A religous thread, topic; Heaven

[Wren57]

I think most of you know my stance on religion and the existance of God. This is not a thread to debate God, Lucifer, or why people believe or disbelieve. Save all that for other threads, please. One of the loopholes I see in religion is the existance of heaven. I understand hell; it is eternal torture for evils committed on Earth; yeah, that would suck. But what about heaven? If it is truly a 100% peaceful, blissful, and perfect place, would it not be boring? What would you do for all eternity? So much of what we do on Earth, especially in captialist America, is driven by competition. In a perfect heaven, nobody can lose, nobody can win, so therefore is there no competition? Also, there would be no challenges. For example, building a house or even something as simple as cooking a good meal could be a challenge on Earth. If everything is perfect in heaven, it is easy, and we can do everything perfectly, so the challenge is lost in building that house and cooking that meal; so does the sense of satisfaction of achievement disappear as well? IS there even anything to achieve in heaven? If not, why even continue to exist? (can you tell I'm a functionalist?)

Just something I've always wondered... I think heaven would be awful boring (although better than hell)... just rambling thoughts.

Discuss.

[mavaaoife]

In the jewish religon.. the way to acheve heaven status is to complete 613 mitzvahs (good deeds).. Like you earn you way to heaven i guess. But jewish peeps also dont believe in hell so.. it kind of doesnt make sense in a way...

[GT40FIED]

Well...most people I've met will tell you that "heaven" is whatever you want it to be. That's crap. Wren, this is probably the first and last time you and I will ever agree on a religious topic. I think the idea of heaven as a "paradise" would suck. Sure, it would be good for a short while...but what of eternity? Man...if there were no conflict (internal or external) for eternity, surely people would become insane. Like you said, if every house I built were a mansion and every meal I cooked were gourmet, it would lose it's specialty after a while. It would be like an episode of The Twilight Zone. Particularly the one where that one guy is the sole survivor of that huge war and all he wants to do is read...then he breaks his glasses. When faced with limitless possibilities for happiness, how would one confront their perfect desires if they were readily available on a daily basis? Personally, I would think that perfection would be achieved in the buddhist-like reincarnation...but only if I could retain my full consciousness in my next life. There's not much chance of me being me if I come back as a butterfly. If there is a heaven, I want it to be simply an extentionof my life on this planet. I want conflicts, I want problems, I want dilemas. Without those, where's the joy in triumph?

[AzCivic]

your first mistake is to trying to compare heaven to anything that has to do w/ the world including human emotions.

[mavaaoife]

^5 I agree

[mylittlecivic]

Well I believe hell is just another word' or way of saying the common grave, people die their thoughts perish, its in the bible. The bible also says that heaven is a place that only a certain amount of people will go to. But most people will be ressurected to earth when it is time in gods eyes, Then those people will have eternal life, slowly become perfect again,& restore the earth to paradise, just as was gods original plan before satan challenged his solveriegnty.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
your first mistake is to trying to compare heaven to anything that has to do w/ the world including human emotions.

Well that becomes one of the problems, too. With infinite possibilities comes infinite opinions. Nobody will ever know about "heaven" or if one even exists until they die...and chances are once that happens they're not going to be able to tell you about it. I'd like to think if I did "go" somewhere after I died, that it'd be a semi-extention of my normal life. I think all religions that contain a paradise after death (which is just about all of them) leave them intentionally vague on purpose. That way you can form your own idea in your head of how it's supposed to be. Otherwise you could decide you didn't like someone else's version and say screw it.

[Fatal070]

Well I just try to do my best to do good and have is much fun as I can and just hope for the best when I die.... My one friend does not believe in heaven or hell... He believes when you die you just pretty much sleep....;(

[B16DoHcCrx033003]

^ I don't know if he is talking about me. I also feel that way. I dont believe in anything. I believe we are here and then we die. Thats it. No heaven no hell. No God no jesus. Just humans and animals. Most people so i am going tohell for thinking this. Well, how am i suppost to go to what i dont believe. Maybe when you die your going to my hell????:confused:

[Fatal070]

Tim I was talking about Brett... I didn't know you believed the same, we'll have to talk about that I do believe in a higher power..

[B16DoHcCrx033003]

Oh i didnt know if you knew what i believed in or not. I also feel the same as Brett tho. I DO NOT want to offend anyone by saying this remember this is MY OPINION! Nothing to get made over. Anyways i think that some guy just wrote the bible in his basement and made everyone believe it. There is no proof of anything. Who knows everyone in US could have been led into a lie their whole life. We would never know. I do support what other people believe tho. As for me it's just a little different.

[Mischief]

when you think about dying and shit like that and what there is afterwards don't you sometimes wish you could almost die now just to find out.. curiousity killed the cat.. it's almost like reading a book.. you want to skip a few pages to find out what happens

[Fatal070]

naaa I'd rather find out later... lol like 60 years later...

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by B16DoHcCrx033003
Anyways i think that some guy just wrote the bible in his basement and made everyone believe it. There is no proof of anything.

how do you know there is no proof? because if there was, surely the school you attended would tell you about it? this same school of course being a part of a school system that shuns any attempt at religious teaching..

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Well that becomes one of the problems, too. With infinite possibilities comes infinite opinions. Nobody will ever know about "heaven" or if one even exists until they die...and chances are once that happens they're not going to be able to tell you about it. I'd like to think if I did "go" somewhere after I died, that it'd be a semi-extention of my normal life. I think all religions that contain a paradise after death (which is just about all of them) leave them intentionally vague on purpose. That way you can form your own idea in your head of how it's supposed to be. Otherwise you could decide you didn't like someone else's version and say screw it.

there are clues as to what heaven is like in the bible some being pretty specific, i just can't remember exactly what they said.

isnt the muslim idea of heaven kind of like what you want, an extension of this life, but in a paradise. and if you die in the fight to win the holy war, you get a bunch of virgins or something?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
there are clues as to what heaven is like in the bible some being pretty specific, i just can't remember exactly what they said.

isnt the muslim idea of heaven kind of like what you want, an extension of this life, but in a paradise. and if you die in the fight to win the holy war, you get a bunch of virgins or something?

Man, I don't know. So many people have perferted the Qur'an lately that I don't know what's true and what's not. I don't think paradise is for me, though. Paradise (at least at face value) would be without conflict, and without conflict there's no sense of victory or triumph. And 72 virgins? In heaven? Wouldn't that be kind of...ummm...messy?:D

And to an extent I have to agree with B16dohc...I don't think the bible was "written by some guy in his basement", but I do KNOW it was written by possibly as many as dozens of people over a few hundred years. I also believe that it's important lies in the message, not it's details. I think it's more important to read it as a parable than a play-by-play of how to live your life. I mean...bushes sponataneously bursting into flames, people turning into salt, and virgin births are just a bit much for me to swallow as truths. Metaphors, sure. But not truths.

[B16DoHcCrx033003]

I feel the same way. All the miracles that happened back them never happen now. When do you hear a virigin getting pregnant...... yeah i haven't. Rmember these are just our opinions nothing else. Cause i know someone is going to get offended and cry about it.

[KwikR6]

I believe in heaven. Although I'm not educated enough to make any huge valid points about heaven right now. I haven't read the bible, or studied enough. I do however think that no matter how much we think we know, or want to know, it'll be completely different then what anyone expected.

[AzCivic]

i kind of find it funny (and please don't be offended) that the same people who will not and cannot believe in such things as miracles in the bible, are also the same who have no problem entertaining the idea of aliens, ufo's, and crop circles.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i kind of find it funny (and please don't be offended) that the same people who will not and cannot believe in such things as miracles in the bible, are also the same who have no problem entertaining the idea of aliens, ufo's, and crop circles.

Well...that's 2 entirely different belief systems. Alien life is pretty much a scientific certainty. Billions of galaxies with millions of planets each, it's not a big leap to think we're not alone. Whether or not they visit us is a bit different...more of a leap of faith...but again it's backed up by some decent evidence. Miracles in the bible are almost all purely leaps of faith. It's sort of "he said, she said". People who believe in "the good book" will be much more inclined to accept these "miracles" than people who don't. People who don't particularly believe will want proof. Problem being that over 2000 years, proof (if any) is most likely gone. I actually think most of the things in the bible occured (save water into wine, turning one fish into 100, etc.)...but that there are explanations for them not understood by people who threw stones at their own shadows and died of old age and fear at 37.

People also tend to look at things differently now. 2000 years ago if you claimed "god" (or insert likewise diety here) spoke to you, you were a prophet. Now if "god" speaks to you, they load you up on anti-psychotics after letting you out of your padded cell. Look no further than Koresh or Jim Jones. They called themselves messiahs or prophets and everyone (with the exception of their followers) regarded them as nutjobs. What makes it so much less likely that they were the real deal vs. Jesus? People also seem to make religious much more symbolic (especially catholics since they have an extremely elaborate hierarchy) than I think it needs to be. If a god does exist, he/she/it certainly isn't found inside the metal and sheetrock of a church. I'd be much more inclined to believe that a god only lives inside of the people who believe. Without their belief, said god ceases to exist. But then again maybe that's just me.

[AzCivic]

you see aliens as a scientific certainty, while there has been NO real proof whether your talking about little microbes or little green men trapped at area51. I feel the same, there's a good chance that something somewhere is out there, however I have no proof, its all just speculation based on probabilty.

the existence of God and the heaven that comes along w/ this belief is also based on probability, which i've talked about before.

so neither one has any hard proof to back up the belief, if there was hard proof then there would be no debate.


back in the time of Jesus the same kind of persecution happened, many called him and his followers crazy, and of course killed and tortured many of them. the difference between Jesus and any other person would be a. Jesus lived w/ out sin b. his teachings weren't weird(like child molestation, slave labor, holding people against their will, etc) and didn't require you to kill yourself. and c. Jesus' coming was foretold these other freaks were not.

I definitly see what your saying about the ornate crap that some people take religion too, especially catholicisim. they're basically putting people up to the status of Jesus, like the stupid Pope. Them and others have corrupted the basic teachings of Jesus and the Bible and they'll be judged, much more harshly than just a person who decided religion isnt for them I might add.

[TriumphRoadster6]

I think it's absolutely CRUCIAL for people to understand that we do NOT, NOT get into heaven by doing good deads or obeying the 10 Commandments. We don't get to heaven by believing there is a God either. Doesn't even Satan believe in God? Rather, we get into heaven by believing that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and that he died on the Cross and rose again in payment for our sins. God cannon look at anything sinful or unclean, thus, without Christ's sacrafice NO ONE would get into heaven. He was the perfect sacrafice, who never sinned, and God accepts the price he paid as our "ticket" into heaven. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly states that getting into heaven is NOT based on good works (doing good things), but rather praying to God and asking him to forgive you for your sins:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The Law (The 10 Commandments and all the other laws on Deuteronomy) were given to Moses to show that we CAN'T live the perfect life required to get into heaven. That's why they made sacrafices. Rather now, we live under Grace. The grace of Christ who died and rose again for us to be able to have a relationship with God and get into heaven. All that's necessary to become a Christian is to ask God forgiveness for your sins, admit that Christ died and rose again for you, and make Him Lord of you life. What God wants for you is so much greater and more honorable than any pleasure sex, drugs, alchohol, or anything else could bring, and I know this from experience.

Another commonly misinterrpreted thing about the Bible is that Christianity is a religion. It's NOT. Jesus hated religion, and so do I. Religion is defined as a set of rules that must be followed to gain acceptance. Christianity is actually a relationship between you and God, one where you can speak through prayer to him, and he answer prayers.

Some may argue that there isn't a God, but there is scientific evidence for it, but seeing as to how that would make a long post even longer, I'll save it for another time.

Questions/Comments: webbsledge@msn.com

[AzCivic]

I'll piggyback on this awesome post by adding, Christianity is the only "religion" that, as noted above, doesn't require works to get to heaven. all others make you earn your way.

[GT40FIED]

Scientific evidence...proving there's a god. Man...that's so antithetical I scarcely know where to begin, other than by saying I'd sure love to see that "evidence". If you could prove the existence of god then it becomes a fact, not a belief. It's not called "faith" for nothing. It's believing in the face of not knowing. I don't know if there's a god or not...I'm a die-hard agnostic. I think anyone who claims to know for sure is just a foolish sycophant. You can't possibly know what's out there and the fact that anyone would claim to have scientific evidence of god's existence is either trying to sell you something or lying to you and themselves. If you want to believe in god, that's cool. I'm undecided but I'll respect the ideas of others so long as it's within reason. But religion/belief in a god is faith, not fact.

[Wren57]

True faith is believing your beliefs are truths. You can't say "I believe in God but I'm not positive he exists" and claim to have faith at the same time...

[AzCivic]

not to mention he said evidence. there's evidence for evolution, but its still called a theory, as in not accepted as fact. and yes there's plenty of evidence.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Ok, I should have worded my statement differently: I can prove conclusively that human beings did not evolve, and if they didn't evolve, then that requires that there is a God.

[AzCivic]

evolution of apes to humans :rolleyes:

if you can believe that, you shouldnt have any trouble believing in miracles, cause it'd take one for that to happen.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
Ok, I should have worded my statement differently: I can prove conclusively that human beings did not evolve, and if they didn't evolve, then that requires that there is a God.

Actually, again, you can't. If it were a scientific certainty, it would move from "theory" to "fact". Why is this premise so hard to grasp? You cannot prove creationism any more than you can prove evolution. I know you think you can prove it, but that's only because you want it to be true so bad that you'll interject it as fact to prove a point. How come there's no one out there bridging the gap? Why isn't anyone saying that "god" created life and that life evolved over time. I tend to lend a bit more creedance to evolution because there are fossils and bones that seem to show a steady change in humanoid beings. Apes to man...I don't know about that. But a human-like early man to modern day human...I don't see how would could NOT expect change over that kind of time.

[AzCivic]

if you're really interested in the evidence that supports a God and Christianity, here's a couple of sites that answer alot of questions people have. the first link is a little better than the second.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp

http://www.carm.org/evidence.htm

[GT40FIED]

Right...but that site makes the assumption that the bible is infallible...that all of these questions can be solved by reading it. The flaw there being that the bible was written by people thus making it open to debate as for the voracity of it's claims. In point-counterpoint style, read HERE (http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/bible/discrepancies/) or perhaps HERE (http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/bible/discrepancies/scientific-errors/) or maybe even HERE (http://www.rotten.com/library/religion/bible/discrepancies/nature-of-god/) . See? links are fun. They can prove whatever you want them to prove if you want to believe enough. Az...I'm not disagreeing with you and I'm certainly not claiming to have any of the answers. I'm simply trying to explain to you what I think is going on from the point of view I've grown up with (and please don't pretend like I'm ignorant to the subject matter...my father was a priest before he left to get married and held a masters in theology. I can hold my own on religious topics with people who see only one side of the coin).

[TriumphRoadster6]

Another book I highly recommend, GT40FIED, is called "In Six Days" by John F. Ashton, Ph. D. He went to 50 scientist, respected in their various fields, and asked them what they thought of evolution, and their evidence to disprove it is EXTREMELY conclusive. After reading that book, I think you'd have to agree that the chances of humans evolving are 0.

And to answer your question, there ARE people saying that God created life and life evolved over time. I don't believe it though, and this to is address in the forementioned book.

If you are indeed an agnostic, you're one of two types: the kind who want to find out more about the beginning of life or the kind who says I don't care, so be it. IMO, being the latter type is rather stupid, and shows you don't care much about yourself or your future. If you are interested, read "In Six Days." If you are fairly intelligent, which I would guess from your use of vocabulary, you'll expecially like it because these are very intelligent people speaking on complicated, scientific and mathematical subjects.

[GT40FIED]

Well...I'm not much of a reader these days. I do, however, have a job at a book store (although I sell music) so maybe I'll flip through it. However, one must refrain from using phrases of absolutes in regards to religion. Since all documents and beliefs of religion are created and held by man, there's no certainty. The main problem I would have with such a book is the same problem I have with watching Fox News. I'm guessing it was written to prove a point and included all of the fact necessary to prove said point. That doesn't invalidate the point...but it makes it highly suspect. If a guy can find 50 scientists who claim they can disprove evolution, I'm sure I'd have no problem finding another 50 to prove it. Answers are easy to find when you hear what you want to hear. I really don't see how the thought of evolution, even in a creationist framework, is so hard to accept for some people. Look no further than the technological advances over the last 100 years...likely more than the sum of our entire ancestry combined. People got smarter and had different ideas. Things changed to better aid the species...that's what evolution is all about.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Look no further than the technological advances over the last 100 years...likely more than the sum of our entire ancestry combined. People got smarter and had different ideas. Things changed to better aid the species...that's what evolution is all about.

But have the people themselves changed over the past 100 years? No, we're exactly the same. In fact, have people changed over the past 3000 years? No, we're exactly the same, except for being a little be taller on average, but that's what I would describe as micro-evolution. I do believe that species adapt to their environment or just change a little bit, such as height, but humans are still humans, and we work the same way. This scenario works for all animals as well. I have yet to hear of a single animal that has changed from one type to another.

[GT40FIED]

Well...to me, whether it's mental or physical, any changes that ensures our advancement as a species would be evolution...micro or macro. According to the good Mr. Webster, evolution would be:

4 a : the historical development of a biological group (as a race or species)

Whether it's becoming taller, living longer, or the changing of our mental abilities, I call it the same thing. Sure, humans are still humans at their core, but the ideas we have as humans don't necessarily have much to do with our core traits. On a primal level, we're really no different than any other animals. We eat, sleep, deficate, and procreate. Humans just like to kid themselves that there's a whole lot more to it. Is that likeness a coincidence? Maybe. Then again, maybe not.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Right...but that site makes the assumption that the bible is infallible...that all of these questions can be solved by reading it.

i don't think you actually read anything on that site, it doesnt use the bible to answer those questions, it answers them using hard scientific evidence and the relates that to the bible.

[GT40FIED]

Well...I didn't read the entire site, if that's what you mean. Maybe I just didn't read the right articles (which would be difficult since you didn't specify what I should be looking for). I did, however, pick up a few quotes like:

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

and

Ultimately, God’s Word convicts

That last one particularly gets me...since there is no "word of god" lacking the interpretation of a human. Call it whatever you want, but "god" does not have a typewriter or a pen. He didn't actually write any of the things attributed to him. Furthermore, I'm a bit confused as to why there's no "gospel according to Jesus" or "Book of Jesus". You'd think the main character in a story would want to give a first-hand view of things rather than leaving it to other people with the potential to screw it up.

[AzCivic]

my bad, i thought all the FAQ's explained things in the same way, maybe the one you saw did not.

well the belief is that everything in the bible was written by the hand of god through people, like you said, he doesnt have a typewriter so he used people as one.

also everything Jesus was teaching and wanted to get across was in the bible so why would he have to sit down and write it when others can, and did, do it?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
my bad, i thought all the FAQ's explained things in the same way, maybe the one you saw did not.

well the belief is that everything in the bible was written by the hand of god through people, like you said, he doesnt have a typewriter so he used people as one.

also everything Jesus was teaching and wanted to get across was in the bible so why would he have to sit down and write it when others can, and did, do it?

I didn't click the FAQs...I just started clicking on articles. Haha. As for the "Book of Jesus" thing, I understand what you're saying...but don't you think that Jesus, presumably having infinite prescience, would have figured that people would want to hear straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? It's one thing to hear "and Jesus said unto them..." but it'd be a whole different thing if it said "and [b]I[/i] said unto them and here's why...". See the difference?

[Wren57]

If Jesus were to write a book, he would be considered a self-deist, and that has obvious implications.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by highlander
If Jesus were to write a book, he would be considered a self-deist, and that has obvious implications.

Well sure...if you're not really the son of god.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
But have the people themselves changed over the past 100 years? No, we're exactly the same. In fact, have people changed over the past 3000 years? No, we're exactly the same, except for being a little be taller on average, but that's what I would describe as micro-evolution. I do believe that species adapt to their environment or just change a little bit, such as height, but humans are still humans, and we work the same way. This scenario works for all animals as well. I have yet to hear of a single animal that has changed from one type to another.

I know I haven't been active at all in this entire thread and in fact is the first time I've read it in a long time. but i just thought I would throw in my two cents just because I am a strong beleiver in evolution.
I see where you are coming from with not seeing much in the way of evolution in humans but not all evolution is something that is outwardly apparent

just a thing to put out there
sicklecell anemia - which by definition production of a blood hemoglobin which doesnt absord as much oxygen as normal hemoglobin. although it can be fatal, sickle cell in one mutation form carries a distinct advantage over normal blood as it doesn't allow Malaria to affect an individual
Sickle Cell Anemia (http://www.csu.edu.au/learning/ncgr/gpi/odyssey/hemo/evol.html)


everyday we as people may use antibacterial soaps and such. and it kills bacteria. well until the bacteria begins to evolve and create a defense or immunity to the "antibacterial" products
bacteria (http://jac.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/25)

Another fact i remember hearing and dug up. As you get into high altitudes oxygen will begin to lessen.because of the lack of oxygen humans might develop acute hypoxia. now those people who do live in those enviroments have developed a defense against this through evolution. this defense has given their blood the ability to carry more oxygen than a normal human who lives at sea level
National Geographic (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0224_040225_evolution.html)

just a few things to ponder. now because I beleive evolution doesn't mean that I dont beleive the bible. I can't prove either right or wrong and no one ever will be able to I'm sure. but to me evolution just makes a lot more sense

[CD5Passion]

in all honesty that is one of the most unbiased sights I've read but it still bothers me like Steve said. the evidence used for every argument are passages from the bible. and the bible was written from people who are not perfect and in fact could have been very biased

not to mention that through communication things always change. you tell one person something and by tthe time that one thing you said gets to about 20 people it has changed. truths get stretched and distorted.
until I see something for myself I will remain "neutral" . which leads me to another problem, why is it that if you are not with god you are against him. isn't that kinda...well threatening?
‘The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters’ (Matthew 12:30)

[FlooredAccord]

Speaking of heaven, you would also have to specify, because in religiuos heaven, there are three "layers" to heaven. 1=earth,2=outer space, 3=Heaven where God is and where you go when you die.

[AzCivic]

Gosei_Passion
those examples are very good, but they are very minor. when i think of evolution, I think of dinosaurs turning into birds or ape creatures turning into man or non-life turning into single cell life then turning into more complex life until one day there's humans. and to me that just doesnt fly.

also in regards to your question about the accuracy of the bible, in the second link you should find quite a bit of info to help you decide if its accurate or not.

about the if your not w/ god your against him thing, well think about it. if god is offering his help to bring you to his kingdom and keep you from going to hell, and you flat out refuse, well thats kind of a slap in the face only on a whole different level.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
I didn't click the FAQs...I just started clicking on articles. Haha. As for the "Book of Jesus" thing, I understand what you're saying...but don't you think that Jesus, presumably having infinite prescience, would have figured that people would want to hear straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak? It's one thing to hear "and Jesus said unto them..." but it'd be a whole different thing if it said "and [b]I[/i] said unto them and here's why...". See the difference?

wouldnt even make a bit of difference? if you wont believe it from first hand accounts, why would you believe him? I mean, someone can say they rose from the dead, but no one would believe it unless others witnessed it anyway.

[GT40FIED]

As I remember, no one actually witnessed him rise from the dead. They just came by later and found him gone. Then again...I'm getting a bit rusty in my old age.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
Gosei_Passion
those examples are very good, but they are very minor. when i think of evolution, I think of dinosaurs turning into birds or ape creatures turning into man or non-life turning into single cell life then turning into more complex life until one day there's humans. and to me that just doesnt fly.

also in regards to your question about the accuracy of the bible, in the second link you should find quite a bit of info to help you decide if its accurate or not.

about the if your not w/ god your against him thing, well think about it. if god is offering his help to bring you to his kingdom and keep you from going to hell, and you flat out refuse, well thats kind of a slap in the face only on a whole different level.

but are we not in fact made up of millions upon millions of single celled organisms? organisms that have bound together and communicate with one another.

and with the being with god thing. I dont see it as "flat out refusing". I'm a human being, and I'm very curious. there are too many possibilities past the faith that make sense to me. he made me, i think he should be understanding.
and again that's just how i feel.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
he made me, i think he should be understanding.

That's one thing that always got me. If god did indeed make us, why leave all of this stuff around to give some of us reason to doubt? If it's a test, fuck that. If he REALLY wanted us by his side in an afterlife, don't you think he would've created our minds in such a way that we'd refuse any "false temptations"? Remember...some people don't have absolute faith. Questions will, and I think need to be, asked.

[AzCivic]

GT40, yeah no one was sitting there right when he got up, but after he rose he went and talked to people.

yes questions should be asked and I think alot of them are answered in those 2 links. also like i said earlier, what other religion doesn't make you earn your way into heaven? i mean think about it, what trivial crap can a human being do to somehow earn a his way to"paradise" next to god (or who/whatever else)for an eternity? would giving all your money to the poor somehow earn your way? i mean considering that you would have lived poorly for what would actually be a blink of an eye in the grand scheme of things, i doubt it. that was just an example, but you get the idea.

i guess you guys feel almost resentful, like if god loves me so much why is it so hard to actually know what to do. i can understand that, all I can say is look at all the evidence that is given in those links, think about it and to try to figure out what you feel is right, and go from there. obviously I myself can't prove to you what is the right way, not much in life can be taken for fact anyway, most is just what you believe. i believe the earth is round because i've seen evidence for it which includes pictures, i myself have never went out in a space ship and looked.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
but are we not in fact made up of millions upon millions of single celled organisms? organisms that have bound together and communicate with one another.


if this were true, then all our millions upon millions of single celled organisms would have had to come together at the same time and not over millions of years. for example, we cannot live without say a liver or a brain or (whatever else there is thats vital to survival even on the most basic level)

this kind of example goes down to the cellular level as well, there are certain things that are vital for one cell to live that all have to be there at the same time.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
GT40, yeah no one was sitting there right when he got up, but after he rose he went and talked to people.

yes questions should be asked and I think alot of them are answered in those 2 links.

but those links honestly don't hold much ground due to the fact that they are written by humans. now if god were to have written those links then hell I'm game. but in essence those links are nothing more than how an individual interprets everything, their opinions...not facts
(btw this thread rocks just cause it's giving me insight to religious ideals)

[AzCivic]

well you could say god is working through them to get that info to everyone. do you honestly think god is going to start up a website??? also that info is about as factual as anything else you might learn, basically its based on observations of the world around us.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
That's one thing that always got me. If god did indeed make us, why leave all of this stuff around to give some of us reason to doubt? If it's a test, fuck that. If he REALLY wanted us by his side in an afterlife, don't you think he would've created our minds in such a way that we'd refuse any "false temptations"? Remember...some people don't have absolute faith. Questions will, and I think need to be, asked.

You should know that God DIDN'T intend it to be the way it is now. In the beginning, as it states in Genesis, the world was perfect, as it will be in heaven, without sin, sickness, or any of the other evils that are so prevalent in this world. Because God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, and they did it anyway, he sent a curse onto mankind as punishment for disobeying him. Now, you might be asking why he put those trees there in the first place. Good point. The reason is, though, that God doesn't want robots who follow Him. Which is more gratifying, someone who bakes you a birthday cake because you tell them to, or because they do it out of love and kindness? God had and has the power to make a people who know nothing other than obeying and worshipping Him, but that's certainly not what he wants.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
As I remember, no one actually witnessed him rise from the dead. They just came by later and found him gone. Then again...I'm getting a bit rusty in my old age.

No, however many people did see his dead body be wrapped tightly in cloths and then placed in an empty tomb. There was no disputing his death. The Romans didn't take anyone down from the cross until they were dead. Later, however, well over 400 people who knew him previously and knew of his death DID see him alive again, and Thomas saw the wounds in his hands and feet.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Well sure...if you're not really the son of god.

How would that change your perspective? Just because he said it doesn't make it different. You would still have all the same arguements, since you weren't around during that time. It also wouldn't prove anymore that he was the son of God than it does now (for the record I'll add that I DO believe it proves he was the son of God).

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
You should know that God DIDN'T intend it to be the way it is now. In the beginning, as it states in Genesis, the world was perfect, as it will be in heaven, without sin, sickness, or any of the other evils that are so prevalent in this world. Because God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit, and they did it anyway, he sent a curse onto mankind as punishment for disobeying him. Now, you might be asking why he put those trees there in the first place. Good point. The reason is, though, that God doesn't want robots who follow Him. Which is more gratifying, someone who bakes you a birthday cake because you tell them to, or because they do it out of love and kindness? God had and has the power to make a people who know nothing other than obeying and worshipping Him, but that's certainly not what he wants.

I see the story of the serpent and the apple as more of a parable about human nature. To me, it exemplifies wanting what you can't have an the consequences that follow in doing what you know you shouldn't. That said...why would it have been so difficult for a god to make his presence known and undeniable? I mean...just because you know he's real doesn't mean you'd have to worship him. I know cantalopes are real...but I don't worship cantalopes (although they are quite tasty). It's funny, you mention that god has the ability to make people who know nothing but worship and obedience yet he doesn't...but somehow those people still exist anyway. Strange paradox, one might say.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
How would that change your perspective? Just because he said it doesn't make it different. You would still have all the same arguements, since you weren't around during that time. It also wouldn't prove anymore that he was the son of God than it does now (for the record I'll add that I DO believe it proves he was the son of God).

But you're forgetting he's the key factor in Christianity. Without Jesus, there really isn't much to talk about. He's the metaphorical link between man and god. Without that link, god becomes intangiable to most. I think it would be important to hear what he had to say. If I knew I was the son of god, I wouldn't go around dictating my thoughts to people. I'd write my own book, assuming that people might want to know how my brain worked. I'm not saying he should write about what he did and where he went...but more how he thought /his thoughts on his own teachings.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
I know I haven't been active at all in this entire thread and in fact is the first time I've read it in a long time. but i just thought I would throw in my two cents just because I am a strong beleiver in evolution.
I see where you are coming from with not seeing much in the way of evolution in humans but not all evolution is something that is outwardly apparent

just a thing to put out there
sicklecell anemia - which by definition production of a blood hemoglobin which doesnt absord as much oxygen as normal hemoglobin. although it can be fatal, sickle cell in one mutation form carries a distinct advantage over normal blood as it doesn't allow Malaria to affect an individual
Sickle Cell Anemia (http://www.csu.edu.au/learning/ncgr/gpi/odyssey/hemo/evol.html)


everyday we as people may use antibacterial soaps and such. and it kills bacteria. well until the bacteria begins to evolve and create a defense or immunity to the "antibacterial" products
bacteria (http://jac.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/49/1/25)

Another fact i remember hearing and dug up. As you get into high altitudes oxygen will begin to lessen.because of the lack of oxygen humans might develop acute hypoxia. now those people who do live in those enviroments have developed a defense against this through evolution. this defense has given their blood the ability to carry more oxygen than a normal human who lives at sea level
National Geographic (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/02/0224_040225_evolution.html)

just a few things to ponder. now because I beleive evolution doesn't mean that I dont beleive the bible. I can't prove either right or wrong and no one ever will be able to I'm sure. but to me evolution just makes a lot more sense

It's important that you understand the difference between adaptation and evolution, because they are not the same. Evolution is a major change, always physical and observable, such as body parts changing and "morphing" into something else over a period of time. Adaptation, on the other hand, is a change within your existing self. Your body is adapting constantly to everything going on around you: light, smell, touch, hearing, and taste, as well as other changes like your oxygen example. Anybody who spends enough time at high altitudes will adapt to it. Think about it: when you go into someone else's house it usually has a different smell, doesn't it? After 15 minutes, do you still notice it or smell it? No. Concerning the soap example; that's the same deal. Just like a vaccine in humans, the bacteria begins to recognize what's killing it and either avoid it or find some other way to keep itself from dying. Is it still bacteria? Yes. It's simply adapting to its environment.

[TriumphRoadster6]

[I'm a human being, and I'm very curious. there are too many possibilities past the faith that make sense to me. he made me, i think he should be understanding.
and again that's just how i feel.

If you went to a stranger's house, without him knowing you at all, would you expect him to let you in? I sure wouldn't, and wouldn't let a stranger into my house. It's the same way with God, and heaven is his house. If you don't have a relationship with him through Christ, why would he let you into heaven? However, a stranger would meet you at the door and let you in if you had a good reason. And that's what God does when we come to Him through prayer and ask for forgiveness through his Son and place our faith in him.

Like I said a few posts back, it wasn't supposed to be this way, but as a result of Adam's sin, we all have sin and have to struggle with things throughout life.

[pdiggitydogg]

I just dont understand why we continue to have these kinds of posts. No one is changing any one elses minds...which is why I have stopped giving my opinion on the subject.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Have you ever thought that evolution defies 2 well accepted and proven scientific theories?

First, it defies the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. That pretty much kills the big bang theory. This law has NEVER been proven false, all throughout history, and never will be. Energy can be converted from one form to another (heat, light, chemical, etc) but never created or destryed. Now you're saying, "OK, so there was energy already there and it converted into some type of explosion that created everything." If that's true, where did it come from? And if you can answer that, where did that come from? You respond, "OK, fine then, where did God come from if you're so smart?!" Well, I can't answer that and neither can anyone else, but the fact remains that I have a basis for my faith, whereas you put your faith in something that you know nothing about, or if it even exists.

The second law it defies is the Law of Entropy, which states that all things degrade and fall into a state of disorganization over time. Again, this is contrary to everything evolution teaches. (Again, don't get this confused with adaptation, it's not the same). People don't get more healthy as they get old, and ALL things wear out over time. Your Granddad and my Triumph are good examples of this.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
[B]Right...but that site makes the assumption that the bible is infallible...that all of these questions can be solved by reading it.

I can understand you saying that, and you're definitly not the first. But if the Bible IS falliable, why should do anything good at all? Why not go out and kill 10 people right now? What tells me I can't do it? The Government, you might answer. OK fine, where does the government get it's basis for right and wrong? It's simple, when you get down to it, all morals, ideals, and ideas of good and evil go back to the Bible. Without it, there is no all-powerful authority to say you should do this or you can't do this. It would be silly to argue that humans inherintely are good. Take a look around, and in the broad scheme of things, truely kind and selfless deeds are nearly nonexistant. Almost everything is done with a thought of self gain or self preservation, and I'm just as guilty of it as anyone else, so don't think I'm sitting on a high horse pointing at everyone else. If you care to admit it to yourself, you're notice the same thing about your own actions.

Which brings me to another important point: being a Christian doesn't mean being perfect or even good. It simply means being forgiven. All followers of Christ face the same problems, sins, and temptations as anyone else, it's just that we have someone to lean on when we're weak, forgive us when we sin, and a Book of inerrant truths on which to base our lives and everything else.

[pdiggitydogg]

(actually...the conservation law remains true on the big bang theory, despite the current ideas of string theory and quantum physics that the laws of physics bend or even do not apply at the subatomic level.)
(The law of entropy also applies to evolution...no one is saying that the human species or all creatures in general are not falling down the spiral. They just happen to thrive in the current situation....ie mutations that are successful.)

Screw it...I wanna say this:
We are not special beings. To say we are the made in the image of god, is to say that a flawless all powerful, perfect being has back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and is prone to carpal tunnel syndrome

Damn...I did what I said I wouldnt do. Now, I promise promise...no more from me.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
(actually...the conservation law remains true on the big bang theory, despite the current ideas of string theory and quantum physics that the laws of physics bend or even do not apply at the subatomic level.)
(The law of entropy also applies to evolution...no one is saying that the human species or all creatures in general are not falling down the spiral. They just happen to thrive in the current situation....ie mutations that are successful.)

Screw it...I wanna say this:
We are not special beings. To say we are the made in the image of god, is to say that a flawless all powerful, perfect being has back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and is prone to carpal tunnel syndrome

Damn...I did what I said I wouldnt do. Now, I promise promise...no more from me.

You just said that those 2 laws don't apply to this situation without giving so much as a shred of evidence. I'm gonna have to say that regarding those two things, you don't know what you're talking about. (I'm not saying that rudely, though it probably comes across that way.)

Also, you must never have read Genesis or have read my previous post. In the beginning, when humans were created, we WERE made in the image of God, and DID NOT have any back problems, painful wisdom teeth, and we were not prone to carpal tunnel syndrom. All this and more came about as the sin and disobedience of Adam. God cursed mankind for that blunder. That is why he sent his son Jesus Christ to be the perfect sacrafice for us, because with all this sin we could not be accepted into heaven by him. He accepts Christ's perfect life as payment all the bad we've done in our lives.

[pdiggitydogg]

I cant give the reasons becuase I am not a quantum physicist...I do not grasp the subject manner enough to even attempt an explanation. I just know that on the quantum scale, physics do not apply. Yet, at the size of thematter large enough to be called such, physics does apply and therefore all matter, condensed into such a minute space, creates massive amounts of energy. Where the matter comes from, originally, comes into play from string theory, and that the dimensions are simply globs of energy waving about. Collisions may have caused OUR big bang...where as others, create alternate universes between the dimensions.
All of course, is theory based on mathmatics.

There, Im staying out of it. No anti-religious comments...though I wouldnt mind saying more.... Don't get me wrong, Im not some anti-religious atheist....well atheist maybe, but not anti-religious. I understand that it is important to many, MANY people and I totally respect that and those people...many on this site included. It is a faith thing - Ive got mine, you've got yours. I think it is folly to try to disprove something as fundamental as that.

And oh, I have read genisis.

[TriumphRoadster6]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
[There, Im staying out of it. No anti-religious comments...though I wouldnt mind saying more.... Don't get me wrong, Im not some anti-religious atheist....well atheist maybe, but not anti-religious. I understand that it is important to many, MANY people and I totally respect that and those people...many on this site included. [/B]

Thanks for that. I wish there were more people who would be respectful like you. So far the people debating this on this forum have been very respectful which is rare and good. I'll continue to try and provide evidence for a Creator, but I try to do it in a polite manner which doens't offend people. As Patrick Henry said, "I don't agree with a thing you say, but I'll die defending your right to say it."

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
I can understand you saying that, and you're definitly not the first. But if the Bible IS falliable, why should do anything good at all? Why not go out and kill 10 people right now? What tells me I can't do it?

Well that's incredibly over-simplified. I have a conscious and I know right from wrong. These ideals have nothing to do with religion. No one with a shred of intelligence would state that humans are inantely good, but we do create social norms and mores that most people will follow regardless of their religious affiliation. And I'm pretty sure the concept of good and evil predates the bible. Good and evil and right and wrong have nothing to do with religion...it's all perception. That's why one thing can be wrong to me and right to you. Since there's a subjective nature of good and evil, I think it's safe to say that the bible didn't lay down the cornerstone for such ideas.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
If you went to a stranger's house, without him knowing you at all, would you expect him to let you in? I sure wouldn't, and wouldn't let a stranger into my house. It's the same way with God, and heaven is his house. If you don't have a relationship with him through Christ, why would he let you into heaven? However, a stranger would meet you at the door and let you in if you had a good reason. And that's what God does when we come to Him through prayer and ask for forgiveness through his Son and place our faith in him.

Like I said a few posts back, it wasn't supposed to be this way, but as a result of Adam's sin, we all have sin and have to struggle with things throughout life.

Well...again...over-simplification. If god did indeed create us, then how could we possibly be "strangers in his house"? One could even make the argument that god has an obligation to let us in since it's written that he loves us all. And if those writings are so accurate, one would be remise not to believe them. So either god's love is unconditional or he demands pennance (or attrition) and total control. It can't be both ways since philosophically the ideas cancel each other out. Also, why does my relationship with god have to lead through Jesus? I know...many christians have this insanely weird and almost incest-like idea that Jesus is god thus making him his own dad, but what about other religions? Surely there are jews and buddhists and muslims that pray to their god and worship him whole-heartedly but bypass the Jesus middle-man. Are they doomed? Doubtful...since many of them lead more good and pure lives than many christians.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by TriumphRoadster6
Have you ever thought that evolution defies 2 well accepted and proven scientific theories?

First, it defies the Law of Conservation of Energy, which states that energy can be neither created nor destroyed. That pretty much kills the big bang theory. This law has NEVER been proven false, all throughout history, and never will be. Energy can be converted from one form to another (heat, light, chemical, etc) but never created or destryed. Now you're saying, "OK, so there was energy already there and it converted into some type of explosion that created everything." If that's true, where did it come from? And if you can answer that, where did that come from? You respond, "OK, fine then, where did God come from if you're so smart?!" Well, I can't answer that and neither can anyone else, but the fact remains that I have a basis for my faith, whereas you put your faith in something that you know nothing about, or if it even exists.

Well...ok...so if Law of Conservation of Energy cancels out the big bang, then certainly cancels out god as well. Many people will respond to you "well god has just always been". Riiiiight. If matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, and I think it's safe to assume god would have tp be one or the other, then god can't just appear, either. Something can't come from nothing. It's impossible. There are so many theories as to what precipitated the big bang, I scarcely know where to begin. There is, however, only one statement of god's origins. First there was nothing, and then he was there. Like *poof*, I'm god! Either he's a Hoodini or something doesn't fit there. But then again that's neither here nor there. Science and religion go together about as well as oil and water. My point is that you can't chide one person for not having proof while offering none yourself.

[CD5Passion]

we've had several not so respectful debates in the past lol, i think Wren and Steve can booth attest for that.

i stayed out of most of the argument just because I find it useless to try and peach to eachother about thinks we obviously won't change our minds on. faith is faith..i grew up roman catholic, but have strong faith in darwinism or something to that effect haha.

[GT40FIED]

I feel the need to psuedo-revive this because an idea has just come to me. Many of you will refer to evolution as the idea that humans evolved from apes. A cunning theory made by equally cunning theorists, but wrong. Even Darwin's evolutionary theory follows the same basic principal...survival of the fittest. Now...this may not seem important to your day to day moron who can screw anything that moves, but humans aren't the only things inhabiting this planet.

I would particularly like to know your thoughts on bacteria. Particularly, antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria brought about by mankind's retardation due to the fact that we stop taking drugs when we feel better and not when the infection is gone. What does this do? That's right...the bacteria left become more resilient and immune to the same antibiotic. Much like the next time you set off a bug bomb in your apartment, there will be a roach or two left here and there. They will breed and their offspring will most likely be resistant to the poison you tried to use. Likewise, bacteria will evolve to fight off drugs (I think they do this solely to spite creationsits). In regards to the theory of degradation, this is degrading mankind's ability to fight of diseases naturally. Over the last 3 or 4 generations, we've become so dependant on drugs to fight off things like the flu and even things like HIV/AIDS, we've degraded our own immune systems. We no longer have the same potential to fight off regular everyday germs that we used to and what's worse is that these same germs are the very ones that have become immune to our bullshittery. Call it "adaptation" if you want, but the writing's on the wall. Adaptation IS evolution. Whether it's by the grace of your god or not...it's still change in favor of a species...and that's evolution.

[AzCivic]

How is adaptation evolution? If I add alot of protein all of a sudden to my diet I get gas real bad, eventually my body adapts to the change and I'm fine, so did I just evolve? No, I'm still a human, just like that bacteria is the same bacteria only now more resistent to whatever popular drug thats used to fight it off. No amount of anti-bacterial this and that is gonna change that bacteria into say a snail.

[AzCivic]

and if god created the universe and the energy within it, then he probably doesnt have to conform to any rule of the universe, since well he wrote the rules.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
How is adaptation evolution? If I add alot of protein all of a sudden to my diet I get gas real bad, eventually my body adapts to the change and I'm fine, so did I just evolve? No, I'm still a human, just like that bacteria is the same bacteria only now more resistent to whatever popular drug thats used to fight it off. No amount of anti-bacterial this and that is gonna change that bacteria into say a snail.

No, that would not be evolution, simply because I seriously doubt that adaptation would be something passed on as a beneficial trait during breeding to forward the species. I'm not sure where the snail thing came from...but again, you're stuck on the idea that evolution has to change one thing into another. Any change in a species that is passed down from one generation to another to forward the species itself is still evolution.

As for god creating the universe thus not having to play by it's rules...ok...but there's a flaw there. If god created the universe, where did he come from before creating it? Since something can't come from nothing and god can't have always just been there, he's got to come from somewhere, too.

[CD5Passion]

AZ steve is right, everytime you have spoken against evolution you have been stuck on the idea that evolution isn't anything less than ape to man.

this was part of my argument a bit ago steve. the evolution of bacterial strains in order for it to continue to survive. sure the bacteria is generally the same bacteria BUT a certain strand of DNA or RNA has changed or been added that will allow it to be resistant to antibiotics. By the strain changing its form to adapt to it's enviroment it HAS evolved into a new strain.

[AzCivic]

i'm sorry, but from what I know the whole evolution thing goes hand in hand with the big bang. so if you all are saying that evolution is just minor changes due to adaptations, then whats the point? it doesnt conflict with the bible at all.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i'm sorry, but from what I know the whole evolution thing goes hand in hand with the big bang. so if you all are saying that evolution is just minor changes due to adaptations, then whats the point? it doesnt conflict with the bible at all.

See...that's the entire point. The two CAN go together. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. The only reason people lump evolution in with things like the big bang is because they're both rooted in science rather than religion (and people assume they both contradict religion). I don't really remember saying that evolution contradicted the bible...I do remember clearly stating the possibility of the merger of both ideas (what most people refer to as "creative evolution").

[AzCivic]

right they can go together, but inorder to do so you'd have to agree that humans are infact special and did not evolve into what they are today. right?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
right they can go together, but inorder to do so you'd have to agree that humans are infact special and did not evolve into what they are today. right?

Not really. Since I can't prove anything one way or the other, I have no idea. These are just ideas. With all of the rampant, unadulterated stupidity I see these days, I find it hard to believe that humans are special. I mean...every time a guy ejaculates he releases roughly 250 million sperm. The fact that one of those hits an egg is far from remarkable. Yet for some reason, people still tell their kids they're special. Humans as a whole work roughly the same way. We WANT to believe we're special. We NEED to believe we're special therefore it's simple to concoct a scenario which makes us...go on, guess...special. The idea that we're made in (a) god's image is not only narcissistic but somewhat preposterous. Such an act would imply that we are modeled after a perfect being making us all the more special. Furthermore, does that mean god has a heart, appendix, colon, or pelvic splanchnic ganglian? Which reminds me...if you want proof that we've changed, look at your appendix. Rabbits and certain other animals use their appendiz to digest rough folliage. Nowhere in biblical history does it detail humans eating things like grass that would be undigestable by their stomachs. So, logically, that would mean that somewhere along the way mankind lived off a very different diet...most likely a long, long time ago.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
right they can go together, but inorder to do so you'd have to agree that humans are infact special and did not evolve into what they are today. right?

yeah you're right...humans are the only creatures on earth that fight against nature and thei enviroment..the only species of life that is surely destroying the only world they live on. if you mean we are special because we are fucking ourselves over hardcore than yes you are 100% accurate


mankind is a plaque on this world haha..i just tell it as i see it

[AzCivic]

you love that Matrix movie don't you?

we're also the only ones smart enough to figure out we're screwing something up and do something to stop it, if left up to their own, any predator would completely annihilate whatever it is that it eats. lucky for it, nature won't let it.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Not really. Since I can't prove anything one way or the other, I have no idea. These are just ideas. With all of the rampant, unadulterated stupidity I see these days, I find it hard to believe that humans are special. I mean...every time a guy ejaculates he releases roughly 250 million sperm. The fact that one of those hits an egg is far from remarkable. Yet for some reason, people still tell their kids they're special. Humans as a whole work roughly the same way. We WANT to believe we're special. We NEED to believe we're special therefore it's simple to concoct a scenario which makes us...go on, guess...special. The idea that we're made in (a) god's image is not only narcissistic but somewhat preposterous. Such an act would imply that we are modeled after a perfect being making us all the more special. Furthermore, does that mean god has a heart, appendix, colon, or pelvic splanchnic ganglian? Which reminds me...if you want proof that we've changed, look at your appendix. Rabbits and certain other animals use their appendiz to digest rough folliage. Nowhere in biblical history does it detail humans eating things like grass that would be undigestable by their stomachs. So, logically, that would mean that somewhere along the way mankind lived off a very different diet...most likely a long, long time ago.

still, we're the only ones who contemplate the notion of a higher being, that I think would make us special.

by god's image, i don't know if that was supposed to mean physical, mental, moral or what. since at first adam/eve lived w/out sin they were in a sense perfect like god.

also during the times of adam and eve, i'm sure they're diet was almost exclusivly vegetarian, like a rabbit, since there was no death or killing. so yeah, it may have had a function at one time, and as food became more and more processed and our diet included more and more meat, the need for an appendix decreased. then again there's studies that say its a vital part of the immune system in our younger years, so who knows.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
you love that Matrix movie don't you?

we're also the only ones smart enough to figure out we're screwing something up and do something to stop it, if left up to their own, any predator would completely annihilate whatever it is that it eats. lucky for it, nature won't let it.

what makes you think that I "love" the Matrix, or is that just you trying to make a personal attack?...me and steve just had a talk about this movie not long ago and how it's not that good of a movie and I quote steve not to mention Keana is a bad actor.

so that would explain why we still are polluting the fuck out of our home? and continue to expand our growth with little regard to other living creatures of this earth?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
still, we're the only ones who contemplate the notion of a higher being, that I think would make us special.

by god's image, i don't know if that was supposed to mean physical, mental, moral or what. since at first adam/eve lived w/out sin they were in a sense perfect like god.

also during the times of adam and eve, i'm sure they're diet was almost exclusivly vegetarian, like a rabbit, since there was no death or killing. so yeah, it may have had a function at one time, and as food became more and more processed and our diet included more and more meat, the need for an appendix decreased. then again there's studies that say its a vital part of the immune system in our younger years, so who knows.

Contemplation is like a rocking chair...it gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. So what if we contemplate things? It doesn't make them true. I can contemplate that god is really a metaphor for aliens who came here in space ships and created us. Does that make it true? No...but there's about as much evidence to support it as any other creation/evolution theories.

Personally, I would prefer not to be made in god's image. If you read the bible, it makes it seem like god loves us infinitely, but if you fuck up once and don't repent it's your ass in the afterlife. It's like he's a prankster. According to the bible, he gives man free will and instincts...then sets the rules in opposition. Be fruitful and multiply...but no sex before marriage or with birth control. He puts things in front of you that you are inately programmed to want, but expects you not to partake. To quote "The Devil's Advocate", "Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste...don't swallow. And while you're jumping from one foot to the next, he's laughin' his sick fuckin' ass off". Ok..maybe not that last part (it's part of the quote, but debateable), but that's basically the way I feel religion works. Deny ALMOST EVERY instinct you have and you'll be accepted. It's bullshit.

As for Adam & Eve's diet...I remember them eating fruits and vegetables...but I must have missed out on the part where they ate grass and leaves and other rough folliage. That could just be me, though.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
we're also the only ones smart enough to figure out we're screwing something up and do something to stop it, if left up to their own, any predator would completely annihilate whatever it is that it eats. lucky for it, nature won't let it.

What? Huh? Did I miss that part in "how to act like a human" class? When have we ever stopped doing something we knew was stupid? We fight wars, pollute the air, destroy ecosystems, and rape our environment. We know it's stupid...but we do it anyway. I'm also not sure about predators killing off their food source. I don't know of any in modern history that's gone extinct without a little push from mankind. Ever wondered why there's a limit to how many deer you can kill in a season. Here's a hint...it's not because wolves are such good predators.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Gosei_Passion
what makes you think that I "love" the Matrix, or is that just you trying to make a personal attack?...me and steve just had a talk about this movie not long ago and how it's not that good of a movie and I quote steve not to mention Keana is a bad actor.

so that would explain why we still are polluting the fuck out of our home? and continue to expand our growth with little regard to other living creatures of this earth?

What? Huh? Did I miss that part in "how to act like a human" class? When have we ever stopped doing something we knew was stupid? We fight wars, pollute the air, destroy ecosystems, and rape our environment. We know it's stupid...but we do it anyway. I'm also not sure about predators killing off their food source. I don't know of any in modern history that's gone extinct without a little push from mankind. Ever wondered why there's a limit to how many deer you can kill in a season. Here's a hint...it's not because wolves are such good predators.


thats nice, but I know this isnt the first time you basically quoted the whole "we're a plague on the planet, blah, blah, blah" whats funny though, is you say it as if no ones ever heard of it. either way, who cares.

i guess nothing is being done to stop our mistakes? the mistakes that were first made because we had no clue they were doing something bad. i guess there's no recycling, no large groups who's only goal is to stop a ship from killing a whale or cutting down some forest, or overusing anti-biotics, or trying to make pollution free energy, or whatever else you'd like to say is ruining the earth?

you basically proved my point w/ the limit on hunting, we put limits on killing dear because we could kill them all if we wanted, yet we don't. we learned by the previous mistakes of those killing off other animals that we need to stop. if a large population of wolves or whatever moved in, would it not try to kill everything w/ out a second thought? so we have the ability to learn from mistakes and do something about the future of this planet, yet no other creature on this earth could care, seems special to me.

[AzCivic]

Contemplation is like a rocking chair...it gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. So what if we contemplate things? It doesn't make them true. I can contemplate that god is really a metaphor for aliens who came here in space ships and created us. Does that make it true? No...but there's about as much evidence to support it as any other creation/evolution theories.

it still points to a higher level of intelligence, one that actually wonders where we came from and where are we going, rather than just, i'm hungry, i'm tired, i gotta poop.

Personally, I would prefer not to be made in god's image. If you read the bible, it makes it seem like god loves us infinitely, but if you fuck up once and don't repent it's your ass in the afterlife. It's like he's a prankster. According to the bible, he gives man free will and instincts...then sets the rules in opposition. Be fruitful and multiply...but no sex before marriage or with birth control. He puts things in front of you that you are inately programmed to want, but expects you not to partake. To quote "The Devil's Advocate", "Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste...don't swallow. And while you're jumping from one foot to the next, he's laughin' his sick fuckin' ass off". Ok..maybe not that last part (it's part of the quote, but debateable), but that's basically the way I feel religion works. Deny ALMOST EVERY instinct you have and you'll be accepted. It's bullshit.

so you think if you're a true believer and have complete faith and you happen to steal something during a long stretch of bad times then your instantly doomed to hell until you repent? thats not how it works. but if you were to steal something and you were a true believer something inside of you would make you feel bad for what you did, and make you want to repent anyway.

yes there's rules(birth control NOT being one of them) but isnt it funny how those rules, if followed, keep you out of alot of trouble? "no sex before marriage" keeps you from getting someone who you really don't care about pregnant, also could keep you from getting some funky disease. again its not as if you happen to have sex before marriage, that your doomed to an eternity in hell. god is not out to get you.

and adam/eve's complete diet and cookbook was not in the bible so really what the point in discussing it?

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i guess nothing is being done to stop our mistakes? the mistakes that were first made because we had no clue they were doing something bad. i guess there's no recycling, no large groups who's only goal is to stop a ship from killing a whale or cutting down some forest, or overusing anti-biotics, or trying to make pollution free energy, or whatever else you'd like to say is ruining the earth?

you basically proved my point w/ the limit on hunting, we put limits on killing dear because we could kill them all if we wanted, yet we don't. we learned by the previous mistakes of those killing off other animals that we need to stop. if a large population of wolves or whatever moved in, would it not try to kill everything w/ out a second thought? so we have the ability to learn from mistakes and do something about the future of this planet, yet no other creature on this earth could care, seems special to me.

Of course there are groups trying to fix things. They make up...what...about .01% of the population? As of this moment in time, recycling programs in many major cities are jokes, hardly anyone needs whale parts for anything, people's stupidity and paranoia is the only thing causing overuse of medication, and there is no way of making pollution free energy. Paying these problems lip service is all fine and good, but it doesn't make them better. Wait...I'll be right right back...I have to go drill for oil in wildlife refuges to make the world a better place by selling that oil to China.

Ok...now that I'm back...I don't think the point that we place restrictions on killing proves anything except that a few of us had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. That, and we figured out that if we killed them off we couldn't have fun killing them anymore. Show me another species that kills for fun or "sport" and I'll give you a cookie. You make it sound like predators move in and just fuck up everyone's christmas. That's not how it works. Almost all predators will simply kill what they need to survive. I'll let you know the next time I see a wolf with a deer's head over it's mantle, though.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
it still points to a higher level of intelligence, one that actually wonders where we came from and where are we going, rather than just, i'm hungry, i'm tired, i gotta poop.

How...graphic. And yet...so inconsequential.


so you think if you're a true believer and have complete faith and you happen to steal something during a long stretch of bad times then your instantly doomed to hell until you repent? thats not how it works. but if you were to steal something and you were a true believer something inside of you would make you feel bad for what you did, and make you want to repent anyway.

yes there's rules(birth control NOT being one of them) but isnt it funny how those rules, if followed, keep you out of alot of trouble? "no sex before marriage" keeps you from getting someone who you really don't care about pregnant, also could keep you from getting some funky disease. again its not as if you happen to have sex before marriage, that your doomed to an eternity in hell. god is not out to get you.


I'm merely pointing out that some people's interpretations of "the word" are wrong. No, I don't think that someone will go to hell for stealing...true believer or otherwise. And I suppose the birth control thing was a bad example since that's really only within the catholic church. I've followed my instincts for the better part of my adult life and I've turned out just fun. I'd even dare say I've probably had a lot more fun than people had all of their religious baggae with them making it impossible to do what they really wanted to do. God may not be out to get me...but he sure enjoys fuckin' with the rules.

[CD5Passion]

Originally posted by AzCivic
thats nice, but I know this isnt the first time you basically quoted the whole "we're a plague on the planet, blah, blah, blah" whats funny though, is you say it as if no ones ever heard of it. either way, who cares.

i guess nothing is being done to stop our mistakes? the mistakes that were first made because we had no clue they were doing something bad. i guess there's no recycling, no large groups who's only goal is to stop a ship from killing a whale or cutting down some forest, or overusing anti-biotics, or trying to make pollution free energy, or whatever else you'd like to say is ruining the earth?

you basically proved my point w/ the limit on hunting, we put limits on killing dear because we could kill them all if we wanted, yet we don't. we learned by the previous mistakes of those killing off other animals that we need to stop. if a large population of wolves or whatever moved in, would it not try to kill everything w/ out a second thought? so we have the ability to learn from mistakes and do something about the future of this planet, yet no other creature on this earth could care, seems special to me.

thank you steve for beating me to the fact that no other predator kills for sport.

and AZ wtf man? I don't recall ever quoting anything about us being a plaque, I do however recall feeling that way about civilization.

[AzCivic]

your right animals don't kill eachother for sport, they do kill the young of a female so she'll let him hump her though, then again now that i think of it i have seen animals just kill something for fun, cats/mice are the first things that come to mind.

Gosei, maybe it was someone else, I can't recall the exact thread, so i apologize.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by GT40FIED
Of course there are groups trying to fix things. They make up...what...about .01% of the population? As of this moment in time, recycling programs in many major cities are jokes, hardly anyone needs whale parts for anything, people's stupidity and paranoia is the only thing causing overuse of medication, and there is no way of making pollution free energy. Paying these problems lip service is all fine and good, but it doesn't make them better. Wait...I'll be right right back...I have to go drill for oil in wildlife refuges to make the world a better place by selling that oil to China.

Ok...now that I'm back...I don't think the point that we place restrictions on killing proves anything except that a few of us had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity. That, and we figured out that if we killed them off we couldn't have fun killing them anymore. Show me another species that kills for fun or "sport" and I'll give you a cookie. You make it sound like predators move in and just fuck up everyone's christmas. That's not how it works. Almost all predators will simply kill what they need to survive. I'll let you know the next time I see a wolf with a deer's head over it's mantle, though.

have you gotten bored w/ this and just want to be an ass now or what? just because things are going how you think they should doesnt mean they're not making a difference.

and i want my cookie for my cats/mice example, the males wanting to hump the female should get me another cookie.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
have you gotten bored w/ this and just want to be an ass now or what? just because things are going how you think they should doesnt mean they're not making a difference.

and i want my cookie for my cats/mice example, the males wanting to hump the female should get me another cookie.

Bored? No. Have I realized it's futility? Yes. This thing could go on for 1000 pages and I'm not going to change your mind and you won't change my mind. We'll simpy go back and forth presenting one example after another of something and then the other will counter it. I wasn't actually trying to be an ass...but I did feel like cracking a couple jokes to keep myself amused.

Oh...and I don't think cats and mice qualify. Cats do toy with their prey if it's small enough, but I don't think they do it for fun or sport.

[AzCivic]

true, it is somewhat tedious now.

how about killer whales and sea lions? i've seen a few videos where they just maim the hell out of them for fun.

and how does "toy with" not equal "for fun"? either way the mouse dies for no reason, same with lizards, bugs, birds and whatever else my cat drags in after it killed it for no reason.

[GT40FIED]

Originally posted by AzCivic
true, it is somewhat tedious now.

how about killer whales and sea lions? i've seen a few videos where they just maim the hell out of them for fun.

and how does "toy with" not equal "for fun"? either way the mouse dies for no reason, same with lizards, bugs, birds and whatever else my cat drags in after it killed it for no reason.

Domesticated cats, yes. But even then they'll usually eat what they catch. My cats always do. Some cats will present their kills to you to impress you or show their loyalty. Then again...we're talking about domesticated cats. They've been bred to lessen their natural instincts and be cuddly and cute.