Bad day for terrorists...

[Wren57]

http://www.bibleprobe.com/mail_call.jpg

http://www.bibleprobe.com/havingabadday.jpg

http://www.bibleprobe.com/osama-soldier.jpg

http://www.bibleprobe.com/osama-carpet.jpg

http://www.bibleprobe.com/strike-back.jpg

http://www.bibleprobe.com/crazybunch.jpg

[GT40FIED]

I've seen a few of those...and generally I've found that they tend to be quite racist. Seriously...if you posted similar images and reversed the US/terrorist roles, you'd definitely be on someone's watch list. Sure, some of the pics are sort of humerous, but they depict the wrong idea to other people in the world. While the rest of the world (and even people in the US) think that every ten years or so we pick some random crappy country to pick up and slam against a wall just to prove we can, why on earth would you photoshop pics to encourage such an idea? Look at those pics and tell me that they "hate us for our freedom". No...they hate us because we're a bunch of elitist arrogant bastards.

[ChrisCantSkate]

they may hate us but there isnt shit they can do. besides, its the terrorists not the countryfolk. they burn our flags and try to bring hell upon us, i think they can handle a photochoped picture no one takes seriously. although these i didnt even break a smile for..i dunno i think these type of jokes are getting beat like a dead horse

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
besides, its the terrorists not the countryfolk.

This is true...but how many people in this country even try to tell the difference?

[thermal]

buwahahahahahaha

[Robert]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
I've seen a few of those...and generally I've found that they tend to be quite racist. Seriously...if you posted similar images and reversed the US/terrorist roles, you'd definitely be on someone's watch list. Sure, some of the pics are sort of humerous, but they depict the wrong idea to other people in the world. While the rest of the world (and even people in the US) think that every ten years or so we pick some random crappy country to pick up and slam against a wall just to prove we can, why on earth would you photoshop pics to encourage such an idea? Look at those pics and tell me that they "hate us for our freedom". No...they hate us because we're a bunch of elitist arrogant bastards.

Oh calm down there, dont get your panties in a knot.


Wren I liked them.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Robert
Oh calm down there, dont get your panties in a knot.



yeah really, lol.

[Mischief]

I'll admit it, I'm an elitist arrogant bastard. Therefore, I found the pictures to be comedy. :D

[Wren57]

I dont care to argue with people that can't find humor in it... if anyone has a serious problem with it then they are no smarter/better than the rioters killing people over a Danish cartoon and they should rid society of themselves within the next 10 minutes (preferably not by blowing themselves up near other people).

[CD5Passion]

if you burn a flag you are a terrorist

yet did you know the proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it?:D

ironic dont you think

[Robert]

Originally posted by CD5Passion
if you burn a flag you are a terrorist

yet did you know the proper way to dispose of a flag is to burn it?:D

ironic dont you think

No, because in the 'proper way to dispose' of said flag you do not do it in a public setting chatting words of hate towards teh country of the flag.

[AkimboStylee]

i believe thats check and mate, damn it why did you have to post that before i was going to

[nonovurbizniz]

SO the symbolism of those cartoons is cool but the symbolism of burning the flag of a county who's government you disagree with isn't OK?

huh that's interesting.

Other than demeaning their beliefs and history what do any of those cartoons do?... OH that's right they point out that the terrorists are horribly under funded/supplied so why is it that we can't get ANY kind of grip on Iraq... not that we should be there in the first place... but hey it's not like we're going to invade a country like Iran or N. Korea who are an ACTUAL threat and holder of WMD... cuz they can fight back...

Oh and we DEFINATELY wouldn't want to upset the country that raised 16+ of the 9/11 Hijackers... cuz they sell us oil at a rediculous profit IF we kiss their ass' nice enough...

I'll be frank... I'm not offended by any of them at all... but they're not even remotely funny... I mean you could come up with MUCH better material than that.

The only thing that struck me funny is that a bunch of fundi's are tossing around jokes about the koran being a brainwashing tool when they're the one's using the bible to justify BOMBING abortion clinics.

Conservatives are uptight D-bags with no soul...
Liberals are whiny bitches with no balls...

ALL people suck.

All that keeps me going is the thought that maybe one day AIDS will go airborne.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
The only thing that struck me funny is that a bunch of fundi's are tossing around jokes about the koran being a brainwashing tool when they're the one's using the bible to justify BOMBING abortion clinics.

Yeah...I find it humerous that someone is intimating that muslims are void of intelligence (thus being so easily brainwashed), yet they completely mis-spelled Qu'Ran or even Koran if you want to be occidental about it and wrote "Coran". It's also funny that, with all of those special forces listed in the U.S. category, we're bogged down in a quagmire of shit we can't possibly win by a bunch of "brainwashed" people who can only apparently crash planes, ride camels, and mail anthrax (which is also ridiculous since it is by and large believed that a non-muslim U.S. citizen did that) This proves, once again, that people in the south should not be taught to use computers. And I'm totally with Nonov...I don't find them offensive nor do I find them the least bit humerous. I do see that they're arrogant, racist, hateful, and they perpetuate the wrong idea about how most of us feel. I'm not a fan of terrorists, but those people are just arabs...no one knows who or what they are. So yeah...it's just lame.

[pdiggitydogg]

I wish we had AT-ATs

[AzCivic]

GT and Nonov you should goto these crap holes and help these poor poor people, maybe the west will finally understand. Oh wait they'll probably kidnap you and kill you on tape, claiming you had something to do with the some random cartoon.

[ebpda9]

the flying rug kills me everytime i see it.

[Wren57]

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.09.MustSeeTV-X.gif

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.08.Undeniable-X.gif

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.07.WestDhimmi-X.gif

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.05.RighttoBlaspheme-X.gif

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/06.02.02.IdleWorship-X.gif

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/2006_02.html

[ChrisCantSkate]

careful the UN might attack us cause of that

[Wren57]

"Come over here and sanction me with your army...oh wait, you ain't got an army. You know what I would do if I didn't have an army? I would shut the fuck up...Yeah, I would shut...the...fuck...up."

:D

[ChrisCantSkate]

:D :D

[Robert]

Originally posted by Wren57
"Come over here and sanction me with your army...oh wait, you ain't got an army. You know what I would do if I didn't have an army? I would shut the fuck up...Yeah, I would shut...the...fuck...up."

:D

love it just love it.. made me laugh

[GT40FIED]

I particularly like the free speech one...because that's only a problem in islamic nations, isn't it? It's really great that places like China, Korea, Cuba, Germany, and the U.S. don't harrass people for espousing unpopular ideas. Oh...wait. If you'll kindly remember back I do believe it was self-appointed savoir of our nation and all around douche bag George Bush who said (in response to a website criticising him), "there ought to be limits to freedom of speech". Wow...really? I mean...I know it's not wise to yell "fire" in a crowded theater...but limits on political commentary? I'm also pretty sure Bush had bitch-extraordinare Cindy Sheehan tossed from his state of the union address for wearing a shirt with the current U.S. death toll in Iraq. I'm sure he doesn't want to be reminded of how massivly he fucked up, but I fail to see how a statement of fact (one that he is directly responsible for, no less) constitutes such behavior. The media one was good, too...but I don't see Fox News in there despite the fact that they employ the largest number of liars and hacks in the world outside of our own government. Bill Clinton might have gotten a hummer from Monica Lewinsky, but Bush is getting one from Rupert Murdoch, owner of The Fox Network (and Europe's Sky TV).

So, in closing, I believe you know where you can stick those racist, bullshit, and half-wit cartoons. Please don't confirm my belief that the south really IS full of people like that.

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally posted by AzCivic
GT and Nonov you should goto these crap holes and help these poor poor people, maybe the west will finally understand. Oh wait they'll probably kidnap you and kill you on tape, claiming you had something to do with the some random cartoon.

A. Thats just simple minded and typical rhetoric.

B. Them kidnapping me and killing me would probobly not have much to do with a F'ing cartoon... it'd probobly be more likely inspired by them having the pleasure of seeing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of their friends, family, and fellow iraqis' getting slaughtered by a FAR FAR more advanced military because their leader is a D-bag that WE let stay in power from the FIRST gulf war when we actually HAD support from the majority of iraqis.

The current state of the middle east is SOLELY on the western worlds shoulders...

As long as countries like Saudi Arabia keep selling us oil we don't care WHAT they preach to their citizenry INCLUDING that it's the U.S.'s fault that their lives suck. The infrastructure over there is formulated to bread america hating extremists... and it's just as much our fault for capitulating with all these scumbag governments as long as it suits our needs... then once they need OUR help then we're back turning pussies who don't want to get involved in the politics of the region...

HELL the BIGGEST dispute over there is OUR fault... after WWII america and england didn't want to take all the jewish refugees... so they got together and told them... HEY why don't you retake israel as we pull out... it'll be an easy fight and you get what you REALLY want...

Armed them to the hilt and let them stomp over the palistinians who were basically celebrating the english finally pulling out...

Emperialism, capatalism and colonialism are the cause of almost if not ALL the worlds problems at this point. (Granted they're also responsible for most of the progress in the world too).

Oh and religion... Why is it that people can't just believe in whatever they feel like and not give a crap what other people think.

[nonovurbizniz]

P.S.

I REALLY like the new batch of comics.

Although I agree with GT... this administration or it's supporters have NO right to complain about free speech...

They're the ones stirring up this neo-mccarthy-esque world we're living in...

[AzCivic]

GT and Nonov I don't think anyone is listening to what you have to say (well I'm not anyways, but I'm an ass). You have no say in what happens and furthermore you're not "in the know" so you can pretend like everything on the internet/history books contains the whole story. When you get elected to some kind of office maybe I'll read your extra long posts since maybe they'll contain useful info.

BUT we're still internet buddies!! :kiss: :D

[Wren57]

Even in my inebriated state I can still enjoy a chuckle from reading y'alls political thinking. You bounce subjects very briefly and accuse so eagerly with so few facts. If only y'all actually read the paper every day you might be a bit more informed and less emotional.

[GT40FIED]

I do read the paper...y'all. Well...everything but the sports and editorial section. Those are fucking worthless.

[Robert]

Originally posted by AzCivic
GT and Nonov I don't think anyone is listening to what you have to say (well I'm not anyways, but I'm an ass). You have no say in what happens and furthermore you're not "in the know" so you can pretend like everything on the internet/history books contains the whole story. When you get elected to some kind of office maybe I'll read your extra long posts since maybe they'll contain useful info.

BUT we're still internet buddies!! :kiss: :D

Originally posted by Wren57
Even in my inebriated state I can still enjoy a chuckle from reading y'alls political thinking. You bounce subjects very briefly and accuse so eagerly with so few facts. If only y'all actually read the paper every day you might be a bit more informed and less emotional.

Love them both, couldn't have said it better myself... reminds me of a pervious thread...

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
GT and Nonov I don't think anyone is listening to what you have to say (well I'm not anyways, but I'm an ass). You have no say in what happens and furthermore you're not "in the know" so you can pretend like everything on the internet/history books contains the whole story. When you get elected to some kind of office maybe I'll read your extra long posts since maybe they'll contain useful info.

BUT we're still internet buddies!! :kiss: :D

You know Rob...for as much as you pro-Bush folks like to belittle others for not throwing around facts (that goes for the other Rob, too), you sure as shit don't throw out any nuggets of truth yourselves. Mark Twain said itm best when he said "There are three kinds of lies in this world. Lies, damned lies, and statistics". So c'mon...drop some hard knowledge on me. No...seriously...hit me with something I can't come back with. I don't preport to know everything. I just use logic. Newton's third law states that for every action there MUST be an equal and opposite reaction. That applies to physics as well as politics. It's only logical to conclude that our medeling in world affairs where we're not wanted will end badly for us. Yes, I know Iraqis turned out en mass for their elections...but that's only because they wanted to ensure that their tribe/militia gained power. You can believe the bullshit that it was driven by democracy...or you can understand human nature in wanting your side to win. Really...it's quite easy. Nothing too complicated about it.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
I just use logic. Newton's third law states that for every action there MUST be an equal and opposite reaction.

well.. logically we dont follow that, cause we didnt respond to anything in the past 5 years with an equal reaction. for every action theres a reaction... true. but to what extent and to whom is a completly different thing


this world isnt fair, the sooner you learn that the sooner you come out on top. im not saying be a dick and an ass at every opportunity, but iraq wasnt gonna play fair, the taliban wasnt playing fair, iran wont play fair, so our opposite and equal reaction is to not play fair and look out for our own well being. if thats kinda jumping the gun, if enough of the pieces are in place then so be it. someones going to cry... you want it to be us or them. it only takes us being wrong once to loose an entire city to nuclear fallout from one attack, its for our own well being. what if it was NY or LA or DC.. huge mass of people and well besides LA a huge economic hit for the entire country. if someone openly hates us and starts on that path to destruction i hope we'll stand in. assess the situation then make our move from there

now im not saying go attack everyone, but if country X wants nuclear power, yet country X also wants to harm county A that i live in. then i want my gov to watch country X and report, size up, whatever to them to let them know we are watching and not to make the wrong move. we dont evolve without survival of the fittest, we are one of the fittest technology rich countrys, and it would be a good 50 years backwards if we lost one or more of our cities, cause a war would follow then 10 years later we'd kinda sort of have it iorned out then what? oh look we could have been to mars(i still laugh thinking about bushes plan to get there but thats another topic) or we'd have the next space station built or those billions in resourses could be used for something productive instead of rebuilding.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
You know Rob...for as much as you pro-Bush folks ...

I'm not really Pro-bush as much as I'm anti-complaining about something you surely don't know the whole story about.

Just say this with me: "Republicans aren't out to get me, they don't hate me, maybe I don't know as much as I think I do"

[Wren57]

You know, Steve, if you would stay on one subject for more than one post, it might be worth proving you wrong.

[nonovurbizniz]

^maybe he's trying to give you LOTS of options to reply with ANYTHING other than "that's not worth replying to"

Denial is a pretty sad state if you ask me... WAY worse then getting "emotional" about someone else just pulling the wool over their eyes and pretending their right.

I'll be frank I hardly EVER get into these debates because the conservatives have this bizarre hive mind of protect and deny...

I mean I don't hold allegance to ANY party or administration... ALL administrations have good and bad (well I'm having a hard time finding ANYTHING good out of JR).

And even die hard democrats NEVER EVER defended clinton like this... I mean they OPENLY admit that he's a letch but his POLICY and ACTIONS were supportable... the only REAL problem with Clinton was that HE WAS a flip flopper... he didn't stick to his guns when it got un popluar because he was riding such a freaking tsunami of popularity.

Which is a funny flip side to what's going on now... bush keeps sticking to his guns no matter how UNpopular it gets.

Is that it? do all the grass rooters just like that he sticks by what he said no matter what? hoping some how that he truly does have an end game?

[GT40FIED]

You know, Steve, if you would stay on one subject for more than one post, it might be worth proving you wrong.

Hey...if your brain doesn't work that way, that's your problem. Things tie together...it's just the way of the world. Hell...I'd be more than satisfied if you could prove just one thing wrong without using rhetoric and/or bullshit. I mean really...I like talking to people. I've heard all of these points before and I'm still not convinced. So really...if you've got some cold hard facts to hit me with, be my guest. Problem is that facts are useless on ocassion. You can dig some up, then I'll dig up more that contradicts what you dug up, then it goes on and on until the thread gets locked or one of use suffers a mild heart attack.

[Mischief]

black bush!!

[ChrisCantSkate]

Hey...if your brain doesn't work that way, that's your problem. Things tie together...it's just the way of the world. Hell...I'd be more than satisfied if you could prove just one thing wrong without using rhetoric and/or bullshit. I mean really...I like talking to people. I've heard all of these points before and I'm still not convinced. So really...if you've got some cold hard facts to hit me with, be my guest. Problem is that facts are useless on ocassion. You can dig some up, then I'll dig up more that contradicts what you dug up, then it goes on and on until the thread gets locked or one of use suffers a mild heart attack.


not to pick and be a bitch but when having real debates you dont just jump from topic to topic you answer each point brought up or you concede the argument to your opponent. you would loose every one if you did that. you cant tell someone to think like a ADD child and just hop from topic to topic when we're trying to have a semi-intellegent debate. second... fact? no one has posted a single "fact" in this thread. lots of speculation, lots of assumptions, but until i see a link to a sourse, its all just hot air, on both sides of the court.

[Wren57]

Good points again, Chris. I suppose you agree more with this, Steve;
http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/behead.jpg

Many of the people that live in that region simly have ZERO understanding of what free speech actually is. They can't differentiate between free speech and blashphemy. Why do they care so much what a Danish cartoonist thinks of their religion? MANY of them are fundamentalists that STILL believe in intolerance and either converting people to their radical Islam or killing them. I'd rather kill the radical Muslims (that want to kill me) before they get the means to kill me. How can you disagree with that?

[GT40FIED]

Hey...that's cute. Since I don't agree with you, I must support anything and everything the people you disagree with take part in, right? If that sounds insanely stupid...well...you figure it out. There's really only one bottom line here. If you don't believe in freedom of speech for the stuff you don't like, then you don't believe in it at all. To lump everyone in a given region and generalize them isn't only intolerant, it's just ridiculous. I live in the midwest...does that mean I read my bible everyday and then go milk cows? You live in the south...does that mean you're an inbred racist retard? Of course not. Sure, there are people like that in both instances but are they the majority of the populace?

[Wren57]

I never said they were majority of the populace. Once again you've proved your inability to comprehend ideas contrary to your own. You also didn't address a single point I made, merely resorted to personal attacks. I said "many" and also didn't lump all Muslims together, rather referred to only the "radical muslims." Reading is fundamental, so are the radical muslims... and unfortunately the radical muslims are the ones in power... they must be dealt with.

I have an idea why you are against attacking the people that want us dead. You, living in KS, are not even remotely threatened by them because you aren't a target. Your selfish view of the government is well documented in other threads (such as the one you started today) and I'd guess if you lived in NYC, LA or a place that had a higher threat level, you might rethink where you want the battle between the radical muslims and paranoid republicans to take place. I'd rather it be in the middle east.

[GT40FIED]

Ok...you really want me to break it down sentence by sentence?

People over there probably don't know a whole lot about free speech because after the Ottoman empire was broken up and what we now know is the middle east was formed, they've pretty much been fucked over by one dictator or another. If they can't differentiate between free speech and blasphemy, see above.

I think the only reason some of them chose to riot is simply because, to them, any image of Muhammed is blasphemous. Do I agree with that? No...but I'm not a muslim. And don't pretend that shit like that doesn't happen here...it just happens in a different way. Remember how so many christians just about lost their fucking heads when people started saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas"? They didn't riot but they did what we do best in this country...bitch. People here may not riot, but they do what seems to work...complain. People in the middle east are simply doing the only thing that's ever worked for them. I think it's ridiculous and unnecessary, but there it is.

I fail to see how any muslim who tries to convert anyone is any different than a christian/jew/whatever trying to convert people. Anyone can take it over the top, and when it comes to religion they often do. Simple fact of life...people are stupid and quite often crazy.

Of course I don't argue with anyone killing someone who's trying to kill you. That's just ridiculous. But if you can devise a way to track down and kill ONLY those who wish us IN THIS COUNTRY harm, be my guest. In fact, such an idea could make you president since ours sure can't come up with such a solution.

[Wren57]

See, that is an intelligent post. Wasn't so hard, was it. ;)

I actually agree with every word of what you said. And yes, Christians bitch about things, but bitching hurts nobody. Rioting and attacking people over a cartoon does. Our difference in opinion isn't the situation now, but how to deal with it. I think the best way to deal with the problem has a couple parts;

1. Most importantly, protect Americans. Hunt down and eliminate people that pose LEGITIMATE threats to the US and US interests.
2. Educate the masses about the meaning of free speech. This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.
3. LEAVE. After the seed of democracy has taken root and we ensure the innocents have a sufficient level of safety to have a fair shot at life, we need to get the f*ck out so our lasting impression is not that of imperialistic occupiers.

If you disagree with any of those 3 steps, please explain why you think it is wrong and what you would do different.

[ebpda9]

See, that is an intelligent post. Wasn't so hard, was it. ;)

I actually agree with every word of what you said. And yes, Christians bitch about things, but bitching hurts nobody. Rioting and attacking people over a cartoon does. Our difference in opinion isn't the situation now, but how to deal with it. I think the best way to deal with the problem has a couple parts;

1. Most importantly, protect Americans. Hunt down and eliminate people that pose LEGITIMATE threats to the US and US interests.
2. Educate the masses about the meaning of free speech. This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.
3. LEAVE. After the seed of democracy has taken root and we ensure the innocents have a sufficient level of safety to have a fair shot at life, we need to get the f*ck out so our lasting impression is not that of imperialistic occupiers.

If you disagree with any of those 3 steps, please explain why you think it is wrong and what you would do different.


Holy crap, the end of the world is near. :smileysex You make it sounds so simple, but the fuck it is. I am looking back at romania, which came out from under the communist rule more than 17 years ago, and democracy is understood that everyone can shit whenever they want, do whatever they want. And romania is not the only contry that had that happen. Look at russia and the other easter europena countries. Nothing seems to work the way you just imagined. And to be there for about 17 years seems pretty damn imperialist to me.

And the muslims never reformed their religion since it's begining. How about christianity ? Remeber the inquisitions ? sounds to me kinda like what the muslims are doing now ? Just a more recent even is that of shinead o'connor when she claimed to "destroy the real enemy" and ripped the picture of the pope. What was the reaction ? She got banned from radio stations, tv stations and got a lot of bad publicity. I can only imagine the reaction if someone says anything bad about jesus or some other figures in christianity. And on both sides of the fence there are the religious nuts, who can only see their pov.

[Robert]

The steps to solving the problem are simple, carrying them out is a completely different story.

[Wren57]

The steps to solving the problem are simple, carrying them out is a completely different story.

Couldn't agree more. However, you can't begin to solve a problem or achieve a goal without first having a vision of the future and laying out simple steps to get there.

[GT40FIED]

See, that is an intelligent post. Wasn't so hard, was it. ;)

I actually agree with every word of what you said. And yes, Christians bitch about things, but bitching hurts nobody. Rioting and attacking people over a cartoon does. Our difference in opinion isn't the situation now, but how to deal with it. I think the best way to deal with the problem has a couple parts;

1. Most importantly, protect Americans. Hunt down and eliminate people that pose LEGITIMATE threats to the US and US interests.
2. Educate the masses about the meaning of free speech. This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.
3. LEAVE. After the seed of democracy has taken root and we ensure the innocents have a sufficient level of safety to have a fair shot at life, we need to get the f*ck out so our lasting impression is not that of imperialistic occupiers.

If you disagree with any of those 3 steps, please explain why you think it is wrong and what you would do different.

Well I don't think most people disagree on what should be done, but rather how it's being done. I guess I'll break down my issue with each of those, again, point by point.

1. While we should be chasing down legitimate threats (and I'm sure we are on a smaller scale), we've almost began some weird McCarthyist crusade to weed out "terrorists" everywhere. That would be great...if everyone we accused was actually a terrorist. The fact that these people can be accused in a closed court (if they're lucky enough to even get a trial) is even more worrysome to me. It's gotten to the point that people are so scared they're willing to sacrifice many of their freedoms for a small amount of what they think is security. I firmly believe what Ben Franklin said was right "those who would trade long term freedoms for temporary security deserve neither freedom nor security". We fought a helluva lot of wars and took down some of the biggest enemies in the world without losing any of our freedoms the way we have now (unless you had the misfortune of being Japanese in the early '40s).

2. Everyone in the world deserves some sort of free speech. Once people stop listening to new and radical ideas we'll be thrust backward in time who knows how far. But people want what they want. I'm just not sure that our invading a country is the best way to let them know they can speak freely. After that they'll become dependent upon us for that freedom, and tat doesn't work out well in the long term. I just think that if enough people had been really pissed, Iraq would've overthrown itself years ago. That's Poli Sci 101. If your government doesn't work for the majority of the people, change it. That's how this country started...and we took on the biggest army in the world at the time. It's happened elsewhere, too. In the mid-1700s Burma (today's Myanmar) invaded Siam (today's Thailand). A small village called Bang Rajan fought off 10,000 well equipped Burmese invaders without armor, horses, or even decent weaponry (not 10,000 all at once of course...they came in waves). If a small bunch of farmers can fight off 10,000 invading troops, I have no doubt the Iraqi people could've changed their government themselves.

3. I definitely agree we need to get out Iraq and the midle east in general, but we've pounded the drum for so long and dug our claws in so deep I don't really see a way of doing that without just cutting them loose. Of course, if that happens we'll be right back where we are now in another 10 years. The government isn't helping us out, either. The democrats are a party of no ideas, the republicans are a party of bad ideas, and no one will even try to elect a third party candidate. Like Lewis Black said, "it's like a republican senator stands up and says 'I've got a bad idea!' then a democratic senator stands up and shouts 'and I can make it shittier!". If nobody ever works together, nothing's ever going to get done. People need to get it out of their heads that only the ideas of their party are right. Both sides I'm sure have come up with some decent ideas, but they shout each other down before those ideas go anywhere. I don't know...I don't see any clean way out of the hole we've dug for ourselves without coming off as worse then people already think we are.

[nonovurbizniz]

This will be done easiest by introducing democracy. The idea that everyone gets an equal opinion is very enticing and WILL lead to greater acceptance. There is a reason more countries are democracies now than ever.


I'm just touching on this one point... I'm tired and didn't read all the new posts...

IRAN IS DEMOCRATIC...

Free speech and democracy are only attactive to americans when it's the speech they want to hear...

SAYING that there was no holocaust and SAYING death to Israel is FREE F'ING SPEECH...

You're and bush's response to that FREE SPEECH by the FREELY ELECTED leader of a SOVERGN nation... "Bomb the fuckers"...

Riiiiiiiigggghhhht you're all for free speech and democracy.

Please tell me you see the irony in this right?

Bush says he wants to bring democracy to the middle east... So the obvious next step is to ATTACK the ONLY country that instituted our valued democracy on their own... but of course the vote didn't go bush's way and he doesn't have any brother governors in Iran so lets send our teenagers over there to "straighten things out".

[ChrisCantSkate]

democracy dosnt work for everyone. it might be the end-solution, but they have to be ready for it. like nonov said iran is democratic, and look, not working so hot. most policitcal parties CAN work with the right situation. communisim can work, but not for a poor country on the verge of a revolution(and many other situations), capitolism can work, but not in a barter/trade nation or by people who dont understand how to earn money. dictatorship can work but not by a power hungry person. to simply plant the seed of democracy then turn and run would be devistating. you need to have an educated nation that understands how and why democracy works, how capitolism works, and why they should/would want to enbark on that path.

[Wren57]

"death to israel" is not free speech, it is a threat. if you said "death to jimmy carter" you would be prosecuted for a threat. We do the same, only on a global level. the two examples you used to support irony are at best poorly related.

I am 100% for free speech. I support the Danish paper's right to publish offensive cartoons (also support the paper losing market share if their reading populace is so offended... free market, baby!) and I support the muslim community's right to protest. I do NOT support their right to protest violently or to threaten any individual, group of people, or country. Ever heard of preemptive strike?

here you go nonov, more koolaid you can drink;
http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Pre-emptive_strike.html

[Wren57]

OK, Steve, onto your post. Here is cliffs notes I got out of what you posted:

1. You disagree giving up the liberties we have given up for security
--I agree to an extent. Cameras in public locations are a bit ridiculous, but other than that, what liberties have you had taken away? I haven't had any.

2. You don't care enough about basic human rights denied to other peoples because they haven't risen up against their gov't (either out of apathy, being pussies, or not having the capability of doing so).
--Your darwinistic/capitalistic ideals rare their head again, only this time on a larger scale. While I believe in economic capitalism, what you've lined out is societal capitalism. It is a valid opinion, however not one I agree with.

3. You don't want us over there but you don't want us to leave, either.
--Not really sure what to say to this one, you can't blame the present on the past and just give up on the present and future. Don't wish you'd been dealt different cards, gotta play the cards you are dealt. Deal with the situation we are in now, not where we were or where we could have been.

ps. I love intelligent debates. :)

[GT40FIED]

Technically "death to Israel" doesn't constitute a direct threat. If he'd said "I'm going to destroy Israel" then yeah. But lots of misguided people in this country say "death to Israel" (for context, take a trip over to the message boards at www.resistance.com) and have yet to be labeled terrorists or imprisoned for making threats. Besides, Israel isn't the U.S. I know it sounds callous, but let them fend for themselves. The only people our government has to protect is us. If we keep trying to stand up for people all over the world because we perceive them as allies we'll be at this forever. That...or our military will implode and we'll be 100 times more fucked than we are right now.

I thumbed through that site and while it's mostly whiny pussy bullshit, there is one good point. NONE of the countries in that part of the world even if nuclear equipped can harm us while we give free passes to those that could. We sure as shit didn't seem to have any problem pissing off the french when they stood against us. It's pretty arrogant of us to tell other countries to disarm while we bulk up.

Fuck it...I need to study for my Korean test.

[Robert]

Steve since the US is the only super power they have a responsibility to the world community to defend the rights adn freedoms of people who are unable to do it for themselves.

[GT40FIED]

I gotta disagree with you Rob. The only responsibility of any given government is to ensure the happiness and safety of it's own people. Again, Poli Sci 101. Any consideratiom towards those who they perceive as allies is secondary. We have no responsibility to protect anyone else in the world, period. That aspect is doubly important when that protection comes at our own risk (which defending Israel certainly would). Besides, when was the last time Israel did anything for us? I'll tell you when. Never. We throw billions and billions of dollars at them in "loans" that we never expect to be repaid. We arm them with tanks and helicopter gunships so they can take out Palestinian kids who throw rocks at tanks. We owe them NOTHING but are willing to sacrifice ourselves for their security. Fuck that. If there were more muslims than jews in this country you can bet your ass we'd be standing up for Iran and saying "fuck Israel".

It's high time we learned that we can't protect everyone no matter how much we'd like to. We learned this in Vietnam, Korea, and the first gulf war. The first two were fought against the scourge of communism. Last I checked Korea and Vietnam had split and Red China was doing just fine with communism. Now we're fighting a war against islam (say we're not all you like...you're either lying to yourself or to others). The sad truth is that the things we fight against prevail long after we're gone. It's the way of the world. People get used to certain things and new ideas tend to scare people. Differences of opinions aside, I think we can all agree it's not the best idea to piss of the muslim world any more than we absolutely have to at this point. We need their support, not their contempt. If you thought they were crazy before, just see what a few years of unwanted occupation does to them.

[ChrisCantSkate]

you are forgetting that by protecting them we are protecting our interests. and is it the responsibility for our contry to protect our assests, wether its people, capitol, or whathaveyou. if a war breaks out in the mid east and wse're not there, its gonna escalade to unthinkable proportions, and since the only reason that stockpile of arms exsists is because we had an arms race with the USSR way back durring the cold war, we made them go bankrupt and they sold their war toys to the mid east, now we have to look out for A) those countries which we have an interest in wether its for oil, land, people, etc. and B) the threat of catostrophic events to take place there, which will effect our people in the long run C) balance the power that us and the USSR are responsible for creating. you dont let your dog crap in the park and walk away from it, you clean up his shit.

now thats just what we should do being a country in the world. being the only superpower, strongest and arguably the richest country in the world, for the betterment of mankind and world development we NEED.. let me stress that NEED to make sure things cant just run out of control and sit inside our borders and say "fuck them"

[Wren57]

Gotta agree with Chris again- Israel is our main ally in that region and as such gives us greater leverage. If Israel falls and radical muslims overrun the area, their next target will be us... lest you forget that all Americans are "infidels."


Steve, you've yet to offer a better (or any) alternative to our current course of action. And don't start with hindsight, think up a plan starting today.

[Robert]

you are forgetting that by protecting them we are protecting our interests. and is it the responsibility for our contry to protect our assests, wether its people, capitol, or whathaveyou. if a war breaks out in the mid east and wse're not there, its gonna escalade to unthinkable proportions, and since the only reason that stockpile of arms exsists is because we had an arms race with the USSR way back durring the cold war, we made them go bankrupt and they sold their war toys to the mid east, now we have to look out for A) those countries which we have an interest in wether its for oil, land, people, etc. and B) the threat of catostrophic events to take place there, which will effect our people in the long run C) balance the power that us and the USSR are responsible for creating. you dont let your dog crap in the park and walk away from it, you clean up his shit.

now thats just what we should do being a country in the world. being the only superpower, strongest and arguably the richest country in the world, for the betterment of mankind and world development we NEED.. let me stress that NEED to make sure things cant just run out of control and sit inside our borders and say "fuck them"

Thank you for laying it out for Steve.

[GT40FIED]

Well I'm not saying we shouldn't ever help our "friends", but we really need to start looking at the risk/reward. If we commit to it all or nothing there's no way we'll be able to maintain any kind of significant military force. We might think that Israel is the only thing keeping that part of the world from exploding like a potato in a microwave, but really...who listens to them? They've had the same capabilities for years, but the can't even handle a small group of people like the Palenstinians. Let's face it, they're hugely outnumbered in that part of the world by people who aren't their biggest fans. Those people aren't listening to them anyway. Israel may be our friend, but I don't see risking our own safety for theirs as being a viable plan.

As for where to go from here...I guess there are a lot of options. I mean...we're there and there's not much to be done about that now. I'd say first of all we need some people in powerful places who can recognize when what we've done is (hopefully) starting to work so we can leave as soon as possible. No more landing on aircraft carriers shouting "mission accomlpished" when we're far from done and far from accomplished. We need to develop a REAL intelligence community so shit like this doesn't happen again. We have nearly unlimited resources and the best we could do was say "oops, we messed up". That's just plain unacceptable for the only superpower left. And really, that gives carte blanche to any other country who wants to ruin someone's shit. If all you've gotta do is deliver a half assed apology, why not? Perhaps most importantly we need to work on our image across the world. The reason we're knee deep in people hating us is largely because of the way we're perceived across the world. Whether they're right or wrong, we need to start understanding that people who aren't like us REALLY aren't like us. Some people won't ever stop hating us no matter what...not much we can do about that. But the last thing we should be doing is validating their reasons for hating us.

[Robert]

Let's face it, they're hugely outnumbered in that part of the world by people who aren't their biggest fans. Those people aren't listening to them anyway. Israel may be our friend, but I don't see risking our own safety for theirs as being a viable plan.

Shall i remind you about the 6 day war?

[GT40FIED]

Shall I remind you that I was using that in the context of their influence in that part of the world?

[Robert]

Shall I remind you that I was using that in the context of their influence in that part of the world?

Probably since it wasn't stated a such.

[GT40FIED]

Well...not outright. I suppose I meant to imply it. But I'm too lazy to go fix it now...but you get the idea.