guns

[mt.biker]

Would someone explain to me, a Canadian why most Americans I know are all about guns and using them. I've never had to use a gun, though I've fired one more then enough to know how to hit a target.

Up here in Canada, people just dont have guns. Well the police have them and you can pick one up downtown for 100$ with a clip. But we just dont hear/talk about it as much as I'm hearing about in the US.

Please lets not start a flaming war and I dont mean it to come off like that, I would truly like to know because no one has been able to explain it to me in a manner other then "its my right!" We have the right to own guns too, but we dont. I wonder why that is? And does the American view on guns increase the number of gun related crimes/deaths in the US?

Lets try to keep this mature, if you dont have something to add, dont say anything at all.

[guywithastang]

it is really hard to explain see america is a country full of wusses and haters. the wusses dont like guns because they have the ability to kill things( but so does a fork, whatever) and all the haters like to use guns against others and each other. In America no one knows right a wrong for themselves. See some of us own guns for sport. I like to hunt and trap shoot. I am not going to go out and look for some one to kill, but that is what the wusses think I want to do. All gun controle will acomplish is keeping guns in the hands of police and criminals Totaly ignoreing the sportsman. I think guns should only be kept by sportsmen because american police are nothing but criminals in uniforms.


My .02

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by guywithastang
it is really hard to explain see america is a country full of wusses and haters. the wusses dont like guns because they have the ability to kill things( but so does a fork, whatever) and all the haters like to use guns against others and each other. In America no one knows right a wrong for themselves. See some of us own guns for sport. I like to hunt and trap shoot. I am not going to go out and look for some one to kill, but that is what the wusses think I want to do. All gun controle will acomplish is keeping guns in the hands of police and criminals Totaly ignoreing the sportsman. I think guns should only be kept by sportsmen because american police are nothing but criminals in uniforms.


My .02

i really think thats speaks to a higher issue then just guns. Sounds to me like there is a problem with people knowing right and wrong. There is gun control up here and you can still own a gun to hunt, what they've discouraged are people living in large cities from keeping their guns in the city. BUt rather encourage them to keep them stored outside the city (range or what not).

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Well, I own guns purely for the sport. I don't hunt, I definitely don't carry one around, but I really enjoy shooting for sport. I live in Oregon, where I can drive a few miles and be on a deserted mountain and find a nice, safe, place to shoot.

I support peoples' right to own guns. I think that issues of gun control trickle down to become issues of peoples' morals. If guns were outlawed, only the outlaws would have guns. Gun control only affects the honest, law abiding, citizens. Do you think that if the government all of a sudden banned guns that the criminals would go turn them in? No way.

I do think that adults need to be responsible and lock up their guns, etc. A little responsibility will go a long way in lessening the number of gun accidents.

What kind of gun control does Canada have in place? You say that they are perfectly legal, yet people just don't own them? I wouldn't be suprised at all if more people have one tucked away than you think.

[guywithastang]

exactly. guns are only an issue when used in the wrong way and banning them will only eliminate the guns that are not an issue!

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
What kind of gun control does Canada have in place? You say that they are perfectly legal, yet people just don't own them? I wouldn't be suprised at all if more people have one tucked away than you think.
Recently we started forcing people to register their fire arms. They had one year to do so, and in the first 6months of this program to reg up for free. Afterwards they had to pay $50 to register their guns. The program has been more costly then first expected but people are registering their guns.

No, in general Canadians dont own guns like Americans do. In the USA there are more guns present then people, I know for a fact its not like that up here. I'd probably say its because we are more closely related to Britian where its hard to own a gun in a city center, but if you're in the country side, owning/registering a gun is alot easier. We also have relatively good police, and crime is lower then in the US, though its starting to rise.

I see no problem in people owning guns, I just think that they are to easy to come by. When little kids start popping bullets in schools there is something seriously wrong with the gun set up.

In Toronto, with a population of 2.4 million people its really hard for someone like myself (I live 5min from downtown) to own a gun and keep it stored at my house. If I lived a few hours North of the city it woudl be easier. There is a longer waiting period, and stricter storage rules and if I was to transport the gun, the police would like to know just incase something goes wrong. It would be illegal for me to leave a gun (loaded or not) in my car, and I could serve serious jail time for it.

[pdiggitydogg]

i own several guns...my dad is a hunter and somehow I got forced into the whole thing (Its boring and stupid imho...)

the whole thing about guns is goes all the way back to the constitution and the bill or rights. because we were under the influence of war, we wanted the right to have guns for defense...now its basically pointless...but I really wouldnt want the govt to want to take them away (europe; where even the police dont get guns). Its our freedom to have them and thats about what it comes down to. Personally, knowing that I own several guns, including a very nice 12gauge, really never makes me worry that someone is going to invade my home...I mean its right there...just in case (god I sound like an activist lol)

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by guywithastang
exactly. guns are only an issue when used in the wrong way and banning them will only eliminate the guns that are not an issue! Exactly - since criminals dont use registered weapons, banning guns will leave law abiding citizens helpless in the event of a breakin or armed robbery.

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Exactly - since criminals dont use registered weapons, banning guns will leave law abiding citizens helpless in the event of a breakin or armed robbery.

this is not always the case though, as a gun you own could be stolen and used in a crime. Putting your hands in the air and saying gun control wont help to reduce gun related crimes/deaths is foolish. There are other places in teh world where crime isn't as high as in the US and alot of those places have gun control. Forgive me for thinking it might help...

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Rob,

Here in the U.S., we are forced to register guns also. The legal age for buying a rifle is 18, and a pistol is 21... at least in my state. In order to purchase a gun, you now have to go through background checks, etc. This is a forum of gun control.

You're stating that you know for a fact regarding the number of firearms legally owned, and I'm not doubting you, but let's see some proof to back that up.

There are other places in teh world where crime isn't as high as in the US and alot of those places have gun control. Forgive me for thinking it might help...

Forgive me for thinking it might help?... now that's a childish remark. You need to be open to both sides of the story, just like you requested of others participating in this arguement. It seems like many valid points have been brought up in this post. Gun control is an issue that most people will never see eye-to-eye on. I think a lot of it has to do with your background, how you were raised, etc.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by mt.biker
this is not always the case though, as a gun you own could be stolen and used in a crime. Putting your hands in the air and saying gun control wont help to reduce gun related crimes/deaths is foolish. There are other places in teh world where crime isn't as high as in the US and alot of those places have gun control. Forgive me for thinking it might help...
If a gun is stolen, then the owner of the gun was not being a responsible firearm owner.

If everybody had a gun, then the crime rate would decrease. Nobody wants to get shot - therefore, nobody would threaten anybody w/a gun if they thought the person they were threatening also had one (or anybody nearby).

[pimpinprelude]

""I think a lot of it has to do with your background, how you were raised, etc."" ""If everybody had a gun, then the crime rate would decrease."" tru tru. biker, its just whare you live, how you were raised....... things are diffrent up there...

[spoogenet]

Originally posted by cashizslick
If a gun is stolen, then the owner of the gun was not being a responsible firearm owner.

If everybody had a gun, then the crime rate would decrease. Nobody wants to get shot - therefore, nobody would threaten anybody w/a gun if they thought the person they were threatening also had one (or anybody nearby).

That's like saying you're an irresponsible car owner if your car gets stolen, that's not a valid argument to make. No matter what you to do protect your property there is always some way to circumvent it.

Banning guns would be about as effective as banning drugs. Drugs have been illegal for quite some time now and they're certainly not off the streets. That is not to say that gun control is important, because gun control is very important. There are a few things that must happen including enforcing the laws that already exist. Handguns being illegal would, however, most likely reduce the number of deaths to firearms in a year. Most of the gun related crimes are handguns, see #1 below for the reason. The harder it is to get a gun the less likely you are to end up with a passion crime, one where somebody is irate and in a rage and acts in a way they wouldn't normally act. Serial killers will still exist and have guns, organized crime will still exist and have guns, but passion crimes using firearms will reduce.

Some argue that people will merely switch to alternative weapons such as knives, bats, etc etc etc. While this argument holds some water there are two reasons people choose guns. 1) They are convenient. 2) They are effective. If you make guns illegal then #1 goes away. It's hard to stab someone without putting yourself at a much higher risk than shooting them. With that increased risk people are less likely to commit the crime. How many liquor stores do you think would be held up with a knife???? The owner would just bust out a sword and slice his melon. If guns aren't as easily accessible, their price would be higher. The higher price would mean the average street thug would have a harder time getting his hands on one......it's a spiraling effect.

The tradeoff is that the criminals with guns are empowered even more to break the law because the average citizen is less empowered to counter the threat. There's a county near Atlanta, GA where it's required for the male head of household to own a firearm, or at least it used to be required I'm not sure if it's been changed. Anyhow, that county had extremely low home burglary rates....

As for the situation in America it's extremely complex. There are lots of people who seem to think they need to own a gun simply because it's their right to own one. There are others who feel they must to protect themselves from the government, others who feel they need personal safety. Then there are people who are anti-gun or who just don't care to have one. There are lots of guns in Canada, I can assure you of that. You already mentioned out in the country, and there are lots of Canadians who live "out in the country" who have guns. Then again I see more people in the American country who have guns than cities. In the country guns are just part of life.

b

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by spoogenet
That's like saying you're an irresponsible car owner if your car gets stolen, that's not a valid argument to make.

Do you have the option of puting your car in a coded safe and keeping it hidden in your house? Did not think so.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by spoogenet
Handguns being illegal would, however, most likely reduce the number of deaths to firearms in a year. Most of the gun related crimes are handguns.
If handguns are illegal, then there would be no way to legally carry a gun for protection (this would almost abolish our "right to bear arms")

Originally posted by spoogenet
Serial killers will still exist and have guns, organized crime will still exist and have guns.

Ok, so if these guys have guns and are intending to harm you, wouldn't you also want one?

Originally posted by spoogenet
The tradeoff is that the criminals with guns are empowered even more to break the law because the average citizen is less empowered to counter the threat. There's a county near Atlanta, GA where it's required for the male head of household to own a firearm, or at least it used to be required I'm not sure if it's been changed. Anyhow, that county had extremely low home burglary rates....

You've just completely contradicted yourself. If you are the head of the household, what is easier to hide from your kids, a handgun or a rifle?

If guns can statistically prevent crime, why make them illegal?

[pimpinprelude]

cashizslick, right on bro......

[Zybach]

Guns are like cars. Some people get a high driving cars some people get a high from shooting guns. Most my friends have guns and most of them hunt. Others just have them to shoot at whatever on their farms. If you think about it, having a gun is as arbitrary as having a painting or any other piece of art.

[TeriyakiBroccoli]

you guys also have to remember the history that the U.S. has had.. revolutionary war ring a bell? Hell, it was our second amendment right.. they've been a part of us, and will always be.

[Kyle]

Do you think every American has a gun Rob?...
The only thing i've shot was a bb gun...and i shot targets and stuff...never killed and animal...nor do i plan to kill anything in my life time...
i don't have a gun now nor will i ever...I just don't see why you try to critisize americans for using their right to own arms...I'm sure plenty of canadians also own guns...you're just too blind to see it

[Daviso27]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Would someone explain to me, a Canadian why most Americans I know are all about guns and using them...

Go rent (or download) the movie "Bowling for Columbine" it explains a'hoe lot about Americans and guns.

For me, it is the whole Police response time...Face it, they move fast for some things, but not all...

Thats why the twins come out..."Stutta'in Stanley, and Silent Bob"

Shot's out to Moses!!!

http://www.camineet.net/ps2cast/heston.jpg

[VR4_Craver]

Like pdiggity said. I own a few nice guns including A 12guage, 9mm rifle, .22, and a duoble barrel. Now just cause i own these means i am gonna go ape shit and climb a bell tower nor shoot up my school. I like to shoot guns all kinds and in situations such as hunting, trap, or target. These are locked in a cabinet of steel. I know when i get older i will keep guns in the house but i will also teach my children that grabbing a gun does not make you the bigger man or any better. I will teach them to hunt and or trap shoot with me and that is the extent of the guns use of the family. I do agree that it should be harder to get a gun. I do. In Indiana you have to be 18 to buy a rifle but 21 to buy any kind of ammo. But i dont think its fair that if guns get banned. Just because they are wrong and take them away not everyone will get rid of them. If you want to stop the problem. You stop productoin not punish ones that have them. And after the halt in production destroy the ones that are confinscated. Have a goverement building that builds/designs the guns that are needed for law and military use.

[spoogenet]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Do you have the option of puting your car in a coded safe and keeping it hidden in your house? Did not think so.

So is the bank irresponsible when it gets broken into? Quite frankly I consider a bank's safe much more difficult to get into than a coded safe at home. The only surefire way to guarantee somebody doesn't find a gun in your house is to not have one. If there's no gun there, there's no gun to be stolen. No matter what you do to protect it and how responsible you are someone can still find a way to steal it. I grant you that most guns that are stolen probably aren't locked away very well, however I'm merely pointing out that your blanket application of irresponsibility is inappropriate and wrong.

If handguns are illegal, then there would be no way to legally carry a gun for protection (this would almost abolish our "right to bear arms")

The "right to bear arms" does not specifically state the "right to carry a handgun" nor does it mention carrying concealed arms. Shotguns, rifles, etc. aren't handguns. You could still bear arms without a handgun. And "there would be no way to legally carry a gun for protection"....have you never heard of anything other than handguns? You are aware that there are other guns out there....right? If all handguns were off the streets I think we'd all be safer. Now if you read my entire post you'd realize there are tradeoffs to this and it's extermely unlikely that you'd get all handguns off the streets.....go back and actually read the post and you'll see that this was covered....


Ok, so if these guys have guns and are intending to harm you, wouldn't you also want one?

If you go back and read my entire post I think you'll realize that I'm not exactly arguing that we should ban guns.....would you feel safer if everybody carried a gun on the street?

You've just completely contradicted yourself. If you are the head of the household, what is easier to hide from your kids, a handgun or a rifle?

If guns can statistically prevent crime, why make them illegal?

Whoah, let's back up a little bit. I provided some information showing consequences and benefits of banning guns. I'll put it in simpler English for you.

Benefits to banning handguns: total number of deaths to firearms would go down. Good chances total number of deaths would go down assuming other sources of death hold constant.

Consequences to banning handguns: guns still won't be off the streets, criminals will be more empowered.

The above benefits and consequences would vary if we're talking about banning all guns.

Now what I was saying in the quoted paragraph is related to the aforementioned consequence. I then provided an example where the exact opposite of illegalizing guns happened and the results from that. Bear in mind that this was only for home burglaries, I'm not sure what other effects it had on crimes/deaths in the county. Please tell me how that's a contradiction of myself. I didn't say anything about the households owning handguns and hiding things from kids. Hukt no fonix werkt four me.

b

edit: fixed formatting

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by spoogenet
The only surefire way to guarantee somebody doesn't find a gun in your house is to not have one. If there's no gun there, there's no gun to be stolen. No matter what you do to protect it and how responsible you are someone can still find a way to steal it. I grant you that most guns that are stolen probably aren't locked away very well, however I'm merely pointing out that your blanket application of irresponsibility is inappropriate and wrong.
In order to steal a gun that is locked in a high-quality gun-safe, you would need the following things. A blow-torch, a lot of time (the lock on my dad's gunsafe is strong/impossible to pick - ive tried to get my BB gun back numerous times-hehehe-there is no way to break into that thing), and privacy (using a blow-torch attracts unwanted attention/what if the owner of the gun or his neighbors find you?).
Now, you tell me who is going to be able to break into that gun-safe to "steal" a pistol/rifle/shotgun (a 5 year old kid?). I dont think a gun wanting crook is going to do that when he could easily buy a gun on the street.
With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility - Owning a gun entails responisbility - if you own a gun, you should act in a responsible manner (aka locking it up).
Originally posted by spoogenet
The only surefire way to guarantee somebody doesn't find a gun in your house is to not have one.
This is also a surefire way to be defenseless if somebody with a gun enters your house w/the intent of harming your family.


Originally posted by spoogenet
The only surefire way to guarantee somebody doesn't find a gun in your house is to not have one.
The "right to bear arms" does not specifically state the "right to carry a handgun" nor does it mention carrying concealed arms. Shotguns, rifles, etc. aren't handguns. You could still bear arms without a handgun.
Ok, an armed robber enters your house. Obviously, you are completely unprepaired for this.
**Now tell me what is easier to fire from a close-quarters situation - a .45magnum or a 30 odd 6 Rifle (assuming you know a little about guns)?
**You encounter the robber in your hallway - while you start to sholder your huge rifle, he fires his 9mm from the hip and puts you down. - Why do you think POLICE have handguns? Obviously, a handgun is much much better for personal protection since it is more versitile. If handguns are illegal, then legitamate gun owners will be at a disadvantage when a robber w/handgun enters their house.


Originally posted by spoogenet
"there would be no way to legally carry a gun for protection"....have you never heard of anything other than handguns? You are aware that there are other guns out there....right?


Lets think for a second of what would happen if you tried to carry a rifle/shotgun around for personal protection.

Have you any idea how much negative attention you would recieve if you walked around at the mall w/a large gun on your sholder?

Also - Criminals would still be able to obtain handguns illegaly, and would carry them in a conceled fassion - your solution to the problem would only put law abiding people's lives in jeprody.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by spoogenet

would you feel safer if everybody carried a gun on the street?

Yes i would

I believe the better question is, "Would you threaten somebody with a gun if you thought they had one?"

Would you walk into a crowded bank with a gun if all the customers and bank employees also had guns?

Let me answer these questions for you and any other normal peroson: NO!

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Let me answer these questions for you and any other normal peroson: NO!

People who rob banks, kill people and so on aren't normal so your theory is flawed.

[msvtec14]

Originally posted by mt.biker
People who rob banks, kill people and so on aren't normal so your theory is flawed.

Yeah but Rob, the point of robbing a bank is to walk away with the money. Not to get shot up and die. If the people that worked in the bank all had guns, the robbers gun would not have nearly as much power as it would if no one in the bank had a gun. And I work for a bank. I have for 2 years. There's been some robberies in our branches and I believe that there was one shooting and it was not fatal. The tellers are trained on what to do in that situation. I don't feel that his theory is flawed.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by msvtec14
The point of robbing a bank is to walk away with the money. Not to get shot up and die.

Exactly. There is no point in robbing anybody if you will get shot and die. Even if you do get away, you will have to use the money for medical bills.

The point of a robbery is to put yourself ahead at someone else's expence. If you get shot and die or get caught, how far ahead are you??

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by mt.biker
People who rob banks, kill people and so on aren't normal so your theory is flawed.

Ok, so your telling me that if 100% of bank robbers were shot while robbing a bank, bank robberies would not decrease or cease all together?
If most bank robbers were shot while robbing banks, it would send a message to "would-be-bank-robbers".

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by mt.biker
People who rob banks, kill people and so on aren't normal so your theory is flawed.

Actually, this brings me back to my original point. They aren't normal, I agree. They will still have guns, even if they are made illegal for the rest of us.

[Racing Rice]

Let me tell you a little about bank robbery.

I work at a bank. We have a branch in a bad neighborhood, that has been robbed at gun point. Do you know what the solution was to stop the bank from getting robbed. An Armed Guard, why would they do this? Because like what was stated earlier. People dont rob banks to die, they rob banks for the money.

A theif will usually target the easiest crime. Would the theif rob an armed person before an unarmed person, no way! The more work that has to go into the job the more chance of failure.

There is no great answer for guns. Its something that has to be dealt with like drugs. You do your best to keep them out of criminals hands. "For every actions there is an opposite reaction." This holds true for pretty much everything.

Rob as for Canada differing from US.. There is roughly 9 times more people in the US then there is in Canada. Which means, more crime, more this, more that.. More everything. Lets get that many people in Canada and see what happens. :rolleyes:

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
A theif will usually target the easiest crime. Would the theif rob an armed person before an unarmed person, no way! The more work that has to go into the job the more chance of failure.

:yes: :yes: :yes:

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Rob as for Canada differing from US.. There is roughly 9 times more people in the US then there is in Canada. Which means, more crime, more this, more that.. More everything. Lets get that many people in Canada and see what happens. :rolleyes:
crime rates are based per capita, so its a ratio of crime to population, the US is still higher, so is gun related deaths.

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by mt.biker
crime rates are based per capita, so its a ratio of crime to population, the US is still higher, so is gun related deaths.

What do statistics have to do with anything.. if 1000 people go into Canada, and 999 of them are criminals crime would increase by a higher percentage then it would if 1000 people went into Canada and 50 of those people were in Canada..

See what Im saying. Plus the US seems to have a bigger problem with illegal immagrants then Canada does. I have nothing against people from Mexico or Cuba or anyother nationality, so let not make this a racial thing. What Im trying to say is a lot of these immigrants resort to crime for money since a lot of them cant "legally" work. Do you see where Im going with this?

[spoogenet]

Originally posted by cashizslick
In order to steal a gun that is locked in a high-quality gun-safe, you would need the following things. A blow-torch, a lot of time (the lock on my dad's gunsafe is strong/impossible to pick - ive tried to get my BB gun back numerous times-hehehe-there is no way to break into that thing), and privacy (using a blow-torch attracts unwanted attention/what if the owner of the gun or his neighbors find you?).
Now, you tell me who is going to be able to break into that gun-safe to "steal" a pistol/rifle/shotgun (a 5 year old kid?). I dont think a gun wanting crook is going to do that when he could easily buy a gun on the street.
With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility - Owning a gun entails responisbility - if you own a gun, you should act in a responsible manner (aka locking it up).


*ahem* Go back and read my posts. You do know how to read, don't you? I didn't say it's easy, I said it's possible. I'm just saying that a responsible owner can STILL HAVE HIS GUN STOLEN! It's a fact, deal with it. Sure locking it up is a good idea.....


This is also a surefire way to be defenseless if somebody with a gun enters your house w/the intent of harming your family


And unlocking your gun from your safe is a good way to get shot in the process or otherwise held up.

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pd051200e.html


Ok, an armed robber enters your house. Obviously, you are completely unprepaired for this.
**Now tell me what is easier to fire from a close-quarters situation - a .45magnum or a 30 odd 6 Rifle (assuming you know a little about guns)?
**You encounter the robber in your hallway - while you start to sholder your huge rifle, he fires his 9mm from the hip and puts you down. - Why do you think POLICE have handguns? Obviously, a handgun is much much better for personal protection since it is more versitile. If handguns are illegal, then legitamate gun owners will be at a disadvantage when a robber w/handgun enters their house.


If you knew anything about guns you'd know there's nothing odd about a 30 OUGHT 6, 30.06 or 30-06. And there are far better weapons for personal protection in the home than a handgun. Ever wonder why SWAT teams don't use handguns very often? The only reason police use handguns is because they're light and compact...translation: they are easy to carry on a regular basis. They are NOT the perfect solution for personal protection. The criminals like handguns for very similar reasons, although the ease of concealment is a big one...but that's related to size, in case you don't see the link.

Seriously dude, who fires a gun from their hips? Maybe you've seen one too many Westerns. But don't you worry, there are plenty of studies illustrating that gun ownership in the home reduces the number of burglaries. Bear in mind that 13% of burglaries are considered "hot", in other words when somebody is home. Only the "hot" burglaries are reduced, actually....because if you're not home, well, I feel compelled to point out the obvious by stating that if you're not home you won't be able to use your nifty .45 magnum on the robber. The 13% is for US, it's 50% for UK where the average Joe doesn't have any firearm.

If handguns are illegal, then legitamate gun owners will be at a disadvantage when a robber w/handgun enters their house.


I choose to further isolate this statement because.....drumroll please....I'VE ALREADY SAID THE SAME THING! In fact I've said it a couple of times, if not more. Seriously, do you actually read what people write or do you just scan for keywords and write a spirited reply?


Lets think for a second of what would happen if you tried to carry a rifle/shotgun around for personal protection.

Have you any idea how much negative attention you would recieve if you walked around at the mall w/a large gun on your sholder?

Also - Criminals would still be able to obtain handguns illegaly, and would carry them in a conceled fassion - your solution to the problem would only put law abiding people's lives in jeprody.

Do you feel the need for personal protection on the streets? Did I say that people should carry the guns on their person? No. How many people currently carry guns on their person for personal protection?

And it's not MY solution to the problem, please please do learn how to read, it could behoove you someday. For the second time, search for "drugs" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

See carrying guns is just like driving.....you could let everybody do it but most of them won't be any good at it.

But really, read what I'm saying and try to understand it. It seems to me that you are making heated statements about things that basically agree with the gist of what I'm saying.

Fact: There is evidence on both sides of the gun control issue that point to one side being better than the other. In case you haven't noticed this yet....there is usually evidence on both sides of every issue that does the same. If I point out evidence that is for or against gun control, take it as just that.

b

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by spoogenet
It seems to me that you are making heated statements about things that basically agree with the gist of what I'm saying.
I didnt really understand where you were coming from on your earlier posts - not that i didnt read them.

--jeeze, to think i mistook a Texan for being against gun control?!?!?!?! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:



*All in good fun.

[Violent Apathy]

Watch Bowling For Columbine, think it's out on video by now.

[pimpinprelude]

SWAT uses mp5 s....

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by pimpinprelude
SWAT uses mp5 s....


True, i'd rather have an MP5 than a handgun. too bad their illegal lol.

[Shot 2 Hel]

^^^ I wonder why

[Ty's Si]

I didn't bother reading any of the posts after the initial question, but my response would be that, intuitively, people in America sense that their basic rights are being incrementally taken away, or infringed upon, over the course of time.

Year after year, the legislative branch (whether at the local, state or national level) creates and implements new laws under the guise of "protecting" people from others. The problem is that these laws spill over into the grey areas of indvidual rights.

The second ammendment is about as cut and dried as you can get in regard to personal freedoms, and personally, I feel that people are latching onto it as a last resort as their rights are gradually being eliminated.

Call it a moral victory, if you will. Once people lose the right to bear arms, the U.S. becomes a dictatorship, no better than those that existed before our time.

Some people simply see beyond the here and now.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by Ty's Si
Call it a moral victory, if you will. Once people lose the right to bear arms, the U.S. becomes a dictatorship, no better than those that existed before our time.


I definately agree. Once we as citizens loose the right to bear arms (or any type of arm besides a machine gun/rocket launcher) we will be suceptible to the govt's every whim.
The one thing all govt's fear is an armed poplulace. The reason im so agianst handguns being banned (if they ever were to be) is that we as people would no longer have the right to carry a gun for personal safety.
My underlying point with the whole handgun thing spoognet is that if handguns go, what will follow - rifles and then finnaly shotguns? Im sure a person could find a similar argument for the abolition of high powered rifles if they can also justify an argument against handguns.

[spoogenet]

Originally posted by Ty's Si
I didn't bother reading any of the posts after the initial question, but my response would be that, intuitively, people in America sense that their basic rights are being incrementally taken away, or infringed upon, over the course of time.

Year after year, the legislative branch (whether at the local, state or national level) creates and implements new laws under the guise of "protecting" people from others. The problem is that these laws spill over into the grey areas of indvidual rights.

The second ammendment is about as cut and dried as you can get in regard to personal freedoms, and personally, I feel that people are latching onto it as a last resort as their rights are gradually being eliminated.

Call it a moral victory, if you will. Once people lose the right to bear arms, the U.S. becomes a dictatorship, no better than those that existed before our time.

Some people simply see beyond the here and now.

And then in waltz Bush and his little posse of folks such as Ashcroft and ram through the Patriot Act and other things....joy.

Cashizslick: There's an extra 'e' in spoogenet. :|

For the record, I don't want handguns banned but I've already stated why I think it's a bad idea many times over. I'll spell it out one last time just for fun.....if you ban handguns, they won't be off the streets.....so what's the point of banning them in the first place? Ooh, ooh, I know the answer.....there isn't one!

If we could guarnatee that no handguns were in the US, period, then I think we'd all be safer. That is, of course, assuming the government doesn't do anything stupid.....but bear in mind that the people could theoretically elect Congressmen/women who would reverse the laws that are chipping away at your personal freedoms.......but that's an entirely different subject.

And one last thing, don't acuse me of being a Texan. :no:

b

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Rob as for Canada differing from US.. There is roughly 9 times more people in the US then there is in Canada. Which means, more crime, more this, more that.. More everything. Lets get that many people in Canada and see what happens.

Gun control worked in Canada. The mean-per-capita population density in Canada is similar to the US. Compare Seattle and Vancouver - similar populations, density, economics, racial breakdown, climate, etc. Even crime rates are about the same. But in Seattle more people (criminals and victims both) die because guns are more commonly involved in that crime.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Like any good issue, gun control has strong arguments on both sides. I'm a non-gun-owning Texan and am in favor of stronger gun control in the states. I don't have a problem with not being allowed to own a gun because (1) I don't need it to defend against indians and bears, (2) if someone breaks into my home to steal my TV, I don't think I have the moral right to kill them and (3) I'm not a member of a well-regulated militia.

Oh, and I drive like a maniac, so I'd rather some pissed-off redneck not shoot at me when I cut them off.

[Ty's Si]

Originally posted by spoogenet
And then in waltz Bush and his little posse of folks such as Ashcroft and ram through the Patriot Act and other things....joy.


You help support my point then.

The Patriot Act was drafted under the guise of helping the government "protect" its citizens. However its inherent power is too broad, encroaching upon certain rights to privacy, among others. Passed in haste in response to 9/11, YOUR (collective your) representatives followed blindly under the guise of it being a bill protecting "homeland security," when in fact it allows the goverment to monitor you (I smell dictatorship-like activity). It's bills like these that converge on that grey area of personal freedoms I spoke of in my earlier post; that balance between our rights to privacy, the right to bear arms, etc.

People, although they may not articulate their concerns, realize that bills such as the Patriot Act compromise and infringe upon their rights as the goverment grants itself increasing power over its citizens. So in response, people look toward the Second Amendment as something that is guaranteed and are adament about keeping it that way.

I took no sides in this discussion. I only offered my opinion as to why some people are so staunch about keeping the right to bear arms in the hands of the people.

BTW, Bush and his administration has the most power in the history of the country in comparison to any other sitting president. Keep electing the people who support him and you (collective term again) will one day come to realize that you have no more rights, nor any leverage to do anything about it. Pick your leaders wisely and register to vote damnit.

[AJ1978TA]

I've skimmed all 3 pages, and now it's time for me to own all of the shithead liberals here.......................Let me begin with facts.

There are about 250 million guns in this country, and that's an estimate. Almost as many guns as there are people. If you tried to ban them, you wouldn't get them all, as we don't even know how many we have. About 2-4 million come into the states every year, and about 2+ million are produced. There are about 80 million gun owners, and about 40 million handgun owners. These are rough figures off the top of my head, but they are very close. The number of times guns kill people in a CRIME are far less than the number of documented defensive gun useages (we're looking at around 2 million defense cases vs 10,000 murders). Many liberals try to skew numbers when they say that "guns kill" and try to lump suicides and accidents with murders to try to make them more evil looking.........When it comes to handguns and children, bath water, electricity, and poison are FAR more dangerous to a baby than a handgun. It comes down to the PARENTS in terms of how safe the kid is. I for one value personal responsibility, a classical conservative value. If you believe in collective rights and responsibility, you are a scumbag liberal who wants to undermine the basic principles of this great country.


The majority of crimes committed are by repeat felons, meaning they couldn't get their hands on a gun legally if they wanted to. Keeping guns locked up is a personal responsibility, and not a good reason to ban them because a small number of them get stolen. Some liberals claim that having a gun makes you more succeptable to getting killed, like the gun being stolen, taken from you in a fight, etc etc. This is BS. Most times the guns are stolen when someone isn't home, and most of the time the gun isn't taken from the victim. Look at Gary Kleck's early 90s research on guns, concealed carry and decrease in crime, and other great statistics. He won a criminology award. He proved how, over time, Concealed Carry legislation has successfully reduced crime rates, and has compared it to similar cities with statistical relevance.

Other things to consider:

An armed society is a polite society. Do you know anyone who has a concealed handgun? They know the laws better than you do, and know that us gun owners have everything stacked against them. We cannot brandish a firearm in public or take it out unless someone's life is endangered. Failure to do so gets you an assault charge with a deadly weapon. We can't even fire on an intruder unless our lives are in danger. Every gun owner, most of them RESPONSIBLE looking at the low rates of crime among us, must avoid conflict in public at all costs, and thus has to keep one's calm more often. When you carry a gun, you carry a responsibility. Contrary to the media and news reports you hear, most of us are probably better citizens than you are. :yes:

Some argue that Europe has lower crime rates because they don't allow guns. BULLSHIT.
1. The overall crime rate is LOWER IN GENERAL, lower than non gun related crimes here in America. It is NOT the gun's fault, but society. A good essay was written on this in a book, "Guns: A Reader", a collection of readings pro and con about guns in America. A violent society will always have more crime.........
2. Take a look at Switzerland. One of the lowest crime rates in the WORLD. What is their gun poilcy? MANDATORY GUN OWNERSHIP. ALL HOUSEHOLDS NEED TO MAINTAIN AT LEAST 1 RIFLE IN WORKING ORDER. People buy direct from the military. THAT, my son, is HOMELAND DEFENSE. It is a long tradtion in their country and a part of homeland security. I am not joking. Once again, the societal controls dictate how a society acts.


Look here in our own country. LA has the shittiest gun laws ever, it's impossible to get a handgun. Yet, crime is out of control, same in D.C., also one of America's biggest shitholes. In VT, we have open carry, meaning you can walk into town with a gun in the open, and you just need to be of age to get a gun, no real concealed permit necessary. Yes, the 2 environments are totally different, but as the gun controls get stricter, they work less and less.


I dobut anyone read all, or any of this. This is what I've got off the top of my head. Pardon if I missed anything. :cool:


Links to my guns:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/p6f0289ba579dd1e00532ca266ae953d9/fc4e02be.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid60/p66f15be553045c8b7d43350a9e8ff932/fc4e02c1.jpg

Norinco 982 Home defense, and an SKS. :yes:




EDIT: WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T TAKE ANYTHING FROM BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE SERIOUSLY. MOORE IS A FAT **** WITH AN AGENDA. Basically, from one short cartoon preview I saw, he labelled many gun owners as KKK, linking them to fearing black people, then arming up. God only knows what other shit is in that movie. :rolleyes:

[AJ1978TA]

Originally posted by Mushroom
Gun control worked in Canada.
I don't have a problem with not being allowed to own a gun because (1) I don't need it to defend against indians and bears, (2) if someone breaks into my home to steal my TV, I don't think I have the moral right to kill them and (3) I'm not a member of a well-regulated militia.

Oh, and I drive like a maniac, so I'd rather some pissed-off redneck not shoot at me when I cut them off.

Gun control does NOT work in Canada. Crime has skyrocketed since stronger legislation has passed. The same has happened in Australia, and England.


Next, I don't care if you don't need a gun. That isn't a point, so don't argue it. BTW, you don't have a right to shoot an intruder just because. Get your shit straight. Next, don't think that just because we allow guns in this country, you will get shot by a "redneck" in a dispute. Random fact of the day: In 1995, out of the few hundred thousand handgun owners in Florida, about 3 people got killed by a handgun in a traffic dispute. And I don't think they were all crimes either, but rather a defense. If you don't want a handgun for protection, fine, but don't give bullshit reasons and expect others to think guns are only for "Indians and Bears", and "being in a milita". :rolleyes:

[spoogenet]

For those against gun control, here's a funny article.

http://www.discerningtoday.org/members/Digest/2000Digest/February/Gun%20Control%20Doesn't%20Work.htm

The first paragraph is my favorite. :yes:

Anyone familiar with statistical analysis knows that statistics can be twisted to say almost anything. Take for example the number of deaths caused by medical mishaps: 120,000 per year in the U.S. which has approximately 700,000 physicians. That’s .171 deaths per doctor each year. Compare that with the number of gun owners, which is around 80,000,000, with 1,500 accidental gun deaths each year. That means that the number of accidental, gun related deaths each year per gun owner is .0000188. Nevertheless it would be ludicrous to say that doctors are 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. The comparison between gun owners and physicians just makes no sense. So let’s look at some statistics that really that do make sense.

Time to ban doctors....

edit: link didn't want to work, so made it just text.

Added following information:

Comparisons of any type of one country to another are very difficult. We can't fairly compare the US to any other country for issues such as gun control, education, drinking age, etc. Those issues are intertwined with our society and culture, both of which vary greatly from any other country.

b

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by AJ1978TA
I dobut anyone read all, or any of this. This is what I've got off the top of my head. Pardon if I missed anything. :cool:

I read it - i completely agree with everything you said.

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by cashizslick
I read it - i completely agree with everything you said.


:yes: