So now that it's been a few years...

[GT40FIED]

Does anyone here think that the U.S. going to war was a good idea? By that, I mean looking back, did the means justify the end (technically nothing has ended, but our "accomplishments" up until this point). Long after we had the balls to declare "mission accomplished", today comes a report from the Pentagon that the Army can't take any more (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060124/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/army_breaking_point) and those pesky insurgents don't seem to be backing down in the least. Now I've got friends in active service who are being deployed towards the Iraq/Syria border. Hmmm...wonder where we're headed next. Maybe if we hadn't...oh, I dunno...gone in this thing virtually alone and against all common sense, we wouldn't be in this mess of shit. Or maybe if we'd had...what's that stuff called...decent intelligence. That's too many maybes though. Perhaps if we stopped saying that we support our troops and showed it by paying them like the heroes we say they are. But perhaps is just a fancy maybe.

I will say that we did get rid of Saddam...which sets the stage for the next dictator or oligarchy/theocracy/totalitarianist big bad regime that'll need to be "removed" in another decade. Sure, Saddam was a bad guy...no one with a soul can really argue otherwise, but I don't see that much of anything has changed since he's been gone. Yeah, there are Iraqi police but I suspect that is largely attributable to a paycheck rather than any source of civil responsibility. Not suprising, since they're trained by us and we basically treat them like "house niggers". Sure, there are "democratic" elections, but you're a fool if you think that those are more than a dog and pony show so we can clap our hands and think we done did good. Let's see this "democracy" handle their own shit and stop these motherfuckers from blowing shit up. Not likely. But hey...maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this time next year Iraq will be all rainbows and the streets will be so quiet that they'd give Norman Rockwell a cavity. If not, just remember that bigger bombs just spread more freedom.

[Si-R CRX]

Yeah I'm with you. It would be nice to think that we are doing good but in the long run I don't really think so. No matter how long we are there as soon as we leave the corrupt will come out of the hiding and it will happen again. Its kind of hard to say what to do because we had to take action after 9/11 but I dont think we can reform their whole goverment. Our goverment is fucked up itself so how can we rebuild another? All you can do is support the troops that are over there and hope that they stay safe.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by Si-R CRX
Its kind of hard to say what to do because we had to take action after 9/11

We did...in Afghanistan...which was a good idea.

[dabouncerx24]

Sad thing is...some of the troops over there really believe in what they were told to be doing, "spreading freedom."

[Robert]

Show support for the troops.

Freedom is being given to Iraqies. The cost is greater then expected and its sad that the rest of the world didn't join to help.

As for being a fool to think theres progress, same goes for those who think they know whats going on but haven't been there to see it.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by Robert
Show support for the troops.

Freedom is being given to Iraqies. The cost is greater then expected and its sad that the rest of the world didn't join to help.

As for being a fool to think theres progress, same goes for those who think they know whats going on but haven't been there to see it.

Hey...I support the troops. I support paying them money on par with the service they provide (there are TONS of military families on government aid simply because they can't make enough to get by). I support sending them better protection against enemy fire. I support not fucking them from behind with backdoor drafts. Apparently the pentagon does not share my sentiment.

Freedom...as long as it complies with what we think is freedom. Freedom to do things the way we tell them to. Perhaps most importantly freedom that will likely be short lived. The only way they would have ever truely have been free would have been to take their country back themselves in the manner that best befits them. They didn't need some backwoods hick with a "don't mess with Texas" bravado riding in like some bad Clint Eastwood movie and blowing shit up. Our government has absolutely NO sense of accountability either here or abroad. Here everything is pawned off to a media who panders to politicians. Abroad we'll invade and kick the shit out of a country because...well...we can, apparently. There's a good reason the rest of the world didn't hop on board and it's really quite simple: they knew we were wrong. Turns out they knew us better than we did. Go figure.

If you see progress, you must be stuck to Fox News. One thing needs to be made clear outright...there is NO way we're going to win this fight. At least not in the manner that most Americans understand victory. To them the only way we'll win is when Iraq becomes a mid east USA. Who can blame them? That's pretty much what was promised to them. The only progress being made is making such progress seem to exist where there is none and making people buy it. Maybe that's the worst lie of all.

[Rob]

I've had mixed emotions about the war....it played a big roll in my decision not to re-enlist....

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by Robert
Show support for the troops.

Freedom is being given to Iraqies. The cost is greater then expected and its sad that the rest of the world didn't join to help.

As for being a fool to think theres progress, same goes for those who think they know whats going on but haven't been there to see it.

I know plenty of people over seas...enough to know whats happening..that is at least what they can tell us. The moment we pull out of iraq it will go to hell and then we really have to worry about homeland attacks...we might as well make Iraq an american state:crazy:

[nonovurbizniz]

If we pull out we don't have to worry about more homeland attacks that's just freaking rediculous propaganda.

What like we're over there keeping the terrorists away from the US???

No what we're doing is pissing EVERYONE off over there and doing EXACTLY what caused all these current problems...

WHY does Bin Laden hate the US?

Because we desicrated "holy land" by stationing our troops in Saudi Arabia for the FIRST gulf war...

Why did we go to the first gulf war???? OIL plane and F'ing simple.. Say otherwise and you're either naive or ignorant.

Why is it that bush sr thought it was justified to go to war with Iraq over them invading when it's NOT worth going to war to save people from GENOCIDE, or ETHNIC CLEANSING... because when we're done doing what's right in those countries we don't profit.

BUT if we save poor little Kuwait from big bad Irag (which was attcking with the military WE help them build) we get TONS and TONS of oil for dirt cheap.


All we're doing now is breeding more and more Bin Ladens.

You want a way to end all this crap...

STOP TREATING MUSLIMS OF THE WORLD LIKE 3RD CLASS CITIZENS....

EDUCATE THEM... GIVE THEM LAND WE STOLE BACK... BUILD ECONOMIC INFROSTRUCTURE...

STOP BLOWING THEM ALL UP AT EVERY CHANCE WE GET. or aiding those that do.

Freaking Israeli soldiers shoot at 12 year olds Palastinian kids throwing rocks with the US supplied WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION... Gee can't imagine what's stirring up these whiley Arabs.

As far as the Iraqi people are aware (half from our actions half from intentional mis-information fed to them by their governments) US was working WITH Saddam during the first Gulf War...

And after we tell them to revolt against Saddam we leave them to die at his hand once we got the surrender we wanted out of Saddam. WTF would you think...

We're rotten emperialist bastards... it started with the english, french, spanish... Now we are the scurge of the earth.

We need to stop trying to influence things for our own ends. And start trying to make the world a BETTER place for EVERYONE... not just us.

It would be one thing if we tried to affect world events and EVER got it right... EVERYTHING we touch turns to shit eventually becuase NONE of it is genuinely inspired by good will... it's all to an end.

Capatalism is the best system for economic growth but the worst for encouraging world peace. Everyone is out for themselves.

[Robert]

a half trillion dollars buys alot more oil then they'll ever get out of Iraq.

Either way, the push for freedom in this region is long over due.

GT - assuming you know anyting of the makings over there is ignorance. Stop making an ass out of me.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by Robert
a half trillion dollars buys alot more oil then they'll ever get out of Iraq.

Either way, the push for freedom in this region is long over due.

GT - assuming you know anyting of the makings over there is ignorance. Stop making an ass out of me.

I'm not assuming anything. Everything I'm saying is either a simple logical conclusion or what I know from things my buddies who are in the Army and have been there have told me. How many friends have you got over there? Oh...that's right...Canada was smart enough to stay out of it.

Anyone who thinks we're doing this for Iraqis is either blind or deluding themselves. We're doing what's best for US. Look at weapons of mass destruction. Nine out of ten victims killed in war today are killed by small arms fire...RPGs, Kalashnikovs and, if we're the ones firing the bullets, the M4A1 rifle. Those are the real weapons of mass destruction. Guess where all the RPGs and Kalashnikovs came from. If you said the U.S., you'd be right. Even if Saddam had WMDs (lies, lies, lies), if what universe did he have the technology capable of getting them even half way to the U.S.? We provided the means for this war in the 80's when we provided Iraq the means to defeat Iran (same goes for Afghanistan when they fought the Soviets). Then, ironically, we covertly sold guns to the Iranians proving the only thing we give a shit about is the almighty dollar (and made now-news-correspondant Oliver North the scapegoat...fuck me in the Ozarks if that's not patriotic). We don't fight wars, we take sides. The problem this time is that the side we took will open us up to even more danger than before.

Look at Israel and Palestine. Why do you think we give billions and BILLIONS of "loans" to Israel that we never expect to be repaid? Everyone's the same in that conflict. Someone shoots someone else and they say the other person fired first. The difference is that Israel is backed by us so when a 12 year old throws a rock at a tank, they just load the cannon and fire away because I'll be damned if that rock couldn't fuck that tank up something fierce. The only reason we back Israel is because there are way more jewish voters in this country than muslim. If it were the other way around, you can bet we'd be backing Palestine. The only reason no one in this country will admit that is because they're terrified of being called an anti-semite for saying bad things about Israel (thanks in large part to organizations like the ADL). Luckily for me, I don't give a fuck. In the end it's all about us and fake righteousness in the name of manifest destiny.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

[GT40FIED]

I think this picture about says it all

[Robert]

GT. You're right, its all a big puppet show. You've uncovered a huge secret. Yet can't do anything about it? Can't get people of influence to listen to you? Think thats because 'they to are in on it'?

Your banter, and the banter of people like you is lost in the noise of people living their lives.

You want to talk about Iraq, and are trying to have me believe that becuase you have 'army buddies' that these grunts my have some insight into the inner workings of the pentagon or white house. It doesn't!

It's a well known fact that the US gov't knew about pearl harbour before it was going to happen. They used the attack to put the US into WW2, ultimiately ending the war on the side of freedom. Why aren't you angry about that? Maybe because it proved to be the right thing to do.

Where am I going with all of this. Great, much greater minds then yours are working daily on the worlds issues. Thankfully the world is still greatly influenced by a Christian nation who believes in a free society. That would be the USA.

So when you go on your rants about how we're all being fooled to believe the war in Iraq is not about freedom or any of the things the media has told us. Take a look at half the clothing you own, see the lable CHINA on it and think about the people working for 18c/day and remember, if they rise up and speak of religion or democracy. They're shot.

These just some of the things you enjoy as an American. The right to live free, practice your own religion, purhcase items from young childern made in china and listen to music playing off your Ipod you drive down the highway in the search for $2.50 gal gas.

Believe it or not, your freedoms come at a price. A price that other men, much smarter and more powerful then you understand and work daily to protect. Don't be so ungreatful.

As for Isearl. They are the pearl of the middle east. They only truly democracy that is in place. The US backs them because they helped create teh country after ww2. They have a responsibility to support this country and they do so. Christians believe as well that this land is where the second coming will take place. So this country is important for Jews and Christians.

The media you nicely hate, seems to have you into believe Isreal is a thorn in America's side. When really its a thorn in the side of countries in the middle east who would like to see them all dead. Look through history, and the conflicts that have come from Isreal. Educate yourself.

I think you've become the victom of the internet news phonomino. Its a growing issue where people only surrond themselves with the facts that support their views and use news filtering and the control the internet has to remove unwanted news bites to build on their view of the world.

Now after reading all of this you should do one of 3 things.
1. Wonder why a Canadian is writing such things, when our coutnry didn't enter Iraq?
2. Reflect on the issues before responding with the same type of content as above.
3. Ask yourself. How do I possitively contribute to America?

My background:
- Every male in my family of age fought in ww2. My grand father enlisted at 15.
- I work 6 days a week to support my soon to be family
- I intend to move to this US in May 07
- Currently own a slice of the American dream, aprox 1800sqt/feet + a car
- Enjoy frequent visits to the US
- Future business, and the source of my current income is backed by US buyers.
- Upon becoming an American resident I intend to enroll in the reservers. As i believe there is no great duty one man can do for his country but defend it.

Maybe that will help you.

[GT40FIED]

No...it doesn't help me. Why? Because most of what you said is total and utter crap.

Who are you to say that what my friends have seen and done doesn't reflect the current situation? Have you been there as they have? Have you seen first hand what is going on? No...you haven't, so I'd appreciate it if you'd shut the fuck up and not try to degrade my friends and family who have been there and seen things you've only read about. If you believe what the pentagon has to say, you're just a pawn that will allow himself to be fed any bullshit that comes his way. Why do you think recruitment is down? Because people...even people who would otherwise enlist...know this war is bullshit. And if you're so ready for service, why haven't you enlisted in Canada's army? You won't defend your own homeland but you want to defend a nation that is by and large foolish? Well played, sir.

Your notion that this is a "christian nation" is not only laughable but incredibly ignornant. Remember...you want to emmigrate here. We'll take just about anyone. That means buddhists, communists, atheists, hindus, jews, muslims...anyone who wants in our fucking door. We've even proved it by removing your god from our constitution.

As for the clothes I wear...they're all white T-shirts made in the USA. Same goes for my jeans and my shoes. I do my best to avoid anything that was made or built outside of this country. Do I have things made elsewhere? I'm sure I do. But the next time you sit down to watch TV or type on your computer, you better thank those 18c/hour workers for affording you that luxury before casting stones. There is hardly anyone in this country or on this fucking continent for that matter who cannot say they've purchased things from abroad. My clothes should be the least of your concerns.

As for Israel...have fun throwing around that idea while you're a Canadian. Since Israel's inception we've given them over $1 trillion dollars. They've never paid a dime back. We didn't help them create their country...we (along with several other nations) gave it to them out of pity. Why do you think the Palestinians were so pissed? They'd lived there just fine for the longest time. Then they got told that their country belonged to someone else. I could go into great detail in this subject, but it's a waste of my time in this post. And the only true democracy? That's a joke.

As for the media...if anything they suck the Israeli cock like no one else. God forbid we offend any potential jewish viewers by saying that Israel is wrong or that any muslim nation is right. Just take a look at Hollywood. When was the last time you saw an Israeli hijacker on a plane in some movie? Contrast that with the last time you saw a Mossad agent kill someone. Both instances provide a record of around 0. Now tell me the media, internet or otherwise, has a favorable bias towards anyone BUT Israel (extremists aside). Add to the fact that Rupert Murdock owns what is no doubt your favorite news station, Fox, and that he is at the beck and call of every republican cocksucker this side of the Canadian border.

That's an impressive family history. It's also irrelevent in terms of this discussion. My great uncle was at the battle of Iwojima. My grandfather and grandmother both served the army during the Korean war. What the fuck is your point? You should be proud of your relatives who served, but it lends no creedance to your argument. All it proves is that you've swalloed the Amerikan lie. Oh yeah...we're spreading freedom, at the cost of thousands of innocent "collateral damage" casualties which no one bothers counting. We kill women or children or sick or old or wounded because they *might* pose a *slim* threat. We have absolutely no idea when we'll stop OCCUPYING a foriegn nation. People want us gone so bad they're willing to blow themselves up for the cause. Look at the picture I posted above and compare the two quotes. Tell me that I'm making this shit up.

If that's your idea of freedom, you're a fucking moron.

[Robert]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
No...it doesn't help me. Why? Because most of what you said is total and utter crap.

Who are you to say that what my friends have seen and done doesn't reflect the current situation? Have you been there as they have? Have you seen first hand what is going on? No...you haven't, so I'd appreciate it if you'd shut the fuck up and not try to degrade my friends and family who have been there and seen things you've only read about. If you believe what the pentagon has to say, you're just a pawn that will allow himself to be fed any bullshit that comes his way. Why do you think recruitment is down? Because people...even people who would otherwise enlist...know this war is bullshit. And if you're so ready for service, why haven't you enlisted in Canada's army? You won't defend your own homeland but you want to defend a nation that is by and large foolish? Well played, sir.

Your notion that this is a "christian nation" is not only laughable but incredibly ignornant. Remember...you want to emmigrate here. We'll take just about anyone. That means buddhists, communists, atheists, hindus, jews, muslims...anyone who wants in our fucking door. We've even proved it by removing your god from our constitution.

As for the clothes I wear...they're all white T-shirts made in the USA. Same goes for my jeans and my shoes. I do my best to avoid anything that was made or built outside of this country. Do I have things made elsewhere? I'm sure I do. But the next time you sit down to watch TV or type on your computer, you better thank those 18c/hour workers for affording you that luxury before casting stones. There is hardly anyone in this country or on this fucking continent for that matter who cannot say they've purchased things from abroad. My clothes should be the least of your concerns.

As for Israel...have fun throwing around that idea while you're a Canadian. Since Israel's inception we've given them over $1 trillion dollars. They've never paid a dime back. We didn't help them create their country...we (along with several other nations) gave it to them out of pity. Why do you think the Palestinians were so pissed? They'd lived there just fine for the longest time. Then they got told that their country belonged to someone else. I could go into great detail in this subject, but it's a waste of my time in this post. And the only true democracy? That's a joke.

As for the media...if anything they suck the Israeli cock like no one else. God forbid we offend any potential jewish viewers by saying that Israel is wrong or that any muslim nation is right. Just take a look at Hollywood. When was the last time you saw an Israeli hijacker on a plane in some movie? Contrast that with the last time you saw a Mossad agent kill someone. Both instances provide a record of around 0. Now tell me the media, internet or otherwise, has a favorable bias towards anyone BUT Israel (extremists aside). Add to the fact that Rupert Murdock owns what is no doubt your favorite news station, Fox, and that he is at the beck and call of every republican cocksucker this side of the Canadian border.

That's an impressive family history. It's also irrelevent in terms of this discussion. My great uncle was at the battle of Iwojima. My grandfather and grandmother both served the army during the Korean war. What the fuck is your point? You should be proud of your relatives who served, but it lends no creedance to your argument. All it proves is that you've swalloed the Amerikan lie. Oh yeah...we're spreading freedom, at the cost of thousands of innocent "collateral damage" casualties which no one bothers counting. We kill women or children or sick or old or wounded because they *might* pose a *slim* threat. We have absolutely no idea when we'll stop OCCUPYING a foriegn nation. People want us gone so bad they're willing to blow themselves up for the cause. Look at the picture I posted above and compare the two quotes. Tell me that I'm making this shit up.

If that's your idea of freedom, you're a fucking moron.

Thank you for the text book response, insulting me personally, call me a moron and generally displaying every characteristic that should get your post removed.

I in no way was insulting your friends, family or way of living. Only brought up questions about such things. As you have about the way 100,000's of Americans view the world

I'm proud your friends and family have served. Though that doesn't make them, or you experts in world affairs, balance of power, trade or financial incentives.

Where your arguement got weak is where you assume to know better, know the world picture and believe that your judgement on the situation is 100% correct and all others should realize this.

I do not hold myself as teh examlpe, I purchase alot of items made in China. I used this to simply remind you of the world situtation.

You defently have alot of anger in you, which is apparent in your blantant disregard to show any respect and the use of the 'f-word'. If you have to swear to say it, you probably should figure out another way about it. I really expected better and am rather disappointed in your response.

Re : People blowing themselves up. Just because one voice is the loudest doesn't mean thats the voice of all the people. People may be fighting the US but its well known most of these people are not Iraqies themselves. They are coming from all around to fight America. The way they are going about it isnt' respectable combat. Car bombs and the use of small childern is discraceful.

As for the number of US soliders that have died over there. To date is the largest military conflict with the smallest % of deaths. So if you believe that you can goto war without death there is an issue there. Secondly to this point people in the military are aware of this point, death comes with teh job.

Why military enlistment is down. To say its the cause of one aspect, is an uneducated view of the situation and your coment serves to back your point but isn't the full truth. It's a series of reasons, not excluding lack of pay, poor living conditions, few growth opporunities, extended leave from family and high personal injury. Just to list a few.

As for my background, I served to provide you more details about myself to display where I'm coming from. 'You cannot know where you're going unless you remember where you have come from' its a famous quote, though i forget who from.

As for my lack of involvement in the Canadian military. I was once involved, though I removed myself from the process after discovering that a huge precentage of our military force gets desk jobs and our airforce doesn't fly military manuvers outside of our country. Seemed like I would be better off waiting to be in the US military. Added to this I'm getting married in 4 months, finishing up school and moving in a year the timing wasn't there. To put the nail in the coffin, the canadian forces do not allow you to actively serve in two military forces.

I'm sorry you cannot engage in an inteligent discussion.

[GT40FIED]

Meh...I was pretty tanked when I wrote that.:D

On a side note: that's right...drink the kool-aid.

[Robert]

Someone passed this to me, and I thought you might find it interesting.
Thought-provoking...

1. The garden of Eden was in Iraq.

2. Mesopotamia, which is now Iraq, was the cradle of civilization!

3. Noah built the ark in Iraq.

4. The Tower of Babel was in Iraq.

5. Abraham was from Ur, which is in Southern Iraq!

6. Isaac's wife Rebekah is from Nahor, which is in Iraq!

7. Jacob met Rachel in Iraq.

8. Jonah preached in Nineveh, which is in Iraq.

9. Assyria, which is in Iraq, conquered the ten tribes of Israel

10. Amos cried out in Iraq!

11. Babylon, which is in Iraq, destroyed Jerusalem.

12. Daniel was in the lion's den in Iraq!

13. The three Hebrew children were in the fire in Iraq (Jesus had been in
Iraq also as the fourth person in the fiery furnace!)

14 Belshazzar, the King of Babylon saw the "writing on the wall" in Iraq.

15. Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, carried the Jews captive into Iraq.

16. Ezekiel preached in Iraq.

17. The wise men were from Iraq.

18. Peter preached in Iraq.

19. The "Empire of Man" described in Revelation is called Babylon, which was
a city in Iraq!

And you have probably seen this one. Israel is the nation most often
mentioned in the Bible. But do you know which nation is second? It is Iraq!
However,
that is not the name that is used in the Bible. The names used in the Bible
are
Babylon, Land of Shinar, and Mesopotamia. The word Mesopotamia means between
the two rivers, more exactly between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers The
name
Iraq, means country with deep roots.

Indeed Iraq is a country with deep roots and is a very significant country
in
the Bible.

No other nation, except Israel, has more history and prophecy associated it
than Iraq.

[GT40FIED]

I guess that makes sense...if you blatantly ignore facts.

Mesopotamia is actually much farther reaching than Iraq. It also includes parts of Syria and Turkey. It's a huge piece of land almost as big as the former Ottoman empire which Iraq was originally part of until the end of WWI when a bunch of white guys got together and decided to draw lines on a map disregarding cultural and religious differences between any given regions.

Shinar is just a generic reference to the same region as Mesopotamia. It's simply the name given to a large plain where people settled after "the flood" (if you buy that sort of thing). The bible does say that the tower of Babel was built there...but not where. And it rarely appears by that name in the bible at all.

Furthermore, what does this have to do with anything at all? Most of the things mentioned in that email (I assume that's the format in which crap like that circulates) are just parts of parables. Their bedtime stories you tell your kids...not elaborate mythologies you mantain when you're 15 or 20 or 30. It mentions the tower of Babel and the ark...neither of which to my knowledge have been proven to exist. I know for sure the ark hasn't popped up on the grid. You'd think people would know better to keep track of objects that are foundations of a major religion. Much like the holy grail, the spear of Longinus, and the shroud of Turin, it's all just conjecture and "maybes" or "what ifs". I'm not saying they're not real because they haven't been found. I'm saying they haven't been found because they're most likely not real.

[CD5Passion]

I learned a after reading these threads, Robert there is something you have to understand Steve is well read about anything he speaks about. If he's doesn't know about something he doesn't talk.

I have plenty of friends (along with myself) who did not join the military because of the fact this war is not something I want to look back at in 10-20 years and say "i was part of that" instead I will look back and say "why?"

before the 9/11 attacks I had every intention on joining either the air force because i wanted to experience something so vastly different from the life I had then. I graduated in 2004 from highschool and decided to avoid the military because i didn't agree with anything we were doing over there.

You use the christian religion as though it is such a great thing. Sure the idea of the religion is great but because it is in the hands of human beings who are by nature greedy evil plaques on the earth. Since the dawn of religion, major wars, crusades and persecutions have been in the name of Christianity and many other religions. Even the Nazi regime cast the war in the name of christianity.:crazy:

[Robert]

CD5 - Just because Steve says it doesn't mean I'm going to believe it. He may be well read though his education nor proffesion from my understand is surronding such issues, which makes him an authority on none of this.

Why I brought up the Christian issue is because it can't be ignored. It's a huge part of America, even if you dont follow the faith. It's engrained in America down to the constitution.

If Steve was on the money and this whole war was a scam, dont you think people much higher then him would be doing something about it? Why hasn't anyone put an end to this? You can blame bush all you want for this war, it wasn't passed on him alone.

Further more, the whole tone of his comments are arrangant. He presumes to know more abuot whats going on in the world and has the answer to issues. To assume he knows all the details and has judge the situtation is arrangance. It my be a slightly informed view but boarder lines on concpericy theory. All of which lead to unfounded assumptions and piecing together of facts that are often taken out of context.

And you're right, alot of bad things have been done in the name of religion. Though alot of really good things have happened as well. Its a sad aspect of life though when people focus on the bad more then the good. People are flawed, they will make mistakes; thats reality.

[GT40FIED]

Rob...once again you've missed the point.

I'm not saying it's a scam. It's an outright lie. There's no conspiracy theory about it. A conspiracy requires some level of secrecy. All of the facts have been laid of for you for years. Whether or not you choose to observe them is your decision. Speaking of facts, here's a few:

-Iraq had no WMDs. We knew this before going in and so did the rest of the world. They were smart enough to keep out of it. We had an adgenda. We originally stated that the time to invade was now...there was no time to wait. When the U.N. asked for our proof, we said we needed more time. Convinient.

-We have lost more freedom as Americans in the last year than in than we had previously lost in the last 200 years...all in the name of "security" (you apparently haven't browsed over the Patriot Act). Ben Franklin once said "Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" (to paraphrase). Bush's illegal wiretaps and well documented history of lies should be enough to tell you that.

-There is no "war". Congress hasn't declared war since WWII. All other conflicts were approved as military actions. To say one is "pro-war" is to say one supports murder. One human killing another is murder, plain and simple. I don't care what the circumstances are. To be for a war is also to say that one approves of his own countrymen dying in the selfish benefit of his cause, whatever that may be. If you're ok with your own people being killed, good for you. I'm not.

-I'm not sure how you can say religion plays into any of this...other than the fact that there were a bunch of assholes voting for Bush because he went to the same church they did. Jesus has no place in law...just like facts have no place in organized religion. We even put it into our constitution...the seperation of church and state. While it's true this country might have been founded by puritans, most of us have grown up since then and realized that's not how you run a country. While I'm sure you're a fan of Rick Santorum (who should be in jail for any one of a dozen reasons), this country is hedonistic as fuck and we like it that way. Go to church all you want...there aren't many people listening who don't want your vote for one reason or another. And while I'm thinking about church, forget that altogether. Read up on the Gospel of St. Thomas...and then forget about church on it's entirety.

-These things are merely my opinons. If you want to believe I dictate them as fact that is (for the most part) your problem. This is simply what I've come to know to be true through reading, talking to people who have been there and lived it, and pure logic. Nothing too complex, just logic pure and simple. if your mind is clouded by judgemental beliefs, so be it. That doesn't mean that everyone or even anyone is on your side.

And one more thing. "CD5"...his name is Darin. Maybe if you cared enough about this board to participate rather than stir up an argument, you'd know that.

[Robert]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
And one more thing. "CD5"...his name is Darin. Maybe if you cared enough about this board to participate rather than stir up an argument, you'd know that.

Thank you for that info. I was unaware his name was Darin.

As for caring, I haven't called you any names or shown hostililty towards you. Dont mistaken my lack of push over for your ideas to sugguest I am 'stirring up argument'. People have different points of views. I have laid mine out on the table in an unoffence way. It just doesn't happen to be the say as yours. I had hoped you would have communicated to a better standard in the past

I dont have to like you to show some amount of respect for your comments. It appears however you aren't able to due the same. I choose not to respond to your replies on this topic after you were extreemly rude. That is why I replied to Darin's post and not yours.

For all who wonder why people dont stick around long, membership is down and daily posts are horrible. Simply read back to the verbal abuse that was sent my way, where I was completely disrespected. Had I said anything along those lines I would have been baned, however GT gets away with it.

[GT40FIED]

Oh boo hoo. It's just a play straight out of the Biker playbook. You make statements that may not be offensive at face value, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows exactly what you're getting at. Then when someone calls bullshit you throw your hands up as if to say "what'd I do?". I was completely polite and respectful until you made comments that I deemed to be inappropriate and borderline offensive. After you walk down that path, anything is fair game. You can't expect to belittle people directly or indirectly and have them treat you with a higher level of respect. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's inflammitory or offensive...it matters how others perceive it. The only reason I "get away with it" (implying there's some double standard...there's not) is because I'm generally respectful of other people's opinions until that line is crossed. However, if and when that line is crossed I will not hold back a single bit. You'll notice that aside from the one post I made (which I made while I was admittedly a bit intoxicated) which was made after some comments you made that I found to be off color...and even then I could have come out swinging a lot worse then I did. And please don't pretend that anything I've said to you applies to membership here. You've got a reputation around here Rob...and it's not a good one. Yeah...you've been banned (twice)...but I'm the one with the problem.

Next time you wanna cry foul, make sure your hands are clean as well.

[Si-R CRX]

Well..........Thats all I have that

[Robert]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Oh boo hoo. It's just a play straight out of the Biker playbook. You make statements that may not be offensive at face value, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows exactly what you're getting at. Then when someone calls bullshit you throw your hands up as if to say "what'd I do?". I was completely polite and respectful until you made comments that I deemed to be inappropriate and borderline offensive. After you walk down that path, anything is fair game. You can't expect to belittle people directly or indirectly and have them treat you with a higher level of respect. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's inflammitory or offensive...it matters how others perceive it. The only reason I "get away with it" (implying there's some double standard...there's not) is because I'm generally respectful of other people's opinions until that line is crossed. However, if and when that line is crossed I will not hold back a single bit. You'll notice that aside from the one post I made (which I made while I was admittedly a bit intoxicated) which was made after some comments you made that I found to be off color...and even then I could have come out swinging a lot worse then I did. And please don't pretend that anything I've said to you applies to membership here. You've got a reputation around here Rob...and it's not a good one. Yeah...you've been banned (twice)...but I'm the one with the problem.

Next time you wanna cry foul, make sure your hands are clean as well.

The first sign of weak discussion is when one of the parties starts insulting the other. You my friend discuss weak.

The rep you're talking about is 2 years old. At some point in time you will have to stop painting me with the same brush.

You've got some serious issues and anger. No one needs to deal with that, being drunk doesn't get you off the hook. You make it hard to stop by here regularly, and this whole thing puts a bad taste in my mouth. If your goal was to have me here less, you might have just done that.

Before you got labeling me, which I'm surprise you would do; look at my posts since I've been back.

However I'm finished with this thread.

[GT40FIED]

Sure...it's my problem, not yours. I "discuss weak" because you pull bullshit. I "don't show respect" after you respond in kind. Maybe being tanked isn't an excuse for what I posted, but you posted while sober making you doubley at fault. Say you're done with this thread all you like...I know you'll still read this.

As for your reputation...it may be two years old but it's as strong today as it ever was. I've read all of your recent posts and they're quite on par with everything in the past. If you think you're fooling anyone, you're not.

If you want to talk issues and anger with a psych major, go right ahead. It won't get you anywhere. I know my issues and anger, but I seriously doubt you know your short comings and insecurities. The weakest point of any respectable debate is when someone brings up another person's psychological issues. It's a quick and cheap way of rationalizing why another person opposses their views. If you you don't like what I have to say it must be because I have "issues and anger", right? Wrong. It's because you've run out of ideas and you want to cry foul as per usual. You must really love America...you so idealize pawning of the responsibility for your actions on others.

As you much as you want to whine and bitch, no one's labeled you. You've labeled yourself. As I stated I've watched closely your posts since you were allowed back onto the board and I can say for myself that I haven't seen any changes in your behavior. You can disagree all you like, but thankfully your conjecture has no impact on how I see you. You may like to think you're putting one over on everyone, but you're sadly mistaken. You're still the same "mt. biker" and "biker's back" that got banned twice before for being an asshole. Keep that in mind.

[ChrisCantSkate]

GT, i think you took a few low blows at rob, and completely stuck your head in the ground when he made valid points but thats another issue...

when it comes down to it, freedom isnt free. we had to fight off the english, we had to go through our time of being opressive with the indians and slaves, we had to work through our problems to come out as who we are today.

freedom is the ability to more or less live your life the way you want to. to say we are "free" is a lie. we are trying to help a very stressed part of the world mature into a place where the people are aloud to live their lives without fear of their government or terrorist of any kind. when those civil liberties are jepordized then someone has to step in.

im not gonna argue right or wrong about invading, since that wasnt the topic, at least i think it wasnt, the shit tossing obscured what was trying to be said. but are we doing good? its too soon to tell. you cant just point and tell a country to become free. it takes time. i think its working, maybe not as fast as we wana see results, but it is for the greater good. to think anytyhing other than that is ignorant. as rob said you can buy alot more oil with half a trillion dollars than what we'll get out of iraq. any economist would agree there was no way we did this to secure oil for ourselves when we could have bought it for cheaper and saved our american lives and let sadam go on doing his thing. however we stepped in because of who he was and what he could/would/is doing. sometimes what is right, and what seems morally right are not the same things. remeber the world goes on for more than 20 40 or 60 years our "free" nation started in 1776, think of all the shit our country has hidden in its closet. its a process that we are trying to get them started on.

[GT40FIED]

I suppose validity is a poit of view issue. I see faults with what Rob posted because I disagree with him, thus making them invalid to me. As for "low blows", I've pretty much been over that. You reap what you sew...plain and simple. That's neither here nor there, though.

To the issue of freedom, all I have to say is this...freedom is subjective. There are over 6 billion people on this planet. That's 6 billion different kinds of freedom. It also means there's 6 billion different ideas on war and peace and etc. etc. etc. That part of the world will always have issues with freedom in the eyes of this country by their very culture. Just look at the way muslim women live. A normal way of life to them is for the most part unthinkable to American women. If terrorists really hated freedom, why not attack some place like Holland? I'm pretty sure the only things you CAN'T do there are kill someone or steal. That's obviously an oversimplification, but you get the idea. The people of any country are as free as they want to be. If the tables were turned and Iraq had invaded us in the name of freedom, you can bet we'd be doing exactly what they're doing. There'd be riots in the streets and all hell would break loose. Iraq could have been free without our help if they'd had the backbone to stand up to Saddam. Sure...he had a horrible reputation but, as you pointed out, we fought off what was the largest empire in the world at the time for our freedom. Simply put, if Iraqis had wanted it bad enough they could have taken their country back themselves. They didn't need us to do it.

I don't know that I've ever said that this war was for oil. Anyone who originally thought that might have been justified in thinking so (regardless of what the government has ever said, they lie), but now I think most people can see it's not about that. If anything oil will go higher if we hold true to sanctioning Iran since they said such sanctions would cause them to hold back their oil (which could push oil to $90/barrel). Like I said, we don't fight wars, we take sides. As I see it there's no reason for us to keep going the way we're going. If we take on any and every country we thought was oppressed or lacking freedom we'd implode and our military would shatter. Between Iran, Syria, North Korea, and others, we can't just run around spreading freedom. So if that's the case you have to ask the logical question why Iraq and why now? I could speculate...but it'd be just that...speculation. I have my own ideas but they'd likely be dismissed as conspiracy-driven crazyness. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.