How much do you trust the government?

[GT40FIED]

I think it can be said outright without argument that governments lie. For any number of reasons about any number of things. However, how far does the government's line of credit extend with you? There exist so many problems of logic amongst our own government's explanations of certain events. Take UFOs, for instance. If you believe that UFOs exist then the following line of logic must be explored:

1. If UFOs are real, the government knows about them.

2. If the government knows about UFOs, they are doing something about them.

3. If the government is doing something about them, they sure as shit aren't telling us.

Conspiracy theories can be formed about any number of things but the lion's share have one common factor: at least a small element of truth. For instance, many people believe that our government was either complacent or even involved in the events of 9/11. Most people would outright dismiss this (they have to...to even ponder that the people supposed to be looking out for them would do something so horrible doesn't work psychologically)...but there are certain elements some people will point to that makes one question the authenticity of the government's claims. For instance, in a PBS documentary the owner of the WTC plaza (Larry Silverstein) discussed his decision to "pull" building 7 ("pull" being an industry term for controlled demolition). This begs the question of why were they able to do it in the first place (something that would take days or weeks to setup) just as it begs the question of why the FEMA report lists the cause of it's fall as fire damage (it should be noted that no steel building in history has toppled due to fire damage alone and this building was not hit with any debris). Also wonder at how the towers themselves fell in such pancake-like uniformity...also like a controlled demoltion (so much so that even journalists live on the air made the connection). I, for one, won't subscribe to either side. That is to say I can see the importance in these questions but will stop short of putting on my tin foil hat. So how much do you trust the government to tell you the truth? Before anyone brings it up, yes, I understand that some things are kept from the public due to security interests. While I despise our own government for treating us like sheep in that respect, I know all to well that while a person can be smart, people are usually panicky idiots. Thoughts?

[Wren57]

I trust the government about as far as I can throw it... and given the size of it, that isn't very far. That said, while I know they aren't being entirely honest on the surface, I believe that underneath they are doing things to protect this country's wellbeing for long into the future.

Steve, I truly hope you aren't trying to accuse the government (on any level) with involvement in 9/11. No steel building has ever had jet fuel burn in it (do you realize how hot jet fuel burns?), nor is any steel building as heavy as the WTC. You say the buildings weren't hit with debris? Well what the FUCK do you call a 747 travelling at 400+ mph... thats some serious fucking debris if you ask me...

I can't wait to be in politics so I fully understand all of this...

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by highlander
Steve, I truly hope you aren't trying to accuse the government (on any level) with involvement in 9/11. No steel building has ever had jet fuel burn in it (do you realize how hot jet fuel burns?), nor is any steel building as heavy as the WTC. You say the buildings weren't hit with debris? Well what the FUCK do you call a 747 travelling at 400+ mph... thats some serious fucking debris if you ask me...

Yes...I realize how hot jet fuel burns...and generally it's not hot enough to melt high grade industrial steel. Also, had the collapse been caused solely by fire damage, one would expect it to to topple top side first...not in a virtually straight down motion. However, the building I'm talking about (WTC 7) was NOT either of the two buildings hit (WTC 1 & 2). WTC 7 was an adjacent building not affected by any major debris. It did catch fire, but they "pulled" it late in the afternoon. Many similar, bigger steel buildings have burned through and through for as long as 3 days without fallings. Eventually the fire would've just burned itself out (had it been that bad, which it wasn't). As for whether or not I'm trying to accuse the government of anything...not directly. I am, however, seriously concerned with their web of bullshit. If they've got nothing to hide, why are they lying?

[CD5Passion]

Steve has brought this up to me before because we from time to time have conspiracy conversations but it makes sense to me. as much as i would like to beleive that our own government wants to keep us safe no matter what it just doesn't make sense to me that there is so much secracy.
I always found it kinda weird that the buildings did in fact collapse from underneath, and everytime I can replay it in my head it reminds me of demolitions. the planes hit the top of the structure, if it were to collapse so easier that top section should've crumbled within minutes before the bottom gave out. the top half looked quite sturdy despite the fact it was burning out and had a huge plane hit it

[ChrisCantSkate]

trust the government? not completely. i dont know about the whole 9/11 thing though, theres some interesting details of the whole thing that do raise questions without answers

[guywithastang]

As having brought down a few silos I can tell you a tall structure tends to fall straight down. watch the video of the collapse and you can see that they fall from the top. The weight crushes the lower floors and down it goes.

there is a saying in the science community "The simple answer is usually the correct one". Plane hits building, building falls down.



conspiracy theories are usually pretty stupid if you ask me.


evenso I will continue to expand my collection of guns just in case :)

[mylittlecivic]

i think the government does the best they can to keep everything in line, thats their job. But if and when they will do what they want to better their situation because they are corrupt in many ways.

[VonDigger]

On the collapse part of it I agree with Guy. As far as trusting the government though. Lets put it this way, you name a president and I bet there were a heap of dirty deals and lies that we will never know about. 9 times out of 10 though, I bet they were made for our "protection". But as far as trusting the government 100%, don't think so man. Thats why I am registered as an independant for elections. I basically vote for what I think the lesser of the evils will be.

[2ndGenTeg]

Funny how the weight on top of the lower floors were never a problem before the top floors were on fire. Also keep in mind that all jet fuel was gone within seconds- it wasn't jet fuel burning the whole time. If the building was hit from the side, wouldn't the top fall off, toward the side that was hit? If it did fall straight down, I still find it hard to believe that the floors underneath those burning would have little enough structural integrity to collapse straight down like they did, all the way to the ground. Finally, notice how even if this is a set of circumstances, both towers collapsed in exactly the same fashion.

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php#Preloader

Think about the implications of this. What hit the pentagon? Where did it go? Where did it come from and who is responsible? Why did they do it?

Think outside the box, think for yourself rather than believing what you're force fed. You might be surprised what you end up believing. Or don't because you're scared of what it might mean.

[Mischief]

You do realize fires that large will burn for quite a while, and smolder even longer.. I somehow knew the "pentagon conspiracy" flash would be posted in here. It's not hard to make up fake witnesses, either.

[2ndGenTeg]

You read everything I had to say, and all you have to say is "Big fires burn long time!"? Thanks, Chief Tanto.

Smoldering embers don't cause steel to collapse. That fire, as it burned, was not enough to make those towers collapse. Even if it was, the way they did defies any good explanation save one.

This is why I don't get engaged in 9/11 conversations. People don't listen, and what I have to say is extremely unpopular.

You're right- making up witnesses is easy. So ignore the witness quotes and watch the rest. You know what is hard, though? Finding a picture of the pentagon with any trace that a plane was ever there. It's even easiest, though, to simply dismiss what you don't want to believe.

[Mischief]

or if you had any idea of what I was talking about, SINCE YOUR POST HAD TO DO WITH THE PENTAGON, I was talking about the smoldering pentagon pictures.. How do you have any idea those pictures were taken right after the crash?

[CD5Passion]

yeah to look at both sides, those pictures could've been taken after the wreckage was removed..but who knows

[nonovurbizniz]

I'm full bore conspiracy theorist...

Don't get me wrong I don't buy into all the theories out there... but if I woke up tomorrow and the gov't announced that there was a full scale invasion and they sold us off as slaves to the aliens to save their own skins... I wouldn't be shocked at all.

I started out young and thinking all the conspiracies were true... but later started to think no that's not possible... but now a days I look at it like this:

EVERYONE in gov't says that the corruption and lack of progress in gov't is due to the minority... and that in general the people envolved in gov't are there to try to make change that they think is helpful...

I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS FOR A SECOND.

EVERYONE in gov't is there because they're either power hungry or egotistical as all hell...

I'd say between the actual existance of the tri-lateral commission and events since the current monkey-dent took office that it's pretty clear there are conspiracys ALL OVER.

The messed up part about it though is that both sides are headed in the same directiion just down different paths... with different rhetoric.

it's def. a conspiracy... when bush sr. and clinton are on a world tour together it's pretty clear to me everyone is corrupt and free of actual moral standing.

Forget getting blojobs in the oval office, forget starting a war over trumped up hype because you want to... these dudes are straight up engineering our demise through their own greed...

EVERYONE should read ted kazinski's manifest... it's the truth...

They occupy us with bickering over un-important issues to distract us from the real issue...

The world is going to end... we're destroying the earth and it's going to shake us loose.

As far as the 9/11 things...

A. I do believe it was an attack by bin laden... I also believe that either the israeli or the american gov't KNEW about it... maybe just the israeli's but either way it probobly could have been prevented. And there were NUMEROUS people inside the gov't who outwardly scream that they were warning of this EXACT event for YEARS before it happened...

The fact is the guy responsible for the first WTC bombing said quite clearly... one day I'll have enough explosives and those buildings will fall.

B. As far as the collapses'... that was 100% (imo) due to the planes hitting... I watched the whole thing go down on TV that day... i could see the smoke from the buildings from my office... The top floors of the building fell as one still intact... there was probobly 1-2 week floors due to the fires (the building's fire retardant coating on the steel structure of the building was in ashambles before anything hit).

After the top section fell just one floor it started a chain reaction where it kept collapsing the floors below... the top collapses last when it had soo much momentum landing on the bottom.

There was a great special on discovery or history channel with the guy who designed the buildings... it shows very clearly an intact top section crushing the floors below... it even involved cad drawings of the frame of the building and what was most likely happening to it.

The easiest conspiracy tied to the WTC though is clearly the current war we're envolved in... the first words out of my mouth were we're going to go to war with Iraq...

When bush came out a couple days later and said there was no apparent ties to Iraq I was FLOORED... then all of a sudden there was a tie again... and now we invaded the country... all because

"THAT NIGGA TRIED TO KILL MY FAAAAATTHHHHAAAA!!"

Bush is nuts... the whole gov't is corropt and devoid of any true heros' we're all doomed.

have a good weekend.

[CD5Passion]

^ thanks for that eye opener lol
I'm on this dude's side, i saw we get some arms and build a bunker

[Wren57]

I'm not gonna butt heads with ya on most of what you posted (because we both know where that will lead), but I will respond to this;

EVERYONE in gov't is there because they're either power hungry or egotistical as all hell...

That is untrue. I plan on entering politics after a term of military service, and I'm not doing it because I'm power hungry or egotistical. I see a lot of things wrong with the system and the way things are run and truly believe I can make a positive impact. Call me naive, but it is all true. Surely I'm not the only person in all of politics to have that motive... (not saying everyone does, just denouncing your absolutist view).

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
Also keep in mind that all jet fuel was gone within seconds- it wasn't jet fuel burning the whole time.

jet fuel burns for a while and very hot. my dad had to use some to burn something at a job of his 20 something years ago and the 55 gal drum they used burned for 2 days. it was in a more confined area and wasnt "exploded" everywhere but that fire burnt for a long time and very hot, it could have easily melted steel

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by 2ndGenTeg
This is why I don't get engaged in 9/11 conversations. People don't listen, and what I have to say is extremely unpopular.


I hear that. Like I said, most people simply can't even entertain the idea because psychologically it just doesn't work. Then again, this is the same government that openly admitted to dosing unknown foreign diplomats with LSD (which caused one death) during "operation 3rd chance" and feeding radioactive mush to retarded kids just to see what would happen. In that light, I feel pretty vindicated being suspicious of them. In my mind there are a few questions that need to be answered with the truth before I'll ever trust them even the slightest bit.

1. Why were enough explosives in WTC 7 to pull it in the first place? Generally buildings don't just sit around with tons of strategically placed explosives inside. If that were the case, any disgruntled employee could simply push a red button and *boom*...end of story. Oh...and a secret service member died inside that building when it was pulled. Why hasn't anyone been charged with felony murder?

2. Who placed anonymous put options against American and United Airlines just prior to the attack? Seriously...call up a broker right now and try to buy stocks, a mutual fund, some futures, or put options without providing your identity. Do it...I'll wait. You won't get very far. Given the huge amounts of profit, a certain government might want to take a second look as this "anonymous" person likely had prior knowledge of...something. This was actually briefly reported in major news outlets that aren't Fox News not long after the attacks. Then *poof*...it disappeared like magic.

3. Why was the south tower closed above the 50th floor on 9/8 and 9/9...the only people allowed in being a hoarde of engineers? Could it have to do with what firefighters reported on dispatch tapes as "bombs" going off seconds before the tower fell? You know, the tapes that the government says doesn't exist but the same tapes that somehow ended up in the hands of the NY Times? Perhaps it also has something to do with seismograph readings that show multiple explosions in that area.

Again, I'll stop short of coming right out and saying that the government needs to fess up to some extremely serious charges...but they do need to start giving some explanations. Unless it is their fault, in which case...well...let's just say I wouldn't be floored. I honestly didn't intend for this to become about 9/11. That was just an example. Hell...I could have used any number of other projects/events to prove the point. MKULTRA, HAARP, Majestic 12, Task Force 121, Operation Third Chance, Permindex, The Bilderberg Group, The Carlyle Group, etc. It's all the same.

[Violent Apathy]

I just stopped caring, fuck it I'm just gonna live my life. O_o

[Wren57]

Yeah, I think for now, in my position of no power to do anything about it anyway, I'm gonna make a margarita and have some friends over...

[Mischief]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
"THAT NIGGA TRIED TO KILL MY FAAAAATTHHHHAAAA!!"


HAHAHHAAH YESSS BLACK BUSH!!! :D :D chapelle is the man

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
jet fuel burns for a while and very hot. my dad had to use some to burn something at a job of his 20 something years ago and the 55 gal drum they used burned for 2 days. it was in a more confined area and wasnt "exploded" everywhere but that fire burnt for a long time and very hot, it could have easily melted steel

Actually jet fuel burns at roughly 550 degrees celsius (roughly 1,000 degrees fahrenheit) depending on evironmental factors like wind, oxygen supply, etc. The steel in the two main towers was high grade industrial steel certified to 3,000 degrees fahrenheit (though it probably would've softened considerably around 2,500 degrees since 3,000 is the melting point). Similarly, not long ago, a hotel building in Madrid of similar construction burned continually for 3 days at a temperature of around 800 degrees celsius (close to 1,500 fahrenheit). What happened to it? It's frame is still standing waiting to be dismantled by the city.

[nonovurbizniz]

Lots of good insights from Gt... he's been doing his conspiracy research.

Like I said.. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that was the case...

however from the inside of a building it would certainly sound like explosions when the top 1/10th of a building one by one collapeses the floors beneath...

GT... Have you seen that documentary that interviews people who were there through the time line giving all their stories... it's really good... hard to watch but good.

[nonovurbizniz]

Originally posted by highlander
I'm not gonna butt heads with ya on most of what you posted (because we both know where that will lead), but I will respond to this;



That is untrue. I plan on entering politics after a term of military service, and I'm not doing it because I'm power hungry or egotistical. I see a lot of things wrong with the system and the way things are run and truly believe I can make a positive impact. Call me naive, but it is all true. Surely I'm not the only person in all of politics to have that motive... (not saying everyone does, just denouncing your absolutist view).

LOL...

You're right... not everyone there is there BECAUSE they're egotistical or power hungry... but everyone there IS egotistical or power hungry.

Think about it... if you aknowledge that the majority (and especially those highest up) are corupt... then it's egotistical to think you can go in and:
A. Make them change or change the system.
B. Not become corupt yourself.
C. Survive surrounded by sharks.

take it with a grain of salt... but it is the truth... You KNOW it's ALL f'd up in Washington... if you think you can go in and make it un F'd up then you definately have some ego issues.

[ebpda9]

all there is to know about politics is: power and money.

[black95gs-t]

I wish that I didn't work for the gov't so that I could comment on this.