wow.. talk about a world coming together

[ChrisCantSkate]

http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/

and before this one gets twisted into another bush post, it is showing unity between the citizens of all nations to rally for no way.

[mt.biker]

Dude I know you really dont think there should be a war but one is needed in this situation. I dont like getting involved with political discussion much anymore but I can't hold my tongue anymore.

The problem in Iraq isn't going to go away with anything the UN is doing, they are taking the piss on controling a dangerous nation. As an American you are at the greatest risk to an attack (compaired to where I sit, in canada) and well I think you would want to make sure that your country isn't attacked again like 9/11.
On the flip side Iraq will never be more motivated to attack you then after the first wave of American bombs. That said fear is not a good reason to stop you from doing the right thing. The Iraqie (sp?) people do not live in a free nation and the free world should do everything in its power to provide a "free nation" for them.

For other countries not to stand beside the US isn't a surprise, half the countries in Europe are a bunch of pusies and well need to pull their heads out of their asses. Screw what the rest of the world has to say on this issue and go in there and bomb the country back to the stone age. Get a new leader in that country who believes in a free Iraq adn one that supports the idea of working towards freedom for everyone in the middle east.

In my mind the rest of the world can shut their mouths on the topic, when was the last time they stepped in and did something useful? Its aways been britian and the US doing the dirty work and if you aint helping you a part of the problem.

[Racing Rice]

I saw a lot of that on the news the other day.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
The problem in Iraq isn't going to go away with anything the UN is doing, they are taking the piss on controling a dangerous nation. As an American you are at the greatest risk to an attack (compaired to where I sit, in canada) and well I think you would want to make sure that your country isn't attacked again like 9/11.
the thing is, that was a terrorist attack, not from a country. sadaam dosnt have the ability to do a military attack on us. even near the magnituted of 9-11. iraq and al queda(sp?) are not related in any way, alot of people dont realize this

i dunno, ive read too much maybe, but i dont think a war is justified right now

[accord98lx]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Screw what the rest of the world has to say on this issue and go in there and bomb the country back to the stone age.

Isnt Iraq already in the Stone Age?? ;)

Iraq violated their UN resolution...UN wont enforce it..US will...whats the deal eh?

[oc civic]

we agree to allow the UN to police the world...that is what we are SUPOSED to agree on, but now that bush the cry baby is not getting his way he agrees to defy the UN.. im not saying there should be war or not be war, BUT what i do know is this.. he ALREADY withdrew from the anti ballistic missle treaty and now he is talkign about U/N DIFIANCE, these are steps BACKWARDS not fowards.. people work so hard to establish truces and treatys now this asshole is screwing it all up.. and the fact IS al quida is NOT directly affiliated with iraq. did they have anything to do with training??? MAYBE.. but the same can be said about Mc Viegh we (the US goverment/military) TRAINED him to be a soldier.. and on april 19, 1995 168 people, including 8 Federal Marshals, were killed in the bombing of the federal building in Oaklahoma City.. im NOT comparing it in damage to 9-11.... im simply saying that we MIGHT be barking up the wrong tree by pointing so many fingers at iraq...

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by oc civic
we agree to allow the UN to police the world...that is what we are SUPOSED to agree on, but now that bush the cry baby is not getting his way he agrees to defy the UN.. im not saying there should be war or not be war, BUT what i do know is this.. he ALREADY withdrew from the anti ballistic missle treaty and now he is talkign about U/N DIFIANCE, these are steps BACKWARDS not fowards.. people work so hard to establish truces and treatys now this asshole is screwing it all up.. and the fact IS al quida is NOT directly affiliated with iraq. did they have anything to do with training??? MAYBE.. but the same can be said about Mc Viegh we (the US goverment/military) TRAINED him to be a soldier.. and on april 19, 1995 168 people, including 8 Federal Marshals, were killed in the bombing of the federal building in Oaklahoma City.. im NOT comparing it in damage to 9-11.... im simply saying that we MIGHT be barking up the wrong tree by pointing so many fingers at iraq...
so so true.

[mt.biker]

The UN is not policing the world, they keep changing their position as to avoid confrontation. Pushing deadlines back to give Iraq more time isn't the answer, if you give an inch they take a mile. Everyone knows that saying and well they keep on pushing the limits. If the UN isn't willing to tell countries involved with the UN to apply military force on Iraq then one or two countries have to take it upon themselves to do the right thing.

The UN has almost become a joke, no one wants to goto war so they do everything in their power to stop that, even at the cost of the world's view of the UN. How many bad rulers do you think will be afriad of the free world if the UN can't even control Iraq. Heck the UN is a joke, things take forever to get down and for the most part its just the US and Britian doing the work, and the US is one of the largest funders to the UN and yet when the US says 'we need to flex our strength so saddam knows we mean business" they all gawk and say "No, no, more time and he will do the right thing".

I personally dont believe that a man who keeps his people in the dark, murders and rapes his citizens will ever do the right thing. He will do only enough to stop his country from being bombed.

Now whos side are you really on if you dont support this war, maybe you've all forgotten how good you have it living in the wealthiest country in the world. Its easy to say your leader is a morron and shouldn't be starting a war in the middle east. Well I call you to take a look around, possibly pull your heads of your a$$ as well because the rest of the world doesn't live like you do and there are 100's of people in Iraq that every day are beat and possibly killed because they believe in a free Iraq. What your country is going over there to do is to support freedom and support the dream for a better future. Its too easy to say Bush is doing this for oil and greeed, thats not a good enough reason for him not to goto war. Thats only what the meida has feed you and honestly I'm sick of Americans not supporting their prez. You finally have a leader with the balls to do the right thing and your afriad of what its going to cost YOU. "Its not what your country can do for you but rather what you can do for your country" get off your a$$ and make a difference in this world. At least your prez has an idea of where he wants your country to go, you might be down on the markets lately but thats not his fault, the price of oil might be up but thats because you are the most wasteful society on the face of the earth.

Suck up whateve problems you think you have and shut your mouth! No where else in this world do people live as freely as they do over here. The people in the armed forces are there to better this world and where ever there needs to be corrections made, they step forward and put their lives on the line to "free this world" God bless all those men and women who daily put their lives on teh line for what they believe in, its better then I can say for all the protestors that forget how they became free, have you not forgotten your civil war?

I think the major problem with Americans these days is you have it too good. Forgetting that the rest of the world doesn't live like you do, maybe if you travelled over seas you would realize the life you live is everyones dream, stop your bitching and either shut up or ship out. If you dont like what your gov't is doing, I'll send you $0.25 to call someone who gives a shit. I can't believe as a Canadian I am more supportive of what Bush is doing then the lot of americans I've talked to. Yes many Americans will die in this war, but that is a small price to pay for freedom, have you all forgotten how good freedom tastes? I hope you haven't and everyone in this world should be allowed to wake up in the morning and be living in a free society, dont ever try and stop that. If you do you are no better then Saddam himself.


GOD BLESS AMERICA!

[94_AcCoRd_EX]

Rob :bow:

Well said.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
The UN is not policing the world, they keep changing their position as to avoid confrontation. Pushing deadlines back to give Iraq more time isn't the answer, if you give an inch they take a mile. Everyone knows that saying and well they keep on pushing the limits. If the UN isn't willing to tell countries involved with the UN to apply military force on Iraq then one or two countries have to take it upon themselves to do the right thing.

The UN has almost become a joke, no one wants to goto war so they do everything in their power to stop that, even at the cost of the world's view of the UN. How many bad rulers do you think will be afriad of the free world if the UN can't even control Iraq. Heck the UN is a joke, things take forever to get down and for the most part its just the US and Britian doing the work, and the US is one of the largest funders to the UN and yet when the US says 'we need to flex our strength so saddam knows we mean business" they all gawk and say "No, no, more time and he will do the right thing".

I personally dont believe that a man who keeps his people in the dark, murders and rapes his citizens will ever do the right thing. He will do only enough to stop his country from being bombed.

Now whos side are you really on if you dont support this war, maybe you've all forgotten how good you have it living in the wealthiest country in the world. Its easy to say your leader is a morron and shouldn't be starting a war in the middle east. Well I call you to take a look around, possibly pull your heads of your a$$ as well because the rest of the world doesn't live like you do and there are 100's of people in Iraq that every day are beat and possibly killed because they believe in a free Iraq. What your country is going over there to do is to support freedom and support the dream for a better future. Its too easy to say Bush is doing this for oil and greeed, thats not a good enough reason for him not to goto war. Thats only what the meida has feed you and honestly I'm sick of Americans not supporting their prez. You finally have a leader with the balls to do the right thing and your afriad of what its going to cost YOU. "Its not what your country can do for you but rather what you can do for your country" get off your a$$ and make a difference in this world. At least your prez has an idea of where he wants your country to go, you might be down on the markets lately but thats not his fault, the price of oil might be up but thats because you are the most wasteful society on the face of the earth.

Suck up whateve problems you think you have and shut your mouth! No where else in this world do people live as freely as they do over here. The people in the armed forces are there to better this world and where ever there needs to be corrections made, they step forward and put their lives on the line to "free this world" God bless all those men and women who daily put their lives on teh line for what they believe in, its better then I can say for all the protestors that forget how they became free, have you not forgotten your civil war?

I think the major problem with Americans these days is you have it too good. Forgetting that the rest of the world doesn't live like you do, maybe if you travelled over seas you would realize the life you live is everyones dream, stop your bitching and either shut up or ship out. If you dont like what your gov't is doing, I'll send you $0.25 to call someone who gives a shit. I can't believe as a Canadian I am more supportive of what Bush is doing then the lot of americans I've talked to. Yes many Americans will die in this war, but that is a small price to pay for freedom, have you all forgotten how good freedom tastes? I hope you haven't and everyone in this world should be allowed to wake up in the morning and be living in a free society, dont ever try and stop that. If you do you are no better then Saddam himself.


GOD BLESS AMERICA!


WOW where to start ... lets start by saying. How we became free has NOTHING to do with some standing obligation to the world. WE became free because we lived under an oppressed government... WE became free because we got off of our asses and did something about it ... it is NOT our moral obligation to free the world. i STRONGLY support war when it is just. But I also believe in a right way to do things ... balls ... he has no balls. is HE going to lead the troops to battle? NO he will be in a lead lined bunker 7 fathoms beneath the surface, protecting his ass.. and we are not protecting some freedom, from some government who is threatening to concur us ... he is sticking his face in something that has NOTHING to do with him.. they have yet to PROVE he has anything he isn't supposed to have that would threaten OUR safety.. i for one question his motives...

HOW ABOUT YOU TELL ME IN A CLEAR CONCISE WAY WHY WE SHOULD WAGE WAR ON IRAQ, and PLEASE SUPPORT IT WITH FACT.. that is IF you can

oh yeah and by the way.. FUCK you for questioning MY loyalty..

[oc civic]

Originally posted by 94_AcCoRd_EX
Rob :bow:

Well said.

what was well said? what exactly did i miss

we should take this to an aim chat room..

[mt.biker]

oc civic you must have missed the speach to the UN by Mr.Powel who doesn't typically believe in going to war, but yet he says that they need to goto war now. If you did miss that I'm not going to repeat everything he said but I will touch on the theme of his message.

Saddam does have weapons that he isn't supposed to have, he is just hiding them better then anyone could have possibly hoped. He is going to great lengths and costs to keep these weapson hidden from the UN.

One must wonder why he is hiding these weapons and why there are companies in Iraq producing missiles that go beyond the range impossed by the UN. The production of these missiles signles to me that the UN has not done its job in enforcing these regulations that were set a few years ago. This is a good reason the US needs to step in and remove Saddam from power.

You are responsible for Iraq, and your going to shit your pants when I tell you why so sit your a$$ down. Your gov't put him into power in the hopes he would lead Iraq fairly, well he didn't and the money has gone to his head. So your gov't/country is personally responsible for all the pain and suffering of the people under his rain.

If that isn't enough for you, your country is the military police of teh world and was founded on the notion of freedom. When you stop defending freedom you have forgotten where you have come from and that is truly a crime.

As to Bush not leading your forces into battle, that is a pointless argument adn that says nothing about his choice. So shut up on that one!

As to your reply please try to be more thoughtful and intelegent in your replies, I have no wish to "decode" what you are trying to say so lets keep things well written please, I know you have it in you and your sluppy style tells me you are angered by my notion of right and wrong. Do grow up!

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic you must have missed the speach to the UN by Mr.Powel who doesn't typically believe in going to war, but yet he says that they need to goto war now. If you did miss that I'm not going to repeat everything he said but I will touch on the theme of his message

Saddam does have weapons that he isn't supposed to have, he is just hiding them better then anyone could have possibly hoped. He is going to great lengths and costs to keep these weapson hidden from the UN..<-- so basicly he is saying we know he has bad things because we just know but we can't prove it because well hes too sneaky but we want you to allow us to just wadge a war based on our "hunch" sorry thats not good enough for me....

One must wonder why he is hiding these weapons and why there are companies in Iraq producing missiles that go beyond the range impossed by the UN. The production of these missiles signles to me that the UN has not done its job in enforcing these regulations that were set a few years ago. This is a good reason the US needs to step in and remove Saddam from power.<-- how much further do these missles travel? how precise is missle travel? how close are these missles to threatening american safety?? come on man those missles are a joke...

You are responsible for Iraq, and your going to shit your pants when I tell you why so sit your a$$ down. Your gov't put him into power in the hopes he would lead Iraq fairly, well he didn't and the money has gone to his head. So your gov't/country is personally responsible for all the pain and suffering of the people under his rain.

If that isn't enough for you, your country is the military police of teh world and was founded on the notion of freedom. When you stop defending freedom you have forgotten where you have come from and that is truly a crime.<-- maybe that is a mistake we made a LONG time ago.. maybe canada should police the world for a while....

As to Bush not leading your forces into battle, that is a pointless argument adn that says nothing about his choice. So shut up on that one!<-- right..

As to your reply please try to be more thoughtful and intelegent in your replies, I have no wish to "decode" what you are trying to say so lets keep things well written please, I know you have it in you and your sluppy style tells me you are angered by my notion of right and wrong. Do grow up!

[AzCivic]

What the hell was the point of that?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by AzCivic
What the hell was the point of that?

if you re read what he wrote.. i responded to two of his reasons for wadging war..

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by oc civic
if you re read what he wrote.. i responded to two of his reasons for wadging war..

Where did you touch on the Powel issue?

[AzCivic]

uh no you just quoted what he wrote.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Where did you touch on the Powel issue?

Saddam does have weapons that he isn't supposed to have, he is just hiding them better then anyone could have possibly hoped. He is going to great lengths and costs to keep these weapson hidden from the UN..<-- so basicly he is saying we know he has bad things because we just know but we can't prove it because well hes too sneaky but we want you to allow us to just wadge a war based on our "hunch" sorry thats not good enough for me....

One must wonder why he is hiding these weapons and why there are companies in Iraq producing missiles that go beyond the range impossed by the UN. The production of these missiles signles to me that the UN has not done its job in enforcing these regulations that were set a few years ago. This is a good reason the US needs to step in and remove Saddam from power.<-- how much further do these missles travel? how precise is missle travel? how close are these missles to threatening american safety?? come on man those missles are a joke...


i put little arrows pointing to what he said then wrote a responce...

[AzCivic]

Good job though Mt. Biker. You are way better with words than i could hope to be.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by oc civic
Saddam does have weapons that he isn't supposed to have, he is just hiding them better then anyone could have possibly hoped. He is going to great lengths and costs to keep these weapson hidden from the UN..<-- so basicly he is saying we know he has bad things because we just know but we can't prove it because well hes too sneaky but we want you to allow us to just wadge a war based on our "hunch" sorry thats not good enough for me....

One must wonder why he is hiding these weapons and why there are companies in Iraq producing missiles that go beyond the range impossed by the UN. The production of these missiles signles to me that the UN has not done its job in enforcing these regulations that were set a few years ago. This is a good reason the US needs to step in and remove Saddam from power.<-- how much further do these missles travel? how precise is missle travel? how close are these missles to threatening american safety?? come on man those missles are a joke...


i put little arrows pointing to what he said then wrote a responce...

oh.

So those sattellite photos that he showed of things being moved before inspectors got there, you dont think thats proof he's doing something he shouldnt??

Does it matter how far they travel and how precise they are? Fact is he's not supposed to have them.

[AzCivic]

Mt Biker i just have one disagreement, about how Saddam got into power. I didnt think the US government got him into power i thought he was just part of some military takeover awhile back and he eventually made himself leader.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by AzCivic
oh.

So those sattellite photos that he showed of things being moved before inspectors got there, you dont think thats proof he's doing something he shouldnt??

Does it matter how far they travel and how precise they are? Fact is he's not supposed to have them.

ever look at a satelite photo of hmm lets say a hospital??? As the UN put it who knows what normal is... those trucks do not PROVE he is being sneaky.. DO THEY?? i didn't notice any banners on the truck that said "nuclear bomb transport" the point is IF he IS violating things then we WILL find otu about it.. and have REAL proof.. NOT a hunch.. what if the police saw a KNOWN drug dealer driving around talking to LOTS of people OBVIOUSLY selling drugs.. we ALL know it.. BUT when stopped there is NO REAL evidence you think it is fair to convict him?? NO OF COURSE NOT.. and thats the problem i have with this.. when they find GOOD hard REAL info i will be the FIRST to say lets go..

[OPAKRACING]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
the thing is, that was a terrorist attack, not from a country. sadaam dosnt have the ability to do a military attack on us. even near the magnituted of 9-11. iraq and al queda(sp?) are not related in any way, alot of people dont realize this

i dunno, ive read too much maybe, but i dont think a war is justified right now


Have you seen the new Osama bin laden video that was jsut realesed? in it he says things to the effect of, he will not sit silent while his muslim brothers be atttacked by us....in the tape he sounds a bunch like he's gunna try to join them or somthin. I think they've talked (osama and sadaam)

[OPAKRACING]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Dude I know you really dont think there should be a war but one is needed in this situation. I dont like getting involved with political discussion much anymore but I can't hold my tongue anymore.

The problem in Iraq isn't going to go away with anything the UN is doing, they are taking the piss on controling a dangerous nation. As an American you are at the greatest risk to an attack (compaired to where I sit, in canada) and well I think you would want to make sure that your country isn't attacked again like 9/11.
On the flip side Iraq will never be more motivated to attack you then after the first wave of American bombs. That said fear is not a good reason to stop you from doing the right thing. The Iraqie (sp?) people do not live in a free nation and the free world should do everything in its power to provide a "free nation" for them.

For other countries not to stand beside the US isn't a surprise, half the countries in Europe are a bunch of pusies and well need to pull their heads out of their asses. Screw what the rest of the world has to say on this issue and go in there and bomb the country back to the stone age. Get a new leader in that country who believes in a free Iraq adn one that supports the idea of working towards freedom for everyone in the middle east.

In my mind the rest of the world can shut their mouths on the topic, when was the last time they stepped in and did something useful? Its aways been britian and the US doing the dirty work and if you aint helping you a part of the problem.

I agree.

[OPAKRACING]

Why the hell would the israelis be against the war!?

Sadaam is their biggest threat. Sadaam hates them with a passion....its seems like they'd want us to help them take him out.

[AzCivic]

HUH?

[OPAKRACING]

Originally posted by AzCivic
HUH?


What part?

[AzCivic]

You said : "Why the hell would the israelis be against the war!?

Sadaam is their biggest threat. Sadaam hates them with a passion....its seems like they'd want us to help them take him out."

Maybe i just missed what your referring to, or who you were talking too. I didnt see anything talking about Irailis. I probably just missed it.

[OPAKRACING]

I was refering to a picture in the gallery posted. it was one of the israeli's marching.

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by OPAKRACING
I was refering to a picture in the gallery posted. it was one of the israeli's marching.

Oh.

[Wren57]

I actually agree w/ Mt. Biker on this one:eek:
I dont have the patience to be as long-winded as Biker, but shall try to be concise:

1) UN rules said Sadaam can not have these missles
2) Sadaam has missles that exceed the UN requirement, and some have been found with liquid, yes LIQUID inside them and the cheif UN weapons inspector demanded he remove them

if this isnt enough, how about some more hard info:

1) Sadaam has history of creating volatility in the region
2) Sadaam attempted genocide on the turks in the north of his own country
3) the US didnt put him in power, but silently funded him in the war against Iran
4) He has a long-standing grudge against the US, but is laying-low trying to buy time to create an arsenal capable of mass destruction- no he doesnt have this now, but picture him as say a velociraptor... you wanna kill it while its still an egg or wait for it to hatch and *hope* that it will be nice, even though all other velociraptors aren't...

ok thats too much typing for me for one post... Ill respond to this later...

[mt.biker]

oc civic so far it sounds like you just dont want to do anything about the problem in Iraq and hope it all smooths over. It seems I have how saddam got into power a bit off, but the US still helped him get there.

IF you just dont want to do anything but sit around and hope to God that this man dies before he causes trouble...I'm just gonna bite my tongue on the kind of person I would think of you if that was you.

Now I have a fever and I'm off to bed!

[Wren57]

Oh... as for Israel...
The US has agreed to help setup a respected Palestinian state after the war
Iraq had artillery that could shell Jerusalem, but it was removed several years ago... no telling how many more artillery he has hidden
Children in Israel live in constant fear of an Iraq bombardment, and practice drills in school which see them wearing gas masks and retreating to bunkers

and did nobody notice that he was elected UNANIMOUSLY by election recently? Please, dont try to convince me that was legit:no:

WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Sadaam is jerking all of you around by your chain, trying to buy time to produce more weapons and prepare for a war. EVERY time we are about to *do something about it some magical document appears that says they have disarmed some weapon, and hence the world wants to give more time to try to uncover these mysterious documents...
he has lied, he is lying, and he will lie again
he has killed, he is killing, and he will kill again

seriously- you say we should give him more time? what has he done to prove to us that he will cooperate in good faith? nothing except play the middle and pretend to be the good guy and creating a smokescreen for himself so the lesser-intelligent of humans beleive him and oppose those who see through the smoke, thus dividing people in every country...

oh- blood for oil? please, do you have any concept of how LITTLE oil Iraq actually sends to the US? did you know that a lot of it comes from places such as Argentina? so that statement is completely unfounded...

Sadaam is a terrorist to his own people and, if given more time to increase his bio/chem/nuclear weapons he will be a terrorist to the world and will threaten free countries everywhere. Is this the threat you want your children to live under?:no:

[AzCivic]

For all you people who think Saddam isnt really all that bad:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect4.html

[ChrisCantSkate]

bush did coke.. thus by definition he is an evil person cause drugs are bad.

i am not for war without proof. its the same thing with police warrents, they cannot arrest you and hold you because they think you did something, they need proof. we need PROOF to go to war. that is what i want. i think bush is acting almost too much like hitler, our news is biased to make him look good, and sadaam look bad. i know sadaam is a bad person, im not trying to stand up for him, but im not supporting bush. he is acting like a dictator, he is trying to rule the world

[AzCivic]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
bush did coke.. thus by definition he is an evil person cause drugs are bad.

i am not for war without proof. its the same thing with police warrents, they cannot arrest you and hold you because they think you did something, they need proof. we need PROOF to go to war. that is what i want. i think bush is acting almost too much like hitler, our news is biased to make him look good, and sadaam look bad. i know sadaam is a bad person, im not trying to stand up for him, but im not supporting bush. he is acting like a dictator, he is trying to rule the world

about your first comment: what the hell are you talking about?

shit does saddam need to come to YOUR house and torture YOU and YOUR family and drop a bomb in YOUR back yard before you get the point.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by AzCivic
about your first comment: what the hell are you talking about?


bush usta do coke

[AzCivic]

When? Like 20 years ago?

Not that it has a damn thing to do with what were talking about or anything.

[AzCivic]

Oh wait it was like 30 years ago.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by AzCivic
When? Like 20 years ago?

Not that it has a damn thing to do with what were talking about or anything.
im just saying you cant exploite peoples personal lives and say it effects there professional one

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander


and did nobody notice that he was elected UNANIMOUSLY by election recently? Please, dont try to convince me that was legit:no:


did you notice that in the last US presidential election we did NOT elect Bush, but yet he is still in office... ITS THE SAME... we have this BS voting but popular vote doesn't mean shit... so whats your point??? do you really NOT think US elections are fixed? i hope you have more sense than that

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander


Sadaam is a terrorist to his own people and, if given more time to increase his bio/chem/nuclear weapons he will be a terrorist to the world

but our ex coke head president is permitted to have nuclear bombs.. yeah that seams logical..

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
I actually agree w/ Mt. Biker on this one:eek:
I dont have the patience to be as long-winded as Biker, but shall try to be concise:

1) UN rules said Sadaam can not have these missles
2) Sadaam has missles that exceed the UN requirement, and some have been found with liquid, yes LIQUID inside them and the cheif UN weapons inspector demanded he remove them

if this isnt enough, how about some more hard info:

1) Sadaam has history of creating volatility in the region
2) Sadaam attempted genocide on the turks in the north of his own country
3) the US didnt put him in power, but silently funded him in the war against Iran
4) He has a long-standing grudge against the US, but is laying-low trying to buy time to create an arsenal capable of mass destruction- no he doesnt have this now, but picture him as say a velociraptor... you wanna kill it while its still an egg or wait for it to hatch and *hope* that it will be nice, even though all other velociraptors aren't...

ok thats too much typing for me for one post... Ill respond to this later...

the missles were tested without the aditional weight of a war head (for obious reasons) BUT there is no way to get an accurate reading due to the change in weight..... i think you are smart enough to understand that...

AND ANYWAY they have agreed to destroy the missles to please are dictator of a leader...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
and some have been found with liquid, yes LIQUID inside them

if you re read this out loud you MIGHT realize how silly it sounds..

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic so far it sounds like you just dont want to do anything about the problem in Iraq and hope it all smooths over.

no you are wrong.. i want to go to war for JUST causes... IF the UN decides war is necisary due to FACTUAL evidence then im all for it.. im NOT for random crusades against countries that pose NO REAL military threat...

[oc civic]

the fact is we should NOT babysit any nation... we went in in 91 did whatever and now its back... its simply NOT our job to meddle in the affairs of iraq.. you don't see us pulling this shit in china... thats because we know better.. china is equally opressed if not more.. but if we pulled this shit there they would bring it.. i just think its absurd that ANY of you are saying that a missle whos range is slightly more than 93 miles justifies OUR involvement with iraq... do any of you realize the distance from here to iraq.. they pose NO JUSTIFYABLE threat...

[AzCivic]

If you have a problem with our election system why dont you move to ****ing Iraq and see how theirs is. Maybe you'll meet your Idol Saddam Hussein while your there, and if your real lucky he'll deny your family food unless you join his army.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by AzCivic
If you have a problem with our election system why dont you move to ****ing Iraq and see how theirs is. Maybe you'll meet your Idol Saddam Hussein while your there, and if your real lucky he'll deny your family food unless you join his army.

your an idiot...

do you really NOT think that our election system is flawed... do you understand electoral voting and how it started.. WHY is it still in place??? hmm i can't figure it out.. saddam is NOT my idol.... its funny because you are all freedom this freedom that, but the SECOND someone says something you don't agree with... utilizing there freedom to express themselves.. there freedom to disagree with the government you want to kill them or exile them.. weren't you just preaching about freedom and fighting for it...

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by oc civic
your an idiot...

do you really NOT think that our election system is flawed... do you understand electoral voting and how it started.. WHY is it still in place??? hmm i can't figure it out.. saddam is NOT my idol.... its funny because you are all freedom this freedom that, but the SECOND someone says something you don't agree with... utilizing there freedom to express themselves.. there freedom to disagree with the government you want to kill them or exile them.. weren't you just preaching about freedom and fighting for it...
:bow:

we have freedom of speech(bairly still.. dont get me started on this) because our citizens can voice their opinions. if you dont like that why dont you go back to 30's and 40's germany where they treated the rebels like you are treating us who see things differently than you... nazi

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by oc civic
no you are wrong.. i want to go to war for JUST causes... IF the UN decides war is necisary due to FACTUAL evidence then im all for it.. im NOT for random crusades against countries that pose NO REAL military threat...

oc civic open your eyes, he does pose a military threat to your country. This is like talking to a wall, all valid facts you say arent valid, get off your high horse and look around.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic open your eyes, he does pose a military threat to your country. This is like talking to a wall, all valid facts you say arent valid, get off your high horse and look around.
how does he have the ability to attack? honestly? his missles that he is dismantaling broke the 93 mile limit by 5 miles with no warheads in them. he would have to be within 93 miles of the coast... that means ships.. or he could fly them in, but we have patrol around the whole mid east, he cant exactly slip a jet out.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
oc civic open your eyes, he does pose a military threat to your country. This is like talking to a wall, all valid facts you say arent valid, get off your high horse and look around.

he is now dismanteling the missles deemed against UN policy.. now in your own words justify war..

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by oc civic
he is now dismanteling the missles deemed against UN policy.. now in your own words justify war..

You are a foolish foolish man! You think because hes dismanteling these weapons you've found that he will willing do it to all the others that you haven't found yet.

I really question why you dont want to goto war oc civic? It seems to me like the people here that dont want to goto war are just ignoring facts. You will also be the first people to cry "bloody murder" when a major city is hit by an unknow biological weapon, or missile. This war you would be going into would be one of proactive protection. With a country like Iraq you cannot wait around any longer. You have given him enough time and by waiting any longer you are only showing him that hes figured out the system and by giving you a little at a time he is able to do more behind your back.

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
You are a foolish foolish man! You think because hes dismanteling these weapons you've found that he will willing do it to all the others that you haven't found yet.

I really question why you dont want to goto war oc civic? It seems to me like the people here that dont want to goto war are just ignoring facts. You will also be the first people to cry "bloody murder" when a major city is hit by an unknow biological weapon, or missile. This war you would be going into would be one of proactive protection. With a country like Iraq you cannot wait around any longer. You have given him enough time and by waiting any longer you are only showing him that hes figured out the system and by giving you a little at a time he is able to do more behind your back.
the problem is there is no proof, what happens when we level a town, and go and search and find nothing. you cannot go to war on a hunch. you are a common terrorist to attack without just cause

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by ChrisCantSkate
the problem is there is no proof, what happens when we level a town, and go and search and find nothing. you cannot go to war on a hunch. you are a common terrorist to attack without just cause

Chris the just cause is the fact he has not been meeting the deadlines and the UN has had to push them back time and tiem again. He has not proved himself to be good to his word. There in lies just cause.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
You are a foolish foolish man! You think because hes dismanteling these weapons you've found that he will willing do it to all the others that you haven't found yet.

I really question why you dont want to goto war oc civic? It seems to me like the people here that dont want to goto war are just ignoring facts. You will also be the first people to cry "bloody murder" when a major city is hit by an unknow biological weapon, or missile. This war you would be going into would be one of proactive protection. With a country like Iraq you cannot wait around any longer. You have given him enough time and by waiting any longer you are only showing him that hes figured out the system and by giving you a little at a time he is able to do more behind your back.

because i believe in freedom.. thats exactly why.. i believe in a cultures ability to exist without fear of US imposed tyranny. i believe in burdone of proof. i believ that you THINK they are doing something bad.. i BELIEVE you might be right. but i ALSO believe in due process. i believe it is the finger pointer burden, PROVE a crime is commited... if we lose that we lose ALL freedom.. a crime is a breach in U/N protocal NOT a culture we disagree with...

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Chris the just cause is the fact he has not been meeting the deadlines and the UN has had to push them back time and tiem again. He has not proved himself to be good to his word. There in lies just cause.
if we defy the UN, then we are just as bad as them

[mt.biker]

NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE!!!

oc civic- i see where you are coming from now. Yes they are a different culture and yes they shouldn't be forced to live a life sytle similar to north america. BUt shouldnt they be given the right to live freely? From all that I have come to understand the people in Iraq live in fear and are not truly "free." What is wrong with giving them their freedom?

If they aren't able to fight for their own freedom because they are so controled shouldn't someone step in and give them the ability to live in a free nation? This would involve putting an elected leader into power.


Chris - now that is an interesting point. If we can agree that Saddam has defied the UN, then we must agree on the proper action that would need to be taken. I dont believe more time is the answer because we've already tried that again and again. So what do you think is the right way to deal with a militant country who is not following the UN guidelines?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
Chris the just cause is the fact he has not been meeting the deadlines and the UN has had to push them back time and tiem again. He has not proved himself to be good to his word. There in lies just cause.

not true.. the U/N as we agree (by US policy) is a WORLD court... and what that court decides IS law.. if they agree that the missle issue is a gray area and agree to push it back, then we as being party to that law making party must let that take place..

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by oc civic
not true.. the U/N as we agree (by US policy) is a WORLD court... and what that court decides IS law.. if they agree that the missle issue is a gray area and agree to push it back, then we as being party to that law making party must let that take place..

the only downside to that of course, is the fact that no other country in the UN is more at risk from an attack then the US. So the question is does the UN really have everyones best interests in mind? I'm beginning to doubt that they do...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE!!!

oc civic- i see where you are coming from now. Yes they are a different culture and yes they shouldn't be forced to live a life sytle similar to north america. BUt shouldnt they be given the right to live freely? From all that I have come to understand the people in Iraq live in fear and are not truly "free." What is wrong with giving them their freedom?

If they aren't able to fight for their own freedom because they are so controled shouldn't someone step in and give them the ability to live in a free nation? This would involve putting an elected leader into power.



yes we ARE getting somewhere;)

NO we should NOT fight for them.. BECAUSE moraly i think that opressign women (for example) is bad BUT they do not necisarily... how many years did the US opress blacks and women.. did any nation attack us to free them.. HELL NO.. and THATS my point.. if another nation IS wrong acording to world law (what we PRE AGREE ON) then hell yeah ill pick up a gun and stand next to you.. BUT i STRONGLY believe in the fundementals of freedom.. you can NOT run around the world and say ok china.. we don't like comunism.. if you dont change we are gonna wage war.. we CAN do other things to show dissatisfaction we can use things liek trade embargos against iraq.. we can CHOSE not to help them, NOT to be associated with them, AND to defend against them, but we can NOT choose how to run there country.. IF we start to do that we BECOME hitler... nazi like in nature..

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
the only downside to that of course, is the fact that no other country in the UN is more at risk from an attack then the US. So the question is does the UN really have everyones best interests in mind? I'm beginning to doubt that they do...

there are many countries that SHOULD fear him in the UN that are MUCH closer to his reach... isreal, iran, southern european countries.... there are MANY that shoudl have REAL fear... countries that have MUCH less than the atlantic ocean between them and the target..

[mt.biker]

Originally posted by oc civic
yes we ARE getting somewhere;)

NO we should NOT fight for them.. BECAUSE moraly i think that opressign women (for example) is bad BUT they do not necisarily... how many years did the US opress blacks and women.. did any nation attack us to free them.. HELL NO.. and THATS my point.. if another nation IS wrong acording to world law (what we PRE AGREE ON) then hell yeah ill pick up a gun and stand next to you.. BUT i STRONGLY believe in the fundementals of freedom.. you can NOT run around the world and say ok china.. we don't like comunism.. if you dont change we are gonna wage war.. we CAN do other things to show dissatisfaction we can use things liek trade embargos against iraq.. we can CHOSE not to help them, NOT to be associated with them, AND to defend against them, but we can NOT choose how to run there country.. IF we start to do that we BECOME hitler... nazi like in nature..

See here in lies a problem, if i'm not mistake france, germany and russa do alot of business with Iraq, does this mean that the people that sit on the UN for those countries would rather do business with iraq then goto war? I'm going to have to say yes considering that none of those 3 countries are willing to goto war.

I feel that the UN is to soft spoken on issues and isnt' fast in reacting to world issues; like Iraq. This is were I feel the US, britian and any other free nation just needs to step in. Maybe starting a war with everyone isnt the answer and I know its not and dont support war in that manner. I do feel however that a nation like Iraq with all thats going on over there does need firmer treatment by the UN. This hasn't happened yet and thats why I support war in Iraq. with me so far?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
See here in lies a problem, if i'm not mistake france, germany and russa do alot of business with Iraq, does this mean that the people that sit on the UN for those countries would rather do business with iraq then goto war? I'm going to have to say yes considering that none of those 3 countries are willing to goto war.

I feel that the UN is to soft spoken on issues and isnt' fast in reacting to world issues; like Iraq. This is were I feel the US, britian and any other free nation just needs to step in. Maybe starting a war with everyone isnt the answer and I know its not and dont support war in that manner. I do feel however that a nation like Iraq with all thats going on over there does need firmer treatment by the UN. This hasn't happened yet and thats why I support war in Iraq. with me so far?

but its i think its just as bad as saying they dont want a war cause its not in there best interest and we DO want war because its in our best interest... so 6 of one half a dozen of another... get what im saying? im saying if we as a nation want something that is in our best interest then we need to petition the UN to allow that to happen.. does it happen quick enough??? no of course not.. NOTHING politaical happens fast enough.. but i still dont think that it gives anyone the right to go off like crazy starting problems..

heres where im at..
is war NEEDED in iraq? im not sure.. if NEW UN violations are found and NOT delt with then yes probably, but as long as they (iraq) are compliant (even SLOWLY) compliance is the ULTIMATE goal right? war to me is NOT the ultimate goal.. id RATHER see the US KEEP pushing the security council to disarm them.. even if it is a PAINSTAKING process.. you all seem to think they have some bad ass weapons.. SO WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT TO SEND TROOPS THERE.. so he can use them??? i STILL believe diplomacy CAN work in this matter...



should the US make Saddam leave? ABSOLUTELY NOT it violates EVERYTHING i believe it.. he IS the nations leader however he got there.. if he is bad enough the people will rise against him... and things will change as they did for the founders of america.. its not easy but i DONT think its our job to meddle in other countries politics...

one last thing... i think you all took what i said before about his manor out of context.. i do honestly believe he is a MUCH better polotician than bush... i really believe that.. i DONT think he is the monster we make him out to be (relative to his nations culture) we can NOT compare his acts to our morals and cultures... i AM NOT sayign he is a good man... i NEVER said he was good to his people or i would want to live in iraq (with any seriousness)

[Wren57]

I really don't see how some of you can be so trusting of a leader who has been so unjust to not only his neighbors but his own citizens. Please wake up and realize he is lying. Please tell me why we should believe anything he says. The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component, which isn't silly when dropped on anyone. I could run circles around your arguments, but don't have the time or patience, and class starts in three minutes... Here is an overview of the three major countries and why they are opposed to war. They have ulterior motives, can't you figure this out?

French Prez Circh (or something like that) is clinging to the idea that his country still matters on the world stage. In reality France's economy has gone to the shits with the implementation of socialism and making it harder to fire employees. If you understand economics you would realize companies don't want to hire people they can't fire, so they are stagnating. He thinks the French matter, and is using his veto vote to try to prove a point. I bet you didn't know that many muslims live in western France, and well the prez is a diplomat and counts votes... I also bet you didn't know that France has lucrative oil for food deals with Iraq. I also bet you didn't know he has been seen many times meeting with Hussein, and there are paintings of these meetings... figure it out

ok 1 minute left...

Russia- still fuming over the US sending their economy to hell during cold war by outspending them, waiting for a chance to get rid of us so they can rise to power again...

Germany- has no vested interest in the war, has too many home-problems right now and isn't under attack itself so they don't care about anyone else, they are german, go figure...

Ill clarify and/or explain any of these points in detail if you'd like for me to, but now off to AP Calculus...

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
I really don't see how some of you can be so trusting of a leader who has been so unjust to not only his neighbors but his own citizens. Please wake up and realize he is lying. Please tell me why we should believe anything he says. The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component, which isn't silly when dropped on anyone. I could run circles around your arguments, but don't have the time or patience, and class starts in three minutes... Here is an overview of the three major countries and why they are opposed to war. They have ulterior motives, can't you figure this out?

French Prez Circh (or something like that) is clinging to the idea that his country still matters on the world stage. In reality France's economy has gone to the shits with the implementation of socialism and making it harder to fire employees. If you understand economics you would realize companies don't want to hire people they can't fire, so they are stagnating. He thinks the French matter, and is using his veto vote to try to prove a point. I bet you didn't know that many muslims live in western France, and well the prez is a diplomat and counts votes... I also bet you didn't know that France has lucrative oil for food deals with Iraq. I also bet you didn't know he has been seen many times meeting with Hussein, and there are paintings of these meetings... figure it out

ok 1 minute left...

Russia- still fuming over the US sending their economy to hell during cold war by outspending them, waiting for a chance to get rid of us so they can rise to power again...

Germany- has no vested interest in the war, has too many home-problems right now and isn't under attack itself so they don't care about anyone else, they are german, go figure...

Ill clarify and/or explain any of these points in detail if you'd like for me to, but now off to AP Calculus...

you are once again COMPLETELY avoiding the question.. its irrelevant why they dont watn war.. WHO CARES... my point is radicals like your self who are more interested in war than the an alternate positive result are the problem.. you are the people that would rather see blood shed than a problem resolved..

you think they have bad weapons right?so you would rather send thousands of troops to there deaths to confirm this hunch over diplomatic resolution.. remind me to NEVER vote for anyone like you.. you are like those states who have ACCIDENTLY sent nnocent people to the electric chair.. ONCE AGAIN.. maybe you missed what i said.... re read it.. im NOT saying im against war.. im sayign im against war based on his oppresion of his people, or some UNPROVED hunch about chemical weapons...

[mt.biker]

I've said all that I care to say from this point on it just feels like we are going in circles.

[oc civic]

Originally posted by mt.biker
I've said all that I care to say from this point on it just feels like we are going in circles.

IM NOT SAYING I WAS RIGHT AND YOU WERE WRONG.. but do you at least see what i mean about the war option.. and justifying it, and diplomacy although slow is better than blood shed?

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component

i THINK you are talking about VX and that was loaded into the missles prior to the gulf war.. and is OLD news....

[ChrisCantSkate]

so much has gone on since class... where do i start

Originally posted by highlander
I really don't see how some of you can be so trusting of a leader who has been so unjust to not only his neighbors but his own citizens. Please wake up and realize he is lying. Please tell me why we should believe anything he says. The liquid I was referring to that you call "silly" is a bio-chem component, which isn't silly when dropped on anyone. I could run circles around your arguments, but don't have the time or patience, and class starts in three minutes... Here is an overview of the three major countries and why they are opposed to war. They have ulterior motives, can't you figure this out?

French Prez Circh (or something like that) is clinging to the idea that his country still matters on the world stage. In reality France's economy has gone to the shits with the implementation of socialism and making it harder to fire employees. If you understand economics you would realize companies don't want to hire people they can't fire, so they are stagnating. He thinks the French matter, and is using his veto vote to try to prove a point. I bet you didn't know that many muslims live in western France, and well the prez is a diplomat and counts votes... I also bet you didn't know that France has lucrative oil for food deals with Iraq. I also bet you didn't know he has been seen many times meeting with Hussein, and there are paintings of these meetings... figure it out

ok 1 minute left...

Russia- still fuming over the US sending their economy to hell during cold war by outspending them, waiting for a chance to get rid of us so they can rise to power again...

Germany- has no vested interest in the war, has too many home-problems right now and isn't under attack itself so they don't care about anyone else, they are german, go figure...

Ill clarify and/or explain any of these points in detail if you'd like for me to, but now off to AP Calculus...

you have managed to address everything not asked for, and nothing that holds any water. you tell us about other contries homeland problems, which we have plenty of too, you fail to realize iraq has oil, and even though we do not import from them , other coutries do.

you know what bush wants? he wants to take saddam out of power (not a bad idea), and have good foregin relations with iraq (once again, not a bad idea). however if/when he takes saddam out of power, he wants to set up a democracy there. he will give the people a chance to pick their new leader, as long as he approves. then he will let them run the government, again, as long as he approves. this is worse than saddams elections for president, he is the product of the iraqi's decissions. we would be telling them how to run their country. that dosnt sound like world domination to anyone besides me?

and your russia comment.... c'mon thats so weak. they are mad at us because of the cold war? that has what relevence to iraq? they dont want to go to war because theres no proof of anything. people dont come back from the dead. once you kill them. they, including every other contry in the world, are more conserned about having a just war than having their pride hurt. remeber iraq had NOTHING to do with the terrorism on 9-11, do not think that war on iraq will compensate for the WTC. if you feel that this is a solution, you are the most ignorant racist close minded person in the world

you know what we would do if iraq had the UN do a full cavity search on us? probobly freak out and go to war. americans have their heads so far up their asses about this whole we're the best contry that we forget to realize that they are people too.

[Wren57]

Ok let me clarify, again. I am not for war before exhausting all other means of solving the problem. No it is not VX in the warheads, it is not old news, it was discovered last week and if you really want me to I can get some news reports for you regarding it. You really should do some hard research before you speak. I hope you don't believe the liberal slant the media puts on everything.

As for me talking about the other countries, you have to look at the big picture and determine the strategies the other countries are using. You forget how politics can sometimes interrupt action. I was merely illustrating the ulterior motives of other countries.

I never made any parallels with Iraq and 9/11 and do not believe they are connected. I do however believe Iraq is very capable of training soldiers to commit terrorist attacks against the US. Heck, I'm very capable of commiting terrorist attacks on the US, but of course I wouldn't.

Bush has nothing but the best intentions for the people of Iraq after the war. I believe he will live up to his promise of turning the government over to the people to choose for themselves. He would get too much political and foreign pressure if he didn't.

And I did not fail to realize Iraq has oil. Try actually reading my post and you will figure that one out.

As for oc civic, please stop typing with caps, I can understand your emphasis without being shouted at. Thanks.

[Wren57]

And so you don't think I'm a pro-bush all the way for war and all that other crap, I think he is handling Iraq well, but I do believe he is being way too aggressive with North Korea, who actually is asking for the United State's cooperation. Just today Pyongyang asked for direct negotiations w/ the US, but instead we sent 24 long-range bombers to Guam... not a smart move:no:

[oc civic]

Originally posted by highlander
Ok let me clarify, again. I am not for war before exhausting all other means of solving the problem. No it is not VX in the warheads, it is not old news, it was discovered last week and if you really want me to I can get some news reports for you regarding it. You really should do some hard research before you speak. I hope you don't believe the liberal slant the media puts on everything.

As for me talking about the other countries, you have to look at the big picture and determine the strategies the other countries are using. You forget how politics can sometimes interrupt action. I was merely illustrating the ulterior motives of other countries.

I never made any parallels with Iraq and 9/11 and do not believe they are connected. I do however believe Iraq is very capable of training soldiers to commit terrorist attacks against the US. Heck, I'm very capable of commiting terrorist attacks on the US, but of course I wouldn't.

Bush has nothing but the best intentions for the people of Iraq after the war. I believe he will live up to his promise of turning the government over to the people to choose for themselves. He would get too much political and foreign pressure if he didn't.

And I did not fail to realize Iraq has oil. Try actually reading my post and you will figure that one out.

As for oc civic, please stop typing with caps, I can understand your emphasis without being shouted at. Thanks.

i still think you are missing the point.. im sure bush does think he has the best answer for iraq, but unfortunately its still non of our business (imho).. i think that the ONLY act of war they can commit towards us directly at this time is terrorist style attacks.. and well to be perfectly honest so can every other country in the world... and i just dont think that warants war oil this oil that who cares.. i do agree this is NOT about oil.. i just dont see where we as a nation can justify war with them...

and yes please.. news reports on that im interested..

[ChrisCantSkate]

Originally posted by highlander
And so you don't think I'm a pro-bush all the way for war and all that other crap, I think he is handling Iraq well, but I do believe he is being way too aggressive with North Korea, who actually is asking for the United State's cooperation. Just today Pyongyang asked for direct negotiations w/ the US, but instead we sent 24 long-range bombers to Guam... not a smart move:no:
iraq IS cooperating.. slowly, but they still are. we are giving them a full anal probe, remeber they have a country that needs to get other things done too.