjoy consciousness. I refer back to Honda_Gurl's argument about what do you have to lose. I'm not picking on her. There's nothing wrong or right with living like there is/is not a God/Gods. I'll use the Mormon ritual of not using anything habit-forming. Can anyone honestly say that drinking beverages containing caffeine is reason enough to spend eternity in hell? What about the seven original sins.... Whoops, I got sucked in. Have a nice thread! Debating religion is interesting but difficult in person. Online, I say next to impossible, it is... Happy Honda'ing!!!!


Dude, Occam's Razor has no practical application even in science. Example, following this theory we never would of guess Hydrogen has a completely different way of molecular bonding, hence given hydrogen molecule completely different charateristics... We would still be wondering why Water is the only liquid that expands when it freezes... we would be no where close to the technology that we have today... I mean this Occam guy lived in the Midevil times... NOTHING good came out of that whole era... This guy was a crack pot with a new name for a old Idea... LAZINESS... if I can't see it.. it's not worth worring about.. To live your life by this philoshophy is Foolish... and to base your beliefe in god on it ... well that's beyond foolish ...

To expand on your comment about mistakes in the bible.... NO ... the greek version of the bible was only recopied by monks until the photocopier came about... for centuries, only churches owned a copy..... Monks took several years making one copy of the bible in greek, working 15-20 hours a day sitting at a desk coping the bible... The kept a human hair, and used this hair to space the letters in thier copy. They would only Copy one Greek character at a time, the wouldn't look at the word "THE" and then write "THE" in thier bible. The would look at "THE" and write "T" look at "THE" and write "H". If they messed up any letter, they would rip the page up and start that page over. Each finished page was inspected by a superior before continuing.... SO NO ... man didn't Mess this one up.

And the Mormons aren't really mainstream Christianity, in fact, they are a cult that believes in work based religion. No you won't go to hell for drinking coffee... you won't go to hell for smoking pot... you wont' go to hell for murder, rape, or cross dressing... You will go to hell becuase you didn't place your faith in christ and will have to answer for those sins.

The point of hell is not to scare you into wanting to go to heaven, hell was created for Satan, it will be satans prison when Jesus comes back. No he won't rule over it.... he will probably suffer in it more than anyone... Well anyway... Gods going throw all the none believers in their too.

And Happy Honda'ing was mine gosh darn it .. :rolleyes:

[LDJ]

The number one cause of atheism is christians, I think a lot of people get turned off by god because of christians, because they here of a bad pastor or something bad went on in the church.

What everybody needs to realize is that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god. WE ARE ALL HUMAN. I am a christian and I know there are many religons out there but we are a serving a living god, I can't see how people say they don't believe in got but yet if something bad happens i.e 911 everybody PRAYS, to whom are the non belivers praying to? Ofcourse god will still answer prayers, but why pray if you don't believe? Most religons talk about hell, where there will be whaling and nashing of teeth. I would hate to see any of my friends or family members go there and yes there is a hell. Even when darwin died he beacame a born again christian, and I see all these darwin emblems. I do not think less of a person if they are an unbeliever but I am sadden because of the place they are destined to go.

Answer me this, how do you explain people getting healed of cancer without a sign left in them, or how do you explain demons, yes there are demon possessed people, I have seen demons cast out of people and watched them slither on the floor like a snake. FREAKY STUFF

By the way didn't they pray in fast and the furious!

JUST MY FEW CENTS CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG

[4jacks]

Originally posted by LDJ
The number one cause of atheism is christians, I think a lot of people get turned off by god because of christians, because they here of a bad pastor or something bad went on in the church.



That's funny becuase the number one cuase of christians is christians. :D

There is definatly some truth that some people are turned off, by pushy christians, then they turn around and on TV some preist is being arrested, and if you veiw it as a whole it just doesn't make sense.

[Violent Apathy]

By the way didn't they pray in fast and the furious!

Yeah well i think most people on this board hated that movie ;P:crazy:

[iamsparticuz]

Well after reading everyone's replies, I'd figure I would contribute my two cents. I’m actually glad that bootstrap posted this thread. I wanted to read what everyone's beliefs were since this topic is not often discussed.

I am catholic. I was raised catholic. I did not attend a catholic school so instead every Sunday I went to Sunday school. I pretty much didn't like going because I found it boring, like most kids do. I think I went to church twice within the last year. My dad is catholic and my mom is Methodist. She still attends the same church as the rest of us because "it’s a lot easier this way". My dad was raised catholic and he told me that his family did not discuss religion a whole lot, so naturally, that’s the way it was with my family.

I actually do not know what to believe. I do pray every night because nothing really bad has ever happened to me. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself, "Why are we here", which is basically the same as asking for what the meaning of life is, there is a point in which I ask myself, what “this” is. "This" being everything! How am I thinking? What is LIFE? What is all of THIS? How am I sitting here typing? What is matter? What is everything I know, everything I see? What is all of this which leads me to question this question, and how I am questioning this question? (Hope you understand) and with what, why. Etc. Sorry if you don't catch my drift, but it’s sort of hard to explain.

There are no answers to questions like these, and I’m not sure if there ever will be. I am also not sure if there is a god. How did we develop. Something "had" to have been created, materials, matter, and the big bang theory. Within that theory, how were all those chemicals or "reactants" created that caused the "bang", producing atoms and all that. Without it, what would "THIS" whole thing be, just blackness? How would it be black, because the universe is thought of in that way? Would it be anything?

All these questions lead us to believe that there MUST be some reason, some answer which we have yet to discover. I do not know how we just decided it was a supernatural being. Why wouldn't it be a group of beings or something we have never seen. When most of us think of god, well at least when I do, we don't picture a large giraffe. Most movies, TV, pictures, images, etc. usually display him as a large human or a human (homosapien) or something like that, just so it would relate to us.

Another thing that comes to mind when questioning god is the "conscience" (Hope I'm spelling that right). When most of us think about wrong and right we listen to our conscience which imo, is everything that we were raised to believe, by whomever. If we were told @ the age of 3 that scratching our arms is a sin, than we would try to follow that, that is if other things didn't contradict that. This is just a theory of mine, but when someone asks themselves.. "Is this right" or "am I doing the right thing" you mistake your conscience for trying to follow god, which is the "right" thing. You listen to your conscience, which is everything you were taught or learned, and then you decide. If you read something or learned something over the bible or about god, you would follow that. If there was REAL scientific proof that the bible was written by humans told to them by god than there would not be so much controversy over the whole topic. If it was a FACT that there was a god, than we would all believe it, but it isn't. It’s our human nature to question things, imo. If it’s not a fact, than how do we believe it’s true. Faith? Which is just really our yearning for that answer, those who believe in god believe in him for some reason. We cannot prove if there is a "wrong" or "right" answer to the fact that there is a god.

All these unanswered questions is what drives us to believe that there must be some higher being or at least something that did "this" all.

To those of you who believe that "all the non believers will go to hell and those who believe, will go to heaven," you were TOLD that, you did not ponder that up some night, you were told that by a source that cannot be proven, and if it could, than we would all believe it, its just your "faith" that drives you to believe this. I think its more so that you WANT there to be a god rather than the fact that you are searching for the answer. If this was not true, than you would be interested in what everyone's views were and why. Of course this could all revert back to good and evil, god and the devil, "god wanted us to have the choice". How can we "choose" if we don't know what's right, and this question reverts us back to our conscience and to our faith.

Sorry I just jumped @ chance to share my views about this.
There are a lot of other things I wanted to say, but I figured I would stop for now seeing how long it is.

[myself]

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl


actually in a way it has already been proven. everything that the Bible has claimed to happen in the past, has been scientifically proven. the cities mentioned, all sorts of stuff has been found to prove the Bible correct. not too long ago, a bunch of scrolls were even found of the Bible that were dated back to that time. what religion are you?

[4jacks]

Shes a christian... what a silly question

HG ... did you also know they found Noah's arc ???

Sparticus, you sound very confused, I would spend some time delving into it if I were you, You kinda admit that there is a God, least you say You think there is one. So don't you wanna find him, say hey what's up... thanks for the life and stuff.

Once you come to the Conclusion that there is a God, you really do want to seek him out, cause if he has expectations of you, it would really be nice to know in advance

[KwikR6]

Originally posted by TheBaconKing


Yeah well i think most people on this board hated that movie ;P:crazy:
Who cares :confused:

Back to the battle....I am enjoying reading everyone's opinions. Weather they coincide with mine or not, I still have to respect them although I may not agree with them. I'm not going to sit here and say "oh give god a chance" or anything like that, because I don't think religion should be pushed on anyone. I think you need to find it yourself and find god yourself to truely understand and respect him.

[PoleMan14]

HG ... did you also know they found Noah's arc ???

No that was in the National Inquirer, Bat boy also saved the president in that issue.

After taking Science, everything makes perfect since, there is no god. sorry to those who believe. WE have evolved from monkeys, there is no way you can deny that, there was no Adam and Eve with the evil snake. God is watching down on us? where is he located again? the stratosphere or the troposphere? and hell is where again? right under the natural gas and oil reserves? ok i get it now.....and does your fair forgiving god only like humans? or do insects and plants go to heaven too? they are a breathing species just like all of us.

Religion is to keep the world safe, like someone was saying before....what better way to make people stop commiting crimes then saying they are going to hell?

[Quist]

I am actually amazed by the diversity of opinions we have on here, its really nice to see other peoples points of view. I never thought that everyones beliefs were so different-its kinda cool. But this is a very very dificult topic to discuss, because there will never be any answer.

Question: If you lived your life waiting for the "After-Life" and when you die there is none....then have you really lived your life??

[4jacks]

Originally posted by PoleMan14
HG ... did you also know they found Noah's arc ???

No that was in the National Inquirer, Bat boy also saved the president in that issue.



:crazy: the quote button is on the bottom of everyone's post

No that Was on TLC I love that Channel...

it was a while ago... but they DID find a big boat really high on a mountian over in the middle east somewhere... so that mountain must be Mt. Olive.

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by 4jacks

No that Was on TLC I love that Channel...

it was a while ago... but they DID find a big boat really high on a mountian over in the middle east somewhere... so that mountain must be Mt. Olive.

4jacks is right - that was found quite a few years ago. Actually, almost every religious / cultural tradition tradition from that region references a story about a great flood and only a few animals and people surviving. There's some scientific legitimacy to widespread flooding during that time, too, from dirt and rock samples and stuff.

[Honda_Gurl]

i want to give props to 4jacks for bringing up so many good points. a lot of which, were responses i was thinking also. there's a lot of lost people on this board, and there's not much else to say to people who don't believe. people think there's no God, i don't understand how that is, if everything will always lead back to Him. we come from monkeys? then how come there are still monkeys around today?? to all my fellow brothers in Christ, all we can do is pray. there's no point to argue with people who will just not choose to see the Truth. we did our job, which is to plant the seed, so to say, and now there's nothing left to do but pray. we did our job as Christians to spread the Gospel, now the rest is left to God. :yes:

[wongfeihung]

Originally posted by bootstrap
Now i know most of you believe in some sort of God, go to church, you know follow the motions. But if you actually took time to think about it, there is no way that there is a "God" as we know it (not saying something didn't create matter, but its at least not what we think it is i.e. some being with human characteristics). I'm sorry, you can present your arguments and i will refute them all clearly and concisely, i always find it interesting to what people have to say about this subject since its very controversial and technically there is no right or wrong (but some things just make a hell of alot more sense than others).

Its called "brainwashing" folk.


Because there is a word called "perfect" there obviously has to be a meaning for it. Perfect meaning having no flaws, no sin, no evil inside that "perfect" somthing or "someone". Everyone strives to be perfect. Why do you make yourself better by taking care of yourselves, getting rid of pride, or racist thoughts, why do people have eating disorders, or have low self esteem. Why do we do such things to ourselves??? Because we want to be PERFECT! We all want to get rid of our flaws and become perfect, we all want everyone to like us, to accept us, in a sense to love us. So we have this view of perfection there has to be a perfect being for us to observe and measure ourselves to that person. How do we know what perfection is without a perfect being existing? how do we know how to be perfect wihtout there being a God who we can measure oursevles to? God is perfect. Because we want to be perfect and we need a person to measure our selves in the level of perfection, God does exist.

In the beginning, how did we come to being? If you believe in the big bang, then you have to believe that before that big bang there was nothing. nothing existed, thats what evoultionist believe. now if the big bang ever did exist, then there had to be a prime mover of that explosion. Even if you say " well..some mocules gathered together and caused that explosion, it wasn't God!!" Then you have to ask yourselves..where did those couple molecuse come from? Who made it? did it just pop from nowhere and then make the explosion happen? No, the answer is that there was and is a prime mover who caused that explosion and that has to be God.

What i'm trying to say is, we can argue all we want, but we are not going to get anywhere. If you really want to talk about God, then im me or email me a choverine@Hotmail.com then we can talk more in depth without the hinderance of a forum. drop me a line bootstrap, we'll talk.

[bootstrap]

Some of my replies may have been uncalled for, i.e. name calling etc. PLease ignore these remarks and focus on the point i am trying to make. Thankyou.


Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
plus, let's just say that you're right. there's no God.. what am i gonna lose? nothing cause then by the same means, there's no heaven or hell. but let's think for a minute. what if i'm right and there IS a God. what do u have to lose? everything...

do you remember anything before you were born? wait, lemme guess.. you DON'T. Well what do you think its going to be like after you die hmmm? You don't exist anymore, just like you didn't exist before you were born.


Originally posted by Honda_Gurl


actually in a way it has already been proven. everything that the Bible has claimed to happen in the past, has been scientifically proven. the cities mentioned, all sorts of stuff has been found to prove the Bible correct. not too long ago, a bunch of scrolls were even found of the Bible that were dated back to that time.

haha whoaaaaa that REALLY proves EVERYTHING now. OF COURSE CITIES IN THE BIBLE REALLY EXISTED. nobody is saying the bible is 100% made up. It is probaly based extremely loosly on things that actually happened. Its just like when you make a movie based on a true story, sure its from an event that really happened, but the movie is completely ficticous in its content.



Originally posted by Honda_Gurl


. i mean the Bible even talks about humans walking with dinosaurs...

haha, if you know anything about anything, you know people did NOT walk with "dinosaurs". Of course prehistoric creatures still do exist, but not "dinosaurs" as everybody thinks (i.e. the T-rex and all those big things)


Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX
. Too many people claiming to be religious are the most hypocritical people I've met.

I concur

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
what do u have to lose to try to believe in God? and to answer your question, if someone could prove to me that God didn't exist, or give me something even remotely questionable, then i probably would also doubt and might believe there was no God

haha, thats like saying your favorite color is blue, but if somebody gives you evidence that its not your favorite color, then you'll change your mind. I don't believe in god, but i would imagine that if you did, you would not be saying that. Your also using the "what do i have to lose" argument, which means you only believe in him 'just in case' he exists. haha

Originally posted by TheBaconKing
i could really care less about getting more people to, but as far as christians are concerned regarding what gives God the right to judge people, well, he's kinda God. There's my rant, and my first post. :smoking:

yes you are giving god human characteristics again, which is a no-no. We have our own set of morals, like, killing is not a good thing for instince. However in other species of animals, killing is perfectly natural. Why is it that only humans answer to god and not any other species of animal, even those animals that have existed on this earth thousands of years before humans ever existed. And if this universe was created for humans, becasue only we answer to god, then why did he wait so damn long to put us here, why wait billions of years. That doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by Gator
My belief is that everyone is born with an instinct of knowing God.

Nobody is born with an "instinct of knowing god" . We are all born with instinct to survive. I dont know much about the area so i won't go on. The way humans were introduced to god was in an attempt to explain the unkown. The indians prayed so that it would rain and they're crops would grow. They believe god was making it rain. We now know that there are weather patterns, jet streams, updrafts and all that good stuff that makes moisture in the air and water droplets and precipitation. Over the centuries humans have gave god the credit for alot of things, yet we have found the science behind these things for quite a few. Of course we do not know everything, such as how big the universe is, how matter was created, and if we don't wipe out the human race, we might get those answers someday. But to take the easy way out and say that "god" did it, is inconcevaible.

Originally posted by Gator

To try to defend the existance of God is like trying to prove that the wind blows. We see the effects of the wind blowing, but cannot provide actual tangible evidence of the wind. In the same way, we see the effects of God and His works here on earth...but how do you prove His presence?

i'm sorry thats just stupid. If your going to make an analogy at least make a good one. You can see the wind blowing the leaves on the tree, as well as feel the wind against your hand. However, you can see an "act of god" such as a fireman saving somebody?(i don't know what an act of god is, but anyway), but you don't "feel" anything when that happens. if you do, you probably need to consult with a doctor.


Originally posted by Gator


I know of past historical events (wars, politics, etc) based on documentation passed down through the generations. I trust in this information as it has been regarded as a factual representation of prior events. I equally regard The Bible as God's documentation through others of His word and promsie for us.



haha, ignorance at its finest hour. If you think our interpretation of historical events is correct. There are always facts left out, di-information added in, and then when you pass that down from generation to generation, the facts and mis-information get scrambled up and by the time your hearing it, nobody knows the truth anymore. Believe that


Originally posted by juvenile
ok, one thing about your situation...just because your life isn't great doesn't mean there is no God. My life is really messed up too, yet I still believe in God! What did you expect him to do, flower you with everything you want? That's not the way God works, and you see, he's teaching you a lesson now, he's testing your faith, and you are giving up easily (not sure of your situation so no flamin intended)

Haha, i love it when people say this. When times are good, its because of god. When times are bad, its because of god. Your just thinking what you want to think bro. Lemme ask you something son, my friends mother died of cancer, must have been around 50, and i know for a fact she was a good woman, how is that testing her faith. You go and tell her family that.

Don't you see that its just a wall of comfort you put around yourselves. When you narrowly avoid and car accident, you think "oh , god helped me". But if you get an F in your math class, god is "punishing you" for something else you've done. Thats just rediculous, your just trying to find a reason for why things happen. The truth is, life is based on the laws of probability. When you drive, there is a certain probability that you will get into an accident. When you do get in an accident, you've lost your bet, meaning when you got into your car you bet you wouldn't crash, but you did. Thats all it is folk. Sorry.

Originally posted by toykilla


Who said the lord was a being with human characteristics?? In Moses, god was looked at as a burning bush. Maybe you should read more on the subject before you dont believe in something you know nothing about.

What i meant was, human characteristics in so much as thought processes. God interprets right from wrong. What other animal thinks like that except human beings? My point exactly

Originally posted by Gator




He isn't necessarily going to suddenly appear before you and tell you what you need to know. He's much more clever than that. He puts people in your life that He works through - even in places like this... and He doesn't do things in our time frame or the way we think it needs to be done. God has a very distinct purpose and way of doing things. What we think we may need or want may not be what's best for us. Pray for patience and God might stick you in a traffic jam every day for a month. You prayed for it, so work on it. You see what I mean?
.

haha, thats funny. Thats like reading your horoscope and it says "you will face many challenges today". Then you go and your manager is angry with you at work and your like, MRS. CLEO WAS RIGHT! she IS real!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Chief

The fact that there is evil on earth should not be considered proof there is no God - it is simply a glimpse of the other side of things. God loves us enough to not treat us like puppets on a string. He gives us our own unique minds, bodies and choices to do with as we choose. He loves us so much that He gives us until our very last breath to turn to Him. That's pretty awesome if you ask me.

IF god was so great, he would have tailor made our "free will", barring evil thoughts from our minds. i mean, he IS god, isn't he? OF course i've heard the argument about free will before, its just another excuse for "evil". For example, lets say your stranded in a forest, and some plane comes along, and rescues you, you say it was the work of the lord. But if it was the work of the lord, he would have sent the plane to that area, which means he would have head to control the plane throught the pilot, which would have meant he would have had to control the pilot, which negates free will. OR, you could think rationally and just say a plane happened to fly over.

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
. people think there's no God, i don't understand how that is, if everything will always lead back to Him. we come from monkeys? then how come there are still monkeys around today?? to all my fellow brothers in Christ, all we can do is pray. there's no point to argue with people who will just not choose to see the Truth. we did our job, which is to plant the seed, so to say, and now there's nothing left to do but pray. we did our job as Christians to spread the Gospel, now the rest is left to God. :yes:

haha, about the monkeys. If you knew anything about evolution, you would know that a species gets seperated into 2 groups. One of those groups may stay in the same habitat, whereas the other groups environment changes. Becasue of these changes, mutations in the birds may help or hinder they're ability to stay alive. Changes are adapted, and so after hundreds of years, the end result is a completely different species of animal. ITs a ****ing fact.

And to remark on how we shouldn't argue and to just let things go as they may. Thats the dumbest thing in the world. So just becuase alot of people believe in one thing makes it right? NO. Just because nobody cares about destroying our environment doesn't mean we're not destroying it and will eventually make in inhospitable to ourselves. I bet god really wants that!

[bootstrap]

To sum everything up, the term "god" was created to explain the unexplainable. However, after enough time, evenatully things have and will be explained that were previously attritubed to as gods work.

I'd like to ask you why you think there are so many different religions, and what makes you think you are practicing the right one. Some religions believe in one god, others believe in several. So is there one god or several gods? Even people who believe in god don't agree with each other. And even people who agree with the amount of gods dont agree on what gods message is. And even people who agree on the message don't all practice it.

To think that we are special, that "god" put us here is childish. THe probability for creating life is obviously very slim. Out of the trillions of galaxies in space, all of them containing trillions of stars, i think it is reasonable to believe that our planet is an exeption, or at least a rare execption, in which life exists. Events, life, and death, are all based on probability, not acts of god. People use god as a comfort sheild.

To our knowledge, matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Which means we cannot even begin to fathom with what forces we are dealing with, becuase matter has been around for an amount of time we cannot begiin to imagine. For us, a species of animal on a lonely planet, to somehow marvel upon the answer to how the universe, or matter was created, is laughable if you actually take the time to think about it.

[Mushroom]

Man, I never thought I'd reference one of my least favourite people in the world... but:

"Many dittos!"

On a second reading, scratch that. I would have agreed with bootstrap's arguments when I was 15. I think I have a better understanding now.

[Honda_Gurl]

i'm sorry that you feel the way that you do. but i don't think you should be laughing at what we're saying. are we laughing at you?? no. unfortunately, you're choosing to believe all the things you say. and i could just as easily come back and argue all the things you brought up. trust me, they're all the same weak points i've heard over and over. but nothing will come of it. there are some people who will just not ever turn their lives to Christ, and for those people my heart aches. no, i don't believe in God JUST IN CASE he exists. i KNOW He exists. i DO feel Him work in my life. you say you hate people, i love people, no matter if i agree with them or not. i'm happy and blessed and i look forward to going to be with my God when i die. laugh all you want, cause blessed are the cursed :)

[bootstrap]

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl
i could just as easily come back and argue all the things you brought up.


so why don't you then?

Originally posted by Honda_Gurl

no, i don't believe in God JUST IN CASE he exists. i KNOW He exists.

yes but you still haven't told me HOW you know.


You all want me to believe in God, or at least explain why you believe in God, yet you haven't presented me with one single solid argument. :no: You just want this thread to die because you all have been brainwashed into believing in something, and since you can't come up with a single argument as to why you feel that way, you feel stupid and throw up your arms and cry out "I JUST BELIEVE!!!!".

[Racing Rice]

My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any.. Would you like me to show you a picture of him that I took with my digital camera? I will as soon as you show me your digital picture of the big bang theory. Im glad that you are so steadfast in something that you believe in, no one here is trying to make you do anything. Thats up to you.

Have you ever talked in tonques before? I have.. and I know for a fact that it wasnt something that they learned in school.. How do you explain that? Wait let me quess its someone just standing up and making funny noises right. ;) You can believe that if you want.

[ChrisCantSkate]

ok everyone this it looking like its gonna get ugly, religion or lack of is someones belives, your not going to change them. if another mod thinks that this isnt going to snowball out of control, repoen it, but im starting to see it turn bad. everyone isnt going to change the beliefs they grew up on over this argument on the internet. people belive what they think is true, so if you think theres a god(which i do) then your gonna see how he is in your life, if you dont, then your going to find a scientific explenation for everything. you guys have proved this in 4 pages of posting.

[Addict]

Wow. This is ALOT of reading. Ever think this post will end?
Originally posted by Racing Rice
My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any..

Yep. It goes both ways. This will be an endless and aimless thread.

Anyhow my .02,
I personally don't think there is a a God nor do I follow any certain religions. I won't present any points to this because as I said early this is a pointless thread. I also never try to convince people to follow my ideals. To each his/her own.

[Honda_Gurl]

Originally posted by bootstrap


so why don't you then?



because like my post ALREADY said "nothing will come of it"... i don't see a point in arguing away about something you'll just continue to bash. how do i know there is a God? simple: He is in everything i do, see and feel. He is the only explanation for everything in this world. it seems to me as though you're just looking for an argument by saying that we all want u to believe in God but don't give u a good argument. i will not give u that argument. i have not been brainwashed. i've seen God work so many things in life. He's gotten me through all the rough times i've had. it's because of Him that i'm still alive and that i'm so happy now.

[KwikR6]

Originally posted by Civic_Addict
I also never try to convince people to follow my ideals. To each his/her own.

Sooo true........lets leave it at that.

[Gator]

Originally posted by bootstrap

haha whoaaaaa that REALLY proves EVERYTHING now. OF COURSE CITIES IN THE BIBLE REALLY EXISTED. nobody is saying the bible is 100% made up. It is probaly based extremely loosly on things that actually happened. Its just like when you make a movie based on a true story, sure its from an event that really happened, but the movie is completely ficticous in its content.


So you are saying that you do believe that there is some factual content in the bible, but are questioning 100% accuracy? Since the entire concept of the bible is focused on God, then I guess that's the accurate part.



We have our own set of morals, like, killing is not a good thing for instince. However in other species of animals, killing is perfectly natural. Why is it that only humans answer to god and not any other species of animal, even those animals that have existed on this earth thousands of years before humans ever existed. And if this universe was created for humans, becasue only we answer to god, then why did he wait so damn long to put us here, why wait billions of years. That doesn't make sense to me.

Because as the Bible states, man was made in the image of God. Part of what is meant by the term "in the image of God" can be found in chapters immediately following its first usage (Genesis 1) in the Bible. Both Adam and Eve had a personal relationship with God in the Garden of Eden. Such a personal relationship is not described, nor seen, for any other animal species. It is the presence of a spirit that was instilled into humans that separates us from the animals. There are three kinds of life that God has created in this universe:
[list=1]
Body only - Lower life forms, including reptiles, amphibians, fish, and invertebrates
Body and soul - From the Hebrew nephesh, or soulish creatures, including birds and mammals
Body, soul and spirit - Humans
[/list=1]


Nobody is born with an "instinct of knowing god" .


Prove it.


We are all born with instinct to survive.


Prove it.


I dont know much about the area so i won't go on.


Yeah, you've proven that ;)


The way humans were introduced to god was in an attempt to explain the unkown.


And how is it that you are privy to this first hand knowledge. Were you around at this time and helped to formulate this big vague idea of God? Your arguments are far weaker based on nothing more than skepticism with nothing to back it up.


The indians prayed so that it would rain and they're crops would grow. They believe god was making it rain. We now know that there are weather patterns, jet streams, updrafts and all that good stuff that makes moisture in the air and water droplets and precipitation.


Wow, and the weather patterns have just mysteriously formed since the onset of time through the intervention of no greater being? Amazing...


Over the centuries humans have gave god the credit for alot of things, yet we have found the science behind these things for quite a few. Of course we do not know everything, such as how big the universe is, how matter was created, and if we don't wipe out the human race, we might get those answers someday. But to take the easy way out and say that "god" did it, is inconcevaible.


And just how does giving credit to God somehow become more inconceivable than speculating on a big bang theory followed by a lot of shrugs and "I don't know's"? If you ask me, it's a far greater stretch to say that there was a big crash in the universe and somehow we evolved from Bubbles the Chimp.




You can see the wind blowing the leaves on the tree, as well as feel the wind against your hand.


Yes, you can see the wind blowing the leaves - but the movement of leaves is not proof of wind. That's proof that the leaves are moveable matter. Feeling the wind against your hand isn't proof of the wind. It's proof that the nerve endings in your hand are sending impulses to your brain. If you're going to knock an analogy, at least do it with a a better argument.


However, you can see an "act of god" such as a fireman saving somebody?(i don't know what an act of god is, but anyway), but you don't "feel" anything when that happens. if you do, you probably need to consult with a doctor.


Have you ever felt the emotion of love?
God is love.
I would say that is a feeling...




haha, ignorance at its finest hour. If you think our interpretation of historical events is correct. There are always facts left out, di-information added in, and then when you pass that down from generation to generation, the facts and mis-information get scrambled up and by the time your hearing it, nobody knows the truth anymore. Believe that


Do you believe slavery existed? How do you know?
Was Lincoln a U.S. president? How do you know?
Did Thomas Edison invent the light bulb? How do you know?




Haha, i love it when people say this. When times are good, its because of god. When times are bad, its because of god. Your just thinking what you want to think bro. Lemme ask you something son, my friends mother died of cancer, must have been around 50, and i know for a fact she was a good woman, how is that testing her faith. You go and tell her family that.


Seems like you are the one with the selective thinking... "well, parts of the bible are based loosely on this and loosely on that but it can't all be accurate... some things must have been screwed up in the translations by man..."



Don't you see that its just a wall of comfort you put around yourselves. When you narrowly avoid and car accident, you think "oh , god helped me". But if you get an F in your math class, god is "punishing you" for something else you've done. Thats just rediculous, your just trying to find a reason for why things happen.



I don't know who you are speaking for, but do not speak for me. If I were to get an F in math, then it is because I didn't apply myself. If you get an F in spelling or debate, it's because you didn't apply yourself. Do not assume that you can make broad categorizations that apply to everyone. You do not know my faith and how I think. If you want to know PM me or chat with me and I'll tell you, but do not assume to know.

I'm out of time for now... but will continue to respond later.

Peace out.

[blind34_1]

Hmm...my take on religion...a complicated question that way to many people take emotionally (I wonder how many posts were removed from people getting upset from even the thought of there religion being debated)

First of all props to bootstrap for debating clearly and logically. I agree with your views more than others (not to insult others views though).

The Bible: the ultimate equalizer it seems. Can we prove it was written by who they say it was written by? Is there any way to prove that it wasn't a joke by a bunch of bearded men who discovered opium? The only way is to put faith into something that cannot ever be proven to be legit.
Somebody was saying that some things have come true in the bible. --> Open your newspaper and read the horoscopes. Now read the horoscopes for the next week. How many of them came true for you? Closely true? Somewhat? Dead on? Its relatively easy to predict things without giving specific details (In my opinion that is what the bible has done.)
Some predicted events are a little too specific. --> just a good guess? or was it carried out by religious leaders just wanting to spur faith in their religion by "proving" the bible knows what it is talking about? In the end it all comes down to how much you blindly believe in something/someone.

Religious Institutions: These I believe are a crock of crap. I'm sorry, but faith and/or salvation doesn't come from a church or pope or some "holy" bath water. This is all just to comfort the attendees mind. This brings me to my belief: that all religion originated in peoples heads to make them feel comfortable in an empty universe (empty as we know it). To give them purpose and a will to go on.

I'm tired now, and I don't want to make one single post too big, but here are some quotes to churn around in your mind:


To live alone one must be an animal or a god - says Aristotle. There is yet a third case: one must be both - a philosopher.
--Nietzsche

Which is it? Is man only God's mistake or God only man's mistake?
--Nietzsche


(and one more - nothing to do with religion, but its such an awesome quote...)

Are you geniune? or only an actor? A representative? or that itself which is represented? - Finally you are no more than an imitation of an actor....Second question of conscience.
--Nietzsche

[4jacks]

I thought this thread got locked...

Well good I get to add another .02

Bootstrap ?!?!? How come you didn't quote me... I feel dissapointed... yet complimented...

Here's the end of your debate... attempt to quote me if you dare...

The man Jesus did exist.... Proven by many other sources than the bible...
the man Jesus did preform miracles... proven by many other sources than the bible...
Jesus Claimed to be God, the son of god, and our only hope of salvation, Jesus preformed all these miracles in order to prove that to those around him.
We must either chose to believe that or disbelieve based on the records that we have.
Well we have many records stating he worked up crowds with miracles and magic acts...
We have a pretty acurate story of his life, and he seemed like a great guy, healing all those people, and feeding people, and blessing kids, never cursed anyone, never hurt anyone,
But he did get in trouble for preaching this new religion, where he was salvation and the son of God.
Then we have to look at ... well just how acurate is this bible... I mean is was written a long time ago, by many authors, but is the main source for information on Jesus.
The only real way we can do that is to evalute that is to look at the events and prophies (sp?) that the bilbe claimed to have happen and have predicted....
None of the events of the bible have been disproven , many included Noah's arc have been proven.
Now like take a look at the Prophesies of the bible...
They are incredible. . .
I wish I knew bible passages off the top of my head, but I don't... the two that come to mind are
Joesph's inturpetation of the Pharoh's dream in genisis.
and thier was a great one i just heard a little while ago at
www.tonyevans.org i would encourage all my fellow christians to check this site out, this guy is great, and right now he's doing a lot of Biblical prophesy .
the other one is the Prophet who gets called to a king to inturped a dream, about a monster, that gets swallowed by another monster, that gets swallowed by another monster. And he nailed that one on the head, but it didn't get proven till well after his life time, cause the dream was about the fall of that kingdom, I'm thinkin Babylon, and the fall of the next kingdom.

Anyway, Bootstrap, your problem is your not seeking knowledge for what its worth, with a sincere sense. Most of your Idea have come from your own head, and have no backing except for simple comprehension. When your drop the Idea that YOU are smart enough to figure the world out, and seek the answer sincerely, than the Answer that christ is lord, will always follow a search bases on fact and logic.

[ChrisCantSkate]

:bow: :bow: wow nice reply

[wongfeihung]

AMEN 4JACKS AND AMEN, YOU GO BROTHA!

[blind34_1]

dont try to end the debate just yet...

thats right most of his ideas came from his head, but thats also where religion comes from. a lot of peoples heads - granted. He's not the only one that believes what he beleives, theres just not many of them posting here. The ideas aren't backed up with "facts" because we lack the resources/desire to find such, just like you had no verses earlier. I don't doubt that most of those events took place and that a man named Jesus existed.
I believe most things can be explained scientifically, if only to be dismissed as random events, calculated mathematically.

Oh and by the way, this thread should not be locked. Just because some people dont like people rippin on their religious beleifs doesn't mean that free speech should be discouraged on this site.

I say everything with the most respect for everyone posting here.

[ebpda9]

yeah i agree, but i think he got all hot over some replies other members had. sincerely i don't care too much about religion either, but from stories in the Bible, and watching TV (TLC, Discovery) and other sources i think most of the facts match.

About locking this thread: it was locked becuase some mebers could not accept that others have different oppinions.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by blind34_1

Oh and by the way, this thread should not be locked. Just because some people dont like people rippin on their religious beleifs doesn't mean that free speech should be discouraged on this site.


i dont think it was ever locked becuase of how someone felt, but that the debate started to get to a verbal argument and crap was about to hit the fan. its open now, and i doubt it will shut again, unless it gets bad.

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by 4jacks
When your drop the Idea that YOU are smart enough to figure the world out, and seek the answer sincerely, than the Answer that christ is lord, will always follow a search bases on fact and logic.

No one is smart enough to understand the world on their own - one must build on the discovery and understanding of others. That's the whole idea behind (a) philosophy and (b) science.

I doubt that when Bootstrap seeks out the answer, he will find that the answer for him is "christ is lord". I believe that that is the answer for you, 4jacks, but the fact remains that MOST people in the world who search find a different answer than you. Most people in the world are NOT Christian! Why? It's not because they're poor, lost, unfortunate souls who haven't been introduced to your brand of evangelism - it's because their culture and traditions (I think religion is cultural and traditional in nature) offer them a different book, a different creed, and a different "face" for god.

Are they wrong? I don't think so. Nor do I think you are wrong. There is a Truth - a solution to the nature of the world. Man tries to discover it though mathematics, though philosophy, through religions - when we do so (if we don't destroy ourselves and our world first) we will find that they're all different tools to understand the same thing.

A final rant (haha, who am I kidding?): One of my objections to organized religion is that it gives people an "easy answer". Follow this book and this person, and you're a good person and that's all you have to do in life. People who do that don't contribute to mankind's Understanding, although typically the top scholars and "wise men" of various religious traditions do become skilled and advancing knowledge of the world, but that's because they're great thinkers, not because they follow a book, or other men, word for word.

Greetings, to all my fellow men.

[blind34_1]

Wow...good job. I'm speechless.:bow: :bow: :bow:

[theonlypunk]

There is only one answer in this world and you are blind if you dont see it. I'm a new christian and trust me I've been struggling with this most of my life. But if you really look for the answers with out a cloudy mind there is only one possible out come. That is that you find Chris, your Lord and saviour.

By the way its not cultural there are asian christians too!

[blind34_1]

nice pun:pukey on my username. Just happens to be the first song on Korn's first CD, is my favorite skateboard brand, and is my hacker handle. It is not to imply that I am blind to issues concerning religion, philosophy, politics, social policy, etc. in fact I'd like to think I'm pretty knowledgable on the subject.

anyway...the debate. continue.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Mushroom


No one is smart enough to understand the world on their own - one must build on the discovery and understanding of others. That's the whole idea behind (a) philosophy and (b) science.




A final rant (haha, who am I kidding?): One of my objections to organized religion is that it gives people an "easy answer". Follow this book and this person, and you're a good person and that's all you have to do in life. People who do that don't contribute to mankind's Understanding, although typically the top scholars and "wise men" of various religious traditions do become skilled and advancing knowledge of the world, but that's because they're great thinkers, not because they follow a book, or other men, word for word.

Greetings, to all my fellow men.


I disagree with the first part, science and math are alot different than Philosophy. Math is the only source of what i would consider true knowledge, It's our own system, everything is 100% proven, and we can explain, build, and destroy the world with it. Sceince uses a little of the same but adds a lot of "theories" some are pretty good "atomic theory" some are pretty hookie... "the world is flat theory" ... but if you look at history the most commonly accepted theories are always getting rejected... the atomic theorey was rejected then it was back... makes me wonder if it's gonna get rejected again. Philosophy is ALL theory ... . Honestly .. you might hear a lot of groovy stuff in that class... but it's a waste of time.


Organized Religion is not easy ... try it... it's rather difficult. That's why there are so many Denomitation splits and such forth.


Greetings ! =)

[FLAT_LINER]

Just talk to him. Like a friend, or a father. Trust. Believe. And keep working at it. Thank Him, ask Him questions. Tell him how you feel. Every day. Most importantly - be sincere.. if you're mad at him.. tell him. He listens and He provides - always. [/B][/QUOTE]

that was awesome very nicely put.

has anyone ever had ''god'' talk to u? (dont mean to keep this thread going)

if so what did he say?

[4jacks]

Originally posted by FLAT_LINER
Just talk to him. Like a friend, or a father. Trust. Believe. And keep working at it. Thank Him, ask Him questions. Tell him how you feel. Every day. Most importantly - be sincere.. if you're mad at him.. tell him. He listens and He provides - always.

that was awesome very nicely put.

has anyone ever had ''god'' talk to u? (dont mean to keep this thread going)

if so what did he say? [/B][/QUOTE]

My sisters (i come from a semi-religious household) swear up and down that god talks to them. It's in thier everyday conversation, they don't eat a ham and cheese sandwich on a certain monday cause God told em to buy Turkey. Basicly though, god moves you to do things through the Holy spirit. You just get a feeling that you should open the left door and not the right, I've only had this with really big issues in my Life, like whether to ask my wife to marry me, or whether to buy a house. I'm not at the Ham and Cheese state yet... I guess that comes with time.

[mt.biker]

ive had god talks with people but very few people have had god talks with me ifyou know what i'm saying

[bootstrap]

I'm going to add on to what mushroom and blind have said. I didn't want to reply to alot of the things said below only because they were just so ****ing dumb. I think you will all agree that when people come up with insanely rediculous arguements, it is difficult to return that arguement with something that doesn't sound equally as rediculous. Anyway, i tried. I'd also like somebody to explain to me why they think they're religion is the correct one. It is strange that people cannot see the simple logic behind this . Most if not all people who practice a certain religion are positive that they are worshipping the correct god or gods. Yet, if this is so, then the other people must be wrong.. or if they are right, then you are wrong. The answer is people just try to find an answers. Your all wrong. How do you not see that? The simple fact that there are so many different religions with different ideals of the universe, of god (or gods), of life(and/or death), that alone should prove my point.


QUOTE]Originally posted by Racing Rice
My question to you is where is your single solid evidence that there isnt one? I am yet to see any..
[/QUOTE]

Thats just plain silly. As i have said before and continue to say, as our knowledge of the universe advances there will be more and more evidence against the idea that a god exists. You can't expect me to give you solid evidence on something you people imagined from your heads. Its like trying to prove that ghosts don't exist. Everybody (or at least anybody with half a brain) knows they don't exist, yet you can't 100% disprove it, and at the same time you can't 100% prove it (or mabye you can, i'm no scientist). However, if you go by factual evidence and scientific data, there is no way that ghosts can exist. The same is true with proving or disproving god.

Originally posted by Racing Rice

Would you like me to show you a picture of him that I took with my digital camera? I will as soon as you show me your digital picture of the big bang theory.

Ummm scientists don't just "make up" theories. They have to have sufficient data supporting it first. I don't have an actual photo of the big bang, but there is alot of evidence saying that it did happen.

Originally posted by Gator


So you are saying that you do believe that there is some factual content in the bible, but are questioning 100% accuracy? Since the entire concept of the bible is focused on God, then I guess that's the accurate part.


thats not an argument


i know humans aren't born with an instinct of knowing god because i sure wasn't. They only "learn" about "god" becuase from the time they are born they are exposed to religion. Whether it be the media, friends, family or church, it is ingrained into their brain from a very early age.

Humans have an instinct to survive, how do you not know this, do you go to school? What do you think adrenaline is for, why do you think babies have the reflex to swim when put in water, even though they are too young to know that they can drown and die. What do you think the "fight or flight" response is. Mabye your god should help guide you into learning about shit you should know


Originally posted by Gator


And how is it that you are privy to this first hand knowledge. Were you around at this time and helped to formulate this big vague idea of God? Your arguments are far weaker based on nothing more than skepticism with nothing to back it up.


I didn't formulate a vague idea of god, i applied knowledge i have learned over the course of 20 years to formulate a hypothesis on WHY people think there is a god.


Originally posted by Gator

Wow, and the weather patterns have just mysteriously formed since the onset of time through the intervention of no greater being? Amazing...



Yes well if you go to school you would probably know how the earth was created, the basic elements it contained. You would probably know how solids, liquids and gasses interact with each other. Weather patterns were created through processes like convection, conduction, and all that other good stuff you should know about.

Originally posted by Gator


And just how does giving credit to God somehow become more inconceivable than speculating on a big bang theory followed by a lot of shrugs and "I don't know's"? If you ask me, it's a far greater stretch to say that there was a big crash in the universe and somehow we evolved from Bubbles the Chimp.



Giving credit to God is obviously much more simplier, i'm not disagreeing with you on that. IF we lived hundreds of years ago, without all of the scientific knowledge we have now, i may have agreed with you. But knowing what we know now, it is inconceivable to me.

As far as evolution goes, it is proven that it happens. I don't see how you are trying to debate this. Again, do you go to school?


Originally posted by Gator

Yes, you can see the wind blowing the leaves - but the movement of leaves is not proof of wind. That's proof that the leaves are moveable matter. Feeling the wind against your hand isn't proof of the wind. It's proof that the nerve endings in your hand are sending impulses to your brain. If you're going to knock an analogy, at least do it with a a better argument.



everybody knows that air exists, and the movement of air exists, and that when air is circulating, yes it can move leaves if it wants. And we also know that when air is circulating it can make the "nerve endings in your hand send impulses to your brain". What are you arguing?

Originally posted by Gator



Have you ever felt the emotion of love?
God is love.
I would say that is a feeling...




I don't believe in love. Love is just a made up word. You can say you love somebody, yet you can love somebody else and feel completely different about them. Or you could love somebody, then love somebody else and love them more. So what is the second kind of love, super love or something? I'm not saying humans can't posses strong emotions towards people or things, i'm just saying that to generalize specific feelings into the word "love" is a shame. But i'm not here to discuss whether love exists or not, so lets move on.


Originally posted by Gator

Do you believe slavery existed? How do you know?
Was Lincoln a U.S. president? How do you know?
Did Thomas Edison invent the light bulb? How do you know?



This is too dumb to argue against. But i'll try. I guess i know becuase people tell me so? and oh yeah, and that it can be proven 100%.


Originally posted by Gator


Seems like you are the one with the selective thinking... "well, parts of the bible are based loosely on this and loosely on that but it can't all be accurate... some things must have been screwed up in the translations by man..."




Even learned people who believe in god don't believe alot of things in the bible. They say that alot of it is symbolism. For example, when jesus made some breadbasket that never was empty, they say that what he really did was break up the bread so everybody got a piece. I don't remember much about it, but you get the idea.




Originally posted by 4jacks


Bootstrap ?!?!? How come you didn't quote me... I feel dissapointed... yet complimented...



i don't know what you said, but i probably didn't quote you either becuase you a) weren't proving a point or b) your a dumbass



Here's the end of your debate... attempt to quote me if you dare...

Originally posted by 4jacks

The man Jesus did exist.... Proven by many other sources than the bible...


i'm not saying a man named jesus did not exist, i'm just saying he wasn't the son of god

Originally posted by 4jacks

the man Jesus did preform miracles... proven by many other sources than the bible...


IF you gave me the sources then mabye you'd be on your way in trying to prove your point...? just a suggestion


Originally posted by 4jacks


We must either chose to believe that or disbelieve based on the records that we have.
Well we have many records stating he worked up crowds with miracles and magic acts...


people do that today, i.e. magicians and con-artists. So your saying that magic isn't really just illusians, you mean people can really levetate? Or you mean when people today are "healed" instantly that it really happens, its not staged?

[4jacks]

Originally posted by bootstrap


Ummm scientists don't just "make up" theories. They have to have sufficient data supporting it first. I don't have an actual photo of the big bang, but there is alot of evidence saying that it did happen.


I don't believe in love. Love is just a made up word. You can say you love somebody, yet you can love somebody else and feel completely different about them. Or you could love somebody, then love somebody else and love them more. So what is the second kind of love, super love or something? I'm not saying humans can't posses strong emotions towards people or things, i'm just saying that to generalize specific feelings into the word "love" is a shame. But i'm not here to discuss whether love exists or not, so lets move on.



i don't know what you said, but i probably didn't quote you either becuase you a) weren't proving a point or b) your a dumbass





Ok first of all Scientist do make up theories, that is why they are called theories, this is learned in 7th or 8th grade... please attend class next time. This is why we do not have theories, in math class. Scientist make an educated guess, and call it a theory. History has proven 80% of this to be wrong.

Second, If you don't believe in Love than you disagree with the rest of the world and you're obviously wrong. There's no questioning this or debating this... YOUR WRONG. the only thing this leads to questioning, is your stability as a person...
**COUGH** prozac **COUGH**


Third I don't appreciate you calling me a dumbass. You started this thread, so either keep up with it, or just shut up. You read the thing once a month posting some stupid long post, and expect us to read the whole thing. You said... I'll debate the subject... blah blah blah.. and now you've resorted to name-calling... Personally I think that's just pathetic. So if your gonna be a little baby, then just shut up, and let those of us who can act like grown ups, debate the subject, with out your swanderings.

And finally .....
You can't deny the existence of good and Evil.... it's in our conscience, it's evident in society... it's all around us, we feel bad when we do something evil, and we feel good when we do something helpful to others. Good and Evil exist.

If God and Evil Exist, than thier is a GOD ... Science will never explain good and evil. The only answer is there is a God.

My argument is that once you realize that there is a God, and search for god will lead you to christ,

This is still beyond you... go back to step one.

[Mushroom]

I'll try to avoid joining the name-calling here...

Originally posted by 4jacks

Ok first of all Scientist do make up theories, that is why they are called theories, [...] This is why we do not have theories, in math class. Scientist make an educated guess, and call it a theory. History has proven 80% of this to be wrong.

Correction: History has proven 99.9% of science wrong. Scientific discovery builds upon prior discovery. Theory build upon prior theories by correcting, refining or refuting them. The "flat world" theory in science was a good theory based on the evidence available at the time. Galileo et al came up with a new theory based on new evidence and observations, which said "the world is round and this is why". Lots of other people did experiments and eventually agreed. (Even the church agreed, I think sometime in the 1990s) :) The same thing happens all the time, in every field. Quantum mechanics built upon Newtonian mechanics; Deviation evolution (Gould's model) replaced Darwin's theory.

I don't understand why mathematics is different. You don't talk about theories in Junior High math, granted, but mathematics is a science. What about number theory, the theory of probability, Pythagoras' theorem, Fermat's theorem, logic theory, recursion theory, and the recently repopularized invariant theory? Math is a more fundamental tool than science (you could say that math is tool to help model the science, which is a tool to help model the world), but not inherently different, or exempt from the scientific method.



Second, If you don't believe in Love than you disagree with the rest of the world and you're obviously wrong.
There's no questioning this or debating this...

I don't accept any argument that says "everyone believes such-and-such." The wise man questions everything before deciding what to accept. I've been in love; I am in love, yet I question the nature of love.



You can't deny the existence of good and Evil...

Many great thinkers, past and present, have tackled the question of whether Evil exists. The bible, however, does suggest that good and evil do exist, but that's not enough for me to accept it. [looking up for lightning bolt... whew! not this time...]

I don't think it's "obvious" that God exists. I don't think it's obvious that Love exists as some entity other than a human emotion. I don't think it's obvious that good and evil exist. Although I don't know the answers (literal translation: Ag+Nostic), I think these questions are not beyond reproach, and we shouldn't write them off by saying "everyone knows this" an "everyone knows that".

[edited 'cause I messed up my quoting]

[mylittlecivic]

maybe someone should close this thread it seems to be going nowhere :confused:

[mt.biker]

closing this would be a good idea seems to be going around and around in circles

[blind34_1]

Even I got to agree with that. I say leave it open, but just leave it alone for awhile. Archive it or something.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Mushroom
I'll try to avoid joining the name-calling here...



I don't understand why mathematics is different. You don't talk about theories in Junior High math, granted, but mathematics is a science. What about number theory, the theory of probability, Pythagoras' theorem, Fermat's theorem, logic theory, recursion theory, and the recently repopularized invariant theory? Math is a more fundamental tool than science (you could say that math is tool to help model the science, which is a tool to help model the world), but not inherently different, or exempt from the scientific method.




Math is Raw knowledge with no emotions!! Math is much much much different, Math is soo much better.... A theorem is a lot different than a Theorey. A theorem is PROVEN and is not arguable. You can not disagree with a theorem. There is only right and wrong in Math, no emotions, no beliefs, simply knowledge. Math is completely extempt from the Scientific method, there are no observations, there is no collection of data, and there is no educated guess.... You have numbers, and either you solve them or you do not.

I LOVE MATH.

I'm pathetic i know.


As for the arguement to close the thread, I would like to see it stay open, It's fun.

I think we should all agree that it will never go anywhere, and no one here will convert to christianity or athesism, just from our feeble ramblings. But I think as long as we keep the name calling to a minimum we should be alright.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
closing this would be a good idea seems to be going around and around in circles
its going around in circles cause theres no easy answer. and there never will be one that everyone agrees on. closing it will only leave the person who just had their argument torn apart feeling cheated out of the debate. hopefully if we dont post in it unless it is on topic with the subject eventualy it wil loose interest and fall down to another page.

[blind34_1]

Sorry guys, I'm unsubscribing (from this thread only). I'd rather focus on car things. I'll check back every now and then to see where its going. Interesting yes, but tiresome.

[Addict]

Originally posted by blind34_1
Sorry guys, I'm unsubscribing (from this thread only). I'd rather focus on car things. I'll check back every now and then to see where its going. Interesting yes, but tiresome.
Agreed. Except for the interesting part.....:o

[Violent Apathy]

Unsubscribing as well...gettin tired of clicking on control panel and seeing this thread...:pukey