"Why should I swap my D series out?"

[pdiggitydogg]

This is the one, the only, 'D vs B' thread. If you are wondering whether or not to swap out your D for a B...you came to the right place.
A 'no holds barred' thread, where anything goes (within the language limits...). Voice your opinion, experience, thoughts, and questions right here.
If you have a situation on another thread with 'D vs B', please come here and start the bickering again. Im not moderating this post unless I hear "So and so called me a little turd and said my mom was fat" or whatever...then I'll edit that part out.

(A good reference - http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=878010 )

Have at it...(anyone is welcome to play either side of the field, of course)

I'll start:
Why would anyone want to swap out a perfectly good D16 motor? I mean for the price of a B16 you could easily build the D up to totally kick its ass on the streets and the strip.
A complete B16 SiR2 swap at a good price costs around $2k...ok... For that cost I could bore the D to 1.7xL making essentially a B18, I could port and polish the head @ a 5angle job, and prep the motor for serious boost or N2O. Even after all that I would probably have some money left over to upgrade at least some of the valvetrain so it could rev to 9K or higher. With boost that would put down some serious numbers.
So...why the hell should I spend all that money on an engine that has the same displacement??

[Shaved &/or Laid]

because all teh above mentioned stuff can be done to a B.

and some people have the unfortunate 250,000 mile D series that doesnt run, and burned oil when it did.

[pdiggitydogg]

sure, but then youre spending twice as much
and then another few grand (or more) on a turbo

[oc civic]

Originally posted by Shaved &/or Laid
because all teh above mentioned stuff can be done to a B.

and some people have the unfortunate 250,000 mile D series that doesnt run, and burned oil when it did.

http://www.zex.com/Community/Gallery/

exactly why i would NOT swap...;)

[Shaved &/or Laid]

but thats not a streetable car :D

it prolly runs on 110 octane too

[oc civic]

Originally posted by Shaved &/or Laid
but thats not a streetable car :D

it prolly runs on 110 octane too
the SECOND car on that page:)

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

If you have 3 g's to spend.... what would you do with it? put it towards the D and have a NICE turbo setup that can easily outrun an SI with I/H/E... the choice is yours...

sure the B series respond well to minor bolt ons but in the end that's all you've got...minor bolt ons... whereas the D may barely gain anythin' out of I/H/E but if you go the proper route (turbo) then you have nearly limitless potential out of the D!

Now i know that you "B People" are gonna start arguin' that.. 'well if turbo the b then my b is faster than your d...' Yes, your right but at what expense, in the end you'll have a faster car but also you would have spent more money....

If you have alot of budget then go build up a B, no one is stoppin' you but for me, i already have a great engine that is running strong and im not about to waste it for an extra camshaft. :yes: And if you have a really big budget then buy an EVO or somethin'.. ;)

[oc civic]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
Now i know that you "B People" are gonna start arguin' that.. 'well if turbo the b then my b is faster than your d...' Yes,

no true.. you can only go so fast.. with a fwd STREETABLE suspension.. and beyond that... i really dont believe (in the practical relm) that a lightly built b and a lightly build d are that differant...

[Shaved &/or Laid]

but, n20 B > boosted D

[cashizslick]

I would like to raise the question of reliability and streetability. A Turbo Dseries car that makes 300whp will be fast yes, but it will not be a streetable car, thus taking the whole daily driver aspect away from it.
It will guzzle mad gas, have insane turbo lag, and be impossible to drive in the wintertime (if you live where i do - yeah NE!).

Now consider this. If i decided to put juice on my car (wet kit of coures - thanks OC), i would be able to make much more power than a Dseries that is boosting on stock internals, and my car would still be a great daily driver which is capable of running 13's.

I would take functionality and reliability over cheap power any day - even if it does cost a lil more.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

my thoughts exactly.

[pdiggitydogg]

Who said anything about 300whp?
So far, lets face it, we're all talking about our daily drivers. We dont need that much power...we probably dont even need 200whp...though it is much more feasible (in either engine).
I think the majority of the people who claim a b16 is an almost pointless upgrade is because it is the same displacement. Why not upgrade to b18?
I mean, if you are planning on building up/upgrading the b16, why not just save money and go for an engine that is, if we go by the standard thinking, a superior motor? We all know that the majority of the "world's fastest hondas" run with turbo GSR's.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
the SECOND car on that page:)

Functionality is better than cheep power.

That is a gutted hatch driven by a trained professional with no ac or powersteering and slicks (probably running on race gas - its too bad they dont say). Thats the only way a 178 whp car can hit a 13.5.

Now, if i did those same mods to my car i would run the same time or better, plus i get to have full interior, street tires, ect.


I would rather have a nice looking, comfortable car that runs a 13 than a Piece of sheet metal with a rocket on it that does the same thing.

[not ment to be offensive]
I think its funney how the article on that page says that ZEX is gonna swap in a STOCK B18 and hit 12's. If you want the piece of sheet metal with a rocket, then build ur D.[/not ment to be offensive]

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
I mean, if you are planning on building up/upgrading the b16, why not just save money and go for an engine that is, if we go by the standard thinking, a superior motor? We all know that the majority of the "world's fastest hondas" run with turbo GSR's.

The difference between my motor and a D16 is 45 hp and 4lbs of torque.

My motor = 170hp
GSR = 170hp

**I dont see a problem here**

-neither do the morons who drive GSR's that i have beaten in races.

The difference between an SiRII and a D16 is a LOT bigger than the diff between an SiRII and a B18C (woowoo, a wopping 2 tenths of a liter).

Anybody who says a D can hold its own with a B has no place to say that a .2 of a liter is a big advantage when you are missing 45hp.

[pdiggitydogg]

If we're talking jdm engines then the gsr/sir-g gets 178crank and 18more ft lbs
[not to be mean] And if youre racing usdm gsr's then I would hope that you'd win...youre 200+ lbs lighter and its the same exact hp rating (sure torque is different though)
Sure, the difference isnt as large, but it being already nearly 1.8L gives it a much more open field to play with, if we're mentioning that.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
If we're talking jdm engines then the gsr/sir-g gets 178crank and 18more ft lbs
[not to be mean] And if youre racing usdm gsr's then I would hope that you'd win...youre 200+ lbs lighter and its the same exact hp rating (sure torque is different though)
Sure, the difference isnt as large, but it being already nearly 1.8L gives it a much more open field to play with, if we're mentioning that.


If .2 of a liter and 8 more hp is a big deal, then why have you not swaped your motor? I have 45 hp on you - now thats a big deal.

Oh ya, and check the price on a JDM B18C - I could take 600$ of the Extra 1.2K the JDM B18C costs and make my motor out perform it.

Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B18C and B16A to make it worth the extra $1.2K.

[pdiggitydogg]

Personally, I havent swapped my motor yet becuase I dont feel the need to right now and I need to pay for school...other than that, no reason.
Yes, you have 45hp on me...and only 9ft lbs of torque
youre famous quote of the day "hp doesnt win races...torque does"
I actually have run my y8 against a friends b16...I cant say that I was too impressed. Of course he came out on top, but it wasnt blazing speed from my vantage point.

Dont get me wrong, Im not against the b16 at all. I like the "torqueless wonder"
Im merely playing the antagonist of both sides (watch, in a few posts I'll jump on the D's)

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
Personally, I havent swapped my motor yet becuase I dont feel the need to right now and I need to pay for school...other than that, no reason.
Yes, you have 45hp on me...and only 9ft lbs of torque
youre famous quote of the day "hp doesnt win races...torque does"
I actually have run my y8 against a friends b16...I cant say that I was too impressed. Of course he came out on top, but it wasnt blazing speed from my vantage point.

Dont get me wrong, Im not against the b16 at all. I like the "torqueless wonder"
Im merely playing the antagonist of both sides (watch, in a few posts I'll jump on the D's)


You didnt answer my question. If the JDM B18C's extra 8hp makes it vastly superior to an almost identical motor of 8 less hp - then why on earth would you waste money building a motor that is obviously inferior (by the standard you yourself established) to another????

[pdiggitydogg]

I told you...Im playing the antagonist of both sides...

However...
The b18 would be superior to the b16 because out of the box its more powerful, safely made into 1.98L giving it even more power, gsr cams are basically the best oe turbo cam honda ever made, drop in ctr pistons (only that) and see upwards of 180-190whp (ive seen dyno's @ Payne Technologies in Troy, Mi), the gsr tranny is, in my opinion, the most well rounded for nearly all applications (na or boost). Moving to the LS, it is easily the most "turo-able" honda motor out there, needing very little work to push high levels of boost, due to the low compression. Always the highly used, yet somewhat pointless option of LSVtec for the most powerful NA B's. The b18b has the highest stock torque rating, though just a smidge over the gsr. If you like to drive in boost then the LS has the best tranny.
Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
I told you...Im playing the antagonist of both sides...

However...
The b18 would be superior to the b16 because out of the box its more powerful, safely made into 1.98L giving it even more power, gsr cams are basically the best oe turbo cam honda ever made, drop in ctr pistons (only that) and see upwards of 180-190whp (ive seen dyno's @ Payne Technologies in Troy, Mi), the gsr tranny is, in my opinion, the most well rounded for nearly all applications (na or boost). Moving to the LS, it is easily the most "turo-able" honda motor out there, needing very little work to push high levels of boost, due to the low compression. Always the highly used, yet somewhat pointless option of LSVtec for the most powerful NA B's. The b18b has the highest stock torque rating, though just a smidge over the gsr. If you like to drive in boost then the LS has the best tranny.
Thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

You still didnt answer the question i just asked you which pretains to the topic of this thread (why should i swap my D) which you created.

I will answer it for you.

You should swap your d series Pdiggs, because you yourself just established that a 8hp and .2 of a liter difference between motors is a big deal - now relate this to the fact that your motor has 45hp less than mine, i'd say that is a sizable difference compared to the already Drastic 8hp difference you just identified for us.

Your argument for building a Dseries motor is illogical, perhaps you need to join the dark side . . .

[pdiggitydogg]

No, it isnt illogicial (and my bad for misunderstanding which thing you were referring to - b18 or d series)

I never really said that .2L and 8hp is a big deal....well, in the honda world it tends to be... I was just making a point for the hell of it. Anyways - D vs B

Alright, lets take the issue of cost a little further. You buy a b16...you blow it (chad)...now what? You just spent 2 grand and now you need a new short block. Thats gonna run you another couple hundered at least (what was it chad? $200 something? for your new shortblock?), and thats pretty cheap. If you take the same exact scenario...hell a whole motor AND trans, off a D and kill it, then you can buy a d16z6 for the price of that b16 shortblock! Dont even get me started on the cost of B series heads...wow is that over priced.
But then again, if you built the D right, with correct sleeves and what not, it shouldnt blow under the load that you put on it (as long as you use 1/2 a brain and dont throw ungodly amounts of boost at it). Thats what building does...

Back to what we really need though... A d16 motor, slightly built, and with the right turbo could very, very easily see 250+ whp (even with a small turbo like a greddy kit's 15g), no problem-o...and it would definately be streetable. Once again back to price...it'd probaby cost around the same as a b16.

[AzCivic]

lets make this as simple as possible:

i have 3k$ and i want the most reliable power possible and right now i have a d16z6/y8 do I :

A.) spend about 1200$ or so on internals/bearings/rings and have a basically brand new motor capable of well over 300whp and spend the rest on a custom turbo kit that should add 100hp to the stock 125 with ease. result: new RELIABLE motor making 225crankhp and probably something like 180ftlbs of torque.

OR

B.) spend it on a swap with an unknown history, unknown condition, get something like 35-45 extra hp(no extra torque if going with the b16). resulting in an UNRELIABLE(cause you dont really know the condition of the engine) 160-170crankhp and the same torque that you started with.

[pdiggitydogg]

(dammit AZ...I wanted to be the one to say "unknown condition")

[AzCivic]

oops sorry ;)

[AzCivic]

now the classic b series argument is a b series has more potential, to which i respond "How much power do you wanna make?" most answers are in the 250-350hp range(and rightly so since anything more is only going to be used to smoke the tires), your not even taping into the extra "potential" at those #'s so you spent all this money and time on an engine that theoritically has more potential but you didnt even use it.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

the reliability issue can go any which way. Yes, i was unfortunate enough to get a POS from Hmotors, cause steve is a douche. Not only did i have a bad rod/bearing/what have you, he sent me shitty mounts that fell apart instantly, and forgot to send the bolts.

BUT the majority of swaps are indeed low mileage. It is a gamble. but also consider the technical aspects. Swapping in a motor is relatively easy on the scale of automotive know how. I mean hell, id never touched a motor in my life and i got it done alone with almost no help, except guys like P and Cash.

Now to do the boosted D route, which is indeed powerful, one must know how to rebuild a motor, no ?. I mean, yes i have to do it, and its not that hard for someone who is technically inclined to get through it, but rebuilding leaves a lot of room for a lot of errors. Everything must be PERFECT or youll cause all hell to break looose. And thats just inside the motor. Then you gotta get it dyno tuned, etc etc. Some people might just want something drop in, like me.

I honestly dont hate D's really, when theyre done right. But to do so, you gotta have a good D, and mine finally lost its last leg.

[AzCivic]

my 1200$ estimate included labor of having the internals swaped out.

an engine can have low miles and be unreliable when you dont know how it was taken care of.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

the mystery point personally got me, i prolly got a POS that some japanese kid ragged out. but thats very rare that people get screwed as i do. *cough shot mounting hardware cough*

[Shaved &/or Laid]

http://members.cox.net/dkkeck/mushroom.jpg

thats my D series

[AzCivic]

could you not have had it rebuilt?

[Shaved &/or Laid]

at that point i was fed up with it and wanted to start fresh.

and, i dont regret my decision. sometimes you just get unlucky.

but, i got plans for the B now ;). Im just tryna make my share of the JDM beast like everyone else, except PDiggs, he wants a EDM beast. :D;)

[pdiggitydogg]

SIDE NOTE:
you know why japanese motors are always "low mileage"?
japan has the worlds toughest smog laws...anything older than 3yrs max cant pass emissions.


and I just like the edm goodies :flick:
...though they did get a ctr
At least I hooked up my clock right :nana:

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
my 1200$ estimate included labor of having the internals swaped out.


Then you must have a deal we dont.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

well, that might not be with sleeving.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by cashizslick
I would like to raise the question of reliability and streetability. A Turbo Dseries car that makes 300whp will be fast yes, but it will not be a streetable car, thus taking the whole daily driver aspect away from it.
It will guzzle mad gas, have insane turbo lag, and be impossible to drive in the wintertime (if you live where i do - yeah NE!).

Now consider this. If i decided to put juice on my car (wet kit of coures - thanks OC), i would be able to make much more power than a Dseries that is boosting on stock internals, and my car would still be a great daily driver which is capable of running 13's.

I would take functionality and reliability over cheap power any day - even if it does cost a lil more.


It seems i have to repeat myself. Nobody is considering the reliability/streetability/functionality issue here.

A Bseries that makes 300whp is gonna be more reliable than a D that makes 300hp. The D is working harder to make the same ammount of power.

Granted, 300 hp is still 300 hp, but when the D has a turbo setup that doesnt hit full boost till 4800rpms and low compression, it wont perform as well as a B16 with a smaller turbo/higher compression setup that makes the same amount of power.

In this case, the B will be a better street car and it could easily be tuned to beat the D at the track (i.e. it would be easier to get more than 300hp).

If the setups yeild the same final power, the car with the B will still be a better car.

Oh ya, and since you can make more power overall with a B, you can also have a system and any other rice you want on ur car.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Then you must have a deal we dont.

like shaved said, its with out sleeving which isnt necessary.

[cashizslick]

Az, what do you think of the reliability and functionality issue i just addressed?

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
It seems i have to repeat myself. Nobody is considering the reliability/streetability/functionality issue here.

A Bseries that makes 300whp is gonna be more reliable than a D that makes 300hp. The D is working harder to make the same ammount of power.

Granted, 300 hp is still 300 hp, but when the D has a turbo setup that doesnt hit full boost till 4800rpms and low compression, it wont perform as well as a B16 with a smaller turbo/higher compression setup that makes the same amount of power.

In this case, the B will be a better street car and it could easily be tuned to beat the D at the track (i.e. it would be easier to get more than 300hp).

If the setups yeild the same final power, the car with the B will still be a better car.

Oh ya, and since you can make more power overall with a B, you can also have a system and any other rice you want on ur car.

your making a bunch of assumptions, like why do you assume you have to go to a low compression with a dseries motor? why do you assume boost wont come on until 4800? why do you assume one engine is "working harder" than another? why do you assume that if you turbocharge a dseries engine its not streetable?

and i did bring up reliability in my first post.

also if 2 civics are at the track making exactly 300hp(one a d other a b); ones gonna have money left over in thier over all budget(they gotta be the same right?) for about 3 grand worth of suspension/tires/drivetrain/valvetrain/nitrous/resleeving etc, not all them obviously.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by AzCivic
lets make this as simple as possible:

i have 3k$ and i want the most reliable power possible and right now i have a d16z6/y8 do I :

A.) spend about 1200$ or so on internals/bearings/rings and have a basically brand new motor capable of well over 300whp and spend the rest on a custom turbo kit that should add 100hp to the stock 125 with ease. result: new RELIABLE motor making 225crankhp and probably something like 180ftlbs of torque.

OR

B.) spend it on a swap with an unknown history, unknown condition, get something like 35-45 extra hp(no extra torque if going with the b16). resulting in an UNRELIABLE(cause you dont really know the condition of the engine) 160-170crankhp and the same torque that you started with.


My ANSWER is "A"!


that's my final answer! :pfft:

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
your making a bunch of assumptions, like why do you assume you have to go to a low compression with a dseries motor? why do you assume boost wont come on until 4800? why do you assume one engine is "working harder" than another? why do you assume that if you turbocharge a dseries engine its not streetable?

and i did bring up reliability in my first post.

also if 2 civics are at the track making exactly 300hp(one a d other a b); ones gonna have money left over in thier over all budget(they gotta be the same right?) for about 3 grand worth of suspension/tires/drivetrain/valvetrain/nitrous/resleeving etc, not all them obviously.

The d series will have to have a low comp bigger laggier turbo setup to make the same power as a B with a normal sized quick spooling turbo.

Thats why - yes the D would be cheeper to make, but, its quality before quantity.

Like i said earlier - i'd rather have a nice car with a lil more money into it than a gutted car with no interior and a D just to save some money.

[AzCivic]

another example of an assumption:

"The d series will have to have a low comp bigger laggier turbo setup to make the same power as a B with a normal sized quick spooling turbo."

[cashizslick]

Prove me wrong.

Since the D is much weaker than a B, it needs more work to make the same ammount of power.

Its kinda like this - anything you can do i can do better.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick
The d series will have to have a low comp bigger laggier turbo setup to make the same power as a B with a normal sized quick spooling turbo.

Thats why - yes the D would be cheeper to make, but, its quality before quantity.

Like i said earlier - i'd rather have a nice car with a lil more money into it than a gutted car with no interior and a D just to save some money.

i've seen several turbo D that's making 300WHP using the greddy 15G (i'll be the first to have 300WHP using greddy's 19T ;) ) , and we all know that that turbo is not a definition of a laggy turbo.. a d powered car wouldn't have to be stripped if its boosted because.... a turbo d would make more torque than a NA b powered car, now if the b powered car is boostin' then that's a different argument altogether

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
i've seen several turbo D that's making 300WHP using the greddy 15G (i'll be the first to have 300WHP using greddy's 19T ;) ) , and we all know that that turbo is not a definition of a laggy turbo.. a d powered car wouldn't have to be stripped if its boosted because.... a turbo d would make more torque than a NA b powered car, now if the b powered car is boostin' then that's a different argument altogether

What else was done to the motor?

If you did whatever was done to that D series motor to a Bseries, then well, lets just say the D would still get the short end o da stick.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Prove me wrong.

Since the D is much weaker than a B, it needs more work to make the same ammount of power.

Its kinda like this - anything you can do i can do better.

great concept of argument... but can you define weak for me..

i'm sure we can all agree that there is a correlation between a b being stronger than a d but your argument would be pointless if your definition of weak is different from mine..

[AzCivic]

pick the d16 and the b16(and cash which one is more streetable):

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/12/web/480000-480999/480145_26_full.jpg

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
great concept of argument... but can you define weak for me..

i'm sure we can all agree that there is a correlation between a b being stronger than a d but your argument would be pointless if your definition of weak is different from mine..

I was putting things in laymans terms for you.

The D is limited in a number of aspects - its design does not allow it to produce the same hp in stock trim that a B would allow. Therefore, as higher levels of performance are desired from each motor, the D's weaknesses just become more and more apparent (as if they arnt already).

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
pick the d16 and the b16(and cash which one is more streetable):

http://images.cardomain.com/member_images/12/web/480000-480999/480145_26_full.jpg


Wow, this chart is so informative it doesnt even say what cars it is testing - this could be for anything.


** Next

[AzCivic]

we arent talking stock motors, were talking about getting the most reliable power with a certain budget.

[AzCivic]

"Wow, this chart is so informative it doesnt even say what cars it is testing - this could be for anything.


** Next"

DIDNT I SAY PICK THE D16 AND THE B16!?

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
we arent talking stock motors, were talking about getting the most reliable power with a certain budget.

Oh i didnt know we were talking budget - if we are talking budget, yes, it is easier to get more from a D than just a swap.

But, if you want more functionality/reliability/drivability out of your car, then Swap in a real motor (b series of corse) and put down some serious numbers so ur car will be able to have things like power steering, a sunroof, full interior, a system, street tires, and room for another person.

Quality before quantity.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
"Wow, this chart is so informative it doesnt even say what cars it is testing - this could be for anything.


** Next"

DIDNT I SAY PICK THE D16 AND THE B16!?

That graph could mean anything - BTW, i could go online and find a graph to prove just the opposite of whatever it is this mystery graph is trying to tell me.


BTW - whatever you do to a D you can always do to a B and get better results so this mystery graph doesnt mean anything.

Mod for Mod a Bseries motor will win every time.

[AzCivic]

edit: sorry lost my temper.

here's the setup of the engines on the graph

d16y8, zex cam/springs, skunk2 IM, b16 TB, greddy 15g, FMIC, 290cc, 12psi.

b16, ctr cams, t3/to4E,FMIC, fmu, vafc, 440cc 12psi

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
edit: sorry lost my temper.

here's the setup of the engines on the graph

d16y8, zex cam/springs, skunk2 IM, b16 TB, greddy 15g, FMIC, 290cc, 12psi.

b16, ctr cams, t3/to4E,FMIC, fmu, vafc, 440cc 12psi

Your graph makes no sence. The D has a higher grade of cam than the B, and it has more parts to it.

Granted the B is flowing twice the ammount of air and fuel, but thats not the point i am trying to make here.

Two motors with two different setups will yeild 2 different results. Like i said before, i could use a graph to prove anything.

Lets start simple here. If i put all the mods to my motor that you have on urs - test pipe, header, exhaust, flywheel, ect - then my car would get more out of those mods than yours would because i have a bigger motor.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick

Mod for Mod a Bseries motor will win every time.

Really? May I ask how you know this? If you can back this up with evidence then by all means I agree that a Bseries is superior in comparison to a Dseries, until then your opinion doesn't mean squat. * not tryin' to sound like a jackass*

[AzCivic]

like i ALREADY said: were not talking about mod for mod were talking dollar for dollar.

cash stop repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
Really? May I ask how you know this? If you can back this up with evidence then by all means I agree that a Bseries is superior in comparison to a Dseries, until then your opinion doesn't mean squat. * not tryin' to sound like a jackass*

Ok, i am stating a fact. If its not a fact, then prove that i am wrong. Logically, a more powerfull motor will make more power than a weaker motor if the motors are given the same mods. **if what i just said wasnt true, then prove it**

Its true like it or not.

Ok, Lets take our 2 cars. you put a street/strip cam in ur car, and i put the equivalent offered by the same company (2 cams in my case) in my car and who is faster?

You get an intake and i get an intake - who is faster?

You put Greddy's 19T kit on ur car, and i put their 00 civic SI kit on my car - who's faster.

I will answer all 3 of those for you: ME

The only thing a d series has going for it is that it is in most Civics to begin with, other than that, nobody would ever swap one in their car.

[AzCivic]

if we want to use you as an example: hmm what could i do with 5 grand?

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick
The only thing a d series has going for it is that it is in most Civics to begin with, other than that, nobody would ever swap one in their car.


um...actually, its quite the contrary, there's lots of people that swap in a d series as there are swapping in a b series... so let's not make any more assumptions cuz it strays us from the real issue...

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
like i ALREADY said: were not talking about mod for mod were talking dollar for dollar.

cash stop repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

Kinda tough, im still trying to tell Sohc_sheetec_Tuner that Mod for Mod a B series is gonna win every time, while at the same time arguing about reliability and practicality with you lol.

Dollar for dollar, a D will be cheeper to build untill its power level is finally reached.

As for me, i would rather have a quick spooling turbo setup on my current motor than a bigger slower spoolin turbo on my old motor - even if the cars put out the same exact hp and tq, the B would still be better because it yeilds a more responsive setup.

yes it is more expensive, and i am not denying that at all, but no matter what setup you have on a D, a less agressive setup on a B will be more responsive an yeild the same gains.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick


You put Greddy's 19T kit on ur car, and i put their 00 civic SI kit on my car - who's faster.



let's go find out! i wish i had the money to...;) actually, that wouldn't be fair because you'd be pushin' more psi..i think..

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

mr. " cash is tryin' to be slick"... (hehe :D ).. how exactly do you know that mod for mod that your car outperforms mine everytime?? that is your personal opinion , and we all know that personal opinion doesn't mean a thing in terms of using it as evidence...

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
let's go find out! i wish i had the money to...;) actually, that wouldn't be fair because you'd be pushin' more psi..i think..

And, umm, i have a better starting point - even if we both used the same kit you would still looze. Not to be a moron, but a D could never go shot to shot with a b

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
mr. " cash is tryin' to be slick"... (hehe :D ).. how exactly do you know that mod for mod that your car outperforms mine everytime?? that is your personal opinion , and we all know that personal opinion doesn't mean a thing in terms of using it as evidence...

Buddy, i have said it before and i will say it again. A more powerfull motor will see more gains than a smaller motor when you do the same things to each of em.

My car with AEM intake, DC 4-1 header, and THermal Classic catback will do better than yours or az's cause i have a more powerfull motor.

Its not an assumption, its fact - at least untill you find me an instance where a D and a B were given the same mods and the D put out higher numbers.

[AzCivic]

news flash a b16 and d16 is the same size engine, so if thats your basis for a b16 getting more from a bolt on than a d16, its wrong.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
news flash a b16 and d16 is the same size engine, so if thats your basis for a b16 getting more from a bolt on than a d16, its wrong.

Then why does a stock civic SI beat up on ur car?

Just cause they displace the same doesnt mean anything - i still got 45hp on you. I mean seriously, the new Ford ****ass has what 150hp and 150 tq? By that rationale it should outperform my car in every way, but when i look in my rear view mirror, its back there with all the Dseries powered hondas - what is that about??

[AzCivic]

your not beating any d series civic with 5 grand in engine upgrades into it now are you?

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
your not beating any d series civic with 5 grand in engine upgrades into it now are you?

Hey, if you put 5k into a D and 5k into a B the b will still be faster.

The B is a better motor, if you build it, you will be better off than if you built a D

[AzCivic]

you missed the whole point i've been trying to make.

[cashizslick]

No, i got distracted from your point.

I realize that it is cheeper to build the d since its in ur car to start with.

But, it doesnt offer the advantages of building a B.

[AzCivic]

then say it! say "Getting 250-300hp with the d series is cheaper than swaping to a b series"

and dont bring up any crap about reliability as i've already proven your reliability point wrong.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by AzCivic
"Getting 250-300hp with the d series is cheaper than swaping to a b series"


:yes:

i'm too tired to argue right now, i'll be back tomorrow.. ;)

i thought picking what to eat for breakfast is hard... this is even worse...

[pdiggitydogg]

isnt this great?

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
then say it! say "Getting 250-300hp with the d series is cheaper than swaping to a b series"

and dont bring up any crap about reliability as i've already proven your reliability point wrong.


I never said that it was cheeper to get 250hp by a motor swap. If you started with the B in the first place, yes, it would be cheeper.

No, you havent proven my reliability point wrong at all. A Dseries making 250hp is working much much harder than a Bseries doing the same thing.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AzCivic
and dont bring up any crap about reliability as i've already proven your reliability point wrong.


I just re red this thread, and i see no proof of the impossible.

The D aint ment to be a performance motor where as the B is.

Lets put it in easy terms, if you get your D to make 170 crank hp (my stock hp rating) then the D is going to be working much harder than my motor will be to make the extra power - thus making it less reliable.

If thats not true, then i should swap in my old POS d16 and junk my B16

[Shaved &/or Laid]

Alright since i slept through all this, i think what cash is trying to say about the boost is this:

to make more power from a d, you need a larger turbo. Larger turbo spools slower. (depending on bearings and trim etc, of course) Usually, to do something like double/ almost triple the power of a D series youre going to have to turn the boost up really high. BUT they are saying people are using 15g's...are they basically just going sans wastegate with these ? seems like 12 psi is pretty much the most a hairdryer that size will put out ?

im just asking for info really.

and, to explain my situation, i already had a blown D. I also didnt really wanna go the turbo route on whats basically my first car. So, preference being stated towards n/a setup, a B is a little easier to reach my goals. :)

[oc civic]

didn't read the whole thing but heres the end of my thoughts on it.. they are pretty simple..

all of you with b16 swaps... as stated the lack of torque is the problem.. through nitrous injection ($500 TOTAL cost) i make way more torque AND am faster in a heavier car... so i still have $2500 left of the 3k you spent.... with that i could build an almost race motor.. OR a milder build TWICE... and thats right.. STILL be faster

everyone keep saying.. well i can build my b i can build my b.. sure you can... how much more are you going to spend on that?2k?

ok so now you have 5 THOUSAND into just the motor and i bet you can spin tires all the way down the 1/4... drag racing is not JUST power... when you build your n/a b.. ill go to 2 stage direct port.. and suspension including slicks.. and ill STILL have spent less and ill STILL win.. you may have better dyno numbers.. no wait.. you WILL have better dyno numbers.. but who cares if you lose... the point is without being pretty race preped you will not go faster than 11's and it is very posible to get a single cam into the 12's with the right build AND suspension...

there was a kid named eric who lives near me he had a turbo h22.. it made TONS of power.. he ran a mid 12... because he could not hook for shit..

[Shaved &/or Laid]

OC you need to hurry up and do that n2 thread so i can juice when i move out.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by oc civic
no true.. you can only go so fast.. with a fwd STREETABLE suspension.. and beyond that... i really dont believe (in the practical relm) that a lightly built b and a lightly build d are that differant...

dont tell that to the people running 8 second quarter miles in their hatchbacks!!!!!

[oc civic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
dont tell that to the people running 8 second quarter miles in their hatchbacks!!!!!

im not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not.. but i have yet to see an 8sec honda on stock type suspension..

[Honda_Tengoku]

B16's Yuck!!! I hate B16's. Screw the B16, and get the B18B. Bottom line the B18 engines are a better starting block than a D series for power. It has a better aftermarket, more tunability, and stock to stock will handle more abuse. I do agree that its not to smart to go with a B16 if u have a perfectly healthy D16. No more displacement, no more torque (atleast not really, and the only reason is cuz of the cam), and u just spent all that money for a swap and its only a bit faster than the D16Z6 in the same car. I was eating up B16a CRX's with my D16Z6 hb with my bolt ons and weight reduction. Most of the B16 CRX's were only running 15.4's.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Then why does a stock civic SI beat up on ur car?

Just cause they displace the same doesnt mean anything - i still got 45hp on you. I mean seriously, the new Ford ****ass has what 150hp and 150 tq? By that rationale it should outperform my car in every way, but when i look in my rear view mirror, its back there with all the Dseries powered hondas - what is that about??

Really? Hmm.... Well my D powered HB was eating stock B16 powered Civic Si's alive. Not to mention I raced a Civic Si with the exact same bolt ons as me, (I/h/e). Lets put it this way. He lost! Although later in the night he got his car down to 14.9. Which was a tenth away from my best.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by AzCivic
edit: sorry lost my temper.

here's the setup of the engines on the graph

d16y8, zex cam/springs, skunk2 IM, b16 TB, greddy 15g, FMIC, 290cc, 12psi.

b16, ctr cams, t3/to4E,FMIC, fmu, vafc, 440cc 12psi


I agree a little bit with Cash here. WTF was that person with the B16 thinking? CTR cam on boost? moron......

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by oc civic
im not sure if you are beign sarcastic or not.. but i have yet to see an 8sec honda on stock type suspension..

u said FWD suspension. U never said anything about stock.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
u said FWD suspension. U never said anything about stock.

actualy i said streetable.. which discounted extremely rigid rear springs, wheelie bars, etc... things you would NOT normaly run on the street

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by oc civic
actualy i said streetable.. which discounted extremely rigid rear springs, wheelie bars, etc... things you would NOT normaly run on the street


depends on what u call streetable. My version would prolly be different from yours. One of my friends has 900 pound H and R drag springs in the rear of his Accord and that car is very streetable.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
depends on what u call streetable. My version would prolly be different from yours. One of my friends has 900 pound H and R drag springs in the rear of his Accord and that car is very streetable.

ANYTHING is "streetable" but i think you know what i meant... there are not a ton of daily driven 8 sec hatches running around

[Shaved &/or Laid]

theres not a ton of 8 second anything running around

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by oc civic
ANYTHING is "streetable" but i think you know what i meant... there are not a ton of daily driven 8 sec hatches running around
no there are not. My point is that it is possible. Just when someone thinks that front wheel drives have gotten as fast as they are going to get, someone else proves them wrong. Five years ago people laughed at the thought of an 8 second hatchback (especially the domestic driving redneck imbreds). They said it wasn't impossible. Now here we are. Hell we have all-motor ones running low 10's. Thats impressive. Who knows what we will be running five years from now. Prolly pretty damn fast with the new K series.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B18C and B16A to make it worth the extra $1.2K.

Basically, there is not a big enough difference between the B16A and D16 to make it worth the extra money.

[Shaved &/or Laid]

its not worth trying to make a honda blazing fast either, but we still try do it :D

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
I just re red this thread, and i see no proof of the impossible.

The D aint ment to be a performance motor where as the B is.

Lets put it in easy terms, if you get your D to make 170 crank hp (my stock hp rating) then the D is going to be working much harder than my motor will be to make the extra power - thus making it less reliable.

If thats not true, then i should swap in my old POS d16 and junk my B16

no a b16 is just more EFFICIENT at making power with 1.6ltr of displacement, more effiecient cause it has a higher compression and a better flowing head/cam. if my engine is making 170hp its burning the same amount of fuel as a b16 making 170hp. ALSO like i already said and some on this site have learned, a rebuilt motor with race ready forged internals is going to be more reliable than some engine from some car with some unkown amount of miles on it and unknown care history.

Once again i've proved you wrong, so stop repeating this argument.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
I agree a little bit with Cash here. WTF was that person with the B16 thinking? CTR cam on boost? moron......

why not? overlap can be tuned out for the most part on a DOHC engine with cam gears, can it not?

[ebpda9]

i am not too familiar with the d or the b series, but i see the b series as not being tuned at all from the performance POV, while i see the b16 pretty maxed out performance wise. So i see both engines maxing out at about the same hp numbers, only the d being cheaper to get there:yes:

[Shaved &/or Laid]

so youre saying the extra cam and a nuch better transmissiion is worthless.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by AzCivic
why not? overlap can be tuned out for the most part on a DOHC engine with cam gears, can it not?

sure u can tune some overlap out, but not all. It just is not a good cam to boost on. U would do better with a GSR cam, or a turbo cam. One of my friends had a Prelude Type S with 7 pounds of boost (yes I know its a different car, but it is a high overlap cam like the CTR). With cam gears trying to get as much overlap out as possible. I believe he went -3 degrees on one side, and +3 degrees on the other cam (or something like that, I could talk to him if it really matters). Basically he pushed the cam timing as far as u can take it safely on a street engine. Dont get me wrong cam gears made a world of difference on the Type S cams but, then he changed out the cams for the H22A1 cam and it made a huge difference over the Type S cams once it was tuned with cam gears. I know they are not the same engines, but the results and ideas are similar. BTW he ran a best of 13.5 with slicks with 7 pounds of boost, and an exhaust.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by AzCivic
no a b16 is just more EFFICIENT at making power with 1.6ltr of displacement, more effiecient cause it has a higher compression and a better flowing head/cam. if my engine is making 170hp its burning the same amount of fuel as a b16 making 170hp. ALSO like i already said and some on this site have learned, a rebuilt motor with race ready forged internals is going to be more reliable than some engine from some car with some unkown amount of miles on it and unknown care history.

Once again i've proved you wrong, so stop repeating this argument.


once again its about thermal efficiency....

[pdiggitydogg]

yes, overlap can be tuned out with gears...it'd be a good way to make even more power all the way to 9grand.
Problem again is all the tuning and playing with it that youd have to do on the dyno...
98spec ctr cams would be best - in 99 itr and ctr cams became the same

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
sure u can tune some overlap out, but not all. It just is not a good cam to boost on. U would do better with a GSR cam, or a turbo cam. One of my friends had a Prelude Type S with 7 pounds of boost (yes I know its a different car, but it is a high overlap cam like the CTR). With cam gears trying to get as much overlap out as possible. I believe he went -3 degrees on one side, and +3 degrees on the other cam (or something like that, I could talk to him if it really matters). Basically he pushed the cam timing as far as u can take it safely on a street engine. Dont get me wrong cam gears made a world of difference on the Type S cams but, then he changed out the cams for the H22A1 cam and it made a huge difference over the Type S cams once it was tuned with cam gears. I know they are not the same engines, but the results and ideas are similar. BTW he ran a best of 13.5 with slicks with 7 pounds of boost, and an exhaust.

i find it hard to believe going back to stock cams made a "huge difference", any dyno proof?

[AzCivic]

hmmm b16 power at no where near the price and no gamble:

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/145/145150/folders/127347/884760dyno3.jpg

bolt ons(including a skunk2 IM) and a cam

power was still rising at redline so with just an increase in the rev-limit and a test pipe 145wheel hp should be very easy, this is with the stock 9.2:1 compression

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

what hp does the SI baseline at??? i'm pretty sure the Y8 is approximately 107-109.. so according to the graph above the d's baseline compared to the b is not that far apart..

[AzCivic]

a b16 gets a stock dyno somewhere in the 130-140hp range. i think thats what your asking :confused:

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

Originally posted by AzCivic
a b16 gets a stock dyno somewhere in the 130-140hp range. i think thats what your asking :confused:

yup...generally i see stock SI baseline at 136HP i believe... so the B aren't that much ahead. if both engines are built up internally then i think the HP/TQ figures are up for grabs.. i don't really think one engine is superior over the other because its stock number is higher..... so basically anything can happen :yes:

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i find it hard to believe going back to stock cams made a "huge difference", any dyno proof?

he never went to a stock cam. He went to a H22A1 cam. His stock cam was the Type S since it was a type S engine. hello! No I dont have any dynos. Dynos are not what matters its the fastest time down the track. Just ET's, well GTECH ones as far as that goes. The only real ET that he has was after the H22A1 cam was installed. That time he ran at the track I believe it was a 13.5. Ohh yeah that was about a year and a half ago. Not to mention I have driven the car and rode in it countless times. It seemed to make a difference to me anyways. I just dont believe u can tune ALL of the overlap out of a high overlap cam such as a CTR cam, or the Type S cam. Can u prove what u say?

[Honda_Tengoku]

ohh yeah btw your dyno graph proves nothing. That person with the CTR cam installed on boost could not even have cam gears, or he could not even have them tuned right. Truly u need more info for your graph. It is truly incomplete. I can get a turbod B18C1 to beat an turbod H22 on a damn dyno if wanted the GSR to win the test.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
he never went to a stock cam. He went to a H22A1 cam. His stock cam was the Type S since it was a type S engine. hello! No I dont have any dynos. Dynos are not what matters its the fastest time down the track. Just ET's, well GTECH ones as far as that goes. The only real ET that he has was after the H22A1 cam was installed. That time he ran at the track I believe it was a 13.5. Ohh yeah that was about a year and a half ago. Not to mention I have driven the car and rode in it countless times. It seemed to make a difference to me anyways. I just dont believe u can tune ALL of the overlap out of a high overlap cam such as a CTR cam, or the Type S cam. Can u prove what u say?

whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by AzCivic
whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive. back to my earlier statement who cares about power OR trap speed if you still lose..

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
ohh yeah btw your dyno graph proves nothing. That person with the CTR cam installed on boost could not even have cam gears, or he could not even have them tuned right. Truly u need more info for your graph. It is truly incomplete. I can get a turbod B18C1 to beat an turbod H22 on a damn dyno if wanted the GSR to win the test.

ok i'll ask him and find out. the real point of even posting the dyno was to show cash how "streetable" a d16 is on boost, which by the looks of the graph the d16 is making a crap load of low end power on 12psi with the 15g, on a STOCK D16 bottom end.

[Honda_Tengoku]

i know why u posted it. And I agree with some of what u have said.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by AzCivic
whatever you knew what i meant. and your wrong about the ET's being what really matters, those are dependant on traction/shifting and other bs, TRAP SPEED tells you if your making more power, as does a dyno(duh). for example: if you take .2 off you 60ft time due to a better launch/tires/whatever , you get a .4 off you 1/4mile time, the engine isnt making any more power, you just got a better launch. who says you have to tune out ALL the overlap, all you have to do is make sure its not excessive.
I know exactly what ET's consist of, and what the MPH mean. Unfotunately just cuz u make good power on the dyno it doesnt mean u will be fast. For instance the most power on a Dyno say for fuel tuning, and cam tuning may not necissarily be the fastest way down the strip. As a matter of fact alot of times it isnt. Many people who run their car find faster times changing tuning aspects of their car at the strip after it has been dyno tuned. Most people that I know dont change it drastically obviously (just small changes). This is especially true in American muscle cars. So I say again its about being faster down the strip, not what your car does on a piece of paper. Who really cares what a car dynos at. Its what the car can do!
well as far as the ET's goes the car wasnt changed other than the cam. It seemed to make a significant difference, to the butt dyno, and to the GTECH.

[esthirteen]

Hey B16 guys, take these numbers into consideration.....
http://www.turbod16.com/viewtopic.php?t=4140
These numbers are basically mild setups and they still don't cost as much as you have spent.

[pdiggitydogg]

I was trying to get that link forever........unfortunately turbod16 was down for a few days (when i needed it!)

[AzCivic]

oh yeah i forgot about this. i like the first one, a stock d16 block making 300hp with just the afc hack.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

you know what i like about the D is there's a million of 'em out there....one can be had for $300. with a mild turbo setup you can easily run 13s

[Honda_Tengoku]

BTW I think this dyno is a fake, http://www.turbod16.com/album_pic.php?pic_id=623

notice how the torque and horsepower curves dont appear to cross at 5252. It maybe just my eyes (it is very hard to read).

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

that link says i'm not authorized to access the page... but i think i know what your talkin' about though..

[turbowhat_n_dat]

A lot safer, to swap in a B series, I'm imagining nothing could ever go wrong with this motor, its indestructible!!!

I have this thing with dollar to horsepower ratio.

I have to ask, who can really justify spending say $3000.00 for say 40hp gain??? Then gain modest amounts of hp through purchasing bolt ons that include I/H/E creating say a well respected 30hp more for another $1000.00??? (considering you do the swap for $3k and other work yourself)

$3k / 40hp = $75.00 per 1 horsepower --------------------swap
$1k / 30hp = $33.00 per 1 horsepower --------------------bolt ons

Now your out $4,000.00 and gained 70hp @ $57.00 per 1 horsepower -----not really a deal if you think about it.

Then say what everyone says: add a turbo to your B18c and you got mad horsepower.

$3k / 100hp = $30.00 per 1 horsepower -----------------turbo kit for B18c

Now your out $7k and gained 170hp @ $41.00 per 1 horsepower -------still not a deal, but hey you spent $7,000.00 and now have 300 crank horsepower or 255 wheel horsepower.

=============================================
Or keep your D/B series for example purposes I will use the D. Have 130chp or 105whp.

Spend $3,000.000 on a turbo kit and $1000.00 on an exhaust system, fuel pump, oil pump, water pump, fuel filter, new head bolts, and timing belt. (Considering you do the work yourself also)

Turbo kit gaining RELIABLE hp @ 205whp or an actual gain of 100hp
Exhaust bolt on gaining a respectable 10hp.

$3k / 100hp = $30.00 per 1 horsepower -------------turbo kit
$1k / 10hp = $100.00 per 1 horsepower -------------exhaust

Now your out $4k and gained 110hp @ $36.00 per 1 horsepower ------still no deal for $ to hp ratios. However, you spent $4,000.00 and now have 240chp or 210whp.

Now considering you are 80-100 # lighter with the D engine vs. the B engine this almost makes up for that 45whp that you don't gain saving you $3,000.00.

Or use that $3,000.00 to build your block and btm end and put a complete head job on giving you another 100hp. Making your $7,000.00 investment $33.00 per 1 horsepower still being reliable by adding a dual stage boost controller running 12psi daily and 18-20psi when you need it to kick the shit out of that modestly modded B series for the same cost factor.

Could someone justify this to me!!!!!!!!
==============================================

Then you get into the car down time which is a whole other story.

originally stated by ben: "here's the way I look at it... why push your d engine to give you every hp it'll give you when you can just swap it out with a b engine, not work the engine as hard and get the same hp! longer engine life if you swap."

A: true, well not really the same hp as I compared that out for you. But I'll do it again since you didnt quite catch it the first time: 160chp stock B16 + 70hp gain taking you to 230chp or 184whp on $4k. 130chp stock D16y8 + 100 + 10 gain taking you to 240chp or 192whp on the same $4k. Considering you are 80-100 # lighter with the D engine vs. the B engine and have a slight gain of 8 hp or the amount of a good I/H/E put on the B you will most likely kill the B in the end.
You have more hp and less weight, tell me again how exactly you plan to beat the D for the same cost factor...................
==============================================

again originally stated by ben: "yes but for that same 3k I would get a b18c1 (and yes, I see them sell for 3k all the time) I got 102hp in my eg so I'd get about a 83hp gain going with the gsr engine."


This is true, 83hp giving you a total of 185chp or 148whp. Wow, yeha, you gained modest horsepower for $3k. Lets do a comparison for you as well:

$3k / 83hp = $36.00 per 1 horsepower

add I/H/E spending another $1k and adding that same 30hp, giving you a total now of 215chp or 172whp on your B. Now your out the same $4k as my other comparison and $36.00 per 1 horsepower. You still SHOULD change the oil pump, water pump, timing belt, fuel filter with a swap spending another $600.00 taking you to $41.00 per 1 horsepower. This is all assuming you did the swap yourself!!! Did you??? If not I can figure that out for you to, about $800.00 for the entire swap, bringing your total to $5400.00 and changing your power to $ ratio to $48.00 per 1 horsepower.

or

D series stock w/ Turbo kit gaining RELIABLE hp @ 205whp or an actual gain of 100hp
Exhaust (along with all the necessarys) bolt on gaining a respectable 10hp.

==============================================

Or forget about getting the I/H/E as you already spent $3k on your motor swap gaining 83hp giving you this: $36.00 per 1 horsepower. Giving you civic now 180chp or 144whp.

Or comparing to the $3k spent on your B to the $3k spent on the D adding hp to 250chp and 200whp.

Now your B18c1 is @ 144whp and the D16y8 is @ 200whp................D power baby!!!
==============================================

I'll break that down for you:

$4k on the B18c1 gaining 113hp @ a cost of $36.00 per 1 horsepower; 215chp or 172whp
+80# weight gain

$4k on a D16y_ gaining 110hp @ a cost of $36.00 per 1 horsepower; 240chp or 210whp
no weight gain
==============================================

I guess I'm still confused as to where you justified swapping. Please explain..............

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

^^ now that's argument!!! :yes:

[Brit6]

i was actually debating the same thing over the weekend i already have a civic with a b16 that was already swaped from when i bought the car including i/h/e.

I was going to just sell this civic with the b16 or think about keeping it so i will probably keep it and just add the greddy turbo kit.

The other option is to just turbo the d16 engine...but since i already have a b16 i might as well just turbo it a little.

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by Brit6
i was actually debating the same thing over the weekend i already have a civic with a b16 that was already swaped from when i bought the car including i/h/e.

I was going to just sell this civic with the b16 or think about keeping it so i will probably keep it and just add the greddy turbo kit.

The other option is to just turbo the d16 engine...but since i already have a b16 i might as well just turbo it a little.

b16 is definately a better engine to turbo. If u already have the B16 in there, there is no point in putting the D16 back in there. Besides the B16 will handle more boost than a stock D will anyways. the D series will handle about 200 horsepower stock, and the B series engines will handle about 300 (a few exceptions to both obviously).

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by Honda_Tengoku
b16 is definately a better engine to turbo. If u already have the B16 in there, there is no point in putting the D16 back in there. Besides the B16 will handle more boost than a stock D will anyways. the D series will handle about 200 horsepower stock, and the B series engines will handle about 300 (a few exceptions to both obviously).

Oh ya def - plus the B16's high rev ability will be enhanced by all the torque y0

[Brit6]

well i wasnt going to put the d16 back but i was going to sell the car make some money then buy another civic with the stock d16 and just turbo it. Either way would be good.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by Brit6
well i wasnt going to put the d16 back but i was going to sell the car make some money then buy another civic with the stock d16 and just turbo it. Either way would be good.

why? The B16 is a better motor than a D16.

[Brit6]

yeh its a good motor......i would probably just do it for the heck of it...and the greddy turbo kit for the d16 is cheaper than the b16 version..im pretty sure im going to keep it though im happy with it overall.

[cashizslick]

A friend of mine has a supra that just ran a 10.4 in the quarter with a Greddy T66 unit. He now gets all the Greddy goodies at mad low prices - he said he could get me the parts i need from them for around 1k . . .

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

what's your friends name? i need to talk to him..

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sohc_vtec 2NR
what's your friends name? i need to talk to him..

Ha - its funney, all these morons wanna talk to him cause he has 3 sick cars - a 91 Supra (10.4) Turbo Beetle (14.1) and a 96 Turbo Supra (11.6 @ 130) - i know the trap time for the 11.6 is high, but its because the car had stock rims, tires, and suspension and he couldnt get traction.

I know this guy threw the place where i Kickbox at - so i got an IN lol.

[cashizslick]

This is why you should swap your Dseries.

This is a dyno sheet of a D16Z6 with AEM Cai, Chikara header, and a custom 2.5in exhaust.

http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21685

Here is a dynosheet for a B16A Sir I (the 160hp ver) with high flow cat, DC headers, Apexi ws, and AEM Cai.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0204scc_civicengine *** Scroll down the page and Click the 3rd dynosheet located between the Intake and Header pics.

[AzCivic]

without forced induction theyre both slow

[cashizslick]

Yes, but one is much slower than the other . . . .

but yes, i too have come to the realization that the only way to have a honda that is also a monster, you need nawz or b00st.

[turbowhat_n_dat]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Yes, but one is much slower than the other . . . .

but yes, i too have come to the realization that the only way to have a honda that is also a monster, you need nawz or b00st.


I agree with this statement in one way, it is slower. However it starts out slower so what is the comparison? Might as well stayed stock on both and showed that.

Swap = $4k gaining 60hp B16a = 160whp

same on a D = $4k gaining about 130hp D16y8 = 210whp

[pdiggitydogg]

i dont know what place youre looking at where a b16 costs $4k...

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by pdiggitydogg
i dont know what place youre looking at where a b16 costs $4k...


. . . . . . . . . . . . well, if ur me lol




(not talkin about that)

[turbowhat_n_dat]

Its just numbers. Yeah, your right, that included a I/H/E in my figures, its still kinda steep, however w/ all installed it would be around that figure. I just kinda threw that out there in case someone wanted a to compare any B, sorry for the retardism.
I could also put a custom turbo kit on a D for like $1k and get that same hp so that was just a number also.

[AzCivic]

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=431917

[turbowhat_n_dat]

fuck yeah, thats what I'm talking about, give that guy props for tuning a D to kick ass numbers.

[sohc_vtec 2NR]

that's unbelieveable..... 16.5 with STOCK INTERNALS....:shocking:

[Honda_Tengoku]

okkk. Here is the final say to end all arguments here.
U can either turbo this anemic looking engine....
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzQ5NjgwNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
or u can go with this beast (minus the dirty valve cover of course)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMzgxNTI4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

[AzCivic]

i like a/c

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by AzCivic
i like a/c

hey man u can have a/c on an H22'd Civic. People have done it on H-T. It can be done. I was more joking than serious. Everyone has different ideas and tastes. I definately respect some D series builders (cuz I gave up a long time ago on that engine). I have seen some very fast D's. Definately faster than I thought they were capable of. As a matter of fact I saw an all-motor low 13 second D in a hatch the other day. Yes this car was a street car. Definately impressive for the D. Its just not for me man.

[AzCivic]

yeah you can do it and keep a/c but you have to start doing even more custom stuff.

has anyone found out how to keep a/c and powersteering w/ the h22 swap?

[Honda_Tengoku]

according to the people on H-T u can. I read about it I just wasnt really all that interested in it. It robs too much power for me :) It depends on the mounts u use. Also not many people know alot about the EK/EJ Civics. U see the thing is in the EK/EJ Civics the mounts are different and it mounts the engine in the bay differently than an EG Civic. In the EK/EJ they may even fit on stock locations with the HASPORT mounts, I dont know, I would have to look into that one. As far as EG Civics goes I know the HCP mounts actually mount the H22 farther back than the Hasport mounts. Hasports claim their mounts are engineered properly for axle placement. Although i havent heard anyone who has had any problems with the HCP mounts at all. I know it gives more clearance in the front using HCP mounts. I think HCP claims that u can have power steering and A/C with their mounts, dont quote me on that one (i never really looked into it). On the EG chassis with hasport mounts I know the A/C would have to be hooked up with custom brackets. The power steering from what I have heard will work in factory location. Hope I helped. This is something I never really researched all that much.

[Kool-Aid]

DO you guys think it would be useless to turbo a D15? I get a lot of "yes you can's" and "no you shouldnt's"...I've been contemplating an engine swap but if I don't have to then I won't...

[pdiggitydogg]

depends on what your expectations are
of course you CAN
it will really wake the car up and you will be very happy with it (at least for a while...depending on the kind of person you are)

D's are fine engines. If youre not looking for 300whp its fine.

[Kool-Aid]

What if I were looking to get 300whp?? Engine swap? I guess that's what I would end up doing after reading some of these posts...

[pdiggitydogg]

Ive seen that much out of a d series...but its a huge ordeal
gsr and h22 w/ turbo see 300 easy and ls and b16 can w/ a minor build

[Kool-Aid]

WHat's gsr and H22...are those the types of engines offered?

[pdiggitydogg]

gsr - b18c1 - mid-end integra engine
h22 - prelude engine

[Kool-Aid]

And those are pretty much the ones to get?

[95DX]

depends on what your looking for. Right now you have a 1.5L engine the gsr would give you a 1.8L and the H22 would give you a 2.2L (Im pretty sure thats right about the gsr/h22) and as the saying goes theres no replacement for displacement which basicly means the bigger the motor you have the more power you can make overall but it will end up costing you more in the end. No one way is best its all depending on what you want/"need"/are looking for as well as how much you want to spend/how much you have etc

[wal]

why not go b18c5?? ya should notice the power difference immedatly should ya not??

[pdiggitydogg]

IMO
the c5 is a waste of money

[Kool-Aid]

Why's it a waste of money? Little power for so much money?

[pdiggitydogg]

N/A:
For the cost of a c5 you could just get a gsr motor and then upgrade to 98 spec ctr pistons and cams and have equal or more whp (motor depending)....and still have a few hundred $ to play around with.

Turbo it just doesnt make sense to me since the compression is already quite high and in order for it to be more turbo friendly lower compression pistsons need to be dropped in...thats just a waste of it being an itr motor. (therms is going to yell at me if he sees this)

[Kool-Aid]

What cars naturally have c5's in it?

[pdiggitydogg]

integra type r (aka itr)

[Kool-Aid]

Oh...ok...Im just learning about the engine stuff...sorry for the questions...

[Honda_Tengoku]

Just want to put in my 2 cents....:cool: H22 man! I will never go back!!!!!

[pdiggitydogg]

Originally posted by Kool-Aid
Oh...ok...Im just learning about the engine stuff...sorry for the questions...

No worries...thats what we're all here for

[Kool-Aid]

Ok...here's what making me upset and embarrassed...I drove from Las Vegas to California to visit the peeps and everytime I drive up a hill...I have no horsepower and my car slows waaaaaayyyy down...now that's embarrassing...

[pdiggitydogg]

downshifting would help that...try 3rd
rpm's be damned

[Kool-Aid]

Ok...I'll try that next time...4th gear just wasn't cuttin it...

[95DX]

I know this might start another "war" but what would the best swap as far as na build/turbo/n2o Im thinking of swaping then going turbo &/or n2o but not sure at the molment(sp?) and was thinking what would be the best motor for all 3 options so when I decide I can go that way

[pdiggitydogg]

depends on how much money you want to spend

[Honda_Tengoku]

depends on how good u are with tools. Most people will say go with the B series. most likely a B18B. The reason why is the B18B can be found for a good price, it uses all honda mounts mounting into your car, and can be swapped easily. The B18B is good for N/A or forced induction. If u want to go N/A then u go LS VTEC. Its pretty indepth to do it right for N/A, but a built LS/VTEC can absolutely scream when built right. I have seem some very fast ones!! If u want to go forced induction well who cares about VTEC when your on boost. really. U can make very good power on an LS engine with boost. Another good thing about the B18B engine is they are good to about 300 WHP before parts start breaking! This would be most peoples reccomendation.
However if u are hardcore, can handle doing an H22 swap, the price, and an engine that sits 2 inches lower in the engine bay, and like lots of torque then the H series is for u. Right now the H22 is king for all motor. I dont care what all u little B series lovers say. U just cant beat the H22's! On boost, well they respond as well as any other engine with proper tunning. They however will only handle about 5-7 pounds of boost on stock internals. The 92-96 H22 engines are closed deck and can handle a bit more. They can roughly take about 275-300 WHP before parts start breaking. Now u say why boost an H22 when I can make 300 WHP with a B18? Well most people seem to forget torque. Torque is the most important figure for a street car IMO. That is why an H22'd 300 WHP Civic will destroy a 300 WHP B series Civic. It is not uncommon for a turbo'd H22 to make 30-50 ft pounds more torque than a B series. I have seen dyno graphs around 250 ft pounds of torque range at the wheels with H22'd Civics boosting about 7-9 pounds of boost.
The new option would be the new K series engines. They are going like wildfire and are the wave of the future. They are I think 80 pounds lighter than an H series and respond better to mods than an H series does. Definately hot stuff. The downfalls are they are very very expensive, and the aftermarket hasnt caught up yet so parts are very expensive.

[95DX]

the engines I was thinking of was the D16, B18, or H22, and what was $ for $ the "best deal" I would probably/most likely turbo later and seeing that Im in Cali would need to have as few hurddles(sp?) as possible for smog ie not swapping motors every 2 yrs just to pass

[Honda_Tengoku]

Originally posted by 95DX
the engines I was thinking of was the D16, B18, or H22, and what was $ for $ the "best deal" I would probably/most likely turbo later and seeing that Im in Cali would need to have as few hurddles(sp?) as possible for smog ie not swapping motors every 2 yrs just to pass

well I think that rules out the H22 for sure. The B series u most likely get away with it. I mean u can BS the smog people (they are morons anyways). If u want to go boost, my reccomendation is B18B on boost. The best budget boost build available IMO.