Stay BACK ... I have a STICK, and I Dont know how to use it!

[4jacks]

Hello All....

I'm a New Honda Owner, 2002 Silver HX Civic. Drove a Probe for the past 5 years, I miss my probe *sniffle* ... But Anyway !! This Civic is my first Standard Shift... AND my Goodness I SUCK ! ... my wife drives better than i Do ! ..... I need some pointers !!!!! Couple Questions Though.

1) How do I go FAST ??? This seems like a stupid question, but seriously, I went from 118hp in the Probe to 117hp in the Civic, w/ comparable torque, I WOULD KICK MY ArSe IN MY PROBE. I just Can't make the Civic !GO! ....

2) Is it Ok to skip 4th gear, if so... what is fourth gear for? or should i not be doing 60mph in 3rd ?

3) When your crusing about 40mph should I be in 4th or 5th ???

Any and All Pointers On how to turn my pansy ass into a man is very much appreciated !!!!

THanks in Advance,

Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

[ebpda9]

WELCOME TO HONDASTYLE


don't try to drive fast with a stick until you can't drive normal with it. I really don't know how big the engine of your car is, but on my old subaru luuyale 1.8l i was diong something like this

1st - 10 mph
2nd - 25mph
3rd - up to 40 mph
4th - up to 50 mph
5th - 50 and up.

Every car is different in gearing so once you will get to know your car you will be fine. Just take it easy. Do you plan on doing something to your car ? We can help.

[4jacks]

Hey , Thanks for the reply...

Yeah.. I'm trying to drive pretty conservative, cause the HX is good on gas and all 40mpg i'm getting now, My engine is 1.7 liters 117hp and 111 lbs/ft tor.


YES !!! I plan on doing something w/ it!!! Right now I feel naked not sitting on any chrome, But that's ahead of me... I'm thinking of starting out w/ a Cold air intake, followed buy a Fat muffler (I shoulda hacked my old muffler off my Probe).... Then I'll get into some Cosmetics... Tint, Front Fascia, maybe some springs...

But right now... the Air Intake... Does Honda Style ever organize Bulk Buys... (Probers love those).... And if so How do I get the Info ??????

Thanks Again !

Patrick

[Accord Man]

Forget about the gear---speed thing..


For saving gas, you should shift at 2000-2200 rpm..

And give enough gas during accleration.. I dont mean pushing the pedal half way down, but almost....



When in traffic and you gotta kinda flow with everyone else, you could go as high as 3000rpm..


For now, avoid driving with the radio on.. Try to listen to your engine and feel how it reacts to driving.


Like hondaman said.. Dont think of racing or driving fast until you're able to shift like butter.. Cause you'll burn your tranny and lutch sooo fast..


Anyways, good luck! ;)

[diligent_dave]

Hey, I'm Dave. The other guys got all over the shiftin' question so I just stopped into this thread to say hello and welcome.....to Ho-tel Hondastyle. The complimentary continental breakfast will be brought to you via room service whenever you call for it in the morning. Enjoy your stay!

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by diligent_dave
Hey, I'm Dave. The other guys got all over the shiftin' question so I just stopped into this thread to say hello and welcome.....to Ho-tel Hondastyle. The complimentary continental breakfast will be brought to you via room service whenever you call for it in the morning. Enjoy your stay!

Your good at that, do you do that for a living?? :D

We sometimes get Groupbuys here. Id check out Groupbuycenter.com (http://www.groupbuycenter.com) Youll find tons of cool stuff there.:yes: Welcome to HS..

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Welcome to HS. Seems like everyone covered the driving thing. Once you go stick, you'll never go back ;)

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by mt.biker
i ordered my food 40min ago.. wtf is up with this service around here... :no: ok i'm going to make a call to someones boss and your going to get one hell of a talking too bro:bandit:

I think dave is stuck or something ;) Another 92 accord beat u Dave ?

[4jacks]

We definatly have a wacky group of ppl here..


But Your saying shift at 2000 rpm???? right now i'm shifting at 3500. Im at 2000 rpm from first before I even let the clutch out.

When I'm stopped and getting ready to go where should I put the RPM's before I start letting the Clutch out... Right now I'm bringin it a little high about 3500 so I dont stall... and less feels like i'm going stall ??? WHAT makes the car stall anyway? anyone know the mechanics ??

And What About Skipping Fourth Gear ?? Is that Bad ???


Thanks Again Guys,

Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

[diligent_dave]

Originally posted by hondaman-iac


I think dave is stuck or something ;) Another 92 accord beat u Dave ?

I ain't stuck. Just busy. hehehe


As for mt. biker:

As for you callin' someone, I'm the damn manager you can't get me for nothin', your problem is either with the desk clerk or the kitchen. If you'll fill out this customer complaint form your problem will be addressed shortly, Sir. Thank you.

[diligent_dave]

Originally posted by 4jacks
We definatly have a wacky group of ppl here..


But Your saying shift at 2000 rpm???? right now i'm shifting at 3500. Im at 2000 rpm from first before I even let the clutch out.

When I'm stopped and getting ready to go where should I put the RPM's before I start letting the Clutch out... Right now I'm bringin it a little high about 3500 so I dont stall... and less feels like i'm going stall ??? WHAT makes the car stall anyway? anyone know the mechanics ??

And What About Skipping Fourth Gear ?? Is that Bad ??


You can shift at 2000 but that is for hella gas savin' mode. If you're on level ground, say leaving a stoplight, if you let the clutch out slowly enough you can get moving without stalling. If your on any type of slight hill, bringing up the rpm to get movin is not bad. Cruisin' around in third goin' 60 is. Well, not totally bad, but the only time I do 60 in third is when I'm doin' some type of a road race thing. You should actually be in 5th for 60 but fourth is better than 3rd. It prevents premature wear on the engine.

As for what makes the car stall...
Try this, go down a road where there's noone around. Be goin like 10 mph in 1st. Now slow down verry slowly. When the car is at least moving a little forward, maybe 1 mph, the car will still be running but the rpm will be really low. You go any slower and it dies. When the car is in gear there is a connection between the wheels and crankshaft via a series of gears and such (i.e. the transaxle). When the wheels are stopped the crankshaft will be stopped also, unless the connection is interrupted via the clutch or disengaging the gear (putting the car in neutral).

[Accord Man]

You let the clutch out at 3.5k ?? thats freaking high.. You'll finish your clutch in no time..

I let out between 500(normal -- relax) and 1000 (steep) .. Depending on driving conditions..

You should aim for 1000.



About shifting at 2000, its true.. It isnt something I came up with. Its reality.. It comes up in Road and Track every couple of years..

Using that strategy, I hold 1st till 2500, and shift the rest of the gears at 2000.



Usually people will hold till 3000 before shifting..

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by diligent_dave


I ain't stuck. Just busy. hehehe


As for mt. biker:

As for you callin' someone, I'm the damn manager you can't get me for nothin', your problem is either with the desk clerk or the kitchen. If you'll fill out this customer complaint form your problem will be addressed shortly, Sir. Thank you.


Ok them i'm the general manager and u re fired :D :D jfwy;)

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

With the way my clutch is doing, very sloppy, I usually start at about 1000-1500 rpms. You should shoot for lower. Also, one more thing is make sure you don't rest your foot on the clutch pedal when you're driving :cool:

[MacRulzMan]

Welcome to HS, 4jacks :) I'm new here too, but since I know a bit about striaght trannys I thought I'd chime in. The gas-clutch and speed-gear ratios are ones that must be mastered in order to get skilled at operating a manual transmission. The ratio depends entirely on what type of driving you're doing at the time. The faster you want to go, the higher your RPM's should be at the start and when you shift. For normal driving, 1000 is about right for starting off the line, but the lower you can get without lugging the engine, the better. You will get to know your engine and the way it sounds. Hondas like the upper RPM's (that's where they get their power rather than the Dodge-complex of sheer displacement) but that doesn't mean you need to wind it out when you're starting. 3500 seems pretty high unless you're dragging someone.

Just keep in ming that, in general, all of the new things you have to think about were still issues in your Probe, you just didn't have to think about them. You have a much greater degree of control, and when you master the clutch and move on to things like double-clutching, you'll never want to drive that Ford again :)

P.S. If you want an actual listing of speed-gear ratios, look in your manual. There should be a listing, though they, like most everything Honda, are geared toward gas-savings and long engine life (always good things).

[4jacks]

Thanks Again Guys !! !


I've been driving for a Couple Days now, shifting inbetween 22000 and 25000. Not that I would know... but that feels Ok..

It's still really rough and shaky starting off and going into second, Everything else is good though...

But I just cant' beleive EVERYONE is saying shift at 1000 rpms... I dont think my gauge has every even been that LOW ... AND i'm not THAT bad of a Lead Foot... I"m still getting 40 mpg =) ... but when I'm shifting at 2500 rpm ... it feels like i'm still accellerating SLOW.... ppl behind me are on my tail... I'm losing the ppl ahead of me.... HOW can YOU guys be shifting so LOW... ?????


I'm just a lost cuase.

Patrick
4jacks

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

People were saying to start from a stop at around 1000 rpms. You are shifting just fine for "econo" driving, and you can easily shift higher when driving quicker. Now that you're getting the hang of it, try shifting at 3500 or 4000, and you'll see that your car makes more power at higher RPMS.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
Now that you're getting the hang of it, try shifting at 3500 or 4000, and you'll see that your car makes more power at higher RPMS.


Are you trying to awake the evil spirits that dwell in him??

:bandit: :cool:

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by Accord Man



Are you trying to awake the evil spirits that dwell in him??

:bandit: :cool:


It has to happen some time :bandit:

[4jacks]

Alright Someone tell me something,


These HX's .... what's the deal???
I thought I was getting the best Value, it has more HP and torque than the DX and LX and is much better priced than the EX,

But it Feels so SLOW ????

But I do get great gas milage, Is it still my driving Or Did I buy a Pumpkin ????



Patrick
4jacks

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks
Alright Someone tell me something,


These HX's .... what's the deal???
I thought I was getting the best Value, it has more HP and torque than the DX and LX and is much better priced than the EX,

But it Feels so SLOW ????

But I do get great gas milage, Is it still my driving Or Did I buy a Pumpkin ????



Patrick
4jacks


Wasnt the HX the lowest trim level?


Anyways.. With the 115hp.. Its probably you're driving..
Give yourself a couple of months to get the swing..

If observe well, the only times when your car is *slow* is when your shifting.

Try this. In 2nd, floor it till you get to around 5-6K.. It'll give a picture of your acceleration(motor wise)..

[Maxvla]

just thought id poke my nose in...

good luck with the manual
just remember DO NOT rev beyond the red line on the tachometer... lol you can ask 4thgenlude about that.

>>Later>>

[slowEJ6]

Originally posted by 4jacks
Thanks Again Guys !! !
I've been driving for a Couple Days now, shifting inbetween 22000 and 25000. Not that I would know... but that feels Ok..

damn! 22000 and 25000!!!! id love to hear VTEC kick in on that sucker.....15k rpm VTEC engagement??? :D

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by hybrid3do0rcx

damn! 22000 and 25000!!!! id love to hear VTEC kick in on that sucker.....15k rpm VTEC engagement??? :D

Maybe he swapped a jet engine in :D

[Maxvla]

22,000? sure you dont have a Cart Honda Racer?
those are at least in the neighborhood of 22,000 revs

[Accord Man]

2 years ago porsche had a prototype that revved that high..

:yes:

[4jacks]

Yeah !! Great ... this is How you treat the new Ppl!!!!

j/k



=P

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by 4jacks
Yeah !! Great ... this is How you treat the new Ppl!!!!

j/k



=P

Lol, did you try keeping it in gear longer to get to the top of the powerband?

[phorcedaccess]

Use jet fuel@!:yes:

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX


Lol, did you try keeping it in gear longer to get to the top of the powerband?


Huh..... What's a Powerband ???
Remember, for the past Five years I've just been tromping the gas pedal down when i wanna move.


Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

[MacRulzMan]

He's basically asking if you've taken it into the upper RPM range (NEAR redline, but not over)

[juvenile]

You can still get an auto close to redline.
Just drive it LIKE a manual.
Go into first, let the revs get high, then second, then third so on.
The ratio between gears is different and a manual is still better. But like let's say I'm going 100 km/h or 60mph
And I punch it, it takes a couple of seconds to downshift, but if I put it into 3 myself booom it's gone.
I think that the strategy biker taught me is good for auto's, what do youthink?

[Maxvla]

its good if you like replacing transmissions often... yep yep

i'd suggest you do that as little as possible.

>>Later>>

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by Maxvla
its good if you like replacing transmissions often... yep yep

i'd suggest you do that as little as possible.

>>Later>>


True.. Very bad thing to do.. :o

[juvenile]

Originally posted by Accord Man



True.. Very bad thing to do.. :o

How come? I just want to know why?

[MacRulzMan]

It's bad because those gear selections are there for when it is NECESSARY to use them, such as when going up or downhill for a long period of time, where it would be wiser to keep the car in a lower gear. They are not there for normal shifting; that's what an automatic transmission is for. Using them too much can wear out your auto tranny.

[juvenile]

What if I use them only when racing?

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by juvenile
What if I use them only when racing?

Do whatever you want. :rolleyes: You've been told it is bad on your tranny, so you can make the decision.

[juvenile]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX


Do whatever you want. :rolleyes: You've been told it is bad on your tranny, so you can make the decision.


Well I'd rather be on the safe side. I'll stop! Thank you :)

[4jacks]

Originally posted by juvenile
You can still get an auto close to redline.
Just drive it LIKE a manual.
Go into first, let the revs get high, then second, then third so on.
The ratio between gears is different and a manual is still better. But like let's say I'm going 100 km/h or 60mph
And I punch it, it takes a couple of seconds to downshift, but if I put it into 3 myself booom it's gone.
I think that the strategy biker taught me is good for auto's, what do youthink?

I really hate to be mean.... BUT that IS WEAK !!! When I had my probe I had a OD button it was great, basicly it wouldn't let the auto go into forth.... for up hill and such... But if you were at a light and wanted to race you would hit the OD OFF button and tromp the Gas .... the RMP Would hit EXACTLY 6495 (right before redline) rpm before shifting .... NO Worries .. Then I could Hit the OD button again to get into forth.


And No so far on my Civic I've only had it up to about 5000 RPMs ..... hehehe I forgot I was suppose to shift ....

Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks


hehehe I forgot I was suppose to shift ....

Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

That sounded cute.. Are you a little more comfy now with the manual tranny?

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Accord Man


Are you a little more comfy now with the manual tranny?


Yea !! I'm getting Better !! Cept in a Jam, I get all confused and just start throwing Gears around, while my car sits in the road and revs the engine. Today a Fire truck went by and I slowed down and pulled to the shoulder behind the guy in front of me, Well he comes to a stop before after the truck passed us, so I get back in the lane and tromp on the gas, (I'm in Fifth) Well I went absolutely nowhere so I Grinded some gears, eventually got it in 2nd and chirped some rubber on the way out.... the guy must of thought I was a loon!


Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Hehe, you'll get the hang of it though. When in a jam, just put in the clutch, think about what you're doing, shift to the right gear, and go. It will become really easy soon.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
think about what you're doing, .


THINK !?!?!?

:eek:

Now Your Askin a Bit Much !!! :mad:

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks



Yea !! I'm getting Better !! Cept in a Jam, I get all confused and just start throwing Gears around, while my car sits in the road and revs the engine. Today a Fire truck went by and I slowed down and pulled to the shoulder behind the guy in front of me, Well he comes to a stop before after the truck passed us, so I get back in the lane and tromp on the gas, (I'm in Fifth) Well I went absolutely nowhere so I Grinded some gears, eventually got it in 2nd and chirped some rubber on the way out.... the guy must of thought I was a loon!


Patrick
4jacks
4jacks@mail.com


LOL, that was funny...


Listen, 94_ACC is right.. You'll have to do some thinking if you want anything to happen..

Later when you're used to it, thinking will be lesser of a necessity. ;)

[General Chang]

I just learned how to drive a stick shift this year(i'm 23)....and while i still got my first experiences fresh in my mind, let me share with you the method that got me shifting like the folks in Fast and Furious movie........first, find some old country roads....preferably on a sunday afternoon.......go out there with a friend following you......next, TURN OFF the radio......listening to yer engine is the quickest way to know what is best for it and the smoothest/fastest acceleration.....screw the numbers and rpms(i tried every way to gauge that and it DON't werk!!!:).....now, with your buddy behind you to simulate that "driving in traffic" feeling, practice takeoffs and stops....you'll get the hang of it faster and lose that "oh shit, i look like such a moron" on the road when u get the super huge shift lunges that look like your really a greenhorn!! have fun.....its not hard and....downshifting(altho fun) wears out yer clutch

[MacRulzMan]

As with upshifting, downshifting can wear out your clutch (along with myriad other components) if done incorrectly, but you can save wear on it by doing one of two things: the BEST for your car would be a double clutch, where you shift to neutral, rev the engine to the rpm appropriate for the gear your shifting to with your speed, then shift to the appropriate gear; just make sure you DO let the clutch out after moving to neutral. Not only does this save the clutch (since you're not burning it to rev the engine), but it also saves your syncs since they don't have to spin up your transmission. A less complicated but almost as effective solution is to just to rev up the engine between the gears. While this will still save the clutch, it will still put the downshifting wear on your syncs.

Just a thought :)

[General Chang]

i don't know.....seems that double clutching might wear out yer pressure plate

[MacRulzMan]

Actually it SAVES wear on the preassure plate, as you're not using it to spin the engine up. The only thing actually getting more-than-average wear would be the throwout bearing, since it's getting two actions when it would normally get one.

[juvenile]

http://www.planetee.com/planetee/servlet/DisplayDocument?ArticleID=755

Someone posted this link before. Thought it'd be a good time.
4jacks I don't have a sporty car, it's more of a big sedan!
And I know that's it's bad, and I tried tellin it to a friend but he wants to know why. Anyone know the technicallities of why it's bad shiftin in an auto

[Incubus]

Anyway, who cares about the throwout bearing, it's only like $10 to buy from the dealer.
4Jacks, just don't get a lightweight flywheel until your better with the clutch or you'll be bouncing the tach off the rev limiter trying to get it rolling and double clutching!

I have been driving stick for 3 years now, have had lightweight flywheel for a year and a half, and I still sometimes rev a little too high getting my car rolling when I'm not really paying attention or blasting the tunes!
Good luck 4Jacks, you'll get the hang of it, it took me 3 weeks of stalling constantly in my baby before it finally clicked!

[4jacks]

Hey!! have i taken the record for the newbie forum w/ the most replies yet ?????


Thanks all for all the technical stuff w/ the flywheel and the Pulleys and the light thinga ma bob..... But I think i wont start double shifting till i understand it... and that could be a long time! :) Right now i'm still wondering if the rpm's is directly porportinal to the road speed, and if so is it the gear that makes that portportion ..... but that leaves me wondering what happens going up and down a hill.....



Thanks Again
Patrick
4jacks

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Yes, at a certain speed, in a certain gear, you'll be at the same RPMs.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
Yes, at a certain speed, in a certain gear, you'll be at the same RPMs.

Ah Ha! I new It ... Ok here's a Complicated One!!

Since, Burning Gas involves the Engine's Rpm's, Won't you save gas, if every time, you know your going to coast or brake or downshift, for a good distance, (like slowing down for a turn) You Put the Car in Neutral ???? Huh Huh ??? I'm thinkin that has got to work !!

And I'm looking into the most replies for the Newbie forum... I've got to have taken the Cake

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by 4jacks


Ah Ha! I new It ... Ok here's a Complicated One!!

Since, Burning Gas involves the Engine's Rpm's, Won't you save gas, if every time, you know your going to coast or brake or downshift, for a good distance, (like slowing down for a turn) You Put the Car in Neutral ???? Huh Huh ??? I'm thinkin that has got to work !!

And I'm looking into the most replies for the Newbie forum... I've got to have taken the Cake

If you are in neutral, you burn less gas than in higher RPMs. Cons to that is that you will put more wear on your brakes since the engine isn't helping you slow down.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX


If you are in neutral, you burn less gas than in higher RPMs. Cons to that is that you will put more wear on your brakes since the engine isn't helping you slow down.


DOUBLE Ah HA !!!

I've prepaid for some Maintence Program at Honda and their Going to replace my Brake Pads and Rotors after They Wear, But I have to Wear em out in three Years! ;) So I'll Jam on them brakes and save the gas !

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by 4jacks



DOUBLE Ah HA !!!

I've prepaid for some Maintence Program at Honda and their Going to replace my Brake Pads and Rotors after They Wear, But I have to Wear em out in three Years! ;) So I'll Jam on them brakes and save the gas !

If that's how you want to do it, go for it :D Just remember to put it in neutral, don't just depress the clutch.

[Maxvla]

oh lord... "depress"? 94_accord_ex is getting techmanualish on us. jfwy.

[4jacks]

My clutch is Very Happy :D

Not Depressed:no:

[Accord Man]

The burning more gas at higher rpm theory is tru during acceleration.. When decelerating (downshift), the high rpm is due to quicker rotation of wheels in relation to the gear you're in..

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Accord Man
The burning more gas at higher rpm theory is tru during acceleration.. When decelerating (downshift), the high rpm is due to quicker rotation of wheels in relation to the gear you're in..

But doesn't the engine still need to draw more gasoline to mantain the higher rpm's ... even though I'm not pressing on the gas, wouldn't an engine running 3500 rpms without the gas pedal, burn more gas than running at 1500 rpms, once again without the gas pedal????

And is it Ok to keep the clutch in? ? ? I have a funny habit of just keeping the clutch in all the time.. Like I'll wanna Slow down to turn, I'll put the clutch in, Put car in nuetral (keep clutch in) brake for the turn (clutch still in) make the turn (clutch still in) Pick new gear (clutch still in) and then I'll press gas and let go clutch at same time ???

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks


But doesn't the engine still need to draw more gasoline to mantain the higher rpm's ... even though I'm not pressing on the gas, wouldn't an engine running 3500 rpms without the gas pedal, burn more gas than running at 1500 rpms, once again without the gas pedal????

And is it Ok to keep the clutch in? ? ? I have a funny habit of just keeping the clutch in all the time.. Like I'll wanna Slow down to turn, I'll put the clutch in, Put car in nuetral (keep clutch in) brake for the turn (clutch still in) make the turn (clutch still in) Pick new gear (clutch still in) and then I'll press gas and let go clutch at same time ???


Dude, think about it for a second, why would you need gas to raise the rpms, when the inertia of the car in relation to the bigger gear (lower -- downshit), would have that same effect.

Here's an example, a wheel with a 9cm diameter is spinning , 360° rotations, spins at 9X. Another wheel, 6cm, is geared (attached) to the bigger one, however the smaller one rotates at 6X to accomplish the same 360°. Now a huge wheel, 12cm, rotates at 12X to achieve the 360° rotation.. In this example, bigger wheels symbolize lower gears, like in most gearing systems.

Were you able to catch any of it??


If you keep the clutch completely in, without in and out motion, its fine.. Thats pretty much how I drive..

[MacRulzMan]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but if you're saying that rpm's raised by inertia don't use more gas than lower rpm's, you're incorrect :) Every time that spark plug...uh, sparks...it ignites the air-fuel mixture in the cyl and burns it, no matter how the engine got to that rpm. Leaving the engine in a gear that sustains substantially high rpm's is only practical when ascending/descending a steep grade, the latter more for brakes than anything else.

[Accord Man]

If I'm wrong, I apologize. But are you sure about what you're saying?


You're correct when you say that every time the spark plug does its thing, most of the mixture is burned. But what determines gas consumption is the amount of fuel in the chamber. What makes you say that there is more fuel in the cylinder? You're foot is totally off the accelerator.. And there is not outboard device that suggets to raise fuel delivery.

Thus, I'm quiet certain the higher rev is due to inertia.
The force that raises the rpm is from the camshaft that rotates faster, and dispatches the pistons with greater velocity. There's your rpm raise..



Do you still think my apprehension of the matter is incorrect?

:bandit:

[MacRulzMan]

I do, because though the rpm isn't raised by opening the throttle, higher rpm's burn the fuel in the chamber more *often* than at a lower rpm. Though it may be true that the fuel in the chamber is not as rich as when accelerating, a high rpm on an idle throttle will burn fuel faster than idle rpm at idle throttle.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by MacRulzMan
I do, because though the rpm isn't raised by opening the throttle, higher rpm's burn the fuel in the chamber more *often* than at a lower rpm. Though it may be true that the fuel in the chamber is not as rich as when accelerating, a high rpm on an idle throttle will burn fuel faster than idle rpm at idle throttle.


Explain how more fuel can be burned, when there isnt more beeing released...?

ACCORDing to your theory, if I'm rolling down a steep hill in a given gear, using the gear to slow down my car, the higher rpm would result in more fuel consumption.


Nope that DOES NOT work.

[MacRulzMan]

Yes, it does; there IS more fuel being released because the engine is forcing the throttle body open wider to allow the amount of fuel necessary to ignite the fuel in the chamber and refil it. If no more fuel were released (and your idle was set at the appropriately low level) then the engine would die, as the air-fuel mixture would be so light that there would not be enough fuel to ignite.

[Accord Man]

Ok this isnt going anywhere..

I'll ask the G O D S tonight.. Then I'll know the absolute truth.

[Quist]

I think that Macrulsman is right because if no gas is being ignited then the engine would die. And if you are burnig a small amout of fuel at a 100 times a second(6000rpm) then thats a whole lot more fuel then 8.3 ignitions per second(500rpm). And this is just a guess but I bet the amount of fuel is exactly the same as when its ideling then when its tryning to get down to idle when you down shift.

**ding ding** good fight fellas back to your corners:D :D :D

[4jacks]

THIS IS GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bet a better thread has never been started !!

Accord Man, I understand Your examples with the gears, but I belive you worded it incorrectly "however the smaller one rotates at 6X to accomplish the same 360°"
360 degrees (how'd you get the degree symbol)... 360 degrees is 360 degrees no matter what gear it is, but your trying to say that if you roll a quarter 360 degrees it's going go farther than a dime rolled 360 degrees.

My train of thought was not in comparing gears to each other but to comparing the state of being in gear without acceleration, and being in nuetral coasting. When your in gear, even 5th and coasting at 60mph my rpms are around 2250, at the same speed in neautral rpms are at 1000.

I'm under the assumption that EVERY Revelotion of the engine (providing no acceleration) burns the SAME amount of gas, the gas mixes w/ air to fill the 1.6 liters and goes through the exhaust cycle. Hence Higher Rpms more gas burned over a given time. I may be wrong about that! but that's my logic into it. Granted if you press the gas pedal, the throttle will open wider and increase that gas mixture, but when the gas is not pressed I can not see how the gas mixture would change, just from being in a gear.

And who are the G O D S ???

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 4jacks
THIS IS GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I bet a better thread has never been started !!

Accord Man, I understand Your examples with the gears, but I belive you worded it incorrectly "however the smaller one rotates at 6X to accomplish the same 360°"
360 degrees (how'd you get the degree symbol)... 360 degrees is 360 degrees no matter what gear it is, but your trying to say that if you roll a quarter 360 degrees it's going go farther than a dime rolled 360 degrees.

humm, thats what I thought I said..

I still didnt have time to verify about the burning more gas thingy.. I'll see them this weekend.. You know.. the G O D S.. :D
If Mac isnt right about the throtle body opening, then I'm gonna be pretty :confused: ..


To do the ° I use the ASCII code. *hold down the ALT key, and type 0176, release the ALT key*.. it will work for sure! Oh and dont use ALT CAR ..

[4jacks]

Originally posted by Accord Man


humm, thats what I thought I said..

I still didnt have time to verify about the burning more gas thingy.. I'll see them this weekend.. You know.. the G O D S.. :D
If Mac isnt right about the throtle body opening, then I'm gonna be pretty :confused: ..


To do the ° I use the ASCII code. *hold down the ALT key, and type 0176, release the ALT key*.. it will work for sure! Oh and dont use ALT CAR ..

° Heheh YEA !!
That means this works =þ
HAHAH I love this Place
Look we got new Smiley's :paranoid: <------- this guys cool
We still need some animation to the Barf dude ! :pukey well ...maybe not...
And the Hmmmmm.... guy :| <---- He needs to be more inquisitive looking !!!

And gosh Darnit where's the =þ guy !!!!!!

Thats it I'm going to the Complaint forum and demanding a =þ guy !!!

And I still have no clue who the GODS are ?? :no: ;(

[Accord Man]

Ya this dude :| , needs to be doing something..


GODS = 2 people I know who are mechanical engineers.. One works for Orion's Race Motor development (Indy cars).


They should be able to feed me theory I lack.

:yes:

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by Accord Man
Ya this dude :| , needs to be doing something..


GODS = 2 people I know who are mechanical engineers.. One works for Orion's Race Motor development (Indy cars).


They should be able to feed me the theory I lack.

:yes:

Yeah, I'd say so. I'd like to hear whatever you find out on the subject. You both make good points, and I'd like to see it resolved.

[4jacks]

:D Yes ! I'm loving this place :crazy:

Really, I'm an engineering Major! All this is really beyond me, I'm still learning Force F creates Moment M abot point C kinda stuff, just fininshed up Calc 3. I bet I could ask my professor , but he'd have to sit their and draw out the car's engine and calculate all the forces, It would take him five minutes, :wave: AHAHA I just saw the "get more" button ! ... Anyhow lemme know what you find Out, Cuase my driving still sucks.

[Maxvla]

well now... this thread has developed very nicely and i havent even read it in a while.

i basically just skim read the last 40 posts or so i think the debate is whether going downhill burns more gas or not.

think of it this way. when you are driving normally the rpm's go up as you speed up going downhill, even if you arent pushing the pedal. if you take the car out of gear what happens?? the car returns to idle even as the speed increases. therefore i deduce that the engine's rpms are only increasing due to the wheels speeding up which are hooked to the trans which is in gear and is connected to the engine. this is also why you can use engine braking.

[MacRulzMan]

Originally posted by Maxvla
well now... this thread has developed very nicely and i havent even read it in a while.

i basically just skim read the last 40 posts or so i think the debate is whether going downhill burns more gas or not.

think of it this way. when you are driving normally the rpm's go up as you speed up going downhill, even if you arent pushing the pedal. if you take the car out of gear what happens?? the car returns to idle even as the speed increases. therefore i deduce that the engine's rpms are only increasing due to the wheels speeding up which are hooked to the trans which is in gear and is connected to the engine. this is also why you can use engine braking.

I'm not arguing against that. You're talking about the CAUSE, I'm talking about the EFFECT.

Everyone agrees that the cause of the rise in rpm is the fact that the momentum of the car (combined with gravity when going downhill) causes both the engine of the car to speed up and the car itself to slow down. However, there are two viewpoints on the EFFECT, one is that the fact that, since the gas pedal is not being depressed, there can be no more fuel being delivered to the chamber than what the idle would deliver, the other is that the rpm's are linked to fuel consumption.

The former argument is logically flawed. The fact of the matter is that there is a certain minimum amount of air/fuel mixture that MUST be present in the chamber to fire. Anything less would not ginite and you would lose that cylinder, etc etc. Your engine is basically a glorified, FREAKING BIG air pump. When the piston hits the bottom, a vacuum is created at the top, which is how air/fuel is drawn from the valves. The more often the piston creates this vacuum (read: the higher the rpm) the more powerful the force is that is sucking the mixture through the throttle body, which opens it wider than idle. The only difference between this situation and when you depress the gas pedal is WHY the throttle body opens: when using engine braking, it opens because more air is being sucked through it. When you depress the pedal YOU are opening the throttle. It makes no difference HOW, just the fact that it is being opened means that more fuel is beind delivered, which means greater consumption.

You must also condier the fact that the engine is applying force to the vehicle during engine braking. When going downhill in a high gear, the force being applied is minimal if it's there at all. When going in a low gear, the force is great, which is shown by the fact that the vehicle slows down. You simply cannot apply force without energy, and that energy is converted from chemical to mechanical by way of combustion. The chemical energy comes form the burning of fuel, which has to be present to exert the force. It cannot simply be drawn from thin air.

But the ultimate test is this: drive one tank where you do all engine braking, then drive a tank when you do NO engine braking. While both extremes are unlikely in the real world (as everyone will do SOME of both) the test will show which one will yeild better gas mileage (and by virtue of that, which method consumes less gas).

If you want to engine brake, that's fine; it's not going to kill you and I do it too; just don't tell me that you're getting the same milage as someone who makes proper use of the equipment put there for the specific purpose of slowing down and stopping: the brakes :)

[Maxvla]

i only engine brake when its icy.

edit... sheet of ice rather.
2nd gear only. not enough torque to break the wheels loose and enough engine braking to maintain control.

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by Maxvla
i only engine brake when its icy.

edit... sheet of ice rather.
2nd gear only. not enough torque to break the wheels loose and enough engine braking to maintain control.


Hey! Stay outta this! j/k :kiss:


Nuh but seriously, Mac's theroy does make sense.. I just need to find out what/which component dtermines fuel flow.


My questions will be answered tonight.
:yes:

[Trixta6]

Well, guess it's my turn. I only read the 1st page of posts, & got kinda impatient so I don't know what all the rest of the threads are about.

Here's my answer to the original question.

Welcome to the board man. This is the tecnique I used when I was learning to ride a moto soo many years ago. It applies to cars pretty well too.

First thing.... Don't pay ANY ATTENTION to the tach. I know that sounds backwards, but instead of using the clock as a tool to tell you when to shift, use your ASS as the primary tool. Learn to feel the car before you learn to read it pretty much.

From a stop:
Without even TOUCHING the gas let the clutch out to where you can feel it engage & get used to that point of pedal travel. From that point progressivly let the clutch out & feed the gas in nice & smoothly. Once the car is moving around 2-3 MPH it's most likely safe to let the clutch out all the way & accelerate.

Shifting without Nose dive:
OK, while rolling in gear, find the Disengagment point of the clutch & again remember that point of pedal travel.

To shift, KEEP ON the gas & start depressing the clutch, LET OFF the gas at the same time the clutch reaches the disengaged point. Then shift to your next gear.



Letting out the clutch after gear change (econo) :
Once you're in the next higher gear, without giving it ANY gas... Slowly & smothly let out the clutch. Once the clutch has been feathered in the first 1/3 of the way, let it all the way out & give it gas.


Letting out the clutch after gear change (race type) :
In this type of shifting, you wanna blip (rev) the engine to match RPM with tranny speed before letting out the clutch. With this method, usually you blip then aggressivly let out the clutch & accelerate. But typically, this is used for down shifting.

Once in the higher gears, you can shift & the inertia of the car & slightly faster movments should do just fine.

Before you know it, you'll be tearin ass like the other guys on the streets. Just remember: Fast isn't fast... SMOOTH is fast.

[4jacks]

:D This is great !

Thanks Trixta... I've been getting some great advice, I'm getting pretty smooth except puttin it in second gear, that gear always jerks for some reason ! I dunno ..

And I should be welcoming You to the Board ! You gotta remember this is 6 pages after my first Page ! And a Fun Six pages at that !

I'm still wanna see what Accord man's GODS say ... Logicaly I'm saying Higher RPM's more gas burning ... but i dunno !

[99lipse20lbs]

Hey,
If you are going to drive normal all of the advice above is good
but if you are going to push that engine and wanna go fast launch or take of at about 3000 to 4000 rpms. Hold the clutch down, put the car in first gear rev to the rpms of above slowly let off the clutch till you feel it grab. Once it does jump off the clutch if you get right the car should pull pretty hard if you get it wrong you will bog out or stall out, when shifting while trying to go fast do not release the gas, shift gears at redline. If you mess up u will hear your gears, but if you get you will feal some power not alot but a little :)

[Maxvla]

lol.. that is a f*cked up signature trixta.

[4jacks]

Originally posted by 99lipse20lbs
Hey,
If you are going to drive normal all of the advice above is good
but if you are going to push that engine and wanna go fast launch or take of at about 3000 to 4000 rpms. Hold the clutch down, put the car in first gear rev to the rpms of above slowly let off the clutch till you feel it grab. Once it does jump off the clutch if you get right the car should pull pretty hard if you get it wrong you will bog out or stall out, when shifting while trying to go fast do not release the gas, shift gears at redline. If you mess up u will hear your gears, but if you get you will feal some power not alot but a little :)


:yes: Now that's the Kinda Stuff I Wanted to HEAR ! :yes: :bandit:

[Jakethesnake]

NOw that were talking about shifting:
When i shift into second it takes a little more by my hand to put it into gear...I live in Vermont so i know the cold does play a factor in it....but could it be something else??

[MacRulzMan]

That's most likely your syncro' spinning the transmission. If you force it, you risk grinding (and eventually stripping) the gear and even destroying your syncro.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by Accord Man

My questions will be answered tonight.
:yes:

Hey JP, did you ever consults the go.ds on this one? I'm really curious to see what you found.

[Accord Man]

I did..

Here's how it is. When going downhill, the revs increase because of the camshaft rotating faster (and the cam makes the pistons run quicker).

The O2 sensor tells the ECU how much is beeing sent/used and depending on that, the throttle body is opened.

Basically fuel depends on O2.

Now here's the really funky part, when going downhill in 2nd gear (foot off the throttle) and rpm is at 4k -- More fuel is being burned than when the car is at a stop (neutral), and you press the accelerator and hold it at 4k.

This is because of the load its fighting. But you have to look at it as a negative load. You know? Like going the opposite direction.


Thats it.. I hope I explained it well.

:wave:

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Great JP, thanks for the explanation :cool:

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
Great JP, thanks for the explanation :cool:

No prob..

I should have posted this earlier.. BUt I was busy, and couldnt activate my brain to rethink all of this..

:cool:

[Trixta6]

Originally posted by Maxvla
lol.. that is a f*cked up signature trixta.


LoL... I know



4jacks... Welcoming ME to the board? LoL... Nah really, I'v been here for a while. Just not on very much due to some medical stuff.

[4jacks]

OK ... I think you said that I'll save gas, by going down hill in nuetral and using the brakes but i'm not sure. But I'm pretty sure it's going to work that way anyway so Thanks again!

[Accord Man]

Well ya for sure.. If your car is in neutral, engine at idle speed.

you wont burn more gas, thant whe you're at idle.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

But going downhill in neutral will really eat your brakes... I know you said you get them replaced for free though, so I guess its up to you. It makes it much harder to stop though.

[4jacks]

Yea... but I always had to use my brakes in an automatic, it's not like I had a choice, I dont think my engine would down shift unless i took the overdrive off to put it back in third, so for me it's like Normal brake wear.

Plus, i dont brake down hill... unless the guy in front of me is riding his brakes.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

In your auto, you were in gear, assisting the car in braking. Putting it in neutral means no gear is engaged, which is different. Most people will do a combo of downshifting and braking when you need to stop going downhill, they don't just downshift.

[Tuaca05]

What are you talking about with this "shift at 2000" crap!?!??

If you shift at 2000 rpm (especially into 4th or 5th) you are not going to move! This would put the rpm's at about 1000 for the next gear! As a Mechanical Engineering major, i have to say not only is that ridiculous, its also bad for the motor, believe it or not.

Maybe if you drive a diesel powered truck that redlines at 3000, then you could shift at 2000, but otherwise, not a good idea!

[4jacks]

:D :D LOL :D :D

It's not that Bad.... Sometimes when I'm in 4th and chillin moving about 40 mph i'll stick it in fifth! The car works just fine. It sure as Hell doesn't STOP. Rofl .... beside the owner's manual say's a Billion Times "drive in the Highest Gear that lets the engine run and accelerate smoothly." That's exactly what it says. When I'm in 5th doing about 40 the car runs smoothly at that speed, Its really sticky trying to accelerate though, then you need to downshift.

Besides the owner's Manual's recommended shifting points have you shifting at like 2200 rpms ...

[Accord Man]

Originally posted by Tuaca05
What are you talking about with this "shift at 2000" crap!?!??

If you shift at 2000 rpm (especially into 4th or 5th) you are not going to move! This would put the rpm's at about 1000 for the next gear! As a Mechanical Engineering major, i have to say not only is that ridiculous, its also bad for the motor, believe it or not.

Maybe if you drive a diesel powered truck that redlines at 3000, then you could shift at 2000, but otherwise, not a good idea!



Since I'm the one who said that crap. .Let me ask you to explain why its so bad?!

I'm not studying in that field and did not conduct any tests to validate the theory.. What I said was based on an article that appeared in one of the 99-00 Road & Track issues.

In that article, they conducted the tests on 98 3 series BMW.

[MacRulzMan]

Originally posted by Tuaca05
What are you talking about with this "shift at 2000" crap!?!??

If you shift at 2000 rpm (especially into 4th or 5th) you are not going to move! This would put the rpm's at about 1000 for the next gear! As a Mechanical Engineering major, i have to say not only is that ridiculous, its also bad for the motor, believe it or not.

Maybe if you drive a diesel powered truck that redlines at 3000, then you could shift at 2000, but otherwise, not a good idea!

Perhaps you should change educational institutions, then, as that's just plain wrong :)

True, shifting at 2000 isn't exactly going to win the Indy for you, but it's by no means foolhardy. If you have reached your appropriate speed (or would rather sacrifice the time spent getting there for the sake of gas mileage), shifting in the lower rpm's is just fine, and saves wear on your engine. 1000 rpm is not too low for your engine, even as a Honda. Honda's idle at about 600, and 1000 is far enough away to not lug the engine when doing light acceleration. If you're flooring it, you don't need to be shifting that low, but a light foot can do just fine with it.

[4jacks]

Ok.... I got it all figured Out

Tuaca05 was thinking I was Normally Shifting at 22000 rpms
so naturally 2000 would be too low

Refer to page 2

:D :yes: :D :yes: :D

[MacRulzMan]

Originally posted by 4jacks
Ok.... I got it all figured Out

Tuaca05 was thinking I was Normally Shifting at 22000 rpms
so naturally 2000 would be too low

Refer to page 2

:D :yes: :D :yes: :D

Err, not to be contrary, but I don't think any mechanical engineer would think you're normally shifting at 22k RPM in a production car, as very few even reach the double-digit thousands without basically self-destructing, and the Civic is not one of them ;)

[4jacks]

Originally posted by MacRulzMan


Err, not to be contrary, but I don't think any mechanical engineer would think you're normally shifting at 22k RPM in a production car, as very few even reach the double-digit thousands without basically self-destructing, and the Civic is not one of them ;)


Ahh..... But he's only a Engineering Major.. as Am I .. And I am the Idiot who told everyone I was shifting 22,000 rpms.... and besides I was only joking

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Hey whats up all. I'm D and I'm new to HS. I figured this would be the best board to post on cuz my civic was the first 5 speed I had ever driven. I am the proud owner (well I'm makin the payments every month to own the car) of a 2001 EX eternal blue Civic. I LOVE it :kiss:!!! The morning after I got my car I had to drive it to work. Keep in mind I never drove stick before....it was a LONG drive to work that day. Now I'm a "pro" haha...compared to my friends I am! and 94_Accord_EX...you are so right...I hate drivin automatics now. NEVER again for me!!!

[4jacks]

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX
Hey whats up all. I'm D and I'm new to HS. I figured this would be the best board to post on cuz my civic was the first 5 speed I had ever driven. I am the proud owner (well I'm makin the payments every month to own the car) of a 2001 EX eternal blue Civic. I LOVE it :kiss:!!! The morning after I got my car I had to drive it to work. Keep in mind I never drove stick before....it was a LONG drive to work that day. Now I'm a "pro" haha...compared to my friends I am! and 94_Accord_EX...you are so right...I hate drivin automatics now. NEVER again for me!!!



Welcome to HS D

I've had plenty of those Long Drives to Work =)

Happy honda'ing

[4jacks]

:yes: :yes:
YES !!!! I'm just proud that when the monthly announcements came out I had started the Post with both the Most replies AND the Least (0)

I'm just all teared up ;(

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by 4jacks
:yes: :yes:
YES !!!! I'm just proud that when the monthly announcements came out I had started the Post with both the Most replies AND the Least (0)

I'm just all teared up ;(


Come on man, don't whore it up.

[4jacks]

I'm not a whore ...



I just get around :eek:

[midjjj]

Just so you know, all clutches are diff so you'll have to get used to it. Whenever you start to feel some power behind the gas pedal, let off more on the clutch and give more gas. And as far as what 94_AcCoRd_EX said about keeping your foot off the clutch while driving, that is key. Its riding your clutch and its a great way to burn that thing up. Enjoy your honda!!!

[4jacks]

Originally posted by midjjj
Just so you know, all clutches are diff so you'll have to get used to it. Whenever you start to feel some power behind the gas pedal, let off more on the clutch and give more gas. And as far as what 94_AcCoRd_EX said about keeping your foot off the clutch while driving, that is key. Its riding your clutch and its a great way to burn that thing up. Enjoy your honda!!!


Yea.. I heard that , riding you clutch was bad, and by all means, i just rest my foot on the foot rest,

But what exactly does it do... I really can't see the great harm on putting a little pressure on the clutch ?!?!?!?!?

[MacRulzMan]

It causes friction between the plates in the clutch, which wears them down. This friction is what allows your car to start, as the mechanical energy put out by your engine is converted to partial thermal energy (becuase of the friction) and the rest is mechanical energy sent to the wheels.