How to save local governments big money

[GT40FIED]

So I've got this idea on how to save local governments big money and screw the federal government in the process. Are you ready? Good.

Stop providing "essential services" to churches and other money laundering schemes who don't pay taxes. If you've got the money to build a 10,000 max capacity mega church, you've got the money to hire your own fire department. That...or pray for rain. Your church got vandalised? Tough shit...don't call the cops. Head over to Sherman Williams and buy the paint to cover up that shit. I can only presume that the government offers tax exempt status to churches because they think that all people are for churches. Well...I'm not, so it's time for them to pay up. So many people fork over their hard earned money every week to some church so they can feel better about themselves and meanwhile the churches pay nothing on said donations. You know what that's called? Attrition. Attrition is when you're not really sorry for what you've done, but you make a gesture in atonement anyway. It's just like all those people who call themselves christians but every weekend try to fuck anything that moves. They say they're sorry, but continue doing it week after week. If you were truely sorry, you wouldn't do it anymore. So from now on out, I propose that churches and other "non-profit" groups either pay up or shut up. I'm sick of paying taxes to make sure their house of bullshit is safe.

[ChrisCantSkate]

move out of america... seriously. first of all most of a chruches money is through private donations, second cities have budgets that they must follow when dividing up tax dollars to ensure you dont sourse out a job to someone for more than its worth. like a $10,000 hammer or 25,000 toliet seat. im sure theres tons of things you as a tax payer use that other people dont. everyone pays taxes, every persons tax dollar isnt turned around and spent the best possible way for each person, they do it for the WHOLE community. you know how much more time and money it would be to try and see how everyone wants their tax money spent... horrible

[Robert]

GT do leave America, it would be better off without the likes of you and your friends.

Your extreemly judgemental and not tollorant at all. I find that rather hipocritical of you.

As for why some Christians have trouble following the faith so closely; they're flawed, just like you are. However they're not trying to negatively effect your life.

You got issues, and it would be for the better of everyone if you would shut up. So take your misguided anger, sadness and recentment for the life you lead and put it in a box. Don't open it again around anyone or post anymore of your internet vomit on this board.

[Wren57]

Damn Robert, that was harsh. Can't say I disagree with either of you though.

[GT40FIED]

GT do leave America, it would be better off without the likes of you and your friends.

Your extreemly judgemental and not tollorant at all. I find that rather hipocritical of you.

As for why some Christians have trouble following the faith so closely; they're flawed, just like you are. However they're not trying to negatively effect your life.

You got issues, and it would be for the better of everyone if you would shut up. So take your misguided anger, sadness and recentment for the life you lead and put it in a box. Don't open it again around anyone or post anymore of your internet vomit on this board.

This from a Canadian. Hate to break it to you, but I'm not going anywhere. If you think that fixing what you deem to be problems in a given system is to run away then...well...I guess that's why you live in Canada and want to move here. Hate to break it to you, but I personify this country a lot more than you might think. I've spent my whole life working twice as hard as most other people just to get to the same place. I'm not sure how you gathered that my friends are anything like me, but...well...you're not the brightest bulb in the box so whatever. You know...maybe I am extremely judgemental, not tolerant and hypocritical (italics used to correct your spelling errors). Then again, it's probably just you. But being judgemental is part of being a human being. We measure people and things up all day every day and anyone who says they don't is a liar. Take yourself for instance. You don't agree with much of anything I have to say, but I'm sure as soon as you see that I've posted you just have to click on it just so you can get "offended" by my difference of opinion (which is fairly weak willed and servile in and of itself). Don't like it? Don't fuckin' read it. Do you sit around watching shit you don't want to on TV? No. Though I assure you, your witty banter will surely be missed. Or not. Moving on...

As for that last little psuedo-paragraph...I actually disagree with Wren. I don't think it was harsh. I think it was moronic, childish, and above all judgemental. Bad christian! No jesus! Seriously...I didn't direct anything at you, yet what you posted was completely inappropriate. It's the kind of thing that you like to ramble on and on about me doing. I might have actually gotten offended if it hadn't been so half assed and genuinely angry. It's just a computer, man.

[Wren57]

^Nice rant against Robert. However, you failed to make a valid point about anything (other than personal attack) in both post #1 and in the post above this one. Are you trying to get on people's nerves or just too stupid/ADD to stay on topic?

you've got the money to hire your own fire department. That...or pray for rain.

If your house burned down and the local fire dept didn't put it out, you'd be the FIRST to bitch about it. Am I wrong? Prove it, burn down your house and don't call the fire dept. Don't wanna burn down your own house? Maybe Karma will get around to it eventually.

[Robert]

This from a Canadian. Hate to break it to you, but I'm not going anywhere. If you think that fixing what you deem to be problems in a given system is to run away then...well...I guess that's why you live in Canada and want to move here. Hate to break it to you, but I personify this country a lot more than you might think. I've spent my whole life working twice as hard as most other people just to get to the same place. I'm not sure how you gathered that my friends are anything like me, but...well...you're not the brightest bulb in the box so whatever. You know...maybe I am extremely judgemental, not tolerant and hypocritical (italics used to correct your spelling errors). Then again, it's probably just you. But being judgemental is part of being a human being. We measure people and things up all day every day and anyone who says they don't is a liar. Take yourself for instance. You don't agree with much of anything I have to say, but I'm sure as soon as you see that I've posted you just have to click on it just so you can get "offended" by my difference of opinion (which is fairly weak willed and servile in and of itself). Don't like it? Don't fuckin' read it. Do you sit around watching shit you don't want to on TV? No. Though I assure you, your witty banter will surely be missed. Or not. Moving on...

As for that last little psuedo-paragraph...I actually disagree with Wren. I don't think it was harsh. I think it was moronic, childish, and above all judgemental. Bad christian! No jesus! Seriously...I didn't direct anything at you, yet what you posted was completely inappropriate. It's the kind of thing that you like to ramble on and on about me doing. I might have actually gotten offended if it hadn't been so half assed and genuinely angry. It's just a computer, man.

Can you control your erge to vomit all over my screen?

If you worked twice as hard as everyone else for reason I wont sling in your face them I'm supprised you are so quick to judge others lacking because they are different.

Churches give back to their local commities until just about any other single organization. Many recent non-profit organizations base their mission statements of Christian beliefs. Look into why their are 12 steps in AA or check out a local food bank. My church here in Toronto, feeds 1200 people every week; coming out of my donations to the church.

If you want to talk about the reasons for my moving, you can ask me that in another read.

Stay on point.

Your rants, and thats all they ever are. Are filled with anger, and misguided anger. I suspect from your twisted view of religion you have had some bad experiences and/or you hate God for the way you are or the things that have happened in your life. What the reason is for you to figure out.

I'm sorry if thats the case, but getting angry about it, posting crap bashing Christianity and sugguesting they are a drain on your local town is a joke. If anything you should be angry with wal-mart for the drain on your local town.

What I think you should go do is look into a doctor situation who can treat you for your ADD, and see a shrink over your inner anger issues. Cause you have issues. Look at a majority of your threads you start and you'll just see what I'm talking about.

As for not being right with God, that would be between Him and me. "all things are possible with God' so I'm not concerned with your views on how my posting my differ from your thoughts on what the bible says to saying such things. When you bash on my religion I will not hold my tounge.

BTW God loves you. PM me with any other question you have an going to church, I'll be happy to send you to one in your local area.

[GT40FIED]

Yes, because the real problem is that I don't know anything about religion. Forget that I was raised by an ex priest and a reformist catholic mother. Forget that I've spent a good part of my life studying theology to find anything that closely meshes with my own beliefs. The fact that I'm still looking at 24 should tell you just how long I've been at it. But you're right...I know zip about religion...especially christianity.:rolleyes:

Why the fuck would I set my own house on fire and not call the FD? I pay my fucking taxes which is more than I can say for any church. That's really pretty inane.

As for a "personal attack" against Rob...quid pro quo. Don't be a douche if you can't take some in return. If he would've responded appropriately I would have done so in kind, so quit crying.

If a church's job is to do god's work by giving back to the community, why is there so much money left over to buy bigger and better churches? Does god's will include extravagant light shows for X-mas and Easter and so much seating that they need giant plasma screens just so the people in the cheap seats can see the preacher/priest? No. It's all a competition. Rather than doing "god's work" they try to pull more members in and see who can do it bigger and better. If you can afford all of that shit, you can afford to pay taxes. I'm not denying that some churches do good things. But weigh it against their personal interests and you might be on the losing end of that one.

I'm not sure why you're so concerned with my mental health Rob. I don't have ADD...never have. I won't apologize for having a lot of ideas...but I'm sure you're not used to running into people who actually think. I don't really have anger issues...I'm actually a pretty laid back guy. I will not, however, sit idly by and watch shit that pisses me off and not say anything about it. If you want to call me intolerant, that's cool. However slandering someone for not believing the same thing you do seems pretty fucking intolerant, doesn't it? And by the way, that's what all of the shit you're trying to convince me is wrong with myself is...slander. You don't know me. You know a screen name on a computer 2000 miles away, yet you presume to know how I think and feel. Good thinkin' there, champ.

You see...to feel wronged by god, I'd have to acknowledge him/her/it in the first place. Since I don't (at least not in the same manner you do), how can I possibly feel wronged by god? Likewise, how can I hate someone I don't believe exists? I know sunday school and CCD classes fill your head with trite bullshit about how anyone who doesn't believe is misguided or full of hate. Trust me, I've been there. But they've excluded free will from the equation. There a lot of things in this world that are hard to explain without some sort of supernatural force...but the flipside of that coin is also true. To completely exclude on side of that is just insane. So insane, I may try to get religious fanaticism introduced into the DSM IV (that would be the "diagnostic and statistics manual of mental health disorders").

So, in closing, I'll just say I'm as right with your god as I'll ever be...which is not at all. The only difference is that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm not foolish enough to think that I can change someone's deep seeded beliefs into anything. Apparently you don't share such clarity.

[Wren57]

Steve... the reason you reject religion seems a teenage-styled rebellious nature against your extremely religous parents. Makes sense from a psychological perspective. And you may say I don't know you, but I come from a bloodline of psychiatrists and have always been told I read people extremely well, so while I may be somewhat wrong, I'm not entirely stupid either.

Have a seat on the sofa and lets talk. Did you get along with your parents?

~~~

And as for nobody here knowing you, thats true, we don't know you as well as your friends or family... BUT it is easy to put together a picture of the type of person someone is based on the views they post... even the type of music you listen to. Sure to classify you as a person based on your views and likes/dislikes seems stereotyping, and it is, but when you stereotype based on 20+ criteria it becomes easier to pinpoint the type of person someone is...

[GT40FIED]

Actually my parents never pushed religion on me...or anyone else for that matter. They were (and are) devout, but always encouraged me to find my own way. I'm sure my mom would be happier if I went to church every sunday, but she knows that's not me so she doesn't push it. I did go to church until I was 13 or 14 (but even at the age of 7 or 8 I hated getting up early on my days off from school to go there). Some people just feel it. Others like me don't. I seriously don't get why some people can't understand that. I've looked at the pros and cons of both sides and decided where I stand. Not liking it is certainly anyone's right...but they also need to understand that no amount of standing on a soap box will convince me otherwise and it really makes them look like an ass.

[JDMFantasy2k]

wow interesting thread developing here. I'm not about to dive head first into this, but here's my 2 cents.

Not trying to come off as a religious buff, but steve have you ever truly, given god (or religion) a chance? Like truly, whole-heartedly try and accept it and see what happens? I mean if it truly isn't for you, then surely you've lost nothing. I feel it kinda goes along the lines of "don't knock it till you try it", because religion (and god for that matter) have changed the lives of millions of people for the better. You need to acknowledge god before you can talk t him.

Anyway, my second thought is, even if your "great plan" were to be instituted. What would it accomplish? It's not like every church in america is indulging on society's resources and weakening our economy/government.

[ebpda9]

religion is just a bunch of horse shit anyways. it's only a freaking way to brainwash people, but if you chose to believe i won't prevent you from doing that. I do just fine knocking god everytime i have a chance. and yeah, i'd be extremely pissed if my house caught fire from the burning church next door.

[GT40FIED]

wow interesting thread developing here. I'm not about to dive head first into this, but here's my 2 cents.

Not trying to come off as a religious buff, but steve have you ever truly, given god (or religion) a chance? Like truly, whole-heartedly try and accept it and see what happens? I mean if it truly isn't for you, then surely you've lost nothing. I feel it kinda goes along the lines of "don't knock it till you try it", because religion (and god for that matter) have changed the lives of millions of people for the better. You need to acknowledge god before you can talk t him.

Anyway, my second thought is, even if your "great plan" were to be instituted. What would it accomplish? It's not like every church in america is indulging on society's resources and weakening our economy/government.

Yeah, actually...after my dad died. I was trying hard to search for answers. You know...the age old question of why good men die while bad ones are let alone. I'm sure you can identify better than most with this, Will, seeing as how you were and are in a very similar situation. It's not that I wasn't talking to god, but I got the distinct impression that no one was listening. Needless to say I still don't have my answers. That's not to say I don't believe in anything at all...I just don't claim to be wise enough to be able to quantify it and therefor I won't worship it. This, to me, is where every religion falls short. They claim to have the answers to unanswerable questions. If that helps you sleep at night, that's great. The problem is that a lot of people take those "answers" literally and force their thoughts on other people/government/family pets/school children. Just do a quick google search on Kansas' most hated native son, Fred Phelps, and see what I mean.

My "plan", as it were, is really more a matter of principle than anything I would ever actually intend to do. Put into context, if I don't work I don't expect a paycheck (some people do...fuck them). Churches take in what I'm sure is billions and billions of dollars every year and while they might give back, all I ever see are bigger and "better" churches being built while they get off scott free from the government. Hell...Bush even decided to give them MORE tax free money through "faith-based initiatives". It's just like the took churches in and left everyone else out in the cold. To me, that's just not right.

Like the gospel of St. Thomas says (though most hardcore christians denounce it as gnostic writing to their own gain), god isn't in a "mansion of wood and stone". "Lift a stone and you will find me. Split a piece of wood and I am there". I don't feel the need to congregate to assess my beliefs and I'm not sure anyone else should either. If churches didn't exist, would you stop believing? No one should reap the benefit without paying the man (unless, of course, it applies to everyone else, too).

[JDMFantasy2k]

Yeah, actually...after my dad died. I was trying hard to search for answers. You know...the age old question of why good men die while bad ones are let alone. I'm sure you can identify better than most with this, Will, seeing as how you were and are in a very similar situation. It's not that I wasn't talking to god, but I got the distinct impression that no one was listening. Needless to say I still don't have my answers. That's not to say I don't believe in anything at all...I just don't claim to be wise enough to be able to quantify it and therefor I won't worship it. This, to me, is where every religion falls short. They claim to have the answers to unanswerable questions. If that helps you sleep at night, that's great. The problem is that a lot of people take those "answers" literally and force their thoughts on other people/government/family pets/school children. Just do a quick google search on Kansas' most hated native son, Fred Phelps, and see what I mean.

My "plan", as it were, is really more a matter of principle than anything I would ever actually intend to do. Put into context, if I don't work I don't expect a paycheck (some people do...fuck them). Churches take in what I'm sure is billions and billions of dollars every year and while they might give back, all I ever see are bigger and "better" churches being built while they get off scott free from the government. Hell...Bush even decided to give them MORE tax free money through "faith-based initiatives". It's just like the took churches in and left everyone else out in the cold. To me, that's just not right.

Like the gospel of St. Thomas says (though most hardcore christians denounce it as gnostic writing to their own gain), god isn't in a "mansion of wood and stone". "Lift a stone and you will find me. Split a piece of wood and I am there". I don't feel the need to congregate to assess my beliefs and I'm not sure anyone else should either. If churches didn't exist, would you stop believing? No one should reap the benefit without paying the man (unless, of course, it applies to everyone else, too).

Indeed we are in a similar situation, as my mother is hardcore with christan beliefs, and my father wasn't before he passed away. Consequently after his death I too turned my back to god, refusing to accept what had happened, and unable to find answers. However i could only deny him so long. Denying god caught up with me, (and i'm not one to push religion on anyone or whatnot) but i can tell you that i have talked to god and he is as real me or you. Now i may not have a solid answer as to why my father is no longer with me, but that's not god fault. People choose their own destinys, and if you choose to live a seccular life and do things that arent' pleasing to god, then why should he do anything for us? My case in point, i had been doing a lot of things i shouldn't have been, and as a result, i kept on getting sick. I usually only get a cold once a year, and it's usually not bad. However starting last fall i came down with this horrible sinus infection for over a week. Then it was followed by the most awful stomach flu i ever had. Now believe it or not, but my mom told me that i needed to get things right with god, and i didn't have anything to lose so i did. Now you won't believe this, but i opened up my bible (which i hadn't touched in months) and the page i opened to completley applied to me; there was no coincidence. Now i know you're going to say something like "oh you could interpret any message for your situation", however that book is thousands of pages long, and this message was exactly what i needed to hear. Now that is one of many things like that, that has happened to me and i'm not going to bother continuing on, but i haven't been sick since. Furthermore my mom hasn't been sick in at least 4 years....

Now imagine if all churches were shut down, destroyed, whatever. Would people still worship? Of course they would. Ever heard of the pilgrims? Oh yeah they basically started a whole new country so they would worship the way they wanted. Granted many people may not be as religious as back in those times, but i can guarantee you that people would form churches of their own, in their houses and whatnot. You can't stop people from meeting and sharing their faith. Why do you think churches are becomming bigger and better steve? It's not necesarily the ammount of cash they generate. They get bigger so they can accomodate more people. Case in point, the church i'm a member of started off in 1987 in a little building that probably held no more than 150 people. It was just a little room, with a tranceparancy projector and one piano. Since then our church has grown to over 300 members, and we now have a new building with hi-def projectors and a full 9 piece band. Now you'll probably bitch about how my church is greedy or evades taxes and whatnot. But my church has made sacrifices. Which we were saving money to build the building (which was not cheap) the church was actually giving money to a family in need. This family couldnt' afford to heat their house or put food on the table, and has 3 kids. The church supported them, until they could support themselves (i don't remember what happened, i think the husband got a good paying job or something). Even still, with bank loans and all our church could not afford all the expenses of the building, and some annonymous donors donated over $30,000 to our church. To me that kinda sounds like the mantra "what goes around comes around". So: church was saving money, people needed money, church sacrificed and gave money, church couldn't afford to finish building, someone donates a rediculous sum of money. If you ask me, i think it all depends on the church, some probably do lose sight of the goal and forget that the reason you go there is to worship god. My church can seem rather lavious with stuff, but that's just to help everyone's worship experience.

Moreover you can't just bash on churches because they're exempt from taxation. What about other NPO's that generate billions. Ever heard of the red cross? Helping people in disasters and whatnot. Actually, that reminds me that my church donated (i'm not exactly sure how much) a large sum of money to the red cross for the hurricane katrina effort and for some other disaster (forgot what it was). The point is, even if you were to tax these organizations, how could you recognize a benefit in the government that would outweigh the damage that taxation would do to these organizations.

In my opinion, if you want to generate some cashflow for this country. Then get congress to stop okaying president bush's ever wish in desire. It seems every day he's in that chamber asking for another few billion dollars, that's whats killing us.

well steve just some food for thought.

[ChrisCantSkate]

well said. chruchs do give back... thats why/how they are a NPO

[AzCivic]

everyone who attends a church pays taxes, churches don't make a profit. why would a church pay taxes??? I guess any non profit organization that helps others should pay taxes as well? (on what they would pay taxes on is something you'd have to point out since they're all non profit) Or just the ones you don't like? GROW UP!

[JDMFantasy2k]

everyone who attends a church pays taxes, churches don't make a profit

yeah i forgot to mention that, good point.

[GT40FIED]

Well Will, I'm not going to quote your post because it'd be like *BAM*...half a page. Needless to say most of that is your business and yours alone. I don't really know that I can comment on your beliefs because...well...they're yours. No one's coming after you for them, certainly not me. Everyone has a reason for believing whatever it is they believe and that's cool. But creating a tax free environment for religious purposes is dangerous (to me) for a few reasons.

First of all, many churches have practices that discriminate against people/things. The catholic church won't allow women to become priests. Just about any church condemns gays no matter how devout their faith is. Many churches still preach against things like interracial dating. I'm not sure the government should condone let alone help support things like that. There's a laundry list of things that many churches rail against that are perfectly legal and indeed part of our freedom (of course not all churches rock it so hardcore, but you get the idea). I'm not saying that people shouldn't believe whatever they want, I'm saying that maybe it's not a good idea for the government to support it by giving them a free ride (unless the government wants to take a stance against these things as well...but fat chance).

Secondly, who gets to decide who is and who isn't a church? Contrary to popular belief, not all churches are christian and not all churches do good works, but they still retain the benefits allowed by the government. Take Scientology for example. It's recognized as a religious institution which thereby gives it tax exempt status regardless of the fact that it threatens violence against those who leave it (through the "fair game doctorine") and publicly humiliates anyone who tries to help others leave the cult. Oops...did I say cult? Anyway, the point is that scientology rakes in huge amounts of cash as people try to become a "clear" or an "OT" and none of it has any clear benefit to anyone...regardless of what Tom Cruise says. For fuck's sake, they locked a girl in a closet for 17 days until she starved to death just to keep her quiet. Yes, this is an extreme case, but I don't think that the churches who don't provide community services should reap the same rewards as those that do. I mean any crazy asshole can make their own religion.

As for other NPOs...don't even get me started. The Red Cross is probably the biggest...and it's pathetically mismanaged. The amount of money they take in versus the money they give out is phenominally unbalanced. They've even been the subject of federal inquiries and public scrutiny but no one will ever speak against them because...well...they're The Red Cross. I don't think it's necessary to eliminate the tax exempt status for EVERYONE. I do, however, think it's very important to take a closer look at what exactly the organization gives back for what it takes in. Ideally a NPO would break even...taking in enough money to employ it's people and do whatever it is that it does (with maybe a little left over for possible expansion or some kind of emergency). But that's often not the case. Many NPOs take in large sums of money and just hang onto it even if there's work to be done.

I can only speak of churches in respect to catholic churches since that's where I got my theological education. I realize other churches are structured MUCH differently, but I take particular exception with the catholic church. In my opinion it doesn't qualify as a NPO. They do profit since, much like The Red Cross, they often take in much more money than they give back. That's known as profit. A lot of that money goes into the arch diocese and god only knows what they do with it.

[AzCivic]

I can only speak of churches in respect to catholic churches since that's where I got my theological education.

that could be the problem right there. :hmmm:

[JDMFantasy2k]

Well Will, I'm not going to quote your post because it'd be like *BAM*...half a page. Needless to say most of that is your business and yours alone. I don't really know that I can comment on your beliefs because...well...they're yours. No one's coming after you for them, certainly not me. Everyone has a reason for believing whatever it is they believe and that's cool. But creating a tax free environment for religious purposes is dangerous (to me) for a few reasons.

First of all, many churches have practices that discriminate against people/things. The catholic church won't allow women to become priests. Just about any church condemns gays no matter how devout their faith is. Many churches still preach against help supportthings like interracial dating. I'm not sure the government should condone let alone things like that. There's a laundry list of things that many churches rail against that are perfectly legal and indeed part of our freedom (of course not all churches rock it so hardcore, but you get the idea). I'm not saying that people shouldn't believe whatever they want, I'm saying that maybe it's not a good idea for the government to support it by giving them a free ride (unless the government wants to take a stance against these things as well...but fat chance).

Secondly, who gets to decide who is and who isn't a church? Contrary to popular belief, not all churches are christian and not all churches do good works, but they still retain the benefits allowed by the government. Take Scientology for example. It's recognized as a religious institution which thereby gives it tax exempt status regardless of the fact that it threatens violence against those who leave it (through the "fair game doctorine") and publicly humiliates anyone who tries to help others leave the cult. Oops...did I say cult? Anyway, the point is that scientology rakes in huge amounts of cash as people try to become a "clear" or an "OT" and none of it has any clear benefit to anyone...regardless of what Tom Cruise says. For fuck's sake, they locked a girl in a closet for 17 days until she starved to death just to keep her quiet. Yes, this is an extreme case, but I don't think that the churches who don't provide community services should reap the same rewards as those that do. I mean any crazy asshole can make their own religion.

As for other NPOs...don't even get me started. The Red Cross is probably the biggest...and it's pathetically mismanaged. The amount of money they take in versus the money they give out is phenominally unbalanced. They've even been the subject of federal inquiries and public scrutiny but no one will ever speak against them because...well...they're The Red Cross. I don't think it's necessary to eliminate the tax exempt status for EVERYONE. I do, however, think it's very important to take a closer look at what exactly the organization gives back for what it takes in. Ideally a NPO would break even...taking in enough money to employ it's people and do whatever it is that it does (with maybe a little left over for possible expansion or some kind of emergency). But that's often not the case. Many NPOs take in large sums of money and just hang onto it even if there's work to be done.

I can only speak of churches in respect to catholic churches since that's where I got my theological education. I realize other churches are structured MUCH differently, but I take particular exception with the catholic church. In my opinion it doesn't qualify as a NPO. They do profit since, much like The Red Cross, they often take in much more money than they give back. That's known as profit. A lot of that money goes into the arch diocese and god only knows what they do with it.

Some good points. Just trying to give you some insight to my experiences and possibly some inspiration. However churches are like people, none of them are perfect. And like you said there are many religions and whatnot. However i feel that christianity as a whole does not "condemn" gays or interracial marrige or the like. For the most part they do not support homosexuality and gay marriage because the bible says that man and woman will be wed, and feel that it's against gods will. As for interracial marriage i feel that most christians support that as they believe god created one race (humans). The misconception is in denomination. God didn't create denomonations (catholocism, judeasm, prostants, baptists etc), the people did. This started back when a ruler would come to power, and would decided to change the guidelines of the religion to his liking. Chrisianity in it's purist form is usually defined as following god through his word.

The second part of you post is absolutely correct. The bittersweet thing, is that this is america. Our country was founded on the belief of god, and freedom (of religion and basically everything else). Therefore you have millions of christians screaming to put the church back into the state, and the other people saying that it deny's (or intrudes) on peoples freedoms, which relates to scientolism (or whatever it's called). Which brings me to my point, you could consider a group like the KKK a religion (not sure if they do or not) if you wanted to, and could probably file it as a church because of our country's enermous religious freedoms. Now i think that the government would rather not get involved at all, and just say fuck it, don't tax any of them. Rather than deciding which ones are true NPO's and legimitately give back to society, which would also run the risk of discriminating groups and intertwining the government with religion and opening up a whole can of shit.

[ChrisCantSkate]

They do profit since, much like The Red Cross, they often take in much more money than they give back. That's known as profit. A lot of that money goes into the arch diocese and god only knows what they do with it.

Profit - (prft) - The return received on a business undertaking after all operating expenses have been met.
1. The return received on an investment after all charges have been paid. Often used in the plural.
2. The rate of increase in the net worth of a business enterprise in a given accounting period.
3. Income received from investments or property.
4. The amount received for a commodity or service in excess of the original cost.

now by those definitions you can take in money and use it to pay your staff, pay your bills, pay for your building, hold "activities" for your parish, and then give the remainder to charity or whatever other organization that needs the money and still be a non-profit.

they are not "turning" a profit just because they have to pay employees and the bills, now if they ran it like a business, minimized costs, held onto and invested the money for the purpous of increasing the stockholders share, then they are a for-profit org. since churches have no business value, do not build net worth, and dont pay their CEO/CFO/chairman/president/etc equvilient in % earnings then by definition they are a NPO... correct?

by building huge churches worht millions of dollars you at least see where a chunck of the money is going. and some people want to have a nice church instead of a hole in the wall, so they donate money to their church to help them pay the bills... just cause they are tax-exempt dosnt mean that they get everything for free. they still operate with that good old dollar.


as for who is and isnt a church... the gov decides. if your an established religion, opposed to a cult, which is basically a religion that dosnt get the gov benefits, then you apply to the government for your tax-exempt status. its really simple, and with alittle research into the business of NPOs you'd understand alot better how it all works. we touched this in a few of my accounting classes, how NPOs work and all, but im a little rusty so im not going to try and explane any more than i did.

NPOs being mismanaged is not very supprising. they are not for profit, so there is no modivation from a business standpoint to be economical in their decisions. they use what they have for what they need at that moment. corperations work so well because they think long term about the pros and cons of spending money to increase company value, a NPO such as the red cross may send and pay 100 people to go somewhere that is in need of help, then dump money on the supplies they can use not thinking of well are we spending too much so our stock dosnt drop or are we doing this or that.... no they think demand says we need 45 widgets today for all 45 people who want one, so we will buy them today. a corperation will think how many are we going to see the biggest return on, and if we buy less we can charge more than X amount. how can we minimize our labor costs.. ect. qa whole slurry of new issues that a NPO dosnt even consider

its all different ways of doing business. you wana make money then your efficient. you want to help people your gonna spend as you see fit at that moment. thats my theory on how tons is wasted through NPOs... but no one else would do it

[GT40FIED]

Haha. You said widgets. Reminds me of that Rodney Dangerfield movie "Back To School". Anyway...yeah...back to the thing.

My point is basically thus...NPOs can exist and it's great that they do so long as they're held accountable. I forget which branch of the government hands out the tax status, but I'm sure the process is pretty well flawed. If I turned in two applications...one for "Brotherhood Of Christ Pet Hospital" and another for "Stupid Unwed Mothers Get Abortions For Free", I'm sure one would be looked at a whole helluva lot closer than the other (name oddities not withstanding). I really think that NPOs...ANY of them...should be subject to a yearly audit to prove what they're doing with the money. If they don't meet a standard, they lose their status.

And Will...the Klan actually did used to enjoy trying to apply for tax exempt status but kept getting rejected. They're a white protestant group and in their hay day (in the way back machine) they actually did community works projects. Scientology too was originally granted NPO status then lost it when it became clear they were all fucking nuts. Then somewhere along the way (in the '80s or early '90s) they were granted said status again despite making no changes. Government stupidity:1, common sense:0.

[ChrisCantSkate]

its actually not signifiacantly flawed, and im pretty sure they get reviewed from time to time to ensure that they arnt making a profit off it. if you can find a case study about any of those claims i'd be happy to debate your theory on the topic

[JDMFantasy2k]

And Will...the Klan actually did used to enjoy trying to apply for tax exempt status but kept getting rejected. They're a white protestant group and in their hay day (in the way back machine) they actually did community works projects. Scientology too was originally granted NPO status then lost it when it became clear they were all fucking nuts. Then somewhere along the way (in the '80s or early '90s) they were granted said status again despite making no changes. Government stupidity:1, common sense:0.

yeah that's what i was trying to get at is that the government doesn't want to play the "who is, and who isnt" of religion, so if you have a legit org the they'd do it. Doesn't surprise me at all.

[Robert]

religion is just a bunch of horse shit anyways. it's only a freaking way to brainwash people, but if you chose to believe i won't prevent you from doing that. I do just fine knocking god everytime i have a chance. and yeah, i'd be extremely pissed if my house caught fire from the burning church next door.

I guess the consumerism you've been brainwashed by is easier to swallow.

[Robert]

Gt - I think your paint a picture with a huge brush. Not only are you over looking details, but you're simply not seeing thigs the way they actually are.

Thank you for writting better.

[GT40FIED]

Well I suppose "the way things are" is a matter of perception. That's merely the way things are to me. I'm not saying that they can't be that way to you. To me this whole thing is extremely flawed. If you don't see it that way, that's cool...but there's no absolute that either of us is right.