arrested for wearing peace shirts in mal

[Spazum888]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=514&ncid=514&e=8&u=/ap/20030305/ap_on_re_us/mall_activists_5

just when you thought people were stupid..... they prove they are even more stupid then we thought.

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Man, that's pretty messed up :no:

[ebpda9]

that's nuts . what happened to the free US ?

[msvtec14]

Ok, I read this on Fox News this morning too and it really confused me. Why would they be asked to take these shirts off? I just really don't get it. It's not like the guy was wearing a shirt that said F*CK YOURSELF or something.

[Spazum888]

well see its a private establishment..... and i guess they had "problems" before with people expressing how they felt. they only problem i see here is people being too up tight... let them wear the shit. let them do their thing, then go home... but to arrest them? thats pretty low.

[msvtec14]

Yeah, that was pretty uncool to arrest them. Some people have nothing better to do though. It's like in my town, I'll get pulled over for nothing really at all but then I'll have the most eloborate ticket writted. Poor guy. He was just trying to keep the peace.

[ford50forlife]

Originally posted by msvtec14
Ok, I read this on Fox News this morning too and it really confused me. Why would they be asked to take these shirts off? I just really don't get it. It's not like the guy was wearing a shirt that said F*CK YOURSELF or something.

ROFLMFAO so true, this just doesnt make any sense whatsoever.

and mall being private property? i find that funny too although true

[JTsn2Bfst]

That's sad. To see a day like that is to preview the demise of man

[ifeldwn02]

makes u wonder if u were to wear something someone didnt like and u didnt think it would be offinsive would they try to arrest u

[KwikR6]

Dudes people are so stupid....
This is the gheyest thing I've ever seen

[ChrisCantSkate]

thats so messed up. i'll leave it at that

[oc civic]

not the fault of the police.. the mall sucks for what they did BUT it was all perfectly legal (i think) see teh mall along with just about every other business IS private property... and well they CAN ask you to leave for any reason as far as i can see... the guys HAVE to leave if asked.. the police were simply doing there job.. which is to enforce the law... it WAS tresspassing as described by NJ state law.. entering somewhere or remaining to occupy after beign asked to leave.. so although rediculous.. i believe it IS just..

[armyguy5]

Hey well i guess people do have a right to wear whatever they want and say whatever they want. But what happens when we get attacked again? what will we think of those people....200 years ago that would have been treason....But also why do they care? their not on the front lines...they didn't stick up their right hand and swear to defend the constitution of the united states...they dont give up their rights so that other people can have theirs. And actors...wtf....why do they give a sh!t....they'll still make their millions of dollars and never see the soil of another country...they wont risk their lives..give up their families...many of us do this every day. I'll be damned if i'm gonna swear to give my life up for someone who wants to sh!t on me every chance they get....and as for college students protesting....many of the people are in the military because they cant afford college...so use your time wisely and go to class and dont worry about what we do.....feel lucky that you had money to get an eduction and didn't have to put your life on the line to get it. This whole subject just pisses me the **** off

chris

[ebpda9]

Originally posted by armyguy5
Hey well i guess people do have a right to wear whatever they want and say whatever they want. But what happens when we get attacked again? what will we think of those people....200 years ago that would have been treason....But also why do they care? their not on the front lines...they didn't stick up their right hand and swear to defend the constitution of the united states...they dont give up their rights so that other people can have theirs. And actors...wtf....why do they give a sh!t....they'll still make their millions of dollars and never see the soil of another country...they wont risk their lives..give up their families...many of us do this every day. I'll be damned if i'm gonna swear to give my life up for someone who wants to sh!t on me every chance they get....and as for college students protesting....many of the people are in the military because they cant afford college...so use your time wisely and go to class and dont worry about what we do.....feel lucky that you had money to get an eduction and didn't have to put your life on the line to get it. This whole subject just pisses me the **** off

chris


wow for the last part. i guess i never saw it that way.

[armyguy5]

no one ever does

chris

[OPAKRACING]

i am totaly for the war....of course i would choose no war....but sometimes its necessary...liek with this situation, sadaam has been leader long enough, and he could be a possible help to al qaeda. everyone says he's not, but whatever. their too smart to not help eachother.

[blind34_1]

wow. just another example of how our moronic government is slowly sucking away all of our rights, even free speech, in the name of so-called freedom. Private property is only useful when you allow the general public into it. Deciding you can and cannot enter based on appearance is completly wrong. Mall security was out of line in making the call that they need to leave because somebody might not like what is on their shirts. ridiculous.

[msvtec14]

Here is a little update for you fine gentleman and ladies.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80413,00.html

[blind34_1]

thats right...:yes:

[msvtec14]

Originally posted by blind34_1
thats right...:yes:

The update? Or that you're all fine gentleman and ladies?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by armyguy5
Hey well i guess people do have a right to wear whatever they want and say whatever they want. But what happens when we get attacked again? what will we think of those people....200 years ago that would have been treason....But also why do they care? their not on the front lines...they didn't stick up their right hand and swear to defend the constitution of the united states...they dont give up their rights so that other people can have theirs. And actors...wtf....why do they give a sh!t....they'll still make their millions of dollars and never see the soil of another country...they wont risk their lives..give up their families...many of us do this every day. I'll be damned if i'm gonna swear to give my life up for someone who wants to sh!t on me every chance they get....and as for college students protesting....many of the people are in the military because they cant afford college...so use your time wisely and go to class and dont worry about what we do.....feel lucky that you had money to get an eduction and didn't have to put your life on the line to get it. This whole subject just pisses me the **** off

chris


you claim to fight for freedom but are bitter about people being able to freely express opinion.. ironic isn't it

lmfao

[oc civic]

Originally posted by OPAKRACING
and he could be a possible help to al qaeda. everyone says he's not, but whatever.


there were US citizens that aided the terrorist as well... they were trained at some US flight school... maybe the US shold drop a nuclear bomb on the citys that house the airstrips the terrorists learned on that would sure teach them dumb americans that they can't mess with us smart americans..

[oc civic]

Originally posted by blind34_1
wow. just another example of how our moronic government is slowly sucking away all of our rights, even free speech, in the name of so-called freedom. Private property is only useful when you allow the general public into it. Deciding you can and cannot enter based on appearance is completly wrong. Mall security was out of line in making the call that they need to leave because somebody might not like what is on their shirts. ridiculous.

what exactly are you TRYING to say here?

i will TRY to reply... but my answer will be limited because im confused by what you wrote

Originally posted by blind34_1
wow. just another example of how our moronic government is slowly sucking away all of our rights, even free speech, in the name of so-called freedom.
the government had absolutely no authority in this... the police ONLY enforced LAW... the people were asked to leave they didn't.. so they were arrested... there was no law passed to violate rights or anything of the sort.. if you come in to my store with something I find offensive and ask you to leave you have to..

Originally posted by blind34_1
Private property is only useful when you allow the general public into it.
i get great use out of my home (private property) and i don't let the general public into it...

Originally posted by blind34_1
Deciding you can and cannot enter based on appearance is completly wrong. WHY??? why do i not have the freedom as a business owner to decide that in my 5 star resturaunt that flip flops shorts and a tshirt is inadiquate?? why would that be wrong??? it is up to the shop owners descretion to decide what is acceptable...

Originally posted by blind34_1
Mall security was out of line in making the call that they need to leave because somebody might not like what is on their shirts. ridiculous. Security was carrying out the orders of the management (perfectly leagal)

[ChrisCantSkate]

as much as i am all for freedom of speech, this was a case on owners and excersising their rights to control their property. i dont agree with the reason for their arrest, but it was perfectly legal. they were asked to leave, and they didnt. ive been through many trespassing warrents with cops from skating. the mall droped the case because they dont want to look like they are limiting freedom of speech, but look at it this way....

a person is in your home, says something against your beliefs and insults you, you ask them to leave, they dont, you call thge cops and have them taken away, then the world hears about it and you look like a moron for doing it, you'll ask the charges to be droped too

[armyguy5]

hey OC i gave up my rights so that u can have yours...i have the basic rights that everyone else has...but do u think i get the freedom of speech? freedom to do whatever i want...no...i do fight for freedom and when 3,000 plus people die from terrorism somethings wrong...and people still want peace....what will happen when we get attacked next..will it be okay becuase we just want peace? will we not care about our fallen brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, and uncles? will we not remember how they died?

chris

[oc civic]

Originally posted by armyguy5
hey OC i gave up my rights so that u can have yours...i have the basic rights that everyone else has...but do u think i get the freedom of speech? freedom to do whatever i want...no...i do fight for freedom and when 3,000 plus people die from terrorism somethings wrong...and people still want peace....what will happen when we get attacked next..will it be okay becuase we just want peace? will we not care about our fallen brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, aunts, and uncles? will we not remember how they died?

chris
How did you give up your rights???? is that because when you become military personal they brainwash you to such an extent that you no longer can think for yourself?

Right people DID die from terrorism.. But did the army of Iraq attack us? Or did a right wing militant group attack us... DO NOT get confused.. I was ALL for war with Afghanistan TO ELIMINATE the strong terrorist threat in that nation (I was for a war against people responsible). There was a LARGE ground force there, AND it was a justified act ... there is still (for the ONE-MILLIONTH TIME) no LOGICAL reason to attack Iraq...

[spoogenet]

Military personnel do not enjoy the same rights to free speech as the general public do. Think of it this way. You can call your boss a d*ckhead and he can't legally fire you for it if you're proficient in your work, etc. He can't really do a whole lot against you. Things are different in the military, it is strictly forbidden to violate rank. The day you see a seargent call a general a d*ckhead is the day you see a general eat some seargent ass for breakfast, dinner, and lunch. The military is a different world than the civilian one, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Your boss can ask you to do something and you can refuse. Maybe he can fire you for not doing your job, but big woop. In the military if your boss gives an order, it's your ass if you don't carry it out. You don't get to sit around and ask "Why? Why? Why?" all day, you do it or you're in deep shiznit. Getting fired from work isn't a biggie. Getting reprimanded in the military is, even worse getting a dishonorable discharge is very harsh and follows you for life.

On the war thing, much respect to the military for their sacrifices. Being a servicemember is a very important and demanding job that many of us quite frankly aren't cut out for. Most civilians don't have a very good understanding of the military and sh*t on servicemen and servicewomen for no good reason. Military personnel deserve the utmost respect from civilians, it's unfortunate they don't get it.

That said, I'm very opposed to war. I think it'll do more harm than good to our country now and in the future. I think it'll harm our economy even more than it has and accelerate plans for terrorist attacks. I strongly believe that large and at the very least psychologically devastating terrorist attacks on US soil are only a matter of time and will happen again, however I believe they will happen sooner if we attack Iraq without very strong international backing from Western AND Arabic countries. I think Bush is making very many big mistakes that will stick with America for a long time to come and will cost us dearly. I don't believe the 9/11 attacks were unprovoked or unexpected. I am actually surprised it took that long, ask me in 1994 what I expected to happen in the future and 9/11 is basically part of it. America will continue to be attacked until we, as a country, seek out the reasons for hatred and address them in an appropriate manner. Every person who speaks out trying to understand the reasons is just blasted as being anti-American and a terrorist-sympathizer. America always prided itself on difference, openness, and free speech. I am seeing the exact opposite in America today. We have truly regressed.

If we enter a conflict with Iraq, you won't hear me speaking out against it during the conflict. Whether our military should be somewhere or not doesn't change the fact that the military needs the support of the American people. There is nothing worse than coming home to a disrespectful public when you were just doing your job. Just like the police who arrested the guy in the mall should get no disrespect neither should the military. For all we know the cops support the guy in the shirt and the military personnel are against war. Regardless of their opinions they are both charged with upholding the duties of their jobs and following orders, rules, and regulations whether they like it or not.

b

[spoogenet]

In the last paragraph I don't mean "just doing their job" as stated. Pardon me, it's much more like "when you're not only doing your job but also risking your life and even the well-being of your family."

Again, much respect to the men and women of the services.

In case anybody's wondering, I'm an AF brat. If I had my way with things I'd probably be flying over Iraqi airspace right now in a fighter, but not everybody grows up to be what they wanted as a kid.

b

[blind34_1]

boy didnt take long for oc civic to tear apart someones arguement, i was wating for it!

What I meant was the government sucking away all of our rights is somewhat proportional to so called "citizen vigilance" and fake patriotism. The security guards felt that it was their duty as "true americans" to support this ridiculous war. government has a huge peace in what happend here. however, if you dont want to look at the big picture, then yes the police made a legal move.

when I said private property, I meant private property that only exists for the sole purpose of having the public patronize it. I'm assuming your house isnt a store front, so that obviosly doesnt apply to you.

and when I said deciding who can and cannot enter is wrong. I meant to indicate that someone toting a message cannot/should not be ousted. appearance does matter, because like you said certain places have standards. But considering in this case, that it was a mall, where ho's can wear almost nothing, and all manner of t-shirts and other apparel are worn with varying degrees of risqueness (is that a word?) Its obvious that a tshirt pushing peace is well within the boundaries of acceptable attire.

sorry, I should've been more clear.

anyway, I'm done arguing because nothing will be solved anyway.

[ChrisCantSkate]

no, the securaty gaurds were upholding the right of the mall owner by allowing him to manage his private property. theres a difference. a HUGE one. if this was in a public park or on the street then i would be all over this one. the case isnt about war at all, it is about a store owner and him saying he didnt want those people in his store. he IS allowed to kick them out if he cooses. thats the fun part about owning something

[msvtec14]

I agree with the fact that it their arrest was legal. But at the same time really stupid on the behalf of the owners. I just want to know what kind of people owned or were working in that mall. I still don't understand why their t-shirts were so bad to these people. It's just a shirt. It's not disruptive. It does not make noise. And what it said isn't offensive.

[oc civic]

I understand why they were asked to leave.

there was a problem a week or two before with people with SIMILAR shirts.. so unfortunately that tension probably had a lot to do with the request to leave ... take for example the confederate flag (on a side note im completely opposed to racism i think it is the most gay absurd thought process a person could have.. with that said) take that flag.. stick it on a T-shirt.. in and of itself its NOT a problem... BUT factor in an area known for white supremacist type hate crimes.... now you have a situation.. this flag could EASILY be associated with that crowd.. now factor in a public place like the mall that these hate crimes are occurring in.. now you have the recipe for exactly what happened to that man and his dad.. in and of itself the shirt means NOTHING.. but due to the tension of pro war and anti war people the shirt creates conflict, and discord ... something not good in a business atmosphere ... and I think that is really all that happened.


BTW.. im not angry.. and i take all this debating in stride... its soley discusion to me.. :yes: just want you all to no im NOT trying to belittle anyone.. i just enjoy debating issues..;)

[ford50forlife]

Damn these are all some extremely good arguements here, i dont know where to begin or butt in, so i wont ;)

but i agree with oc civic's last post, i think from a business aspect the owner might of felt this could be a problem, i doubt he did it out of being an asshole