war has started...

[mt.biker]

Check cnn at 10.15pm EST where bush will tell the world that america has started a war in Iraq.

Stay safe down there my american buddies...

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

I just saw the news alert. I wish the soldiers the best of luck. My friend's sister is over there right now :no:

[cashizslick]

Yeah, my friend is stationed in S.Korea right now, i hope all goes well.

[ebpda9]

i hope it all goes well for the soldiers

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

It looks like it might not be the start of the all out war yet. From what I heard on the news, it was a specific bombing @ a specific target. Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait for Bush's speach.

[Civic98]

yea i'm watchin CNN right now waiting for Bush's speech.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

A short and concise speech. He got his point across though, and confirmed the war is beginning.

[HondaTypeJ]

It has started...I have my calling.

[cashizslick]

Bush is doing a good job, no doubt about it.

[cashizslick]

If anybody is not watching CNN, they should be.

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by cashizslick
If anybody is not watching CNN, they should be.

it's kind of hard watching CNN and HST at the same time :paranoid:

[cashizslick]

Well, take your pick.

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by HondaTypeJ
It has started...I have my calling.

make sure you know what you're doing before you sign up...

[ShEaNy]

lol......i wont agree bush is doing a good job..hes doing what he wants to do...and thats about it.....sorry..ill just kept outa this...i just dont really like him....i hope all americans are safe though..good luck...

[JTsn2Bfst]

I think we're doing the right thing. I also think Bush is doing what he wants to do, but all I can say about that is -IT'S ABOUT F--KING TIME.:yes: Sadam is a threat that the world has no need for.- This is an opinion of Jarron's emergency broadcast station, I repeat this is an opinion.

[Duckydos]

Anti-War protestor gets his becomings:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54702-2003Mar19.html

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Originally posted by Duckydos
Anti-War protestor gets his becomings:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54702-2003Mar19.html

Hmm that's a strange story.

[ChrisCantSkate]

im not signing up for the washington post.... whats the story about?


an i think you all know my stand on this. i want to kee this thread @ hoping our troops and ourselves stay safe, not debate bushes policiys

[CD5Passion]

Anyone notice how we go to war in Iraq whenever a Bush is in office?..Im not a big Bush fan, but I wish the best of luck and health to all the soldiers out there, they all have the guts to do what I cannot..well put me behind a sniper rifle and I'd be ok with that, I would goldplate a round for you Hussien, muah:rambo:

[SolPol]

Bush is a moron.

That said, stay safe and come home soon to all the troops out there.

[Racing Rice]

Bush is doing what needs to be done.. That is get Saddam the hell out of here.. He is serious trouble..

We could all sit on our hands and wait for the damn French and Germans, but lets not forget that they did that for Hitler.. Gave him time and let him grow and strengthen, instead of going after him early. Whether everyone likes it or not, this is bound to happen sooner or later. Id rather it be sooner then later.:rolleyes:

[SolPol]

How about we go after the country that could actually do something to us? Huh? North Korea anyone?

And why is it that I haven't heard Bush or anyone mention Osama in what seems like forever?

Oh, because he has to take care of Dad's mistake first. :bs:

[Racing Rice]

Actually this goes a lot deeper then his dad.. This is a Holy War, I dont really want to go into deep conversation about this. But its related to the Bible. Saddam is claiming he is the Anti-Christ (The Bible states that Satan sits on the thrown in the Middle East (I cant remember the town right now.) Believe me if you like, if not thats fine to. I dont want to turn this into another Christian/Anti-Christian discussion again.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
lol......i wont agree bush is doing a good job..hes doing what he wants to do...and thats about it.....sorry..ill just kept outa this...i just dont really like him....i hope all americans are safe though..good luck...

Its all good, we each are entitled to our own opinions.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by SolPol
How about we go after the country that could actually do something to us? Huh? North Korea anyone?

And why is it that I haven't heard Bush or anyone mention Osama in what seems like forever?

Oh, because he has to take care of Dad's mistake first. :bs:

IF you know your history, we have an armistace signed with N.Korea - we cant just go break that because it makes our nation look like liars [arn't we though?]

[ShEaNy]

lol ya looks like it i guess....man the states Gave IRaq those weapons years ago...hmmmm...not to smart now it seems....Its all about the oil in bushs eyes in the end....he could prolly care less about anti christ or whatever....its all about 'Peace' then he sees $ on the side...isnt that the world runs?..and im sure the states are worried about N korea....but they dont SEEM like to big of a threat...(i could be wrong) Racing ur going to have to explain this christ thing..please..cause i just think its peace and/or oil....

[Whiteclipse99]

I didn't feel like starting a whole new thread for this pic, so I'm just going to put it in this one and I thought it fit in well. I received this picture in an email......

[ShEaNy]

LOL^^ damn right....guy should shit on it too..:yes: :bandit: ;)

[firstgeardude]

well i was up late last night watchin CNN, now this mournin i heard that perhaps they killed Saddam in the bombing raid.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
....Its all about the oil in bushs eyes in the end....he could prolly care less about anti christ or whatever....its all about 'Peace' then he sees $ on the side...isnt that the world runs?..and im sure the states are worried about N korea....but they dont SEEM like to big of a threat...(i could be wrong) Racing ur going to have to explain this christ thing..please..cause i just think its peace and/or oil....

As a country, America gets the majority of its oil from Canada - I guess we should attack them if this is all about the oil [either that or drill for the oil in Alaska - wouldnt that be cheeper than starting a war and ruining the image of the US in the eyes of the world??] just a thought

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by firstgeardude
well i was up late last night watchin CNN, now this mournin i heard that perhaps they killed Saddam in the bombing raid.

That would be cool, but i really dont think it is likely - where did you hear that?

[firstgeardude]

Originally posted by cashizslick
That would be cool, but i really dont think it is likely - where did you hear that?

on many news channels earlier on in the day

[ebpda9]

saddam has the weapons, and he is a threat (and i'm not talking out of my ass, but i won't say more.) and guys you haven't lived under a tirany or comunism too see what it's like. as much as i hate bush i think he is doing the right thing now

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by firstgeardude
well i was up late last night watchin CNN, now this mournin i heard that perhaps they killed Saddam in the bombing raid.



i bet the real saddam shady is hiding in a cave or in an underground bunker. I've heard he has so many clones

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by firstgeardude
on many news channels earlier on in the day

Yeah, i just read the story on MSNBC, it says that it may be a double of Saddam - i doubt he is dead, probably just faking it.

[SolPol]

Originally posted by cashizslick
IF you know your history, we have an armistace signed with N.Korea - we cant just go break that because it makes our nation look like liars [arn't we though?]

Yeah, like that ABM treaty that Bush was so worried about not breaking too right? That's not an excuse.

[SolPol]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Actually this goes a lot deeper then his dad.. This is a Holy War, I dont really want to go into deep conversation about this. But its related to the Bible. Saddam is claiming he is the Anti-Christ (The Bible states that Satan sits on the thrown in the Middle East (I cant remember the town right now.) Believe me if you like, if not thats fine to. I dont want to turn this into another Christian/Anti-Christian discussion again.

Saddam himself claimed that he was the Anti Christ? When? Where?

[ShEaNy]

oil ANd peace i said...would be nice to have both...Alberta has freaking oil...but thats the canadian government for u....never underestimate the stupidity of a politician...i think bush thinks its great...Hey ill kill Saddam..no more threat Plus take over the oil....it seems nice...hope he does...:paranoid: as long as i dont hear a boom go off outside my house lol

[Racing Rice]

Sheany,

Its really kinda profetic. The bible, I think its the book of Revalations goes into detail of it.

The Bible says Satan sits on the Thrown in Babylon. Iraq is actually Babylon when the bible was written.

Saddam actually means rebellion.

Im sorry I cant remember all the details right off the top of my head, and Im at work.

But here are some other things to make you think. Im taking you in a little different direction and I appoligize for that, because these arent really from the bible, I think these are from Nostradomous. I just thought they were interesting..

The Antichrist will be educated in Egypt.

Saddam was educated in Cairo, under the wing of Nassar.

The Antichrist will study and emulate Hitler and his techniques.
Saddam studies and emulates Stalin.

He has developed a political system where party membership is a prerequisite for advancement in Iraqi society.

There will be enormous warfare and bloodshed from his weapons, one "a monster borne of a very hideous beast".

A former member of Saddam's personal staff, General Wafiq al-Samri, claims that Iraq has several hundred anthrax bombs in a secret underground hiding place near Saddam's hometown of Tikrit.

The Antichrist will be in action near the Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea, and the Arabian Sea. He will be a threat to everyone but particularly in the East because he will control both China and Russia and the entire Asian continent under his control, for the first time in world history.

Saddam Hussein has already made some strange bedfellows, with support from Russia, Libya and North Korea.

[firstgeardude]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Yeah, i just read the story on MSNBC, it says that it may be a double of Saddam - i doubt he is dead, probably just faking it.

probably

[ShEaNy]

well...the bottom line people...lets kick saddams ass...

[SolPol]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
lol ya looks like it i guess....man the states Gave IRaq those weapons years ago...hmmmm...not to smart now it seems....Its all about the oil in bushs eyes in the end....he could prolly care less about anti christ or whatever....its all about 'Peace' then he sees $ on the side...isnt that the world runs?..and im sure the states are worried about N korea....but they dont SEEM like to big of a threat...(i could be wrong) Racing ur going to have to explain this christ thing..please..cause i just think its peace and/or oil....

North Korea has nuclear weapons that can reach us. Say it with me now nuclear weapons:mad:

[ShEaNy]

lol^^ i know that....are they going to use them outa the blue? whos to say.....

[SolPol]

Oh, and by the way, did someone say Holy War? Because those have all turned out so well. Separation of church and state people. He's got no right making "Holy War."

[SolPol]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
lol^^ i know that....are they going to use them outa the blue? whos to say.....

Is Saddam gonna use his outta the blue? Only if we keep pushing I bet.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by SolPol
Yeah, like that ABM treaty that Bush was so worried about not breaking too right? That's not an excuse.

i was waiting for someone to point that out...


the US lives in a glass house and throws stones.... OH OH OH... saddam is SO bad he opresses his people blah blah... SO DID WE...there ARE differances to the extreme, BUT we have MANY skeletons in our closet...

lets talk about slave trade, lets talk about the opresion of women.. lets talk about the bomb we dropped in japan (the two bombings killed an estimated 110,000 Japanese citizens and injured another 130,000. By 1950, another 230,000 Japanese had died from injuries or radiation.**we are talkign civilians here)... so maybe we should not have nukes, sinse we already demostrated are readiness to use them on NONmilitary target... the devistation and pain we have cause is dwarfs the devistation of sept 11th, or ANY terror attack..

EVERYTHING is relative... and there is NO exception here, sure saddam is an asshole BUT we are NOT just in an attack with out UN support, and we will pay 10 fold for this... terrorist, radical military groups will NOT forget... who are we kidding.. these are people willing to die for there beliefs.. willing to walk into a crowded down town building and blow themselves up , people willing to drive a plane into a sky scraper... you think that war on iraq will make ANY differance... IT WON'T

[SolPol]

Amen brother :cool:

[ShEaNy]

well maybe we should all sit back and not do a damn thing at all.....im worried about my future not the past thats done....and i know the past as something to do whats going on now..oh well....too late huh..

[mt.biker]

sheany give it a rest this isn't over oil. Say its over oil just goes to show you dont understand the issues involved... pick another idea to rant about

[ShEaNy]

lol....and ur sure about that....whatever man...its my opinion..who here is in Bushs mind right now......OH well...even my boss whos form the middle east thinks thats the reason..im not alone..whooo...

[cashizslick]

If it were over oil, we should attack Canada - plain and simple.

THIS IS NOT OVER OIL - its over protecting American citizens by eliminating threats.

[SolPol]

We get almost none of our oil from Iraq :yes:

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by SolPol
We get almost none of our oil from Iraq :yes:

Exactly, I hate it when people say this is over oil, that is just a new way to make it look like Bush is a screwed up president [like our last?] and does not have the best intrest of Americans at heart while making decisions.

[SolPol]

Slow down man. Say what you want about Bill personally, but he DID have the best interesets of ALL Americans at heart.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by cashizslick
If it were over oil, we should attack Canada - plain and simple.

THIS IS NOT OVER OIL - its over protecting American citizens by eliminating threats.

please, tell me, im playing dumb so you explane this, how has saddam threatend us? and dont say by supporting osama bin laden because both of those men would be no where without the US support. he has no way of getting missles out of the country to bomb us, he is NOT a terrorist, he is DICTATOR. if he were to attack right now why in the hell would he worry about bombing a building when he has the american and birtish armed forces raiding his country.

north korea is ALOT different than this. we know north korea has a nuke program, and since they are under Chinas umbrella i see bush telling china to get nukes out of n. korea or we will arm s. korea. you do not bomb a country with nukes when it has the 3rd largest military in the world, and has the country with the largest population backing it. that is called DUMBASS. he cant have diplomatic relations with sadaam because when missles were found that exceeded the distance, they were destroiyed, then when nothing else could be found, bush told him to get out or go to war. that sounds QUITE imperialistic to me. then... to make things better bush said that when saddam is out, he will let iraqi citizens set up thier own government... as long as it didnt conflict with americas plans in the middle east and was a democracy.

and while we think what goes on over there inhumane and immoral, remeber that it is a ENTIRELY different culture. i has indian friends(india) who think americans are crazy for eating cows, but you know what, thats our culture. everyone is not an america, and for you to be one, you need to accept people for who they are.

i hate having a new thread like this every week when the same old topics are brought up. unless you can PROVE to me WITHOUT A CHADOW OF A DOUBT(that is OUR way of desiding justice after all) that saddam has weapons that bush claims he does, and he has the intent on using it on US soil, then i fail to see the need for war. nothing will look worse than saddam being out of power or dead, and then having the entire country ripped apart to find nothing. i am not anti-war or pro-war under all circumstances, i think war is the last alternative to diplomacy. we are not out of options yet, well i should say we wernt. now we have no option but war, unless saddam does something

[ShEaNy]

lol then attack canada, wouldnt that be smart..the neighbours..or some third world terriost country..hmmmm tough choice huh..like ill state this again ITS MY OPINION OK....jesus christ everyone is at my neck just ignore me then....it would be a nice start for iraq to give us oil especially when the states control it:yes: and i do think i said its about peace as well about 5 times...hmmmm

[ShEaNy]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
please, tell me, im playing dumb so you explane this, how has saddam threatend us? and dont say by supporting osama bin laden because both of those men would be no where without the US support. he has no way of getting missles out of the country to bomb us, he is NOT a terrorist, he is DICTATOR. if he were to attack right now why in the hell would he worry about bombing a building when he has the american and birtish armed forces raiding his country.

north korea is ALOT different than this. we know north korea has a nuke program, and since they are under Chinas umbrella i see bush telling china to get nukes out of n. korea or we will arm s. korea. you do not bomb a country with nukes when it has the 3rd largest military in the world, and has the country with the largest population backing it. that is called DUMBASS. he cant have diplomatic relations with sadaam because when missles were found that exceeded the distance, they were destroiyed, then when nothing else could be found, bush told him to get out or go to war. that sounds QUITE imperialistic to me. then... to make things better bush said that when saddam is out, he will let iraqi citizens set up thier own government... as long as it didnt conflict with americas plans in the middle east and was a democracy.

and while we think what goes on over there inhumane and immoral, remeber that it is a ENTIRELY different culture. i has indian friends(india) who think americans are crazy for eating cows, but you know what, thats our culture. everyone is not an america, and for you to be one, you need to accept people for who they are.

i hate having a new thread like this every week when the same old topics are brought up. unless you can PROVE to me WITHOUT A CHADOW OF A DOUBT(that is OUR way of desiding justice after all) that saddam has weapons that bush claims he does, and he has the intent on using it on US soil, then i fail to see the need for war. nothing will look worse than saddam being out of power or dead, and then having the entire country ripped apart to find nothing. i am not anti-war or pro-war under all circumstances, i think war is the last alternative to diplomacy. we are not out of options yet, well i should say we wernt. now we have no option but war, unless saddam does something

well put....

[SolPol]

George Bush 2003 = King George (or whichever English monarch) 1776.

He's doing the same thing.

Not to mention about 6 months ago when he called this quest a "crusade." There's a smart monkey for ya. :help:

[oc civic]

maybe some one should disarm OUR weapons of mass distruction sinse we have already displayed our readiness to use them... attack innocent civilians women children... with radiation... what do you all think about that???? my thoughts are it really doesn't matter what he has... THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS.. this war will solve NOTHING... terrorism will continue... violence will continue... war will continue... TILL WE ALL KILL OURSELVES... we will push some basket case JUST far enough that he pushes the button...

and then my other problem.. WHAT'S NEXT.. where does our imposing of views end??? whos next on our list..

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by SolPol
Slow down man. Say what you want about Bill personally, but he DID have the best interesets of ALL Americans at heart.

Bill had the best intrests of himself at heart.

BTW Chriscantskate - I cannot justify our actions in iraq, but i do know that all of you can agree with me that Saddam hates America, Hates Americans, probably was involved with 911, is an opressive tyrant, Has violated most of the UN sanctions put on him after the Gulf war, and probably has Nuclear Weapons.

I know all of you can agree on this, so why are you all so against this war, he is a terrible person - he should not be in power.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Bill had the best intrests of himself at heart.

BTW Chriscantskate - I cannot justify our actions in iraq, but i do know that all of you can agree with me that Saddam hates America, Hates Americans, probably was involved with 911, is an opressive tyrant, Has violated most of the UN sanctions put on him after the Gulf war, and probably has Nuclear Weapons.

I know all of you can agree on this, so why are you all so against this war, he is a terrible person - he should not be in power.

so if our goverment thinks that you "PROBABLY" killed someone they should just say **** it and execute you??? LMFAO.. GOOD THEORY!!!

[SolPol]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Bill had the best intrests of himself at heart.

BTW Chriscantskate - I cannot justify our actions in iraq, but i do know that all of you can agree with me that Saddam hates America, Hates Americans, probably was involved with 911, is an opressive tyrant, Has violated most of the UN sanctions put on him after the Gulf war, and probably has Nuclear Weapons.

I know all of you can agree on this, so why are you all so against this war, he is a terrible person - he should not be in power.

No jackass, Bush has the best interests of himself at heart. :yes:

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
so if our goverment thinks that you "PROBABLY" killed someone they should just say **** it and execute you??? LMFAO.. GOOD THEORY!!!

That is not what i said. If you take the time to read my post, i listed many reasons for why we should attack Iraq, there may have been 1 or 2 that i admit were not PROVEN, but that is not the point. Iraq is a threat to us who obviously has no intention of abiding by rules we enacted upon them.

[ChrisCantSkate]

PROBOBLY!!! omg man, you just made my day. i now see how blind people can really be. you say you want freedomand peace.. and the american way(supporting the war) but in the end you think that any non-american dosnt need to follow the same rules when they are accused of being wrong. dont make this like how the saleam witch trials where whoever was accused of a witch(or terrorist today) was put on a mock trial then exicuted. remeber majoiry does not equal right.

[cashizslick]

Who are you talking to?

[ChrisCantSkate]

dude, i read your psot, no where do you even SLIGHTEST HINT of saddam wanting to or having the means to attack US soil. you said he probobly was in on the 911 thig because him and saddam both hate america... helloo overgeneralization. this is not a black and white affair there is more grey than you know what to do with. osama hates saddam, saddam does things against his beilef also. you are trying to hold water with a strainer. you are trying to accuse saddam of terrorist acts that were not comited by him.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
That is not what i said. If you take the time to read my post, i listed many reasons for why we should attack Iraq, there may have been 1 or 2 that i admit were not PROVEN, but that is not the point. Iraq is a threat to us who obviously has no intention of abiding by rules we enacted upon them. ii did read it.. it lacked ONE CONCRETE reason for war...

[SolPol]

You know, I keep hearing about how this war is protecting our freedom

Can someone explain that to me? Because I just don't get it.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
osama hates saddam

i doubt it - that is ludakris.

Saddam is a threat to America because he has weapons of mass destruction and hates the US.

just because a bee is far away doesnt mean that it cannot sting.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Iraq is a threat to us

how???

who obviously has no intention of abiding by rules we enacted upon them.

yeah they broke UN rule, BUT so did we.. lol we are wadging a war without UN support. so maybe the UN should pass an action to remove bush.. lol

[SolPol]

Originally posted by cashizslick
i doubt it - that is ludakris.

Saddam is a threat to America because he has weapons of mass destruction and hates the US.

just because a bee is far away doesnt mean that it cannot sting.

Just because the rapper spells it that way, that doesn't mean that's how you spell ludicrous.

Actually, to me, that means it's DEFINITELY not the way you spell it.

[SolPol]

Originally posted by oc civic
how???



yeah they broke UN rule, BUT so did we.. lol we are wadging a war without UN support. so maybe the UN should pass an action to remove bush.. lol

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Exactly right man.

I heard Tony Blair kicked a puppy once. Let's go get him. This is what it is turning into.

[oc civic]

BTW weve been breaking international law very recently.. lol it seems the US likes to turture people again.. a practice that was BANNED under the geneva conventions laws for treatment of prisoners..


http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/opinion/3_12_03torture.html

[SolPol]

Whoa, seriously? At Gitmo?

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
how???



yeah they broke UN rule, BUT so did we.. lol we are wadging a war without UN support. so maybe the UN should pass an action to remove bush.. lol

Iraq is a threat because they have dangerous weapons and HATE US.

Ever heard the saying that the best defence is a good offense?
I'd rather have us attack Saddam now than wait for him to get a long range missile, load it with nukes, and shoot it at us.

[SolPol]

Like what North Korea is READY to do?

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
BTW weve been breaking international law very recently.. lol it seems the US likes to turture people again.. a practice that was BANNED under the geneva conventions laws for treatment of prisoners..


http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/opinion/3_12_03torture.html

As for the UN, they do not have the best intrests of America at heart - the smartest thing for us to do would to be to withdraw from the UN. The UN is a waste of time for us, it slows down our already slow government.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Iraq is a threat because they have dangerous weapons and HATE US.

Ever heard the saying that the best defence is a good offense?
I'd rather have us attack Saddam now than wait for him to get a long range missile, load it with nukes, and shoot it at us.

do you HONESTLY suffer from the DILUSION that this war will end the problems?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
As for the UN, they do not have the best intrests of America at heart - the smartest thing for us to do would to be to withdraw from the UN. The UN is a waste of time for us, it slows down our already slow government.

maybe we should turture there soldiers and nuke there innocent like we did in japan.. what do you say??? lol i hear they are already rounding up US citizens of iraqi decent to "question" them... hmm maybe we should just shove them in ovens?? youd like that wouldn't you?? hell why we are at it lets just kill all the non white people.. i bet youd be all for that??

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
do you HONESTLY suffer from the DILUSION that this war will end the problems?

I never said that this will end the problems, nor do i believe that.
Evil creates problems, there is more evil in the world besides Saddam [N.Korea?]

[oc civic]

and who the hell needs an anti ballistic missile treaty we should ditch that as well.. OH WAIT our power hungry dictator already did.. GOOD for him..we should stop ALL humanitarian programs and sink the money in making more violent bombs.. then use them on ANYONE we think are "unamerican"

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
maybe we should turture there soldiers and nuke there innocent like we did in japan.. what do you say??? lol i hear they are already rounding up US citizens of iraqi decent to "question" them... hmm maybe we should just shove them in ovens?? youd like that wouldn't you?? hell why we are at it lets just kill all the non white people.. i bet youd be all for that??

its *torture*

BTW, i think you are getting too worked up over this - maybe you should just go live in Iraq where your [loyalties?] obviously are.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
I never said that this will end the problems, nor do i believe that. then whats the point? Why kill people, why shoot 1.4 million dollar bombs at empty iraqi buildings when there are US citizens are starving to death on US streets... TELL ME THE POINT.. WHAT IS IT??????????

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
then whats the point? Why kill people, why shoot 1.4 million dollar bombs at empty iraqi buildings when there are US citizens are starving to death on US streets... TELL ME THE POINT.. WHAT IS IT??????????

In a dog eat dog world, who would you rather be?

it works like this- attack or be attacked.

Do you really think Saddam wouldnt attack us if he could?

If Saddam ran the US, and we were Iraq, would he nuke us?

If Saddam had 2 dozen nukes that he could reach us with, do you think he would use them?

[SolPol]

If Saddam ran the US, he wouldn't be concerned with piddly shit little Iraq

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
In a dog eat dog world, who would you rather be?

it works like this- attack or be attacked.

Do you really think Saddam wouldnt attack us if he could?

If Saddam ran the US, and we were Iraq, would he nuke us?

If Saddam had 2 dozen nukes that he could reach us with, do you think he would use them?

FACT.. cuba hates us, and has missles that can hit us
FACT.. N. korea hates us AND can hit us
FACT china is not too fond of us and has missiles that can hit us..

its funny how when you disagree with war the sheep call you unamerican..


and you of all people need not pull cards on spelling.. thats ludakris YO.. LMFAO...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Do you really think Saddam wouldnt attack us if he could?


do you really think he can't attack us if he wants.. do you really not think there are a LARGE number of iraqi loyalist/soldiers/terrorist already on US soil.. if you think there is not you are a FOOL..

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
FACT.. cuba hates us, and has missles that can hit us
FACT.. N. korea hates us AND can hit us
FACT china is not too fond of us and has missiles that can hit us..

its funny how when you disagree with war the sheep call you unamerican..


and you of all people need not pull cards on spelling.. thats ludakris YO.. LMFAO...

FACT - Saddam does not run Cuba, N.Korea, or china.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by SolPol
If Saddam ran the US, he wouldn't be concerned with piddly shit little Iraq


piddly shit you say??? Saddam seems to be concerned with a lot of piddly shit - the Kurds in his country - they pose him no threat and he had no problem using biological weapons to kill millions of them - now just think, if Saddam had our capabilities, what would piddly shit be then? (oh wait, i think he'd just rule the world).

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
FACT - Saddam does not run Cuba, N.Korea, or china.

are you saying that castro is NOT a nut case????

cause if you are LMFAO @ YOU.. the rulers of those countries are ALL equaly crazy..

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
do you really think he can't attack us if he wants.. do you really not think there are a LARGE number of iraqi loyalist/soldiers/terrorist already on US soil.. if you think there is not you are a FOOL..

Long range nukes make it easy to attack others, now, he'd have to steal more airplanes.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
piddly shit you say??? Saddam seems to be concerned with a lot of piddly shit - the Kurds in his country - they pose him no threat and he had no problem using biological weapons to kill millions of them - now just think, if Saddam had our capabilities, what would piddly shit be then? (oh wait, i think he'd just rule the world).

what FACTUAL threat does he pose TODAY that war will solve?

[SolPol]

It's all about Saddam isn't it? There are other more worrisome people.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Long range nukes make it easy to attack others, now, he'd have to steal more airplanes.

you are really grasping at straws... steal more planes??? COME ON NOW.. the NEXT bad thing like 911 wil PROBABLY be chemical in nature.. and we will NEVER see it coming..

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
are you saying that castro is NOT a nut case????

cause if you are LMFAO @ YOU.. the rulers of those countries are ALL equaly crazy..

Dont change the subject, we are not talking about those people.

Castro maybe a nutcase, but he is not Saddam (the man we are talking about).

BTW - i have to go out now, this discussion is really picking up since i have found myself repplying to posts every 2 seconds - ill be back later.

P.S. Thanks for being cool about how you feel and not being afraid to speak your mind[s]. When people dissagree with you, it is your best chance to re-enforce your way of thinking [if you can?]

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Dont change the subject, we are not talking about those people.

Castro maybe a nutcase, but he is not Saddam (the man we are talking about).

BTW - i have to go out now, this discussion is really picking up since i have found myself repplying to posts every 2 seconds - ill be back later.

P.S. Thanks for being cool about how you feel and not being afraid to speak your mind[s]. When people dissagree with you, it is your best chance to re-enforce your way of thinking [if you can?]

the point in comparing him to them is that WHAT has he done that WE or some OTHER country in the world is NOT guilty of.. and that is the question you can not answer.. tell me what hes done and i will point out at least one country guilty of the same thing..

[SolPol]

Originally posted by oc civic
you are really grasping at straws... steal more planes??? COME ON NOW.. the NEXT bad thing like 911 wil PROBABLY be chemical in nature.. and we will NEVER see it coming..

I've got one thing to say.

Not one Iraqi on those planes. NOT ONE!!!

[oc civic]

Originally posted by SolPol
I've got one thing to say.

Not one Iraqi on those planes. NOT ONE!!!



HHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA SSSSSSOOOOOOOOO TRUE!!!!!!!!

[JTsn2Bfst]

I think some of you should really evaluate where your loyalties are... and then maby consider moving. This has been a long time comming and Sadam is an evil man--not bad or insensative- EVIL.

[HondaTypeJ]

I wonder if there are import ricers in Kuwait City?:confused:

[oc civic]

Originally posted by JTsn2Bfst
I think some of you should really evaluate where your loyalties are... and then maby consider moving. This has been a long time comming and Sadam is an evil man--not bad or insensative- EVIL.

you are loyal to a goverment that heartlessly eliminated HUNDREDS of thousands of CIVILLIANS with TWO bombs.. a country that SECRETLY violates pacts it makes.. a country who ENSLAVED more people than you can count because we as a nation BELIEVED people of african decent could not possibly be equal to us light skin folks of european decent, a country who feels the need to shove its views down the throats of others.. my point is simple.. EVERY country in the world has skeletons in its closet.. PAST PRESENT and future... a country that has homeless starving to death on the streets miles away from a factory making MILLION dollar bombs...

i say it a THOUSAND times.. stop throwing stones from the glass house...

[oc civic]

i really hope the nations of the world do not judge us on the actions of our dictator....

[JTsn2Bfst]

Get th F--k out of our country then if u feel like that----- Yes our country is not perfect, far from - but it is still the land of opertunity.. Our country grows as do we- every one makes mistakes or is at one time: ignorant, selfish,arrogant etc. and our country is ran by people, so don't expect perfection.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by JTsn2Bfst
Get th F--k out of our country then if u feel like that----- Yes our country is not perfect, far from - but it is still the land of opertunity.. Our country grows as do we- every one makes mistakes or is at one time: ignorant, selfish,arrogant etc. and our country is ran by people, so don't expect perfection.

oh i get it... its ok for the US to make mistakes.. (turture, slavery, oppresion, violation of world law, inhumainity, MASS slaughter, genocide..) but its not ok for others.. heres a reality check for you..i would bet in our "wars" we have killed more innocent people than saddam has, and when i say innocent i mean civilians NOT in violation of country or international law, is saddam a GOOD man??? NO of course not.. does he need to be taken out of power.. YES is it our job to be involved.. ABSOLUTELY NOT..... you live in hawaii?? you should be REALLY concerned.. N. korea is just a stone throw away...:yes: ;)

[oc civic]

Originally posted by JTsn2Bfst
Get th F--k out of our country then if u feel like that

thats a very UNAMERICAN view.. similar to those of NAZI germany.. "if you do not believe in us.. OUT with you or execution.. " you share similar beliefs with some real nobel people

[HondaTypeJ]

:moon:

[ebpda9]

damn this thread got out of control

[HondaTypeJ]

Yes it did.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
you are loyal to a goverment that heartlessly eliminated HUNDREDS of thousands of CIVILLIANS with TWO bombs.. a country that SECRETLY violates pacts it makes.. a country who ENSLAVED more people than you can count because we as a nation BELIEVED people of african decent could not possibly be equal to us light skin folks of european decent, a country who feels the need to shove its views down the throats of others.. my point is simple.. EVERY country in the world has skeletons in its closet.. PAST PRESENT and future... a country that has homeless starving to death on the streets miles away from a factory making MILLION dollar bombs...

i say it a THOUSAND times.. stop throwing stones from the glass house...

If you think like this, you have no business leeching off of the freedoms and wrights you have as an american citizen

If you think dropping an atomic weapon on japan was a bad idea, you are an IDIOT. Would you rather the US army have lead a grownd war against japan? This would have caused many more AMERICAN casualties - if you think this way, you should consider moving.

How as an American citizen can you tell me that attacking Iraq, a nation hostile to the US who has been involved in shaddy A** business for over a century, is a wrong or unjust thing to do.

Sure the US has made mistakes - we admit it and have changed as a country and a nation - Name one other nation where and Ethnic group or other powerless social minority has the ability to change a nation through peacefull non-cooperation?

Saddam is an EVIL person who should not be allowed to continue wasting fresh air.

If EVERY country has SKELETONS in its closet, why are you even arguing with me in the first place? Why should world events even consern a passivist such as yourself?

This really disturbs me:

a country who feels the need to shove its views down the throats of others

We are a country of free speach, free elections, equal rights, a country built on freedom.

Iraq does not have free anything - Saddam forces more than just views down the throats of his people [Devistating Chemical Weapons].

How as a human being can you watch others suffer and not feel a sence of their pain - what is wrong with you?

If u were and Iraqi, you'd be Damn glad Saddam is about to be kicked out of office - or maybe not, your views are quite strange - you might like getting oppressed by a dictator or communist govt.

i mean, those govts do not do things in secret, they dont act in a secretive manner, their evil deeds are obvious.

[Racing Rice]

Okay, stop and think about this..

The reason why we need to get Saddam out of office isnt as much as he is a danger to us, just yet. But more to every country in the middle east Kawait, Isreal, and everything else that surrounds them. Unless we do something about him he will begin to take over that area. Could be sooner, it could be later but its bound to happen.

We being a (for the most part) Christian country will try to keep Isreal (Holy Land) safe from Saddam. Believe me if you want, but Hitler did it in Germany, Saddam will do it in the Middle East.

As for the UN, have you noticed the people that wont support us are all the people we have assisted in saving thier butts many times in past wars. Thats strange.. :o

And lets not forget the fact that people are beginning to change thier tunes and move over to our side now. Hrm.. They are launching SCUDS that they dont have, at our troops.. That too is very strange..:paranoid:

[ebpda9]

well i bet there is more to it than it just meets the eye. i'm sure the warheads and chemical weapons aren't the only reason to go there (and don't bring the oil in)

[SolPol]

Yeah, he made our President's daddy look bad and costed him an election. :yes:

[cashizslick]

As much as people would like to pin that on Bush, he is not and does not give the slightest hint of doing this for his father.

[SolPol]

Direct quote from George Bush:

"We're talking about a man who tried to kill my father here."

Nope, no hint at all :mad:

[firstgeardude]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
As for the UN, have you noticed the people that wont support us are all the people we have assisted in saving thier butts many times in past wars. Thats strange.. :o



maybe im wrong here, but some of those countries have interests with iraq. Doesnt France have an oil deal with Iraq... no wonder they dont want the war:rolleyes:

[SolPol]

Their countries, their business. I can't believe all these people getting mad at France. Screw 'em, it's not like they'd be any help anyway.

[SolPol]

Originally posted by SolPol
Direct quote from George Bush:

"We're talking about a man who tried to kill my father here."

Nope, no hint at all :mad:

Anyone? Anyone?

[ChrisCantSkate]

oh wow, i have hours of fun to play with the past posts.... here i go..


Originally posted by cashizslick
If you think like this, you have no business leeching off of the freedoms and wrights you have as an american citizen

If you think dropping an atomic weapon on japan was a bad idea, you are an IDIOT. Would you rather the US army have lead a grownd war against japan? This would have caused many more AMERICAN casualties - if you think this way, you should consider moving.

How as an American citizen can you tell me that attacking Iraq, a nation hostile to the US who has been involved in shaddy A** business for over a century, is a wrong or unjust thing to do.

Sure the US has made mistakes - we admit it and have changed as a country and a nation - Name one other nation where and Ethnic group or other powerless social minority has the ability to change a nation through peacefull non-cooperation?

Saddam is an EVIL person who should not be allowed to continue wasting fresh air.

If EVERY country has SKELETONS in its closet, why are you even arguing with me in the first place? Why should world events even consern a passivist such as yourself?

This really disturbs me:


We are a country of free speach, free elections, equal rights, a country built on freedom.

Iraq does not have free anything - Saddam forces more than just views down the throats of his people [Devistating Chemical Weapons].

How as a human being can you watch others suffer and not feel a sence of their pain - what is wrong with you?

If u were and Iraqi, you'd be Damn glad Saddam is about to be kicked out of office - or maybe not, your views are quite strange - you might like getting oppressed by a dictator or communist govt.

i mean, those govts do not do things in secret, they dont act in a secretive manner, their evil deeds are obvious.

once again you FAILED to show saddam is a threat to US soil. you cannot go to war on a hunch. if you think that some poeple might be attacked because of weapons some dictator MIGHT have.... that is VERY weak. we will kill iraqi civiliansin this war, there will be casualties of war that are very unnessisary, over something that is non of the US's business yet. once saddam attacks a mid-east country in an inhumane way or shows to be a threat to a contry that cannot defend its self, then the UN would set in to put the foot down.

im glad you are SO self centered that the death of 350000 japanise civilans was accepatble instead of attacking the japanise army. if would be just like if saddam desided that instead of attacking our army and risk loosing iraqi's that he just nuke newyork and LA. it would save his peoples lives, and kill less americans, but you know what, its ****ING WRONG.

The laws of america are not the laws of the world. you say you want freedom, but everytime someone disagrees with you, you tell them to go live in iraq with our dictator we love, well, that sure as hell doesnt sound like someone who believes in freedom to me. you are SUCH a hypocrate. you say one thing, but contradict it. you want to go to war to save innocent american lives at the cost of US diplomacy with the world, and the loss of US troops and civilians around the world. this has so much more potential of springing terrorist attacks by rouge groups of iraqi's because of the horsesh!t that bush is pushing.

you want to talk about a country that REALLY ****ed its people over.. WE DID. ever herd of the american indians? they were living peacfully here then europeans came and enslaved them. our government had military missions to kill native americans just because we wanted their land. that was genocide to our people. they showed no threat other than fear we put into them because of attacking them. we can look at colenel mustard and his campains chasing indans all over america, or the trail of tears where president jackson moved all the cherokee indians form their homes to a spot of land far away. today even we have our indian concentraion camps(or reserves, however you want to look at them) where we gave them a very small portion of land for them to live on.

thats very old though, how about something more recent... like segragation of blacks. they were put in different schools, treated like crap, beaten, denyed basic human needs, killed for someone elses crime, touchered, told they were less human than whites and this was just 40 years ago. we are the most advanced country in the world, and that is through experience. you cannot tell a kid that something is hot and expect him to believe you without testing it. when we were developing our country through the past few 100 years, europeans didnt have the same beliefes as us, but you know what, it was our country, not theirs they knew their place and only stepped in when it involved endagerment to their colonies or poeple in "the new world"

i am not a supporter of saddam, and i do not agree with what he does. but it is not my business. george washington said that foriegn affairs would be the downfall of this nation. lets not prove him right. nothing will kill world support with the USA more than if we were wrong in this matter. how is it going to look if we once again murder civilans because of what we THOUGHT was best for the world. i bet the american indians or african americans understand that a different culture isnt a lower one that deserves to die.

how about next time you preach for peace and unity in the world, you not do it by going to war when there are alternative methods of dealing with issues

[SolPol]

I've got nothing to add to that.

Until someone makes a dumbass reply. Then I'll be back. :yes:

Keep it up man:smoking:

[oc civic]

Some of you are SO ****ing dense ,,,, im NOT against war.. I am FOR international law... I am for a JUST and fair process. not wars based on personal vendetta not one of you has sited a SUBSTANTIAL reason for war.... ONE MORE TIME FOR THE SLOWER PEOPLE IN THE ROOM.

Saddam SHOULD be removed, that is my personal opinion, it is ALSO my personal opinion that it is NOT our job to do it.

I also believe when we impose our "freedoms" GOOD or BAD, on other countries that is EQUALLY "nazi" like... Iraq has a government, we have NO business being involved in there politics...

I ALSO DO believe he had weapons that were in violation of the UN LAWS, BUT WE VIOLATE INTERNATIONAL LAW AS WELL..so what the hell does that prove....

I IN NO WAY SUPPORT HIM, BUT you need to examine ALL sides of the fence to UNDERSTAND things... AND understanding things IS SO important..

case in point.. we thought killing 300 THOUSAND plus INNOCENT civilians would make Japan see our way, WELL maybe the "terrorist" felt that in there "holy war" that the blood shed of a few thousand would wake up America to there "evil" ways ... it's ALL subjective, right and wrong is subjective ... and yes hate me if you want, BUT i think it is WAY more ****ed up to kill a BABY, MOTHER, CHILDREN, and other civilians (who may not even agree with war) than a soldier (a person who COMMITS to FIGHTING in a war our soldiers, Iraqis soldiers, whatever)... don't freak out, AS I have told MANY military people (some of which are on this board) i COMPLETELY support them, but I do NOT support the war....

[cashizslick]

The fact that Iraq poses a major threat to the middle east makes them a threat to the rest of the world. It is a smart move of our govt to deal with this problem now instead of after Saddam takes over his surrounding neighbors and becomes more powerfull/aquires more weapons.

If you think that the US should not engage in this you are wrong.

Germany never DIRECTLY attacked us before we entered the 2nd world war, so i guess we should have just stayed out of the European theater and just fought Japan.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by cashizslick
The fact that Iraq poses a major threat makes them a threat to the rest of the world.
please elaborate, you fail to make teh sence

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
please elaborate, you fail to make teh sence


Sorry about that, i meant to type that Since Iraq is a major threat to the MIDDLE EAST makes them a threat to the rest of the world.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
The fact that Iraq poses a major threat makes them a threat to the rest of the world. It is a smart move of our govt to deal with this problem now instead of after Saddam takes over his surrounding neighbors and becomes more powerfull/aquires more weapons.

If you think that the US should not engage in this you are wrong.

Germany never DIRECTLY attacked us before we entered the 2nd world war, so i guess we should have just stayed out of the European theater and just fought Japan.

he was attacking other countries ACTIVELY, and occupying them... similar to waht saddam did in kuwait.. but we drove him out of kuwait.. SO... i still fail to see the comparison...

[SolPol]

Ahem...Japan was Germany's main ally. Your ally attacked us means you attacked us.

And if anyone brings up the :bs: that Osama and Saddam are allies I will bug out.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by SolPol
Ahem...Japan was Germany's main ally. Your ally attacked us means you attacked us.

And if anyone brings up the :bs: that Osama and Saddam are allies I will bug out.

So, if we are allies with France, and we attack Iraq, then France has also attacked Iraq?

[oc civic]

hey anyone know the BIGGEST similarity between saddam and hitler.. i bet you don't.. lol ill post it in a few minutes.. see if any of you can guess..

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
hey anyone know the BIGGEST similarity between saddam and hitler.. i bet you don't.. lol ill post it in a few minutes.. see if any of you can guess..

umm, they both wanna take over the world?

ps - oc civic - what's your nitrous shot at? Just wondering.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
So, if we are allies with France, and we attack Iraq, then France has also attacked Iraq?



Yes, its called guilty by association...
;)

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
umm, they both wanna take over the world?

ps - oc civic - what's your nitrous shot at? Just wondering.

the bush family has had STRONG trade and money relationships with both HITLER, AND SADDAM...


http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

interesting the MORE you dig the MORE crooked people are.. im starting to think this MIGHT just be about money after all.. lol

[SolPol]

Originally posted by cashizslick
So, if we are allies with France, and we attack Iraq, then France has also attacked Iraq?

If France and us have been traipsing all over the globe taking over other nations previously? Absolutely.

Der

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
umm, they both wanna take over the world?

ps - oc civic - what's your nitrous shot at? Just wondering.

i run a 60 OR 70 depending on how im feeling.. lol its adjustable from 50-70

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by oc civic
the bush family has had STRONG trade and money relationships with both HITLER, AND SADDAM...


http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

interesting the MORE you dig the MORE crooked people are.. im starting to think this MIGHT just be about money after all.. lol
mother of ownage :yes:

[oc civic]

hmm whys it so quiet all of the sudden...;)

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by oc civic
hmm whys it so quiet all of the sudden...;)
because you cannot have a decent hoest reply about the bush family intentions after that tid-bit of information... maybe:cool:

[SolPol]

Oh yeah. See, I always tend to think that people already know this. I forget that not many are aware.:cool:

[oc civic]

Originally posted by oc civic
the bush family has had STRONG trade and money relationships with both HITLER, AND SADDAM...


http://www.tarpley.net/bush2.htm

interesting the MORE you dig the MORE crooked people are.. im starting to think this MIGHT just be about money after all.. lol

i guess the bush family is not too concerned with Humanity, and the suffering of a nation when it is lining there pockets... eh.. no real surprise there.... TYPICAL politician...

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by oc civic
TYPICAL politician...

:yes: Pretty much..:crazy:

[HondaTypeJ]

Feelin' hot hot hot!

[HondaTypeJ]

.

[SolPol]

Huh?

[HondaTypeJ]

I just needed to add something that I found amusing. All these tense arguments suck.

[SolPol]

I'm with ya there. So thanks then. :yes:

[ChrisCantSkate]

lets keep this thread to a whore minimum. it is a good debate we are having, and i dont want to see it lost because of a few pages of whorage

[SolPol]

Just trying to lighten up I think he was. No biggie, better than all out fighting. Though that will be back in a minute I'm sure. :yes:

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by SolPol
Just trying to lighten up I think he was. No biggie, better than all out fighting. Though that will be back in a minute I'm sure. :yes:
i just dont want this to get way off topic and lose the great debate going on.

[cashizslick]

lets keep this thread to a whore minimum. it is a good debate we are having, and i dont want to see it lost because of a few pages of whorage


Quite true, this is a good debate - plus those pages of whoring [motivation?] helped me get over 400 posts lol.

But yes, i am glad we have not gotten too out of hand over this discussion.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
i just dont want this to get way off topic and lose the great debate going on.

Well, to get us back on track here's something i just thought of:

If you see an Old deffensless Lady getting beat up by somebody Half your size, what would you do?

Would you say, "that guy is not a threat to me, so i will not attack him, after all, i have gotten into fights before." ???

of corse not, if you had any decency, you would help the old lady out and kick the ______ outta that guy who's no where near as big as you.

You could look at the people Saddam opresses as the Old defenseless lady, and we are the United States - what is the right thing to do?

"opposition to your beliefs only makes you question who you are"

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Well, to get us back on track here's something i just thought of:

If you see an Old deffensless Lady getting beat up by somebody Half your size, what would you do?

Would you say, "that guy is not a threat to me, so i will not attack him, after all, i have gotten into fights before." ???

of corse not, if you had any decency, you would help the old lady out and kick the ______ outta that guy who's no where near as big as you.

You could look at the people Saddam opresses as the Old defenseless lady, and we are the United States - what is the right thing to do?

"opposition to your beliefs only makes you question who you are"

the point i AND chris make.. is are you SURE who the bully really is...?????? look at the US gov, and tell me in ALL honesty its not guilty of being the bully on MORE than SEVERAL occasions...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
Well, to get us back on track here's something i just thought of:

If you see an Old deffensless Lady getting beat up by somebody Half your size, what would you do?

Would you say, "that guy is not a threat to me, so i will not attack him, after all, i have gotten into fights before." ???

of corse not, if you had any decency, you would help the old lady out and kick the ______ outta that guy who's no where near as big as you.

You could look at the people Saddam opresses as the Old defenseless lady, and we are the United States - what is the right thing to do?

"opposition to your beliefs only makes you question who you are"

and on a side note would you attack the bully if you thought that his bully friends would come back and kill your family and children in there sleep??? im fron philedelphia, go there and try that shit.. go intervene in a mugging... ill bring flowers to your funeral;)

[ChrisCantSkate]

OC just hit the bullseye. i dont have anything to add to that.

im just more blown away by the hitler/buch connection, and both bushes doing business in the 80's with saddam. since we are going off of what saddam did in the past to justify this war, we MUST look at what the buishes have also done in the past, and must wonder the motive of this war.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
and on a side note would you attack the bully if you thought that his bully friends would come back and kill your family and children in there sleep??? im fron philedelphia, go there and try that shit.. go intervene in a mugging... ill bring flowers to your funeral;)

Thats not the way to think - if you hit the bully hard enough, his friends will wimp out because bullies do not have "true friends" they make "friends" by creating fear.

[Racing Rice]

Dunno about that.. Have you ever met a real thug? They usually fear nothing. Your just going to get jumped. Most of them never feel pain anyhow.:no:

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
the point i AND chris make.. is are you SURE who the bully really is...?????? look at the US gov, and tell me in ALL honesty its not guilty of being the bully on MORE than SEVERAL occasions...

If everybody is in the wrong, then you should not even bother arguing this topic - if all govts are evil and cannot redeme themselves - then its no wonder why you see this as a bad idea.

tell me something - you are probably a fan of socialism? just wondering - i mean if the entire world were under one govt, and everybody had the same things regardless, then all our problems would be solved?

Just wondering

[Racing Rice]

On a little different note...

Has anyone else noticed that since they started bombing Iraq stocks have been in the green?:paranoid: :o

[cashizslick]

For those of us who are finance-illiterate, could you tell us what "green" means?

[ShEaNy]

hmmm that took me about 30 mintues to read everyones post....i cant really add anything but nice wording props to chris and oc civic...so now money is involved in this war? or did i read wrong...lol:mad: and im starting to believe oil isnt the issue either...apprantly its all on fire right now lol meh....keep it up guys good debating..should start a world class team ;) :rolleyes: :yes: :cool:

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by cashizslick
For those of us who are finance-illiterate, could you tell us what "green" means?

Green is good..
Red is bad... :D

Stocks have seen positive growth for the last 8 days. This hasnt happened since Nov. 1996.:eek:

[ShEaNy]

wow^^ that is weird huh...wonder why..

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
good debating..should start a world class team ;) :rolleyes: :yes: :cool:

Ill pass.. I only debate by myself..;) :D

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Green is good..
Red is bad... :D

Stocks have seen positive growth for the last 8 days. This hasnt happened since Nov. 1996.:eek:

your talking about our stocks?

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
wow^^ that is weird huh...wonder why..

War always brings economic growth..:)

I hope it stays this way.. My 401K has gone to the pooper lately.:o

[ShEaNy]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Ill pass.. I only debate by myself..;) :D
LOL

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by cashizslick
your talking about our stocks?

:yes:

Actually stocks all over the world (for the most part) have been on the rise.

[ShEaNy]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
War always brings economic growth..:)

I hope it stays this way.. My 401K has gone to the pooper lately.:o

*Grabs a gun* here ill help ;) ;) :rolleyes:

[cashizslick]

Well, nothing like a war to stimulate the economy.

Ya know, it was WW2 that brought our country outta the depression.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
If everybody is in the wrong, then you should not even bother arguing this topic - if all govts are evil and cannot redeme themselves - then its no wonder why you see this as a bad idea.

tell me something - you are probably a fan of socialism? just wondering - i mean if the entire world were under one govt, and everybody had the same things regardless, then all our problems would be solved?

Just wondering

That's EXACTLY my point. There is ALWAYS a chance to redeem yourself. Gov. is corrupted by money and greed MOST of the time ... and unfortunately there is no real way to fix that, and I don't necessarily believe in one world gov. but i DO believe that if we really invested a little more faith in things like the UN, treaties, truces... MAYBE we'd get somewhere. one thing is for sure. WAR only perpetuates itself. unfortunately SOMETIMES its needed.

see its hard to keep on track.. i guess its like this.. if there was a "perfect world" to me.. it would be a strong UN.. and more diplomacy. and FEWER wars as stated you can NEVER avoid war completely... i think that the biggest problem with us is our corruption. our willingness to agree to something like the Geneva convention, and THEN use torture after we agree not to. To me chemical and biological warfare is the same ... they agree not to do it then do it anyway. well we are hypocrites to be angered by that, since we are equally guilty... Sadam WILL be dethroned..(probably) and his followers will go into hiding.. and rise up again. There is ONLY one way to fix the drama. and that is to eliminate the problems. And stop the hate. how can you tech nations to get along by bombing there buildings ... how can you teach that killing is wrong by killing. YOU CAN'T we NEED to sit and talk to these people. as absurd as that sounds... TALKING does not kill people ... there was a time when we thought a final super war with Russia was UNAVOIDABLE ... that time has passed. if we as a race wish to survive, the same needs to happen in the middle east, and all over the world. The WORLD needs to stand against him, NOT one nation.

[oc civic]

maybe if they made less ONE AND A HALF MILLION DOLAR BOMBS and invested that cash into the country in POSITIVE things (economy, health care, schools, etc...) we wouldn't be so bad off;)

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
That's EXACTLY my point. There is ALWAYS a chance to redeem yourself. Gov. is corrupted by money and greed MOST of the time ... and unfortunately there is no real way to fix that, and I don't necessarily believe in one world gov. but i DO believe that if we really invested a little more faith in things like the UN, treaties, truces... MAYBE we'd get somewhere. one thing is for sure. WAR only perpetuates itself. unfortunately SOMETIMES its needed.

see its hard to keep on track.. i guess its like this.. if there was a "perfect world" to me.. it would be a strong UN.. and more diplomacy. and FEWER wars as stated you can NEVER avoid war completely... i think that the biggest problem with us is our corruption. our willingness to agree to something like the Geneva convention, and THEN use torture after we agree not to. To me chemical and biological warfare is the same ... they agree not to do it then do it anyway. well we are hypocrites to be angered by that, since we are equally guilty... Sadam WILL be ethroned..probably) and his followers will go into hiding.. and rise up again. There is ONLY one way to fix the drama. and that is to eliminate the problems. And stop the hate. how can you tech nations to get along by bombing there buildings ... how can you teach that killing is wrong by killing. YOU CAN'T we NEED to sit and talk to these people. as absurd as that sounds... TALKING does not kill people ... there was a time when we thought a final super war with Russia was UNAVOIDABLE ... that time has passed. if we as a race wish to survive, the same needs to happen in the middle east, and all over the world. The WORLD needs to stand against him, NOT one nation.

If the world needs to stand against Saddam but wont, somebody has to lead by example - us. But what the rest of what your saying is clear to me.

One thing i cannot agree with is a strong UN. The UN maybe a world organization, but the UN does not have the best intrests of AMERICANS at hand. If the UN were to be strong, the nations in it would have to have similar governments who understand eachother by functioning in a similar economical manner.

[ShEaNy]

there will never be a perfect world....gota live knowing that....

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Bush is doing what needs to be done.. That is get Saddam the hell out of here.. He is serious trouble..

We could all sit on our hands and wait for the damn French and Germans, but lets not forget that they did that for Hitler.. Gave him time and let him grow and strengthen, instead of going after him early. Whether everyone likes it or not, this is bound to happen sooner or later. Id rather it be sooner then later.:rolleyes:

This is why it is a good idea to eliminate a potential problem like iraq. It is absurd to think that Saddam is not going to continue to grow in power like Hitler did - to deny this is ridiculous.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by sheany_91accord
there will never be a perfect world....gota live knowing that....

Exactly. . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by cashizslick
One thing i cannot agree with is a strong UN. The UN maybe a world organization, but the UN does not have the best intrests of AMERICANS at hand. If the UN were to be strong, the nations in it would have to have similar governments who understand eachother by functioning in a similar economical manner.

the only thing with that is, who do you look out for? the world or for america? the UN is looking out for the best interests of the world, not america. you must draw the line between world peace and best interest for america, because honestly, everyone cannot get along and be the best. we all want to be the best, and there can only be one best, and if it is done competitivly then the loser will not be happy. through diplomacy and compramise only then can everyone even attempt to get along.

[zm_dawg]

I haven't read everything in this thread but I can imagine the topics going back and forth. I've been sitting in front of the television forever now...I've seen and heard everything. I never wanna see innocent people getting killed, but I can't sit here and try to say this war isn't needed. I feel everything is going as planned and hopefully it'll be done soon. We can't let him gain any more power then he already has, so he either needed to leave like we wanted or be forced out by death or whatever else. This is the only way the Iraqi people will ever be free...there's so many living in fear of Sadaam and the more we tear through there hopefully the quicker they'll realize to surrender and be unharmed and start living for the future of their country instead of the present for there so-called leader.....

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
If the world needs to stand against Saddam but wont, somebody has to lead by example - us. But what the rest of what your saying is clear to me.

One thing i cannot agree with is a strong UN. The UN maybe a world organization, but the UN does not have the best intrests of AMERICANS at hand. If the UN were to be strong, the nations in it would have to have similar governments who understand eachother by functioning in a similar economical manner.

so when a nation does not get its way then its a good idea to wage war??? that IS what you are saying isn't it??? lol


COMPRAMISE, is key.. we will not always get our way, but hey thats life.. thats the WHOLE reason i believe in a strong UN, because it is comprised of ALL nations.. SSSSOOOOOOO it is a collective view, NOT a narrow minded muslim view, not a narrow minded western view, not a german view... its a COLLECTIVE view.. and that is closer to peace than anything else.

[nonovurbizniz]

First off... the UN isn't looking out for anyone... if you think it's a cohesive organization that has common interests your wrong.... every person in the UN is out to protect there OWN interests.

The war sucks and I wouldn't have done it myself...

I hate bush but I can honestly say that I have NEVER been happier to have a retarded-cowboy-monkey in the white house...

Bush may be a dumbass but at least he does what HE think is right regardless of opinions about him... that's a good leader. The fault of having a retard like him in the white house is SOLELY OUR fault.

Now that he's there he's doing what we ALL should have expected.

Saddam is a F*ck... he's a dick his own people don't like him and the only reason we couldn't get support for the war through the UN is because EVERYONE new that bush was going to do this REGARDLESS of what ANYONE said.... so they took the simple way out... playcate the people of there countries by pretending they are against it.... It's just not the case.... the only countries who are LEGITAMALY against war with Iraq are those who have vested interest in either the maintanance of the Saddam regime or the protection closed door deals they don't want you to know about.

France Germany and Russia are the ONLY countries who really don't want this to happen and they all have the same reasons.... OIL, ARMS DEALS, and other back door Schenanagens (sp).

France has uncollected rights to drill iraqi oil... they want it... and bad... there are also rumors that France (a country which produced depleted uranium like it was candy) has made back door deals with Iraq and Saddam to further his Nuclear program... they do not want people to know about this.

Germany is the same deal... they were traded oil rights or price fixed oil for technology and info they NEVER should have even considered giving to a rogue state like Iraq.

Russia... CAN ANYONE SAY GOING OUT OF BUSINESS SALE.
russia is about as credible as a crack head asking to borrow your vcr to dub a tape.

I don't like or approve of war... but the problem is that YOU PUSSIES have made it impossible for a leader to do what MUST be done.... certain times and people call for war or violence... there's no arguing it.... Sometimes people are just bad... not to infer that there are no bad american or other country leaders just that this particular guy is a TOTAL D-BAG and he CAN be dealt with realatively safely where as if you let him keep going it's only a matter of time before he says he has what he needs to attack america... and YES he DOES want to destroy america... NO ONE QUESTIONS THAT.

This should have been done in the senior bushs' presidency. We should not have accepted a cease fire under the condition's Saddam was willing to accept. We (the gov.) told the people of Iraq they should liberate themselves and we would be there soon to help... once this started happening Saddam realized he was going to loose control so he offered a retreat out of Kuwait as long as he could stay in power and deal with those that did rise up as he wished.... bush agreed because of PUSSIES like all of you who are whinning about all this crap.... The "highway of death" headline scared the tar out of Sr. so he accepted a surrender that, if he did what HE thought was right, he would have NEVER accepted.

Sr wanted to get rid of Saddam once and for all.. but because he was a beotch and listened to bleeding heart P*ssies like all the protesters now... THOUSANDS of people in Iraq who we PROMISED we'd help DIED HORRIBLE DEATHS including the death and dismemberment of CHILDREN... all because protesting PUSSIES didn't want to hear about children dying in bomb raids conducted by the U.S.

Me personally.. If I'm the subject of an unfair tyranical gov. and I have to risk loosing my family to a bombing raid so that NO ONE's babies will have to be TORTURED in front of there parents... That's a risk I would GLADLY take.

This is something that MUST be done... it's just easy to say War is bad and leave the Iraqi's to fend for themselves but it takes a MAN to say I will be the villan for the sake of the INNOCENT.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
Bush may be a dumbass but at least he does what HE think is right regardless of opinions about him... that's a good leader. The fault of having a retard like him in the white house is SOLELY OUR fault.

actualy its NOT our fault.. lol Maybe you missed the election.. Let me recap it for you


Democrat Al Gore with 50.16 million votes,
Republican candidate George W. Bush with 49.82 million votes

Bush LOST popular vote... But then again as im SURE you know... WE the people do NOT elect the president... the reason we don't is because we are too stupid to make such an important decision, or at least thats how it started...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
Bush may be a dumbass but at least he does what HE think is right regardless of opinions about him... that's a good leader. The fault of having a retard like him in the white house is SOLELY OUR fault.



that is the WORSE thing a president can do... you are SUPOSED to lead the country how the people want it led.. a president is SUPOSED to be the major rep. of our country... NOT someone who just does what he wants..


in fact the original intent of the right to bare arms and form a militia was intended so that we the people could posses adiquate weapons so that in the event that the government DOES become out of control, and DOES start doing things that we the people as a whole disagree with, that we can NOT be oppressed by the government and can rebel against them and dismantel them it was a failsafe against another monarchy.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
France Germany and Russia are the ONLY countries who really don't want this to happen and they all have the same reasons.... OIL, ARMS DEALS, and other back door Schenanagens (sp).



did you read what i posted before about OUR back door shenanigans... we are in NO position to acuse anyone of "sleeping with the enemy" especialy with a bush in office

[firstgeardude]

well put nonovurbizniz

even though i'm not a big fan of Bush, he is doing what needs to be done

[ShEaNy]

k this is getting no where...the war is happening NONE of us are going to stop that...it looks like were winning... point or pointless its happening....like i said...No where..will we see a perfect world to live in....to try and do so...we should start with our own streets.....

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz

This should have been done in the senior bushs' presidency. We should not have accepted a cease fire under the condition's Saddam was willing to accept. We (the gov.) told the people of Iraq they should liberate themselves and we would be there soon to help... once this started happening Saddam realized he was going to loose control so he offered a retreat out of Kuwait as long as he could stay in power and deal with those that did rise up as he wished.... bush agreed because of PUSSIES like all of you who are whinning about all this crap.... The "highway of death" headline scared the tar out of Sr. so he accepted a surrender that, if he did what HE thought was right, he would have NEVER accepted.

Sr wanted to get rid of Saddam once and for all.. but because he was a beotch and listened to bleeding heart P*ssies like all the protesters now... THOUSANDS of people in Iraq who we PROMISED we'd help DIED HORRIBLE DEATHS including the death and dismemberment of CHILDREN... all because protesting PUSSIES didn't want to hear about children dying in bomb raids conducted by the U.S.

Me personally.. If I'm the subject of an unfair tyranical gov. and I have to risk loosing my family to a bombing raid so that NO ONE's babies will have to be TORTURED in front of there parents... That's a risk I would GLADLY take.

This is something that MUST be done... it's just easy to say War is bad and leave the Iraqi's to fend for themselves but it takes a MAN to say I will be the villan for the sake of the INNOCENT.

BUSH SENIOR WAS CLEANING UP HIS OWN MISTAKE


After becoming President in January 1989, Prescott Bush's son, George Herbert Walker Bush - father of our current President - authorized a series of programs that not only armed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein but also provided him with technology that assisted in his development of chemical weapons like Sarin gas, and biological weapons, which he still possesses. Apologists for Bush (the elder) say that, after the Iran-Iraq War of the 1980s left the region unstable, he was just trying to establish a new balance of power. Not so. Bush directives and policies, including relationships with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) were directly and deliberately responsible for creating the army the U.S. fought in 1991.

ALL OF YOU NEED TO STOP BEING ****ING SHEEP.... do a little digging.. formulate your OWN opinion..
:rolleyes:

[nonovurbizniz]

Ya following the fical public opinion is WAY better than doing what you believe....

In the mid 90's Clinton launched a cruise missle attack on a guy by the name of Osama bin Laden.... the first missle missed and hit an embacy or something like that...

The PUBLIC freaked out... "why are you firing missles at caves"... "that guy isn't REALLY a threat"....

Well guess what... if clinton had stuck to his guns like a GOOD president should... we would have NEVER KNOWN 9-11...

It is OUR responsability to elect the best person for the job. After that I'm sorry but your wrong the public has NO say whatsoever in the running of the country till 4 years later... that's why president's only are in office for 4 years... so if the public diagrees with him they can elect someone else...

If you think that the right to bare arms has ANYTHING to do with overtaking our OWN gov. your dumb.... sorry but that's the way it is.

Your only control over your gov. on a realtime basis is through your congress. Senators and Representitives HAVE to listen to there voting public.. they in turn impose those beliefs through law making and passing or not passing laws/bills.

If you tried to start an armed revolution against the president or his admistration or the Gov. in general YOU WOULD BE KILLED BY THE ARMY SO FAST YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TIME TO SAY JUST KIDDING.

Armed revolution IS NOT any part of the reason we have the right ot bare arms. Revolution from FORIEGN governments was. England was not our gov. that was our arguement.

And the reason militia's and the right to bare arms were started was because the ENGLISH army was on there way here to kick our ass' into line.

And just so you know... a president acting in whatever fassion is not a monarchy... He still needs congress' approval and givin enough public outcry he could be impeached and deposed (if there is an impeachable crime).

I'm sorry but our check and balance system isn't HALF as quick or direct as you think... presidents, armies, politicians get away with doing ALL SORTS of unconstitutional/illegal things. It take a LOT of time for the check and balances to catch up with ANYTHING.

And as far as that not being the kind of president you want... well that's your decission... but I'd take someone that you can predict. Someone who thinks one thing is a great idea until the public disagrees isn't exactly what you'd catagorize as a "leader" that's more of a follower.

If you look at the history of the country ALL the best presidents went against popular belief and got things DONE which shaped our world to what it is now... and yes some of it was/is irreprehensable however far more of it ENSURED that we are all living in a FREE country.

Saddam is F'ing Clownshoes... he needs to be gone... he's a joke and worse than that he is a sick F*ck who has a STRANGLE hold on his own people.

People who don't understand what's going on love to sit there on there pedistal of piety while people suffer under saddam because of OUR inaction...

And as far as this being a war for oil... PLEASE... If all of a sudden america was taking all of iraqs oil (or even some of it) without paying out the nose EVERYONE WOULD KNOW INSTANTLY.... It just wouldn't be stood for.... that's pure ignorance...

My sister is a BIGTIME protestor... she goes all around the world protesting this and that... the problem is when I ask her (or any other person) to explain her problems with whatever she's protesting she yammers off all the typical bullcrap then you ask her what she or any of the groups she belongs to thinks should be done instead... they have NO ideas...

I say sh*t or get of the pot if your intension is just to STOP things and not offer an alternative then shut up.

I'd go so far as to say 90% of the people who disagree with this war have NO understanding about what it's REALLY about and are just bandwagoneer's.

I'm the first to question ANYTHING my gov. does.... I am the first to UTTERLY DECIMATE BUSH'S CHARACTOR.. he's a dick a moron and an embarrasment... HOWEVER... this is what needs to be done. maybe not for the reason's he's saying.. but it needs to be done... Saddam is a danger to the world much less his own people.

There is NO defending Saddam Hussein.

I said the day bush got elected "we're going to war with Iraq one way or the other"... and when it started to happen I was VERY against it.... then I thought about it....

Bush is offering himself up as a scapegoat... NO ONE will blame america they'll blame bush... good. This is something that needs to be done.

Saddam has been spitting in our face since the gulf war... SHOOTING AT OUR JETS that patrol the no fly zone... I don't know about you but that's an act of war to me... continuing on the path toward nuclear weapons.. furthering his biological and chemical programs and TORTURING HIS POPULATION.

**** him he's got to go... If you want a gov to revolt against try the Iraqi one. ours isn't doing ALL that bad. (well ok it is but that's just an election away)

[nonovurbizniz]

You're saying not to be sheep then you say our leader should be one???????

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
Ya following the fical public opinion is WAY better than doing what you believe....

In the mid 90's Clinton launched a cruise missle attack on a guy by the name of Osama bin Laden.... the first missle missed and hit an embacy or something like that...

The PUBLIC freaked out... "why are you firing missles at caves"... "that guy isn't REALLY a threat"....

Well guess what... if clinton had stuck to his guns like a GOOD president should... we would have NEVER KNOWN 9-11... <-- and if we killed everyone in germany we would have never had hitler.. your point is????

It is OUR responsability to elect the best person for the job. <--- well thats the problem.. we DON'T elect him

After that I'm sorry but your wrong the public has NO say whatsoever in the running of the country till 4 years later... that's why president's only are in office for 4 years... so if the public diagrees with him they can elect someone else...<-- NEWS FLASH.. we DON'T elect the president

If you think that the right to bare arms has ANYTHING to do with overtaking our OWN gov. your dumb.... sorry but that's the way it is.<-- site an example.. the right to bare arms garuntees us that the country will not turn into where the founders came from.. and that is a fact

Your only control over your gov. on a realtime basis is through your congress. Senators and Representitives HAVE to listen to there voting public.. they in turn impose those beliefs through law making and passing or not passing laws/bills.<-- they just lie to passify us like every other politician

If you tried to start an armed revolution against the president or his admistration or the Gov. in general YOU WOULD BE KILLED BY THE ARMY SO FAST YOU WOULDN'T HAVE TIME TO SAY JUST KIDDING.<--- and thats a shame..

Armed revolution IS NOT any part of the reason we have the right ot bare arms. Revolution from FORIEGN governments was. England was not our gov. that was our arguement.<-- you are wrong...

And the reason militia's and the right to bare arms were started was because the ENGLISH army was on there way here to kick our ass' into line.<-- you are STILL wrong...

And just so you know... a president acting in whatever fassion is not a monarchy... He still needs congress' approval and givin enough public outcry he could be impeached and deposed (if there is an impeachable crime).<-- i never said he was.. i IMPLYED that it is a fail safe against an all TOO powerfull gov.




People who don't understand what's going on love to sit there on there pedistal of piety while people suffer under saddam because of OUR inaction...<-- once again i BELIEVE he SHOULD be gone.. BUT i believe it is NOT our place...

And as far as this being a war for oil... PLEASE... If all of a sudden america was taking all of iraqs oil (or even some of it) without paying out the nose EVERYONE WOULD KNOW INSTANTLY.... It just wouldn't be stood for.... that's pure ignorance...<--i never said the word oil ever...

My sister is a BIGTIME protestor... she goes all around the world protesting this and that... the problem is when I ask her (or any other person) to explain her problems with whatever she's protesting she yammers off all the typical bullcrap then you ask her what she or any of the groups she belongs to thinks should be done instead... they have NO ideas... <-- im not a protestor.. i believe in JUST war.. in fact i participate in simulated war every weekend.. im not against guns.. im not against JUST violence.. im against us medeling in things without interneational approval...

I say sh*t or get of the pot if your intension is just to STOP things and not offer an alternative then shut up.

I'd go so far as to say 90% of the people who disagree with this war have NO understanding about what it's REALLY about and are just bandwagoneer's. <--- nor do you.. you have no reason to justify the bloodshed of american troops...

****And lastly.. did you read what i wrote.. we were a KEY contributer to who the "moster" saddam is.. he is our fault so MAYBE you guys are right.. maybe it is our job to clean it up.. since it is our fault hes there.. ****

[nonovurbizniz]

I'm the first one to say that bush Sr. was a slimey sack... he ran the goddam CIA for gods sake... obviously he's crooked...

Your point about the banks doesn't make any sense. (not enough of the story I don't get it.)

Duh we make back door deals... FOR GOOD REASONS. Iran under the Iotola Khomeini was FAR WORSE than saddam could or will ever be. There direct goal was to sell there oil for weapons to wage a war on the US. If you think it was a bad idea to fund the guy next to them who WAS far more controllable at the time then your dumb. What else should we have done. Declared holy war on Iran? Or waited for them to nuke us???

I did not read the post you were reffering to but just because we're guilty of something doesn't mean we have to sit by and watch other people do it.

If a judge loved sleeping with teenagers should he not convict child molesters because he's guilty too?? that doesn't make sense.

America has done all sorts of ATTROCIOUS things. that doesn't mean we should sit around an let other people do the same thing.

Look at nuclear proliferation... we're obviously guilty of producing MASSIVE amounts of plutonium depleted uranium nuclear bombs, generators, waste. Does that mean we shouldn't encourage other countries to NOT do the same retarded thing?

Like I've said... I do question everything... I am NO sheep.

This is something that should've been done a LONG time ago... sure it would've been best to never put him into power. But we were looking out for our own best interests...

If we had not supported Saddam in the early-mid eighties chances are we'd all be glowing green at this point. Iran was SERIOUS about destroying america... they created a TERRIBLE climate in the middle east.

If you want to ***** about american foriegn policy then complain about the fact that 90% of the money/hijackers came from Saudi Arabia who SUPRRESSES it's people yet we support that regime.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
You're saying not to be sheep then you say our leader should be one???????

no but im saying he should not run the country based on personal vendetta...


reply to what i wrote.. about bush senior.. and bushs grandad who funded nazi germany.. REPLY to that...

heres some REAL facts for you...

Furthermore, a 1942 U.S. government investigative report that surfaced during 1945 Senate hearings found that the Union Bank, with Prescott Bush on the board, was an "interlocking concern" with the German Steel Trust that had produced:

- 50.8% of Nazi Germany's pig iron

- 41.4% of Nazi Germany's universal plate

- 36% of Nazi Germany's heavy plate

- 38.5% of Nazi Germany's galvanized sheet

- 45.5% of Nazi Germany's pipes and tubes

- 22.1% of Nazi Germany's wire

- 35% of Nazi Germany's explosives


the bush family sure can pick them...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
I'm the first one to say that bush Sr. was a slimey sack... he ran the goddam CIA for gods sake... obviously he's crooked...

Your point about the banks doesn't make any sense. (not enough of the story I don't get it.)

Duh we make back door deals... FOR GOOD REASONS. Iran under the Iotola Khomeini was FAR WORSE than saddam could or will ever be. There direct goal was to sell there oil for weapons to wage a war on the US. If you think it was a bad idea to fund the guy next to them who WAS far more controllable at the time then your dumb. What else should we have done. Declared holy war on Iran? Or waited for them to nuke us???<--- NO he should not fund crazy third world countries... we SHOULD wage war on the DIRECT PROVEN THREAT... not do shadey shit that will bite us in the ass later..

I did not read the post you were reffering to but just because we're guilty of something doesn't mean we have to sit by and watch other people do it.

If a judge loved sleeping with teenagers should he not convict child molesters because he's guilty too?? that doesn't make sense.<-- no he should fine NOONE GUILTY.. he should ROTT IN JAIL, he being guilty himself puts him in no position to judge others... he should step down or be removed..

America has done all sorts of ATTROCIOUS things. that doesn't mean we should sit around an let other people do the same thing.

Look at nuclear proliferation... we're obviously guilty of producing MASSIVE amounts of plutonium depleted uranium nuclear bombs, generators, waste. Does that mean we shouldn't encourage other countries to NOT do the same retarded thing?<-- honestly.. YES.. it means how can we say you are wrong.. but its ok for us.. thats rediculous

Like I've said... I do question everything... I am NO sheep.<-- GOOD.. first one of the bunch..

This is something that should've been done a LONG time ago... sure it would've been best to never put him into power. But we were looking out for our own best interests... <-- this is nothing new.. dont you think we are accountable for doing that.. MAYBE JUST MAYBE.. we should wash our hands for once and bring to surface the REAL reason for war.. IF bush came clean and said LOOK dad ****ed up.. we NEED to go in and clean up the mess.. id be the first to support it.. BUT NO HE HAS TO BE AN ASSHOLE and hide it under the "war against terror" or wait whats the name this week.. lol

If we had not supported Saddam in the early-mid eighties chances are we'd all be glowing green at this point. Iran was SERIOUS about destroying america... they created a TERRIBLE climate in the middle east.<---it still gives us no right to sell our soles..

If you want to ***** about american foriegn policy then complain about the fact that 90% of the money/hijackers came from Saudi Arabia who SUPRRESSES it's people yet we support that regime. <-- could not agree with you more!

[nonovurbizniz]

So if your great grandfather was a slave trader your a bastard?

I guess people should also stop going to disney land and buying ford cars too right? cuz Henry ford had a picture of hitler on his desk and was an active supporter of Nazi interests foriegn and domestic. As was Walt Disney.

The beauty of a FREE COUNTRY is the lack of GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

If you want to go conpiracy theory on this thread then why not point out that ALL of our presidents (including clinton) since carter have been active members of the trilateral commision.

And that everytime they meet (in secret with press and visitors BANNED from the proceedings) and discuss things, those "things" start popping up all of the world and things they mention as "good ideas" become not just gov. but WORLD policy...

WTO... the formation of a palastinian state (just wait), NAFTA... etc etc...

[nonovurbizniz]

Oh and if you want bush sr. juice try this....

Before Ronald Reagan choose his running mate he was ADIMENT that GHB. was NOT an option because he was a member of the trilateral commision and one of Reagan's goals as president was to disclose what the group was all about.....

Unnexpectadly when the time to announce his running mate RR said Bush.

Did anyone else notice that Reagan had 2 attemps on his life in the first year of him being in office????

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
First off... the UN isn't looking out for anyone... if you think it's a cohesive organization that has common interests your wrong.... every person in the UN is out to protect there OWN interests.


That is why the UN is a waste of our time.

The chinese are in the UN, how can a commmunitst hellhole like that appreciate a capitalistic society like ours?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
So if your great grandfather was a slave trader your a bastard?

I guess people should also stop going to disney land and buying ford cars too right? cuz Henry ford had a picture of hitler on his desk and was an active supporter of Nazi interests foriegn and domestic. As was Walt Disney.

The beauty of a FREE COUNTRY is the lack of GUILT BY ASSOCIATION.

If you want to go conpiracy theory on this thread then why not point out that ALL of our presidents (including clinton) since carter have been active members of the trilateral commision.

And that everytime they meet (in secret with press and visitors BANNED from the proceedings) and discuss things, those "things" start popping up all of the world and things they mention as "good ideas" become not just gov. but WORLD policy...

WTO... the formation of a palastinian state (just wait), NAFTA... etc etc...

i would not put henry ford or walt disney in charge of the country.. lol

im SIMPLY saying that when we point at countries like iraq, and say he is an "evil" man and must be stopped.. we need to check ourselves...

and i go back to the age old in a glass house throwing rocks... good bad evil just, is ALL subjective.. i know personaly people who grew up living under a dictator (prince or king) and they all except that is there culture, and although there are things they do not like, they would NOT want there culture lost in (for example) a americanized India...

MY POINT IS SO SIMPLE.... we NEED to look at the REAL facts when assesing things.. THE REAL REASON WE ARE AT WAR...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
That is why the UN is a waste of our time.

The chinese are in the UN, how can a commmunitst hellhole like that appreciate a capitalistic society like ours?

WHY DO THEY HAVE TO..... you guys want to americanize the world don't you???:no: :rolleyes:

[oc civic]

Originally posted by cashizslick
That is why the UN is a waste of our time.

The chinese are in the UN, how can a commmunitst hellhole like that appreciate a capitalistic society like ours?

maybe youd like it if we started some american crusades throughout the world to americanize EVERYONE, and just kill all those who oppose.. whould you like that??? then we could all be the same... **** differant cultures, goverments, and races.. maybe we should FORCE specific breeding combos, so that ONLY one type of person exists.. would that make you happy?

[Zanza]

Originally posted by cashizslick
That is why the UN is a waste of our time.

The chinese are in the UN, how can a commmunitst hellhole like that appreciate a capitalistic society like ours?

Hey hey hey, thats a little for. If you've been paying attention to relations between China/N Korea you'd know that they don't appreciate N Korea's violation. They refuse to back them up if N Korea gets into a war.

Most of the UN except: America, UK, China, Australia have little to no interest about anything but themselves. These countries I just listed depend on each other...

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic
maybe youd like it if we started some american crusades throughout the world to americanize EVERYONE, and just kill all those who oppose.. whould you like that??? then we could all be the same... **** differant cultures, goverments, and races.. maybe we should FORCE specific breeding combos, so that ONLY one type of person exists.. would that make you happy?

We could do this stupid idea, or we could leave the rest of the world alone.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by oc civic

ALL OF YOU NEED TO STOP BEING ****ING SHEEP.... do a little digging.. formulate your OWN opinion..
:rolleyes:

Just because some people agree with Bush does not mean they are mindless puppets.

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by nonovurbizniz
Saddam has been spitting in our face since the gulf war... SHOOTING AT OUR JETS that patrol the no fly zone... I don't know about you but that's an act of war to me... continuing on the path toward nuclear weapons.. furthering his biological and chemical programs and TORTURING HIS POPULATION.

**** him he's got to go... If you want a gov to revolt against try the Iraqi one. ours isn't doing ALL that bad. (well ok it is but that's just an election away)

Funney how some people on this board see Saddam as a guy who is no threat to us and has no problem with Americans.

[nonovurbizniz]

I don't agree with bush... I didn't vote for him and wouldn't EVER.... but I'm sure glad we're finally ousting that F*ckball.

[oc civic]

theres no arguing saddam is bad in referance to OUR culture, the ONLY argument is where our juristiction ends... when we start intentionaly changing governments around the world, subsequently altering cultures.. i guess my concern is where does it end...

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by oc civic
theres no arguing saddam is bad in referance to OUR culture, the ONLY argument is where our juristiction ends... when we start intentionaly changing governments around the world, subsequently altering cultures.. i guess my concern is where does it end...
can a nation stand by and allow a leader to murder his people? It is when all other efforts have been used and failed that war must be used.
Lets not forget its been 10 years of trying to change the country, 10 years of BS from saddam and hidden weapons. Need I remind you that he wasn't supposed to have those scuds that he fired recently.

When this is all over we're going to hear stories that are similar to the ones from ww2. I'm not joking, I dont know what type of news you get in the US but from what i've been reading and hearing from people who fled Iraq this man is pure evil. Rape rooms where women are rapped infront of their families in attempts to try and get information out of them. The beating to death of people who think saddam could do things differently. The list goes on and I would rather not type this all out... do your research people, whats happening now HAD to be done.... full stop end of story.

How about this, you dont have the right to b!tch about this because your ass is safely planted in the USA! The only people that have the right to b!tch and protest are the ones called up to service. The rest of you should shut your F U CKING mouths and be thankful someones doing your dirty work.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
can a nation stand by and allow a leader to murder his people? It is when all other efforts have been used and failed that war must be used.
Lets not forget its been 10 years of trying to change the country, 10 years of BS from saddam and hidden weapons. Need I remind you that he wasn't supposed to have those scuds that he fired recently.

When this is all over we're going to hear stories that are similar to the ones from ww2. I'm not joking, I dont know what type of news you get in the US but from what i've been reading and hearing from people who fled Iraq this man is pure evil. Rape rooms where women are rapped infront of their families in attempts to try and get information out of them. The beating to death of people who think saddam could do things differently. The list goes on and I would rather not type this all out... do your research people, whats happening now HAD to be done.... full stop end of story.

How about this, you dont have the right to b!tch about this because your ass is safely planted in the USA! The only people that have the right to b!tch and protest are the ones called up to service. The rest of you should shut your F U CKING mouths and be thankful someones doing your dirty work.


WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP FORGETTING THAT WE (specifically the bush family **bush senior**) PUT SADDAM WHERE HES AT......

AND no one is doing "MY DIRTY WORK" they are doing the bush family dirty work.. cleaning up a BUSH family mistake... i didn't vote for EITEHER bush, and i SURE as hell did not vote to send money and weapons to saddam... SSSOOO... its not MY DIRTY WORK...and youd rather not type it all out because you dont know... i dont know either..



anyone here know what the word propaganda means?

[Racing Rice]

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date: 1718
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
- pro·pa·gan·dist /-dist/ noun or adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·tic /-"gan-'dis-tik/ adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

[oc civic]

1. Adams, James. Florida. Adams was convicted of first-degree murder, sentenced to death, and executed in 1984. A witness identified Adams as driving the car away from the victim's home shortly after the crime. This witness, however, was driving a large truck in the direction opposite to that of Adams' car, and it was later discovered that this witness was angry with Adams for allegedly dating his wife. A second witness the day after the crime stated that the fleeing person was positively not Adams. A hair sample found clutched in the victim's hand, which in all likelihood had come from the assailant, did not match Adams’ hair.

2. Anderson, William Henry. Florida Anderson was convicted of the rape of a white woman, sentenced to death, and executed in 1945 without an appeal having been made. The victim had not resisted, screamed, or used an available pistol to resist Anderson's advances. Anderson and the victim had been consensually intimate for several months before rape charges were filed.

3. Applegate, Everett. New York. Applegate was convicted, with Francis Q. Creighton, of the murder of Applegate's wife; both were sentenced to death in 1936. Creighton had been tried and acquitted on two separate occasions for similar murders a dozen years before she met Applegate. In this case, she killed the victim (by arsenic poisoning) at Applegate's instigation. "Virtually no evidence against Applegate existed beyond Mrs. Creighton's unsupported word." Governor Herbert Lehman, who had doubts about Applegat's guilt, requested the prosecutor's support for clemency for Applegate; it was not forthcoming, and clemency was denied.

4. Bambrick, Thomas. New York. Bambrick was convicted of murder, and sentenced to death. Evidence was later discovered that convinced Warden Thomas Mott Osbourne and the prison chaplain that another man had committed the crime. Osbourne commented "It is almost as certain that Bambrick is innocent as that the sun will rise tomorrow."

5-6. Becker, Charles and Frank ("Dago") Cirofici. New York. Becker and Cirofici were convicted of murder; Cirofici was executed in 1914 and Becker in 1915. The victim, Rosenthal, was a gambling house owner. He was convicted largely on the testimony of gamblers and ex-convicts in the glare of extensive newspaper publicity about police corruption. Former Sing Sing warden, Thomas Mott Osbourne, who knew the closet friends of the gunmen, stated that these friends all agreed Cirofici had nothing to do with the murder and was not even present when it occurred. Warden Osbourne also believed that Becker was not guilty.

7. Collins, Roosevelt. Alabama. Collins was convicted of rape, sentenced to death, and executed in 1937. Collins testified that the victim the "victim" had consented, which caused a near-riot in the courtroom. The all-white jury deliberated for only four minutes. Subsequent interviews with several jurors revealed that although they believed the act was consensual, they also thought Collins deserved to death simply for "messin’ around" with a white woman. Even the judge, off the record, admitted his belief that Collins was telling the truth. "An innocent man went to his death."

8. Dawson, Sie. Florida. Dawson was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death. The conviction by an all-white male jury was based on a confession obtained from Dawson after he had spent more then a week in custody without the assistance of counsel and on an accusation by the victim's husband. Dawson had an I.Q. of 64. At trial, Dawson repudiated his confession, claiming it was given only because "the white officers told him to say he killed Mrs. Clayton or they'd give him to "the mob’ outside." There were no eyewitnesses and the circumstantial evidence was slight and inconclusive.

9. Garner, Vance. Alabama. With Jack Hunter and Will Johnson, Garner was convicted of murder and sentenced to death. No appeals were undertaken. Garner had maintained his complete innocence, while Hunter admitted his own guilt and absolved both Garner and Johnson. Johnson's sentence was later commuted to life, but Garner was executed in 1905.

10-11. Grezchowiak, Stephen and Max Rybarczyk. New York. Grezchowiak and Rybarczyk were both convicted of felony murder and sentenced to death. Co-defendant Alexander Bogdanoff insisted that neither Grezchowiak nor Rybarczyk had been involved in the crime, and that each had been mistakenly identified by the eyewitnesses. He refused, however, to reveal the names of his true accomplices. In their final words, they maintained their innocence, and Bogdanoff again declared that the two were innocent.

12. Hauptmann, Bruno Richard. New Jersey. Hauptmann was convicted of felony-murder-burglary, sentenced to death, and executed in 1936. He was infamous as the ransom-kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby. Although Governor Hoffman believed that Hauptmann was framed, he chose not to halt the execution. There is no doubt that the conviction rested in part on corrupt prosecutorial practices, suppression of evidence, intimidation of witnesses, prejured testimony, and Hauptmann's prior record.

13. Hill, Joe. Utah. Hill was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of two storekeepers. The prosecution was based on sketchy circumstantial evidence and was in part the result of collusion between the prosecution and the trial judge in an atmosphere of anti-union hostility. Despite several appeals from President Woodrow Wilson to the Utah authorities for a reprieve, Hill was denied a new trial. Hill appears to have been an innocent victim of "politics, finance and organized religion, a powerful trinity"; his conviction and death are "one of the worst travesties of justice in American labor history."

14. Lamble, Harold. New Jersey. Lamble was convicted and sentenced to death. After the execution, Governor Edward Edwards refused requests to appoint a special counsel to investigate the case, despite what the New York Times called a "rather widespread fear that perhaps" Lamble was innocent. Lamble's attorney was disbarred for mishandling the defense.

15. Mays, Maurice F. Tennessee. Mays was convicted of murder in the killing of a white woman and sentenced to death. Mays’ conviction rested on the testimony of a police officer who had disliked him for years and on the testimony of an eyewitness who never got a clear look at the killer. On appeal, the conviction was reversed because the judge, rather than the jury, had fixed the penalty at death. Mays was retried, reconvicted, and resentenced to death. In 1922, Mays was executed, still maintaining his innocence. In 1926, the real killer confessed in a written statement that revealed she was a white woman who had dressed up as a black man to kill the woman with whom her husband was having an affair.

16. McGee, Willie. Mississippi. McGee was convicted of the rape of a white woman and sentenced to death by an all-white jury that deliberated for only two and a half minutes. the chief evidence against him was a coerced confession that he gave after being held incommunicado for thirty-two days after his arrest; the victim's husband and her two children, asleep in the next room, never heard any commotion from the alleged attack. The victim had been consorting with McGee for four years and was angry at his efforts to terminate their relationship. Nonetheless, local blacks were too intimidated to give this evidence in court, and local whites felt the woman's consent was impossible or irrelevant. McGee was executed in 1951.

17-18. Sacco, Nicola, and Bartolomeo Vanzetti. Massachusetts. Sacco and Vanzetti were convicted of murder in the course of armed robbery, sentenced to death, and executed in 1927. Their case is probably the most controversial death penalty case in this century. They were arrested and tired in an atmosphere dominated by "the Red Scare" of the early 1920s. In 1925, another man also under the death sentence in Massachusetts confessed to the crime. Extensive investigation of the confession convinced many that he was, indeed, telling the truth. In 1926, the trial judge denied motions for a retrial based on the confession. In 1977, on the occasion of the fiftieth anniversary of the executions, Governor Dukakis signed a carefully worded proclamation intended to remove "any stigma and disgrace" from their names.

19. Sanders, Albert. Alabama. Sanders was convicted with Fisher Brooks of murder and sentenced to death. Though he had nothing to gain by helping Sanders, Brooks testified at Sander's trial that Sanders was innocent. Another fellow prisoner testified that he had heard Sanders confess, however, and both Brooks and Sanders were executed in 1918. In a statement from the scaffold, Brooks again insisted on Sanders’ innocence.

20. Sberna, Charles. New York. Sberna was convicted of first-degree murder of a police officer. His codefendant, Salvatore Gati, testified at the trial that Sberna was innocent. Gati also said the head of the New York Homicide Bureau had told him that he knew Sberna was innocent, and would clear his name if Gati would reveal the name of his real accomplices. Gati refused to do this. Sberna and Gati were both wrongfully executed in 1938. The prison chaplain said of Sberna, "This is the first time I’ve ever been positive that an innocent man was going to the chair."

21. Shumway, R. Mead. Nebraska. Shumway was convicted of the first-degree murder of his employer's wife on circumstantial evidence and sentenced to death. One juror, the only one to hold out against the death penalty, told his friends he "had not slept well any night since the trial." He later left a note in which he expressed "great worry at the trial," and he then killed himself. In 1910, the victim's husband confessed on his deathbed that he had murdered his wife.

22. Tucker, Charles Louis. Massachusetts. Tucker was convicted of first-degree murder and sentenced to death in 1905. More than 100,000 Massachusetts residents signed petitions on behalf of clemency. Among those convinced of his innocence was the county medical examiner and a clergyman who said a witness had told him she perjured herself at the original trial. Tucker was nonetheless executed in 1906.

23. Wing, George Chew. New York. Wing was convicted of first-degree murder (after a 30-minute trial) and sentenced to death. While he was in prison awaiting execution, Wing convinced several observers that he had been falsely identified by eyewitnesses and that perjured testimony had been used against him. Warden Lewis Lawes also questioned his guilt, but Wing was nonetheless executed in 1937.


heres 23 INNOCENT people our US legal system WRONGLY put to DEATH.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by Racing Rice
Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date: 1718
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
- pro·pa·gan·dist /-dist/ noun or adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·tic /-"gan-'dis-tik/ adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

good job....;)

[Racing Rice]

Originally posted by oc civic
good job....;)

It was rough but I managed.. ;)

[oc civic]

yeah we don't rape and torture our own people when they disagree.. we just kill them.. lol

[Wren57]

i havent read every post because that would take too long but I read the last few pages and I can't believe the nonsense some of you people say. Where does our jurisdiction end? Hello, people are being killed if they don't vote a certain way in Iraq, but I guess we should be ignorant and ignore the problem and it will just go away. Wake up little girl, the world is becoming more and more globalized by the day and we must change our policies to embrace this globalization or get left behind and destroyed by rogue nations. If this doesn't convince you, how about the Iraqi troops surrendering and the townpeople dancing in the streets as US troops roll through... yeah they definately love Saddam:rolleyes: ... get an education, then we'll talk

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
i havent read every post because that would take too long but I read the last few pages and I can't believe the nonsense some of you people say. Where does our jurisdiction end? Hello, people are being killed if they don't vote a certain way in Iraq, but I guess we should be ignorant and ignore the problem and it will just go away. Wake up little girl, the world is becoming more and more globalized by the day and we must change our policies to embrace this globalization or get left behind and destroyed by rogue nations. If this doesn't convince you, how about the Iraqi troops surrendering and the townpeople dancing in the streets as US troops roll through... yeah they definately love Saddam:rolleyes: ... get an education, then we'll talk

maybe you should learn how to read... i said IM NOT SAYING HE SHOULD NOT BE OUT OF OFFICE...but i also don't think him being removed from power is worth killing our trrops.. get an education??? HOW DID HE GET TO WHERE HES AT?? do you know our role in his advances???

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
people are being killed if they don't vote a certain way in Iraq

yeah we are much smarter.. we figured we will just let people vote and have it not matter.. lol we say "ok american people who do you want for president" and they say "NOT BUSH.. " lol and the government says "OK thank's for voting.. introducing the NEW president of the united states george bush.."

but hey.. at least we don't kill people;)

[oc civic]

Protest rage grows over Mugabe militia rape, torture camps
March 23 2003
The Sun-Herald





Zimbabwe's Movement for Democratic Change yesterday vowed to escalate mass action to force President Robert Mugabe's government to reform or leave office as new and horrifying details of young girls being held in "rape camps" emerged.

A two-day national strike late last week was the biggest protest for more than two years against Mr Mugabe's 23-year rule, closing factories, shops, banks and other businesses in protest at alleged human rights abuses and the economic decline.

As the strike ended, reports emerged of rape being used as a political weapon by the youth militia and other groups allied to the country's ruling party, said human rights workers and church groups.

Investigations reveal allegations of politically motivated rape against opposition supporters.

According to victims' testimony, Mr Mugabe's militia are also forcing young women to be their concubines.


Zimbabwe's human rights forum reports seven cases of politically motivated rape last year, as well as 58 murders and 1061 cases of torture. But the reported rapes, verified by medical examinations and interviews, are just the tip of the iceberg, human rights workers say.

"There is a serious problem of political rape in Zimbabwe," said Tony Reeler, human rights defender for the Institute for Democratic Alternatives for Southern Africa. "The documented cases are low, but there is considerable stigma and fear about reporting rape. From enormous anecdotal evidence we know the number is much higher.

"The victims are mostly young females, relatively uneducated, poor, rural, the most vulnerable members of society. Many urgently require antiretrovirals for HIV infection."

The trauma of rape is evident in the dull gaze of Sithulisiwe, 21. For eight months she was held captive at a "youth camp" for Mr Mugabe's ruling Zanu-PF party, where, she says, she was repeatedly gang raped and tortured. She said she was abducted in December 2001 and marched to a camp in a Bulawayo suburb.

"It was surrounded by security guards so we could not get out," she said. "There were hundreds of us. We were fed horse meat and rotten food. They woke us up at 3am and we had to run 20 kilometres. Then we had to do 200 press-ups and other exercises. If anyone failed to do so, they were beaten. We had to chant slogans and sing Zanu-PF songs.

"They taught us the history of our country, starting from colonial slavery, and they told us we should hate whites. We slept in large rooms, the men and women together. We were raped by the boys. I can't even count how many times by how many different men. If we complained to the camp commander, we were beaten."

Sithulisiwe says she felt sorry for the young girls, of just 12 and 13, picked out, by the camp commander and taken to a nearby hotel to be raped. Her voice is flat and only when she talks to her five-month-old child does her face light up. "I have named her Nokthula, which means peace. I want her to find peace - imagine, I do not even know who her father is."

Sithulisiwe and others were caught trying to escape. She says they were buried up to their necks. "We were beaten and thought we'd be killed, but the camp commander rescued us. They made us roll in mud, then would not let us take a bath."

The camp closed in July last year. Many of the youths went to government training camps and Sithulisiwe was sent away. Aided by a church group, she and other women then reported the rapes at Hillside police station near Bulawayo.

"Then the doctor gave me a blood test. He told me I was HIV-positive."

Her story has been independently verified. This month she testified at a service led by Archbishop Pius Ncube at the Bulawayo Catholic cathedral. People across Zimbabwe told of rape and torture at the hands of Zanu-PF.

"We have several reports of gang rapes and beatings at the youth militia camps," said a human rights worker. "The camps have become centres of torture and sexual abuse. Reports are made to police but they take virtually no action."

Zimbabwe's police deny this. "Irrespective of whether they are political cases or not, if they are true rape cases then we will investigate them," said Wayne Bvudzijena, an assistant commissioner. He was not aware of reports of rape at the Bulawayo camps.

But investigations have revealed other accounts of politically motivated sexual violence.

Rebecca, 36, says youth militia dragged her from her home in eastern Zimbabwe. "They beat me, saying I wanted to give the country back to whites. Six guys raped me. These people threatened to kill me and my family. I am afraid I may be infected with HIV."

Sarah, 22, from central Zimbabwe, tells how Zanu-PF youth attacked the homestead where she farmed. "They burned our house and destroyed everything we owned. They beat me, even though I had our baby on my back. They took my baby away. They beat the soles of my feet. Then, they raped me."









SO guys when are we gonna attack Zimbabwe.. i mean we ARE in the business of freeing the worlds oppressed now??? and eliminating torture pain and rape...

SO i ask again.. when does it stop??? do we invade zimbabwe??

[Racing Rice]

Woohoo lets do it tomorrow!!:o

[ChrisCantSkate]

im free wensday :cool:

[AzCivic]

15 pages, maybe someday I'll read all of it.

If you all are still ranting on and on about the damn war and how you dont like it, get over it. Its happening now deal with it.

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Ok...so I got to the end of page 8 and I had to stop reading. We're never all gonna agree about this topic...but as "Americans" we should ALL be supporting our troops that are fighting in Iraq. I'm not a huge fan of war or fighting and think that things should be handled in a diplomatic fashion at all costs ("war" should be an absolute last option). The US put Saddam in power and he turned into an oppressive dictator...we are now trying to "fix" that by our creatively named "Operation Iraqi Freedom". Notice I DIDN'T call it a war. That is not "officially" what it is. Bush NEVER once said in his address to the nation that he was declaring war on Iraq. So what is currently going on in Iraq is NOT a war...I repeat NOT A WAR. So...I really wish everyone would stop calling it a war and call it what it really is...."a liberating of the Iraqi people"


I'm the first one that wants Saddam out of power (and a few choice others mentioned previously that I won't go into) but my question is....do the Iraqi citizens really want to be "liberated" by the Americans? From what I understand...I highly doubt it.


*oh and just a side note....NO one in this thread has a right to get on another person's @ss for spelling errors.

[JTsn2Bfst]

Hell yeah if wut oc civic said was true, I think we should attack Zimbabwe's govt.. I know we can't fix everything in the world but if we have the power to fix such large attrocities(sp) I think we should.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by JTsn2Bfst
Hell yeah if wut oc civic said was true, I think we should attack Zimbabwe's govt.. I know we can't fix everything in the world but if we have the power to fix such large attrocities(sp) I think we should.

zimbabwe is JUST one.. the list is huge.. there are MORE countries than you can imagine that are like zimbabwe...

i personaly would rather clean up our major citys and provide for our own than wage war on zimbabwe (just an example)

[oc civic]

i personaly think that us having homeless starving people, AND 1.4million dollar bombs is REDICULOUS...

[cashizslick]

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX

*oh and just a side note....NO one in this thread has a right to get on another person's @ss for spelling errors.

Yeah, al yu KCnkuckleheads knead tooo lern how 2 spel !

True that, i shouldnt talk - i even spelled college (colledge) wrong and im in college

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Originally posted by oc civic
zimbabwe is JUST one.. the list is huge.. there are MORE countries than you can imagine that are like zimbabwe...

i personaly would rather clean up our major citys and provide for our own than wage war on zimbabwe (just an example)

Not to make this a political thing....but this is just an observation....but I'd be shocked if you told me you weren't a Democrat.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX
Not to make this a political thing....but this is just an observation....but I'd be shocked if you told me you weren't a Democrat.

you pegged me a LITTLE wrong.. ;)

not some tree hugging hippie.. IN FACT i belive in needed war, in FACT, i play paintball every weekend (which some argue is SIMULATED war), im very against overbearing gun control, and do not believe the solution to the worlds problems is a big hug and recycling.. lol

i can HONESTLY say i have sided with democratic AND republican feelings depending on the issue... i don't belive now a days you can honestly say you are one or the other... ALTHOUGH a guess id be MORE for democrats than republicans.. but its a pretty even split..

[ebpda9]

maybe i should say something about the issue. i wasn't born here for those that didn't know. I lived for about 9 years under communism, and ofcourse i think i was too young to undertsand some things, but i tell you this for sure that the ppl of iraq cannot free themselves. the fall of communism in romania many say it was because of the popular revolt, but in fact it was an american hand in there. not war but with the help of inteligence. and when it all started guess where ceasusecu was ??? iraq then he came back and got caught, then shot. anyway because romania and iraq were very close countries since iraq had a lot of contacts with the romanian factoris and i know someone who worked in there, and made the solid fuel for their missiles, and if one batch of fuel went kaboom it would have wiped everything on a 70km radius. after '90 i really don't know what happened because the factory became an army factory and everyone working there had to have security clearance

[DsBlu01CivEX]

Originally posted by oc civic
you pegged me a LITTLE wrong.. ;)

not some tree hugging hippie.. IN FACT i belive in needed war, in FACT, i play paintball every weekend (which some argue is SIMULATED war), im very against overbearing gun control, and do not believe the solution to the worlds problems is a big hug and recycling.. lol

i can HONESTLY say i have sided with democratic AND republican feelings depending on the issue... i don't belive now a days you can honestly say you are one or the other... ALTHOUGH a guess id be MORE for democrats than republicans.. but its a pretty even split..

I'd have to agree with ya there....you're arguments sound more "democratic" than the rest though....that's all I was sayin.

[cashizslick]

This thread is real long. . . . . .

Anyways, i have been watching CNN eversince this thread started, and i'd have to say that this imbedded reporting strategy is doing a good job keeping people informed.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by DsBlu01CivEX

I'm the first one that wants Saddam out of power (and a few choice others mentioned previously that I won't go into) but my question is....do the Iraqi citizens really want to be "liberated" by the Americans? From what I understand...I highly doubt it.


Well it looks like the people are trying to rebel against the saddam regime and look what their army is doing...killing them. So i guess you cant judge whether or not the Iraqi people want to be liberated without living there under Saddam's rule with constant fear of being killed.

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by AzCivic
Well it looks like the people are trying to rebel against the saddam regime and look what their army is doing...killing them. So i guess you cant judge whether or not the Iraqi people want to be liberated without living there under Saddam's rule with constant fear of being killed.


yeah, true that. i know that happened in 1989 in Romania